Debate and Discussion

Mental illness...real or fake?
subcultured at 2:42PM, March 25, 2007
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LETS TRY THIS AGAIN…and without the name calling and snide remarks. try to discuss like adults and not like you are talking on x-box live.

has anyone seen the documentary “crumb” about the artist r. crumb. i remember he showed his family and to me it seems like it's plague with a lot of mental illness. crumb was able to express his emotions through his comics and that probably helped to decrease his stress level.

sadly after the documentary was finished his older brother commited suicide. he had long bouts of depresion and was even prescribed antipsychotic medications. So saying things like
Someone
it's PROPAGANDA pure and simple, many of these “sick” people are not victims of OCD or ADD or BD or whatever, they are victims of add campaigns !!!

only endangers those that are suffering from it. of course there are misdiagnosis, but doctors are human too…they're not perfect.

i remember one of crumb's brother was talking about how one night when they were kids he had to fight the urge to get a knife and stab his brothers and sisters in thier sleep. this was a kid that seriously needed help and did not get any help even when he was an adult living out in the streets panhandling.

Robert crumb was one of the lucky ones in that family.
J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:01PM
CorruptComics at 2:47PM, March 25, 2007
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I have not seen it, though your comments have peeked my interest.

Mental illness is real. The profit to be made off mental illness is real as well. But I'm sure a good number of you know someone who is not “normal” because of a disorder that rest of us do not have.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:46AM
Black_Kitty at 3:06PM, March 25, 2007
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I encourage everyone to read the last thread if they've missed the last couple of posts that came in. But either way, please do remain civil. If you can't remain civil, then that should be an indication to yourself that you need to step away from this forum and take a time out.

This was my post from the last thread BTW:

My brother has a mild form of autism. Although he seems to be going along fine now (well, relatively speaking) this was after a rather difficult childhood. Most people though would not know that he's autistic…he may just appear “quirky” or “weird.”

I've heard of worse cases of autism so I've considered my brother's case to be mild. I think the most obvious sign of his autism and one that has affected my family the most is his inability to let go. He hated his elementary school because he saw everybody there as being mean and cruel to him. The kids made fun of him and he felt that the adults didn't do anything to help him. It took four years plus a trespassing charge for him to finally stop obsessing over it and going back to the school to “set things right.” Before that the whole subject of his elementary school was taboo in the family. He dreamt about setting things right. He wanted them to hurt just as much as he did. The problem for him was that everyone else had already moved on but he could not understand why this isn't as big of a deal to them as it is for him.

There are holes in the walls made by him because he missed my face and hit it instead. During a particularly long fight (6+ months) I used to stack things against the door because I was afraid that in the middle of the night, he would wake up and be suddenly seized with the desire to “set things right.”

Thinking back to our childhood, I remember how I used to be so embarrassed by my brother. My mother used to sign us up for Chinese classes together and during one particular class, he was mad at me. I wouldn't acknowledge him in class though so he kept punching and pushing me. The teacher didn't know what to do and my classmates weren't sure either. So we all pretended that my brother was not pushing and punching me while the teacher was teaching about Chinese characters.

My brother will eventually be able to function fine in society. I have no doubt at all that he will one day get a job and be able to live independently. But he will have more difficulties then most people. It will be harder for him to make friends because it will take a certain kind of person to befriend him. And for now, we do not want him to drive a car or anything that could lead to an unfortunate accident that could have been prevented if he didn't get angry and try to “set things right.”

So on one hand, I object to the notion that autism doesn't exist. Because if autism doesn't exist, I would like someone to explain to me what has been going on for the last twenty years.

I also object to the notion that they're just like everyone else only they think differently and that if people would stop making such a big deal, they can function just fine on their own. My family has never given my brother any drugs or counseling when he was younger. In fact, he didn't even know he was autistic until he was older. But if by functioning fine you're talking about functioning like me who doesn't have autism…then no.

Finally, it ticks me off when people think they have autism when really they're just socially awkward. Socially awkward or the inability to socialize well does not mean you have autism. If that's the height of your disorder then you do not know what autism is.

On another note, this is just a reminder that the D&D forum is a very different beast. Sometimes we say things out of the heat of the moment. If you find yourself feeling very angry or frustrated, then it's time for you to take a break. An Internet forum is not worth getting angry about.

So please remain civil and do not resort to calling names.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:24AM
ozoneocean at 3:20PM, March 25, 2007
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Mental Illness is obviously quite real and has been known about for millennia. Most of us have had first hand experience of people with mild to serious cases of it. I know I have, goodness I've even been attacked by “mad” people before. But like everything there are degrees!

You have to realise that there has been a massive increase in the amount of diagnoses of people with some sort of mental illness. Doctors claim hat there aren't more crazy people around, it's just that they've gotten better at their diagnoses techniques. But the case is that a lot of these people that suddenly find themselves falling in the category of mentally ill are only mildly affected by the problems they're apparently supposed to have and mostly managed perfectly ok with before. This is a problem for all of us because mental health facilities and programs set up to deal with and help people with problems are swamped with these mild cases, and often serious sufferers simply can not get the help they need because of it!
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:26PM
Priest_Revan at 3:28PM, March 25, 2007
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Most mental illnesses are real and some aren't.

You have your people who really suffer from it and those who only use pretend to have it so they can get out of being punished (or otherwise).
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last edited on July 14, 2011 2:48PM
Hawk at 3:41PM, March 25, 2007
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I knew a guy in high school with what I guess would be ADHD, but with a slew of other social problems to boot. He was very unpopular, but but that never stopped me from talking to somebody.

One time he asked me, “If you felt like medication you were taking was changing who you were, would you stop taking it?” I told him that I probably would. Now, at the time I was sort of under the idea that Ritalin and ADD were a kind of conspiracy going on, and a lot of peoples' troubles were their own lack of discipline, too often hastily medicated. I soon found out that's not always true.

A few days later I came to school and found the guy literally throwing himself against a brick wall repeatedly. He didn't seem to care what harm we was causing himself, and of course students just stood there and watched like idiots. He calmed down after a few students and I pinned him down.

Only a day later he got the crazy idea to lodge himself in a desk in Algebra class… You know those wire racks under the seat for holding the books? He didn't successfully squeeze himself in there, but he was violently trying. He got sent to the nurse. It turns out he had stopped taking his medication and it was having a dramatic effect on him.

I learned that whether or not Ritalin is a conspiracy, people who are taking it can grow to depend on it. This guy's actions weren't a “lack of discipline”, they were a chemical imbalance. They got him back on his medication and things smoothed out. I don't give medication advice anymore, even casually. I still think there's likely some overmedication going on in this world, but I trust there are enough doctors not taking kickbacks to generally trust their decisions.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:45PM
ozoneocean at 4:00PM, March 25, 2007
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That's an interesting case Hawk, it reminds me of some of the things I've read about…
There is thought that some doctors are mistaking symptoms (because many of them are very similar), and misdiagnosing children with the wrong conditions, and therefore giving them the incorrect medication which can cause psychotic episodes or suicide. There's also some thought that giving a child psychotropic medication (that is intended for adults) before they're fully developed can cause and exacerbate harm rather than relieve it, much like cannabis worsens schizophrenia and can even apparently induce it if children who're prone to the condition use cannabis excessively.

But you're right, it's not up to the average Joe to dispense medical advice! Discussing it is alright though. :)
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:26PM
Aurora Moon at 4:08PM, March 25, 2007
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I do believe that there are such things as disorders and Mental illnesses. But before anybody gets on to me about what I said in the other thread, just let me make one thing clear:

I was basically objecting to the fact that a lot of people tends to generalize and classify all the disorders and mental illnesses as something severe in one fell swoop, and treat people with certain types of disorders as compete dimwits who can't take care of themselves.

So my posts in the other thread was basically just an protest at the idea that ALL people with disorders and other disabilities needed medical attention and or help.

That kind of faulty logic has gotten a lot of parents with children out there or even the people with disorders out there rushing to medical faculties and swamping the doctors/experts with their so-called “troubles” such as “Omg!! my child easily gets too bored in class and won't work on his schoolwork then!”..
that effectively causes a lot of people with the more serious problems to not have the help they need. Ozoneocean already said the same thing more or less though.

so I was simply stating that not all people with disorders need the medicine or the help.

There are plenty of people out there with mild disorders who can control the problems associated with their disorders by will and thought alone, and can just live on their own without the care of other people.


Think of it as like an meter.. like this:

Extreme
^
|
|
|
Moderate
|
|
|
\/
Mild


people who only has mild effects of their own disorders is on the bottom for an reason. It's because they can easily control themselves, can care care of themsleves… get a Job and all that. They don't have violent outlash as such as wanting to cause harm to others. As such, pills designed to control the side effects but not curing the disorder would only cause to dope those people up, and render them virtually useless in the society that they're trying to be a part of.

BK mentioned her brother… and actually called the actions of her brother as an result of an “Mild” disorder. to me it sounds like it's more in the Moderate area than an “mild” disorder.
people who has outbursts and anger issues as an result of an disorder is not “mild”.
Those people who has an disorder that clearly affects them in such a way surely needs therapy and help on learning how to control such a thing… although I'm still unsure if at this level they need pills at all.

rather simply… I believe that pills and other chemicals should be only used as an LAST RESORT… because while it may get the disorders to an very manageable level, it also leaves the people with the disorder rather doped up and unable to think clearly on their own.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:10AM
subcultured at 4:18PM, March 25, 2007
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i've done a few clinicals with mentally ill individuals and i find that pills with some type of psychiatry like a group session tends to keep people balance. but to get them to a level in which they aren't trying to stick themselves on every hole they see…you gotta give them thier medications to calm them down.

I observed a group therapy in which some individuals stated that without the group and being able to talk about thier problems they would fall apart even with the pills. human beings are social animals, just being around people with the people with the same type of afflictions helps to steady them.
J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:01PM
MagickLorelai at 4:26PM, March 25, 2007
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Mental illness is real. Like a bunch of people have been saying, there are various degrees, and the people who fake it or self-diagnose themselves make it worse for those with a real problem to be taken seriously.

I suffer from….something. Last I was diagnosed, it was depression. It's a mental illness, and not a social/everyday thing; it's the clinical kind. I know it's an illness, because there will be days where, for no reason AT ALL, I feel as miserable as if someone very close to me had died. There's nothing I can do to change how I feel, except go out for a walk or just sit and cry for a while. (I suppose I could take medication, but it wasn't very effective with me and, frankly, I've done a lot more on my own than I did with medication).

Fortunately, I ONLY have clinical depression. I can't imagine losing the perception of reality that I have.

last edited on July 14, 2011 1:50PM
Black_Kitty at 4:42PM, March 25, 2007
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Aurora Moon
BK mentioned her brother… and actually called the actions of her brother as an result of an “Mild” disorder. to me it sounds like it's more in the Moderate area than an “mild” disorder.
people who has outbursts and anger issues as an result of an disorder is not “mild”.
Those people who has an disorder that clearly affects them in such a way surely needs therapy and help on learning how to control such a thing… although I'm still unsure if at this level they need pills at all.

Personally I think it's mild but you could be right. I'm no medical expert. ^^;;; I think the bottomline for me is that it could be worse. I've heard of people who have autistic siblings that won't recognize them or would have very frequent violent outbursts.

I personally don't think he needs any medication. Therapy or counseling would be good for him but he has to be willing to go first. Recently he has been going to the Geneva Centre and this was an idea he thought of all by himself.

Mind you, I'm not sure what he's doing when he goes there exactly. He mentioned that he talks to someone there which is good. I think that's what my brother really needs; someone to talk to who isn't a family member. It's as Subcultured said, human beings are social animals. My brother needs to socialize.

I don't normally talk about my brother extensively so I feel a bit weird doing so. I just want to say though that despite me talking about the bad incidents involving my brother, he's actually a nice guy. He works really hard and is a straight arrow. I know no one suggested otherwise but things on the Internet are not as temporary as everyone likes to think. Should anyone ever read about my brother, I want it known that he's not some crazed loon that punches holes in walls. He just doesn't function like everyone else.

[Edit: As a side note, The Chelation Kid is a good comic about an autistic boy and his family. Since the topic of autism came up, I figure I'll take this time to recommend it. :)]
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:24AM
Alexis at 8:10PM, March 25, 2007
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Insert Tom Cruise joke here.
last edited on July 14, 2011 10:49AM
Roguehill at 7:01AM, March 26, 2007
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I think that as public awareness of a topic grows, people have the tendency to try to label their own behavior as an illness. “Oh my God…what if I'm schizophrenic!” It really comes from an increased awareness without an increased understanding. If you watch films from the early 1950's you'll see lots and lots of movies about psychological horror, simply because the idea was new at the time.

I lived with someone who has a schizophrenic son. He just hit 18 and one day lost his ability to sleep and started to believe friends were hiding out in his dresser drawers. (It's a thought disorder, not multiple-personality disorder, by the way). With drugs, he was simply unsocial and lethargic. Without drugs, he was manic and raving.

We live with all kinds of behavior disorders (just about everyone, I think), but a physical imbalance that needs medical treatment is true mental illness. Disorders can be counseled and illnesses must be treated. A big complication in our society is that in search of the “quick fix” medication instead of talking out the big problems and doing the work.

GHOST ZERO
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:09PM
ccs1989 at 2:17PM, March 26, 2007
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Is this seriously a topic? “Is Mental Illness Real”?

What, do some people think that schitzophrenics get their disorder for fun?

I understand if this topic was “Does ADHD Exist”? Becuase that's a disorder with a lot of problems behind it. It CAN be misused in the right person's hand to be able to justify their lazyness or outbursts in the short term. However I do believe that if drugs perscribed can help these individuals focus more and control themselves better, then they should be perscribed. As long as there are no harmful side effects of course.

If there is a chemical imbalance in the brain and that causes an individual to act differently than normal, then that is a mental illness. I don't see how people can argue that studied chemical imbalances don't exist. Unless there's some sort of conspiracy theory going on here that argues that people are using ridilin to make kids grow up to vote a certain way…?
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:38AM
Phantom Penguin at 6:34PM, March 26, 2007
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Its very real. But the real question is how do you get rid of it? Heavy medication isn't a cure at all. And doctors seem to just throw pills at everything.

I've been told i had PTSD but i never take anything for it
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:42PM
subcultured at 6:48PM, March 26, 2007
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have you seen “harsh times” with christian bale?
that's some major PTSD. guy comes back from middle east and starts to unhinge in font of his friends.

bale is a great actor


first part may NSFW

J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:01PM
Phantom Penguin at 7:18PM, March 26, 2007
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Ok wow. I've never seen anyone that bad before.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:42PM
nighthawk41 at 8:08PM, March 26, 2007
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Phantom Penguin
Its very real. But the real question is how do you get rid of it? Heavy medication isn't a cure at all. And doctors seem to just throw pills at everything.

I've been told i had PTSD but i never take anything for it
Well I'm pretty much getting rid of my Asperger just by controlling myself. That may not work for every disorder though.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 2:16PM
reconjsh at 8:54PM, March 26, 2007
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nighthawk41
Phantom Penguin
Its very real. But the real question is how do you get rid of it? Heavy medication isn't a cure at all. And doctors seem to just throw pills at everything.

I've been told i had PTSD but i never take anything for it
Well I'm pretty much getting rid of my Asperger just by controlling myself. That may not work for every disorder though.
I'm told that one certainty about the bipolar II disorder (which I have), is that it eventually becomes bipolar I. And the only way to sucessfully delay/prevent that is to medicate it.

There's plenty that self-managment and regular psychiartrist/psychologist vists can do (and have done for me) as well… but ultimately, a chemical imbalance like bipolar needs to be treated with medications in addition to the other things (but only in addition, I think).

I hate medication though… it makes me feel like I'm not me… in a very real, tangiable way. It's like I'm me, but only in memory, viewing myself as I do non-me things. Of course, it makes alot of the things that suck about being bipolar go away… so… medicating wins. But, if this was all fake and/or just made up, I promise you that I'd know it… because I have done and will do almost anything to get off meds.

Although I agree that there is an obvious abuse of diagnosing mental conditions and that people are victims of “disorder marketing” or the like, to say that mental illness is “fake” is just upsurd… to me and my first hand experience, that is.

And if you think it is all fake, then I hope you get the “privelage” of living with some of the terrifying things that I have to every day. If you want to know, feel free to ask.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:02PM
subcultured at 9:14PM, March 26, 2007
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i agree, if it's a chemical imbalance you have to treat it with medication. it's like bieng drunk, you can't WILL yourself sober.
J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:01PM
Aurora Moon at 10:59PM, March 26, 2007
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subcultured
i agree, if it's a chemical imbalance you have to treat it with medication. it's like bieng drunk, you can't WILL yourself sober.

being drunk was an poor example in comparasion to chemical imbalances that causes mental illnesses.

the difference is that being drunk wears off, and you're back to normal. and plus there are ways you can do to stop being drink. like drinking plenty of water and then going to the bathroom to clear your system of it… also works in reducing hangovers.

an chemical inbalance is more different. can't just drink water and it'll go away.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:10AM
ozoneocean at 4:36AM, March 27, 2007
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Aurora Sub is describing the state rather than the process: how you are at the point of being drunk, rather than the act of drinking to cause inebriation, so it's not such a bad example.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:26PM
reconjsh at 8:57AM, March 27, 2007
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ozoneocean
Aurora Sub is describing the state rather than the process: how you are at the point of being drunk, rather than the act of drinking to cause inebriation, so it's not such a bad example.
I thought sub's analogy was fine too.

But, if want a better one… how about being blonde? Being blonde is a product of body chemicals telling hair to grow a certain color. You can't just will yourself brunette…

Or are you going to rip that analogy apart because hair is external and the brain is internal? sigh.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:02PM
ozoneocean at 9:40AM, March 27, 2007
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Haha! Going a bit too deep into analogy territory here ^_^

Besides, if you suffer mental illness you often do not even realise it. It's usually only those around you that can tell that you're behaving strangely… You don't just wake up one day and think “I'm totally crazy!”. You're mad because you think that mad thoughts and ideas are plausible and ordinary: You are normal, it's those around you who have something wrong with them… That doesn't fit in so much with milder forms of depression, but certainly the manic/depressive sort.

And as to the idea of “willing” yourself to do this or that, well it's a nice analogy but not entirely correct because “mental illness” is NOT just about brain chemistry, as far as we know. Or rather, brain chemistry isn't always central, it can often be a biproduct of certain processes and not the cause. I'm sorry but from everything I've heard about the different forms of mental disturbance, it seems we just don't know all the ins and outs of it… There are pills and treatments for some things and not for others and the same treatments and chemicals don't work the same for everyone, even with the same problems.

Like everything else in the world, its not just one big easily defined thing that you can just take the right pills for or get a brain scan and find out exactly what's wrong. You can for some things, but not the rest.

So what's the point of this discussion then? Really?
Very few people do not believe that mental illnesses exist, apart from Tom Cruise and his Scientologist wackos… People like Lothar simply dispute the veracity of all the over diagnosed cases of the new faddish problems, which is fair enough because it is part of a big business and such things wouldn't have been considered as mental illnesses 50 or 60 years ago… So is the point of this discussion then to say that if schizophrenia and senile dementia exist then that logically means that everything else that people consider a mental problem must also exist and be regarded with the same seriousness? If so then this is a silly discussion.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:26PM
Custard Trout at 12:02PM, March 27, 2007
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Am I right in assuming this is the spawn of my ‘Asperger’s Syndrome' thread? I feel that the point of that has been completely missed. That seems to happen a lot.

Yeah, as you may have gathered by now, I have Asperger's Syndrome, it's not really a disorder as such, but it has had a rather drastic effect on my life, although it is kind of subtle. I don't take any medication for it and like nighthawk41 said, as long as I may attention, I can control it, the best part of it is I can still keep hold of the beneficial effects.

But mental illness is very real, and it has varying effects. Everything else I could really say has already been said, so I won't bother.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:59AM
WingNut at 1:27PM, March 27, 2007
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I agree with Oz on this one. It seems that most of us agree that mental illnesses are real, we only differ in our opinion of the varying degrees of it. It's true, it has been taken advantage of by people, it's been abused, making it difficult for those who need help to obtain it, but I believe that it's just overblown. Most people, if the chemical imbalance is such, can obtain the necessary help.

What else are we debating?

-W
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:50PM
reconjsh at 2:57PM, March 27, 2007
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I think we're debating whether or not as many people who get diagnosed with mental disorders… like depression… are really mentally ill… or perhaps just sad.

But, seeing that everyone pretty much agrees… we're probably just discussing and not debating :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:02PM
skoolmunkee at 4:04PM, March 27, 2007
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The fairly sad thing is that people who are mis-diagnosed or over-diagnosed do need SOME kind of help… but they aren't usually getting the kind of help they need.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 3:39PM

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