Debate and Discussion

Misogyny, Misandry, Feminism, Gender politics, Men's rights, Women's rights! Who's right?
ozoneocean at 11:27PM, Oct. 23, 2006
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Talk about gender issues here.
Should society have a say about what people can and can not solely based on their gender? Like what they wear, what jobs they can do, weather get custody of their children, weather they can fight in a war, weather they can sell their bodies for sex, weather they can adopt children?
Whatever, there are lots of things to consider… Should religion have a say on how we run our lives and define ourselves as men and women, girls and boys?
Have women's rights ‘gone to far’ and are men now being unequally treated in some arenas?
Have women's rights gone far enough? Are we even close to true equality?
Does equality of the sexes really matter anyway, since there are real differences between us? How much do those differences even matter?
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:24PM
Rich at 7:53AM, Oct. 24, 2006
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Someone
Talk about gender issues here.

Ok.

Someone
Should society have a say about what people can and can not solely based on their gender?

No, it shouldn't.

Someone
Like what they wear, what jobs they can do, weather get custody of their children, weather they can fight in a war, weather they can sell their bodies for sex, weather they can adopt children?

Men and women can do most everything equally, and therefore should be treated the same. Same goes for selling their bodies for sex. Men and women who prostitute themselves are equally as pathetic and are inferior to the standard human being.

Someone
Whatever, there are lots of things to consider… Should religion have a say on how we run our lives and define ourselves as men and women, girls and boys?

I've always felt that if a religion hindered anyone's ability to be themselves or how they run their lives, it is clearly overstepping it's boundaries. Religions that restrict people are nothing more than cults. Tell me whatever you want, but it's the truth.

Someone
Have women's rights ‘gone to far’ and are men now being unequally treated in some arenas?

This can be argued either way. As far as I can tell, they have gone plenty far, but could still go a bit further. Women should be eligible for things like the military draft and the infantry just as much as men are. If we can go get shot up for our country, so can they.

Someone
Have women's rights gone far enough? Are we even close to true equality?

We will never see ‘true’ equality. There will always be an asshole that will keep one group from progressing forward. ALWAYS! It's just part of human nature.

Someone
Does equality of the sexes really matter anyway, since there are real differences between us? How much do those differences even matter?

Equality does matter, because at the basic level, men and women are the same. Sure we have a slightly different genetic makeup, and different genitals, but those can be overlooked for the most part. A human being is defined not by what they have, but what they do with themselves.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:06PM
MagickLorelai at 1:31PM, Oct. 24, 2006
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I am a feminist. A TRUE feminist; I seek EQUALITY between genders. I don't mean women get to do what they want and slap men for gawking when they choose to dress provocatively. I despise that nonsensical behavior and know it sets women back SO much, in terms of being treated as equals.

My views on what gender roles should be are probably a bit skewed because of my own experiences. I've never been the archtype of either beauty or even moderate femininity for women. I've never been compelled to dress “like everyone else”. (My wardrobe consists of pants, long shin-length skirts, and tee-shirts. That's IT. Oh, and a few long-skirted conservative dresses). So I can't imagine, for the LIFE of me, why girls stand out in 10 degree weather in a heavy coat unzipped to reveal cleavage and miniskirts, shivering and whining about how COOOOOLD it is!

Women deserve equal pay. I remember reading in an article once about how women, taught to never appear as a “bitch”, accept the lower pay and don't ask for higher(or don't push for it). There IS an unfortunate double-standard that goes on in our culture: Unless a woman is quiet, conservative, compliant, and “nurturing”, she's a slutty bitch out only for herself. I wouldn't be surprised if women, in response to this, decide that “Well, if I'm going to be called a slutty bitch, I may as well BE one…” Regardless, it seems like a guy can roll out of bed and walk out the door in the morning, while women need hours to prepare herself to look good for the day. If she doesn't, she's accused of “not taking care of herself”. Maybe not by everyone, but I've seen it often enough that it makes me sick.

I don't agree with the oversexualization with CHILDREN, or really, anyone under the age of 18. Still, I don't think that sexuality is a BAD thing. That kind of mindset is a throwback to puritannical times. Women who are 18 and over, I don't care how they dress. If they dress in such a way as to draw sexual attention, though, I will personally smack them if they throw a fit at some guy staring at them. If ANYONE has a lot of sex, I don't care. GOOD FOR THEM. ^^ If they make sure to take the proper precautions, and know what they're doing, then I have no problem with their choice.

I guess I'm kinda rambling. Women, unfortunately, have horrible role models nowadays. There are good ones, but they're not as easily found, because the media focuses on the “eyegrabbing”.

…I say Good Ol'Victoria be brought back, and women be forced to dress with high collars and floorlength skirts. Maybe appreciate conservative outfits more. v.v(I'm joking).

last edited on July 14, 2011 1:50PM
Darth Mongoose at 2:54PM, Oct. 24, 2006
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I agree with the idea of men and women being equal. As a feminist myself, I find it really irritating when people assume feminism is all about women who think they're better than men. True feminists simply believe in equality.
I'm not, however, able to agree on the whole ‘sexualisation under 18 is bad’ thing on the grounds that here in England, you can have sex at sixteen, and get married. You're making the mistake of assuming that your culture is universal. Though I do feel that children should be educated responsibly, my grandparents' generation could leave school and start work at 14. The age at which adulthood begins in legal terms isn't nessesarily the same as the age at which a person is able to think and make decisions as an adult. In Japan, for example, you're not ‘of age’ until you're 20. Some people can actually make sensible life decisions in their teens, and a 16 year old is, in most cases, physically an adult. Personally I've found that most people aren't able to think like adults until they're well into their twenties, but you can't keep calling them children until then.
Another flaw in feminism is to believe that men and women are ‘the same’. I disagree with this. Men and women are of equal value, yes, and if doing the same job, they should be paid the same for their work, naturally, but you can't just ignore the psychological and physical differences between men and women. Men and women think differently and feel differently, have different capabilities. It would be wrong to try to force everybody to do the same jobs and live the same lifestyle. In the end, it really comes down with not forcing people into roles, but not trying to force them out of them either. Though I'm a girl who wears jeans and plays video games with the guys and is studying for a degree, it doesn't mean I think it's shameful to be a girl who wears frilly dresses and just wants to raise a family at home. If I were to go out and preach to all the women that they shouldn't be home-makers, and should go and get careers, I'd be just as bad as people who tell women that thei place is the kitchen and all that crap. A woman's place, just like a man's, is wherever she wants it to be.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:08PM
kyupol at 5:56PM, Oct. 24, 2006
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Someone
Talk about gender issues here
Should society have a say about what people can and can not solely based on their gender?

No.


Someone
Like what they wear, what jobs they can do, weather get custody of their children, weather they can fight in a war, weather they can sell their bodies for sex, weather they can adopt children?

It isnt all about gender but there are other factors here. Like physical strength, determination, inclination to do something, criminal record, etc…

For instance, lets say we have a construction profession. 95% of construction workers are men. No matter what incentives the government will do to get more women into construction, it will ALWAYS be male-dominated. Why? Because construction is using more of your brain and your hands. You are always in awkward positions, and strength and stamina are factors here. If you're physically fit and able to do the job, why not? just do it. I have nothing against amazon-body females who get into construction… because they CAN do the job since they are the exception of physical strength among women.

And most women… are obsessed with being as thin as possible… and they fear developing muscles and getting bigger bodies… are less likely to be inclined to WANT TO work in construction. Like at a department store I worked at… I had a female co-worker… and I told her that her muscles are getting larger and I better not mess with her or I get my ass kicked, etc… etc… She panicked and looked at the mirror to see if she is getting larger. lol. The look on her face.

While men on the other hand are obsessed with getting bigger bodies. I know this guy who has a well-proportioned body and is slightly stronger than me… but he still thinks he is a skinny wuss and is obsessed with working out and gaining weight.

In another job setting, lets say office work. Its more typing, filing, answering telephones, and other administrative duties… which is physically easier.

http://www1.on.hrdc-drhc.gc.ca/ojf.jsp?lang=e§ion=Profile&noc=1411

Are there ANY government drives to get more MEN into office work?


Someone
Whatever, there are lots of things to consider… Should religion have a say on how we run our lives and define ourselves as men and women, girls and boys?

It depends. Religions have set rules… do this, do that will either give you heaven or hell.

Religion was originally invented in order to put ORDER on the human race. Or else, we'd be running around fighting over scraps of meat and constantly violating other people. Murders, rapes, thefts, and all other evils will be unleashed upon this world without religion. Hell will descend upon this world. Imagine a place where there is complete chaos.

Religion also has its evil side if it goes TOO MUCH. Look at the Taliban where women were TRULY oppressed. Look at medieval Europe where the church had so much power that they dictated everything and amassed huge amounts of wealth. While at the same time, controlling the masses and manipulating them with threats of their soul will go to hell or else.


Have women's rights ‘gone to far’ and are men now being unequally treated in some arenas?

Women are actually treated as a higher form of human than men.

There are more support groups and funding for all women-related things. I've once checked the local yellow pages since one time, there was a looming threat of me possibly being in the fucking streets. I looked for emergency shelters and spoke to them… and there are MORE women's shelters. Why is that? There are only one or two men's shelters and most of the shelters that allow men into them are either for under 20s or co-ed facilities. Why is that?

Breast cancer gets more funding than prostate cancer.

Divorce court ends up more in the favour of women than men.

Some little “sexual harrassment” claim by a psycho-skank can get men into trouble. I almost got suspended cuz of one of those. I eventually got off the hook but fuck!!! Thats just blackmail and harrassment. I did a counter-complaint to the “college police” and it just got dismissed.

Women get more scholarships and get more perks just to encourage them to go to school or get into certain professions.

Women get a special day that is “violence against women” day or somethin like that. Is there any “violence against men” day? Why not “MARCH AGAINST VIOLENCE” instead and lets all be peace-makers? LOVE AND PEACE!!!

In the name of “political correctness”, we create a favoured class. Why is that? Why do we set back the clock 100 years in the other direction? True progress equals equality… TRUE equality.

And yet these feminazis and manginas still whine that they are suffering this and that. They're even worse than emos… since at least emos whine about their lives and mutilate themselves but they do not try to manipulate the government and assert control over the entire population.


Have women's rights gone far enough? Are we even close to true equality?

They've gone farther than enough. What about men's rights?

Does equality of the sexes really matter anyway, since there are real differences between us? How much do those differences even matter?

yes. we are all human beings and all human beings regardless of gender, race, creed, religion, etc… are supposed to be treated with respect and equality.
NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:25PM
yeahduff at 8:54PM, Oct. 24, 2006
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Christ.

You looked in the yellow pages and found a lot of women's shelters. And that makes you oppressed. Right.

I'm sure it was tough for you on the streets, but it's a whole hell of a lot tougher for a woman. Women are far more likely to be perceived as weak, are far more likely to be raped, are far more likely to be forced into prostitution, far more likely to be assaulted, far more likely to be kidnapped, far more likely to be killed. There are more women's shelters because women need more help.

As for the rest of your laundry list, take a look around. More support is drummed up for breast cancer than prostate cancer quite simply because women go out drumming up support for breast cancer. If prostate cancer really bothers you that much, start pressing the flesh. Be the change you wanna see in the world.

Sexual harrassment is real, and it still happens. Have any idea what the workplace was like for women before sexual harrassment lawsuits took prominence? You'd probably thank god for your penis if you did.

Violence against women quite simply is a persisting problem. What is it, one in five women who will be raped in their lifetime? Throw in domestic violence and random women targeted for being women, well, sounds like a reason to have a few support groups. Do you feel helpless when you walk the streets at night? Do you have a serious fear of being raped?

Men's rights? Is that a joke? Men run everything. This world is designed by and for men. Things are being corrected now, and yes, some boundaries have been overstepped. But quit kidding yourself. It's far easier to be a man in this world.

You got the world, kid, and look who's whining.

Rich
Men and women can do most everything equally, and therefore should be treated the same. Same goes for selling their bodies for sex. Men and women who prostitute themselves are equally as pathetic and are inferior to the standard human being.

Please. They're human beings like anyone else. You act like they do it as a personal affront on you.

Darth Mongoose
I agree with the idea of men and women being equal. As a feminist myself, I find it really irritating when people assume feminism is all about women who think they're better than men. True feminists simply believe in equality.
I'm not, however, able to agree on the whole ‘sexualisation under 18 is bad’ thing on the grounds that here in England, you can have sex at sixteen, and get married. You're making the mistake of assuming that your culture is universal. Though I do feel that children should be educated responsibly, my grandparents' generation could leave school and start work at 14. The age at which adulthood begins in legal terms isn't nessesarily the same as the age at which a person is able to think and make decisions as an adult. In Japan, for example, you're not ‘of age’ until you're 20. Some people can actually make sensible life decisions in their teens, and a 16 year old is, in most cases, physically an adult. Personally I've found that most people aren't able to think like adults until they're well into their twenties, but you can't keep calling them children until then.
Another flaw in feminism is to believe that men and women are ‘the same’. I disagree with this. Men and women are of equal value, yes, and if doing the same job, they should be paid the same for their work, naturally, but you can't just ignore the psychological and physical differences between men and women. Men and women think differently and feel differently, have different capabilities. It would be wrong to try to force everybody to do the same jobs and live the same lifestyle. In the end, it really comes down with not forcing people into roles, but not trying to force them out of them either. Though I'm a girl who wears jeans and plays video games with the guys and is studying for a degree, it doesn't mean I think it's shameful to be a girl who wears frilly dresses and just wants to raise a family at home. If I were to go out and preach to all the women that they shouldn't be home-makers, and should go and get careers, I'd be just as bad as people who tell women that thei place is the kitchen and all that crap. A woman's place, just like a man's, is wherever she wants it to be.

Ah, sanity.
Get yourself a lawyer and a gun.


last edited on July 14, 2011 4:53PM
Aussie_kid at 10:06PM, Oct. 24, 2006
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Alright, let's see how many of the female population I can piss off.



Any one who used to watch ‘Every body Loves Raymond’ will remember Deborah. A housewife with control issues. Reatedly she would complain to Raymond how he never helped out around the house. His mother's doing it for him and he's working, why should he have to? The definition of a homemaker is ‘The parent who choses to be unemployed so they may focus their efforts in order to assure that the home is able to keep order’.

Here's my view. If you are a homemaker, you should do your friggin' job. You can take breaks as you wish and can't get fired. If the job gets done, why should the other parent take up the slack for you? Yes, I believe breaks are acceptable and that once in a while the other parent should take up some of the responsibility, but it's your job. The other one should be at work and not returning until they've made enough money to support the family (Unless, of course, they don't pay extra for overtime)

Note that I am not saying ‘The woman’ or ‘the man’ in my example of a single income family with two parents. I believe women can be the breadwinners just like the men can be homemakers (And, of course, vice versa). I'm just saying that homemakers who complain about their job (Which I do understand is hard) have to realise that they picked that career (If they did) and have to live with it unless they get another one.



My second issue. Going too far

I understand harrassment lawsuits, be they sexual or otherwise. This I find acceptable to complain against. However, it has gone too far. Feminists have declared that calling a woman by her first name is deemed as offensive. What's the point of having a first name if no one's going to call you it. I see calling some one their first name as a sign of friendliness, like opening the door for some one, a handshake or even a smile and a nod.

Next, I bring you to an episode of The Simpsons. When the boys and girls are split into different classes, the girls don't do any study. The teacher's belief is that is ‘a man’s way of doing things'. Okay, maybe so, but how else do you learn? In my sister's class last year, this was the teacher's methods. The entire class failed and the teacher got promoted after playing the gender card



Another issue. Men are evil. Right out I have heard this. I got into an arguement with a girl who was talking to us boys about why we should respect women. When she got up to the part about why we should never call a female by her first name, I just had to put my hand up. I plainly stated my side of the debate, saying why I disagreed with her and then she was screaming at me violently. I tried to reason with her, when I got the ‘Men are evil’ comment, along with offers to castrate any one ‘wo had enough brain cells to know she was right’.

She wasn't right and she wasn't wrong with the stuff she was saying before then, but her views were just too over the line for my liking



I'm not saying men are perfect or women are perfect or whatever. I'm saying we both have our faults. I respect equal rights and I respect liberation, but I'm saying there are boundaries to what you should do
Insanity Complex: We may not be insane, but we like to think we are
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:11AM
Rich at 10:51PM, Oct. 24, 2006
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yeahduff
Feminazi propaganda

Gee, certainly you never considered how fucking hard it is for men to find jobs. Do you have any clue how many jobs I've been turned down for all because I am a guy? Speak all you want about men running everything, but anyone who's dealt with the western Pennsylvania job market will tell you that's bullshit.

And the whole thing of “but wymin ar always teh victim!” is total bullshit. Have you ever studied abuse that goes on to the men in relationships? It's far more prevalent, and far more common than women getting abused. The problem is that it is almost never reported because of the shame the men feel for being abused by a woman.

Same thing goes for women raping men. It IS possible and DOES happen and is almost never reported. Again, this is mainly because of shame and society issues more than anything, but it is far more common than you may think. Hell, it even happened to a relative of mine a short while back. And do you know what happens to men who report it?

“Did you enjoy it?”
“Come on dude, give us the details!”
“What? You didn't like it? You must be a fag!”

Comments like that. People don't want to admit that it is a possibility and is very common.

yeahduff
Rich
Men and women can do most everything equally, and therefore should be treated the same. Same goes for selling their bodies for sex. Men and women who prostitute themselves are equally as pathetic and are inferior to the standard human being.

Please. They're human beings like anyone else. You act like they do it as a personal affront on you.

My apologies, but I am disgusted by people who lower themselves to selling their bodies on the streets. I do not care what the reason is, but doing so violates all human dignity those people had. Lowering themselves that far makes them nothing more than subhuman in my eyes.

Aussie_kid
A whole buncha stuff

It's nice to see that I'm not the only one who refuses to bow down to feminazi propaganda.

As a small side-note, I don't consider feminists and feminazis to be the same people. They are far different and desire different results.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:06PM
SheaSummers at 10:53PM, Oct. 24, 2006
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Men have more right in some ways and women do in others.

Men still make more money and get these high paying jobs and promotions and stuff that women who work just as hard deserve. The difference between them earning it isn't a penis though, it's probably better networking. I don't know if I heard this on the news or some random tv show, but I thought about it and it's true. If the boss is a male, he will more likely bond with his male employees more and give them a promotion since he will know them that much better through bonding. If a woman can use her charm or something else to get the boss's attention, she will probably get the promotion.

I worked for a female employer before. She did prefer women employees to get the promotions because they got along better and talked more. I think it's the old “Dicks before chicks” rule, and even though it's not right, it happens.

Another thing, how come women want to get into colleges that only take men, but men can't do the same? Women say that the men's colleges are discriminating, but they say that what they do in women's colleges is fine… hmmm, doesn't sound very fair, does it?

I think last week, a judge said that a women who exposed herself to a boy didn't do anything wrong because that kind of stuff only refers to men. What the heck?!

Other than those… I can't think up any other specific examples. Meh.

Men do a solid grip on pretty much everything else…

I don't think equality of the genders can really exist. Men and women expect different things from the same situations and until there can be a compromise, one gender will always cry foul over the other's “advantages”.

As for a homemaker… my fiance and I have agreed that I will be the stay at home dad. I do CD covers and posters for people right now, and I hope to expand that. My job has always been on the computer, while she is training to be a Chef. I always do the dishes and clean and organize stuff anyway, and I am happy with what I do to help out because I know she's pretty damn tired when she comes home from work. I damn well agree with you about the homemaker statement, I like being able to wash the dishes whenever before she comes home. I like being able to sweep and then take a break watching cartoons and stuff and then continue! Heck, she makes more money then me and I am fine because I like the fact that I can draw as my job and I am helping her out with my other time. Honestly, couldn't be happier!

Is that really true? It's wrong for a man to call a woman by her first name these days? Haha, wow… *sigh*
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:33PM
Rich at 11:03PM, Oct. 24, 2006
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SheaSummers
Is that really true? It's wrong for a man to call a woman by her first name these days? Haha, wow… *sigh*

That must be something REALLY new, because I've never heard of it before. Maybe all us men should be asking to be referred to as our last names just to see what happens…
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:06PM
skoolmunkee at 12:23AM, Oct. 25, 2006
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SheaSummers
Is that really true? It's wrong for a man to call a woman by her first name these days? Haha, wow… *sigh*

I think it is more of an issue of a person being called by a name they don't want to be called, and people making a big deal out of it because that person is a woman.

If, in the workplace, you prefer to be called Mr. Summers by most people you meet, and everyone calls you Shea anyway, wouldn't you get annoyed? Maybe you want to maintain the level of professionalism that “Mr. Summers” has over “Shea”. You don't go to your doctor, lawyer, etc and call them “Bob” and “Bill” - they are Dr. Smith and Mr. Tate.

Being called the name you want to be called as is a form of power - if people insist on using a name that you DON'T want to be called, they're taking that power away from you and, in a way, disrespecting you. I imagine we just hear about it from women because, perhaps, it's easier to assume that women will be friendly and familiar and you can call them by their first name.

Even take a show like CSI Miami - the male characters are known by their last names (Delco, Wolfe, Caine) and the women are known by their first names (Calleigh, Natalia).


As for feminism, I hope everyone knows there is a range. :) They will all try to call themselves TRUE feminists, but they all have different viewpoints and agendas. There are Marxist Feminists, etc. A lot of the differences are based on their perceptions of where the problems are and how proactive they should be. (Arguing for special treatment to “breach the gap” or make up for institutionalized inequalities, vs. pushing for simply equal treatment, vs. pushing for female-only arenas… etc.) Many of the more “militant” feminists (I simply hate the term “feminazi”) will understand that the moderate feminists will simply want equality, but will argue that sitting around hoping that will happen WON'T make it happen- that they NEED to push for things and force the balance the other way, and make women a group to be considered in serious terms.

I don't have anything against women-only groups, shelters, schools, etc. If they are private they can cater to whatever membership they want. I also don't have anything against male- or female-dominated industries. Just because there are fewer men in nursing doesn't make nursing less of a profession, if they are competent nurses who cares if they are men or women? That said, there is condescension (spelling T_T) toward many ‘female’ professions - but you know what? A nurse ISN'T a doctor, I don't care if they're a man or a woman. If there's a professional opinion to be had I will want a doctor's. A daycare worker IS kind of just a larger-scale babysitter, if you want to be a ‘childcare professional’ go get yourself a child psychology degree or something. The same goes for male professions - construction workers are important, but they aren't architects. If I want an opinion about a skyscraper's structural integrity I'm going to ask the architect.

I do disagree with differentiated hiring practices, for anyone - police exams that require a lower score for women and minorities to pass only creates a less capable police force, for example. That's like making male doctors get 100% on their exams but women only need 80% - if something like that happened, that discredits all female doctors and makes them look less competent as a whole. Yet that kind of thing happens all the time in some other professions.

I don't think what people in this thread are calling ‘true equality’ will ever happen. We can push for things like same pay for same jobs, but most male industries are going to stay male, most females will still get hired for customer service positions, etc. I don't think there's anything wrong with that really - there are reasons women are hired for the welcoming, helping, comforting jobs (for the most part, people see women as more welcoming, helpful, and comforting) … yes it's probably a cycle that feeds itself. If any person wants a more prestigious or higher-paying job, they should go for it. People pick on women's industries as the low point on the ladder, but I'd much rather be a poorly-paid office assitant than a highly-paid garbageman (garbageperson).
  IT'S OLD BATMAN
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:39PM
MagickLorelai at 7:33AM, Oct. 25, 2006
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First, I didn't think that my idea of “18 and up” was universal, I just happen to feel that way. I agree that 16 isn't taht bad, but seems a bit young to me(maybe because that's how I was brought up).

It's not “Feminazi propoganda” to say things are harder on women in CERTAIN respects. Oh yes, a lot of women take it too far. A lot of women are bitches. They treat men like crap and then whine that they can't find a decent guy. They toy around with emotions, thinking that guys can't have them. They abuse, and even rape men, and get away with it because of the belief that women “just don't do” those things, or that men would never turn down or dislike sex. I HATE that anyone who hears “feminism” now associates it with women like that, who are taking advantage of what their mothers rioted and protested and rallied and whatnot for.

Women are seen as more weak, subconsciously or not. There is pressure for a woman to look as weak and waifish as possible, hence the thin-as-a-twig fad. Women may be putting the pressure on themselves to be thin, but that stress comes from the idea that men want someone small and skinny that they can protect. If they don't look weak, there's automatically a perception that they might be not just self-assured, but a bitch. Any measure of confidence, like a healthy, curvy shape or standing up for herself even a little bit, has been associated with “bitchdom”. This might be attributed to the fact that there really ARE bitches out there- women who treat other people like scum, and pull the princess act.

Because women are seen as weaker, there is a higher chance of someone who wants to establish dominance attacking, raping, and/or killing a woman than a man. That's not to say that men aren't raped, abused, or killed, nuh-uh. That happens. It just happens less often, and is more related to a woman who needs to establish control, and ends up taking it out on a guy. There are lots of levels to the psychology of this, but I'm of the mindframe that the notion of “A guy can't hit a woman, but it's okay for the woman to hit him” is ridiculous and a double standard. If a girl punches you, a guy should be able to punch back with the same force. (Of course, it needs to be taken into account that a man is genetically predisposed to have better upper-body strength..).

I really, REALLY hate women who ruin it for the rest of us. The problem is, it seems like the majority of women nowadays who are spoiled little brats who play victim while smacking the hell out of guys, and threatening to “castrate” them, or whatever. The fact is, at the same time that there is factual basis to the idea that women are bitches, there is a factual basis for “guys are abusive jerks”. That doesn't mean ALL of either group is what the stereotype is. The more that people believe the stereotype, the more women will behave like they think they're supposed to, and the more men will behave like they think THEY are supposed to.

That's the other thing, too. Women are being taught to behave this way, pressured to act this way, because it's how “women should act to fit in”. It's what television teaches them. The opposite is happening to men; the demand for men to be more sensitive has created an outcry against it, making men pissed off that they have to “act a certain way”. I agree, they shouldn't have to! But don't effin' throw the baby out with the bathwater; don't get pissed at ALL women just because some are being horrible.

last edited on July 14, 2011 1:50PM
ccs1989 at 11:32AM, Oct. 25, 2006
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Darth Mongoose
Though I'm a girl who wears jeans and plays video games with the guys and is studying for a degree, it doesn't mean I think it's shameful to be a girl who wears frilly dresses and just wants to raise a family at home. If I were to go out and preach to all the women that they shouldn't be home-makers, and should go and get careers, I'd be just as bad as people who tell women that thei place is the kitchen and all that crap. A woman's place, just like a man's, is wherever she wants it to be.

This is basically the only part of this entire discussion I agree with. I'm not going to get involved in any other aspects of this debate, although I see some rational points on both sides.
http://ccs1989.deviantart.com

“If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.”
-Henry David Thoreau, Walden
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:38AM
Aurora Moon at 11:44AM, Oct. 25, 2006
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Rich
Someone
Talk about gender issues here.

Ok.

Someone
Should society have a say about what people can and can not solely based on their gender?

No, it shouldn't.

Someone
Like what they wear, what jobs they can do, weather get custody of their children, weather they can fight in a war, weather they can sell their bodies for sex, weather they can adopt children?

Men and women can do most everything equally, and therefore should be treated the same. Same goes for selling their bodies for sex. Men and women who prostitute themselves are equally as pathetic and are inferior to the standard human being.

Someone
Whatever, there are lots of things to consider… Should religion have a say on how we run our lives and define ourselves as men and women, girls and boys?

I've always felt that if a religion hindered anyone's ability to be themselves or how they run their lives, it is clearly overstepping it's boundaries. Religions that restrict people are nothing more than cults. Tell me whatever you want, but it's the truth.

Someone
Have women's rights ‘gone to far’ and are men now being unequally treated in some arenas?

This can be argued either way. As far as I can tell, they have gone plenty far, but could still go a bit further. Women should be eligible for things like the military draft and the infantry just as much as men are. If we can go get shot up for our country, so can they.

Someone
Have women's rights gone far enough? Are we even close to true equality?

We will never see ‘true’ equality. There will always be an asshole that will keep one group from progressing forward. ALWAYS! It's just part of human nature.

Someone
Does equality of the sexes really matter anyway, since there are real differences between us? How much do those differences even matter?

Equality does matter, because at the basic level, men and women are the same. Sure we have a slightly different genetic makeup, and different genitals, but those can be overlooked for the most part. A human being is defined not by what they have, but what they do with themselves.

right on! that was all what I would had said exactly ( more or less ) if you didn't get here first.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:09AM
Aurora Moon at 12:01PM, Oct. 25, 2006
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Rich
yeahduff
Feminazi propaganda

Gee, certainly you never considered how fucking hard it is for men to find jobs. Do you have any clue how many jobs I've been turned down for all because I am a guy? Speak all you want about men running everything, but anyone who's dealt with the western Pennsylvania job market will tell you that's bullshit.

And the whole thing of “but wymin ar always teh victim!” is total bullshit. Have you ever studied abuse that goes on to the men in relationships? It's far more prevalent, and far more common than women getting abused. The problem is that it is almost never reported because of the shame the men feel for being abused by a woman.

Same thing goes for women raping men. It IS possible and DOES happen and is almost never reported. Again, this is mainly because of shame and society issues more than anything, but it is far more common than you may think. Hell, it even happened to a relative of mine a short while back. And do you know what happens to men who report it?

“Did you enjoy it?”
“Come on dude, give us the details!”
“What? You didn't like it? You must be a fag!”

Comments like that. People don't want to admit that it is a possibility and is very common.


I totally agree with you there. it's the same with young boys and older women, you know. like if an ten year-old boy got lured into having sex with some 30-year-old woman, and some people found out, older boys in his school would be like all “cool! you're so fucking sweet for doing that!”

but going “what? you didn't like it? fag!!” if they find out that the boy was disturbed by it. and he gets an slap on the back by his father or something. the idea that it's okay and even better for an boy to lose his virginty at an young age to become the manilest man possible makes it hard for those young vicitims to admit that they got sexually abused by older women out there.. although more awareness on that issue seems to be making them open up to the public.

I had a male friend of mine, who was sexually assulted like that at a young age back then there wasn't huge news on young boys and older women. and there was all the bullcrap about the macho boy losing virginty bit. so he never told anybody at all what had happened until much later on when he was a 16-year-old teenager, when he told me. and then later on when he was an adult he passed out at an party and woke up to realize that he was being raped by an older woman yet again!
he has a lot of issues and it's even harder for him to get help because there's a lot of people out there who won't believe him, or even want to believe him.

Just thinking of it just makes me want to cry. some women can get treated like crap, yes. but Men go though a lot of shit too, and it's even worse with society imposing on men that they have to be strong, brave, and macho. that they can never be the injured victim, or else they get ridcluded for not being “man enough”.
I'm still rallying out there for there to be support groups for men who are victims of abusive women, for all ages out there….

after all, there's so many support groups for women already but not enough for men!
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:09AM
leraconteur at 2:28PM, Oct. 25, 2006
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yeahduff
Christ.
You looked in the yellow pages and found a lot of women's shelters. And that makes you oppressed. Right.
Domestic Violence is committed about 45% female upon male and 55% male upon female, yet there are fewer than 10 shelters for men in the entire U.S. Obviously the percentage should be higher, and money shouldn't be set aside just for VAWA, but for a VAMA as well. In fact, let's just set aside money for a Violence Against Citizens Act and be egalitarian, fair and equality minded.

link

http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/ID16.pdf

“The last column of Table 2A shows that at 21 of
the 31 universities, a larger percentage of women than men
assaulted a datingpartner. This confirms internationally a pattern
that has been found in many studies…”

I'm sure it was tough for you on the streets, but it's a whole hell of a lot tougher for a woman. Women are far more likely to be perceived as weak, are far more likely to be raped,.

Facts on Rape:

2% False Accusations is too low:
http://www.anandaanswers.com/pages/naaRefute.html
*************
False rape accusations approximately 25% - 45% of total:
http://www.mensnewsdaily.com/archive/s/sacks/2004/sacks091604.htm
************
40% of rape accusations false in midwestern city of 70,000 over 5 year period:

http://christianparty.net/kanin.htm

“complainant must admit that no rape had occurred. She is the sole agent who can say that the rape charge is false. The police department will not declare a rape charge as false when the complainant, for whatever reason, fails to pursue the charge or cooperate on the case, regardless how much doubt the police may have regarding the validity of the charge.

In short, these cases are declared false only because the complainant admitted they are false.”
*********

Actually men and women are raped at about equal rates, once one includes all the young men who are anally raped in prison.

Prison Rape:

http://hrw.org/reports/2001/prison/report7.html

Anywhere from 5% - 22% (and these are the lower range estimates) of the federal prison population of 1.2 million. That translates to 60,000 to 264,000 inmates (not incidents of…) rape(d). Many of these are forced to submit to rape on a regular basis, or be killed.

Contrast this with ~90,000 annual reported and convicted rapes.

are far more likely to be forced into prostitution,.
While a few individuals are forced or kidnapped and forced into prostitution, this story has more to do with the Urban Legend and Myth of White Slavery than reality. Women who travel to other nations and are in the sex industry are almost always aware that they will be prostitutes when they get there. It is just easier to imagine these poor defensely women as all victims of coercion.

http://www.walnet.org/csis/papers/doezema-loose.html
http://www.answers.com/topic/white-slavery

“Millions of people around the world still suffer in silence in slave-like situations of forced labor and commercial sexual exploitation from which they cannot free themselves.”

Note: ‘Slave-like’ does not equal Slave.

Note: ‘Sexual exploitation’ can and does include situations where women freely chose prostitution, not via slavery, being sold or coercion.

far more likely to be assaulted,.
This is just flatly and patently untrue. Men are far more likely to be assaulted.

far more likely to be kidnapped, far more likely to be killed..
This is also simply not true. According to recent FBI statistics, men are the victims of about 77% of all murders and in 2003 there were about 16,420 murders.

There are more women's shelters because women need more help..
There are more women's shelters because there is a bias in our society for women and against men, and Feminists have done a good job of using propaganda and falsehoods to convince lawmakers and the public that it is so.

As for the rest of your laundry list, take a look around. More support is drummed up for breast cancer than prostate cancer quite simply because women go out drumming up support for breast cancer. If prostate cancer really bothers you that much, start pressing the flesh. Be the change you wanna see in the world.
We are talking about Federal Funding. The Government has as its policy non-discrimination. Feminists and Women stand on a platform of equality, but when you acknowledge that there is inequality against men, you say it's our fault.

When women were inequal, it was men's fault then as well. You cannot have it both ways, all the time.

Sexual harrassment is real, and it still happens.
The Sexual Harrassment laws in the U.S. have gotten to the point where it is stupid to date or socialise with women at the office. We spend more time at the office than we do sleeping, but now it has been removed as a source of mates. This is just stupid, and divides men from women. But you all wanted it, so now men won't talk to you because all a woman has to do is accuse him and he's toast. Facts, truthfulness, her prior history of being a liar have no bearing. If a woman says it, it must be true.

Have any idea what the workplace was like for women before sexual harrassment lawsuits took prominence? You'd probably thank god for your penis if you did.
Yeah. It was productive. During this time the U.S. led the world in every economic metric known.

Violence against women quite simply is a persisting problem. What is it, one in five women who will be raped in their lifetime?.
More like one in 22. You have, sadly, absorbed many falsehoods that Feminists have propagated. The ‘facts’ that you know are almost all untrue, and propaganda.

Throw in domestic violence and random women targeted for being women, well, sounds like a reason to have a few support groups. Do you feel helpless when you walk the streets at night? Do you have a serious fear of being raped?
You fear walking the streets because you have had it drummed into your heads for the past 40 years that men are dangerous rapists. Prior to 1963 women didn't have such a fear. Why would that be?

Men's rights? Is that a joke? Men run everything.
Here you stumble into the fallacy of composition. You assume that because more men are in powerful positions, that men are more powerful in an absolute sense.

Nothing could be further from the truth. There have always been the top 5% of men who run the show, create the business, win the wars, lead the country. The vast majority of men have never run anything and simply had jobs and muddled through. We also were often forced to fight for ‘The King’ under penalty of death. We had no choice.

This world is designed by and for men.
It's designed by men, whose hard work has made life so easy for women that they now can spend more time complaining than running a household and being a supportive mate.

Things are being corrected now, and yes, some boundaries have been overstepped..
Then you are guilty of what you allege men did in the past.

Two wrongs never did make a right.

But quit kidding yourself. It's far easier to be a man in this world.
That must be why 96% of workplace deaths are men, why 99% of war combat deaths are men, why men die 7 years earlier than women when in 1910 men and women lived to the same age.

All the best,
-Lee.

last edited on July 14, 2011 1:34PM
Rich at 2:58PM, Oct. 25, 2006
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Since we're on the topic of misandy, I'll posta all this stuff from Wikipedia (I love that site!):

Someone
-Depression affects more than 6 million men in America alone, but the figures may be even higher due to the social stigmas attached to reporting it.

-A much higher percentage of male teenagers commit suicide than female teenagers.

-Men constitute approximately 80% of suicides.

-White males commit most suicides (an extreme act of powerlessness) compared to all other groups

-Men make up approximately 90% of the prison population in the United States.

-The majority of alcoholics, drug addicts, and homeless persons are men.

-Men have lower levels of university attendance, do increasingly worse in high schools and middle schools than women, and are far more frequently diagnosed as supposedly being afflicted with learning disorders such as ADHD.

-Men, on average, have a significantly lower life expectancy than women.

-Popular culture often depicts men as sex-crazed, and overbearing, an extreme exaggeration of most men's natural interest in sexuality and evolutionary ability to act aggressively.

-Depictions in sitcoms, advertising, and other television shows in which men (especially fathers) are shown as bumbling and inept.

-Recounting of death in which the body count as described in terms of “X fatalities, including Y women and children,” which reduces the value of the adult male lives lost.

-Numerous cultural double-binds, such as:
Men and women are expected to be equal, but men are often expected to be the sole monetary contributors towards expenses (for example, buying expensive jewelry, paying for meals, etc.).

-Men are told to be increasingly accepting of women who do not fit their expectations of attractiveness, while simultaneously being told (by advertising, print media, etc.) to make themselves increasingly attractive to women.

-Men are expected to be masculine, aggressive defenders of women, but also to act feminine and embrace typically female traits.

-Men are taught from a very young age that women are to be kept “on a pedestal” and revered, but the same cannot be said about women to men.

-Very few men have a power level over nine thousand. (IT'S OVER NINE THOUSAAAAAAND!)

-The increasingly popular cultural focus on the importance of having an above-average penis size, while simultaneously depicting focus on breast size, waist-to-hip ratio, and other attributes of female sexuality as sexist.

-There is a dichotomy between how men and women are perceived as attractive — women are often depicted or discussed as being beautiful even to other women, while men are regarded as being innately less attractive.

-Sexual oppression of men, often leading to desperate destructive and/or autodestructive acts, is still rarely discussed, while the sexual repression of women has finally been recognized in the last several decades .

-Men are expected to repress their sexuality, and are taught that admiring women's bodies is wrong.

-Workplaces will often taken the word of women over men when considering sexual harassment claims, even if no evidence supports the women's grievance.

-A case of rape may be prosecuted at the mere complaint of a female without any physical evidence to back it up.

-Rape of men by women is often considered ‘desirable’ by judges. There is a huge double standard in criminal sentences for rape, incest and other sex crimes that women commit against men versus those that men commit against women.

-In modern times, men are expected to close the pool, while women simply get help from staff.

-When considering crimes of equal magnitude, men will often be dealt harsher sentences than women.

-Advertising and other media frequently depict men in painful or humiliating circumstances (e.g., being hit in the testicles, threatened with castration, sexually harassed, deliberately denied sexual interactions for control or amusement, raped, verbally assaulted, etc.) as being acceptable or even humorous.

I swear to whatever sick god exists, the power level over nine thousand was already there. Go look if you don't believe me.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:06PM
ozoneocean at 3:43PM, Oct. 25, 2006
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Just a note here.
1. If you're going to post massive long links, please put it in the URL format, you know {url=http://www.whatever.com}link name{/url} (but with square brackets). the trouble is that long lines of non spaced text ruin the formatting in Mozilla browsers (Firefox etc).
2. Don't quote huge slabs of stuff that's available somewhere else, just the most relevant bits and link the rest: like in an essay, you cite your sources, but you don't include them wholesale.
3. When replying to someone's argument or even agreeing with them, please don't quote everything they said in one huge block. It's unnecessary and takes up space. (naughty naughty Aurora)
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:24PM
Rich at 3:49PM, Oct. 25, 2006
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posts: 1,434
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Sorry about that. I was just upset that us men never have power levels over nine thousand.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:06PM
LIZARD_B1TE at 5:16PM, Oct. 25, 2006
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posts: 3,308
joined: 6-22-2006
Oddly enough, in the past week I have noticed a few things that have to do with this conversation, although they aren't really big issues, just small ones about assumptions.

1) My school requires that you have done 100 hours of community service by the end of senior year in order to graduate. I'm a freshman, but I already have around 60 hours. I was working for more hours the other day and one of the kids asked me what I'd do if he punched me. I told him I'd kick him in the crotch. When I said that, the immediate reaction was “Guys don't do that!”

Screw that. I do what works and takes the least amount of time.

2) This girl at school, who knows I am attracted to her, decided to tell me that she liked this one kid who is really annoying and a huge asshole (I personally think he's sociopathic, but maybe that's just me). Anyway, she decided to switch seats with me one day, and naturally my seat was closer to the bastard. I told her she wasn't sitting in my seat. After that, we both were immediately were trying to get in. I pushed her out of the way and got my seat (if I hurt her, she didn't let it show), and the annoying kid told me I can't hit girls.
My thought process: Screw that, I'm not treating anyone differently on account of gender you dumbass.
What I said: Sure I can.
Naturally, he assumed I was sexist (though I doubt he knows what it means; his vocabulary is remarkably low)

3) This has nothing to do with feminism, but I hate how people automatically assume I'm crazy because I'm a loner. Apparently, the only reason a person would choose social isolation is because they're homicidal maniacs. I have no idea how that works.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:36PM
Aurora Moon at 6:15PM, Oct. 25, 2006
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LIZARD_B1TE
My thought process: Screw that, I'm not treating anyone differently on account of gender you dumbass.

3) This has nothing to do with feminism, but I hate how people automatically assume I'm crazy because I'm a loner. Apparently, the only reason a person would choose social isolation is because they're homicidal maniacs. I have no idea how that works.

yeah, I'm the same way. if somebody messes around with me, I'll get a fight into them and do unspeakable things to them (such as crotch-kicking and clawing the face), and I don't care if they're a man or a woman.

as for the homicial manaics chooseing social isolation, I cant help but laugh at that one as well. one would think that people would realize that it doesn't just work that way, if they look at all those homdical manaics that was always “Such a good person, very outgoing, etc…”
the point is that they were all very charmastic, always lead their victims to lower their guard around them because they'd never dare think that the wonderful person in from them who were so social and well-mannered would turn out to be a deadly killer. that's how they turn out to be homdical manaics… because they get away with it on one more occison until they mess up and get caught. that's why they're so scary.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:09AM
yeahduff at 8:44PM, Oct. 25, 2006
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You make a fine report, Lee. I concede I'm not as well read on the subject as I should be, and I shall aspire to be.

leraconteur
Domestic Violence is committed about 45% female upon male and 55% male upon female, yet there are fewer than 10 shelters for men in the entire U.S.

There is a question of context as well as how often within particular relationships violence occurs. Domestic issues are a messy business, so I guess it's near impossible to quantify. It is a fact, however, that a women is far more likely to be killed in a domestic incident.

leraconteur
Actually men and women are raped at about equal rates, once one includes all the young men who are anally raped in prison.

That's kinda avoiding the subject. I was talking about on the street, after all, and prison is almost a completely removed experience from the rest of the world. In any case, most feminists worth their salt speak against the domination of the physically weak by the physically strong, male or female. Obviously these rapes are wrong, but it is a society consisting of criminals.


leraconteur
Prostitution.

By forced I more meant forced by circumstance. Being on the street is one thing, being on the street and having to turn tricks to survive is another. Maybe I'm too much of a bleeding heart, but “slave-like” seems close enough to “slave” to know that it's a horrible life. Then throw in people who think you're somehow less than human….

leraconteur
There are more women's shelters because there is a bias in our society for women and against men, and Feminists have done a good job of using propaganda and falsehoods to convince lawmakers and the public that it is so.

I'm not convinced, but I'm sure neither one of us is budging.


leraconteur
As for the rest of your laundry list, take a look around. More support is drummed up for breast cancer than prostate cancer quite simply because women go out drumming up support for breast cancer. If prostate cancer really bothers you that much, start pressing the flesh. Be the change you wanna see in the world.
We are talking about Federal Funding. The Government has as its policy non-discrimination. Feminists and Women stand on a platform of equality, but when you acknowledge that there is inequality against men, you say it's our fault.

Were we talking about federal funding? Well, fine, point is it's been made a deal of because of a considerable push by women. Didn't just happen on its own. If we want increased federal funding for prostate cancer, we'd better say something about it to someone who matters, not just on the webcomic forum. It's not a matter of male life meaning less, it's a matter of the squeaky (and well organized) wheel getting the oil.

leraconteur
The Sexual Harrassment laws in the U.S. have gotten to the point where it is stupid to date or socialise with women at the office.

It was pretty stupid to date someone at the office anyway.


leraconteur
But you all wanted it, so now men won't talk to you because all a woman has to do is accuse him and he's toast. Facts, truthfulness, her prior history of being a liar have no bearing. If a woman says it, it must be true.

Well, it ain't perfect, and the unfortunate fact of the matter is that someone will always take advantage of any chance they're given. Doesn't mean we should discard sexual harrassment laws.

leraconteur
Yeah. It was productive. During this time the U.S. led the world in every economic metric known.

The you mean to say that sexual harrassment lawsuits are the sole contributer to America's declining economic dominance, in face of globalization and more skilled, cheaper worldwide labor?


leraconteur
You fear walking the streets because you have had it drummed into your heads for the past 40 years that men are dangerous rapists. Prior to 1963 women didn't have such a fear. Why would that be?

Probably because they did less walking around alone at night, if they knew what was good for them.


leraconteur
There have always been the top 5% of men who run the show, create the business, win the wars, lead the country. The vast majority of men have never run anything and simply had jobs and muddled through. We also were often forced to fight for ‘The King’ under penalty of death. We had no choice.

It is significant that those top five percent were men. Sure, most men won't be in the ruling class, but at least they have some shot. Anyway, when the man came home from serving some king, he'd typically rule his household. Not necessarily, not even often, with an iron fist, of course, but his word was basically the law. Not a great life, but at least he's got some control over his destiny. A mixed blessing, being a woman in such a situation. Sure, you stay home and work in relative safety, confident your man will support you. But that's a lot of dependence to have on another human being.

leraconteur
It's designed by men, whose hard work has made life so easy for women that they now can spend more time complaining than running a household and being a supportive mate.

Nice.

leraconteur
Things are being corrected now, and yes, some boundaries have been overstepped..
Then you are guilty of what you allege men did in the past.

Two wrongs never did make a right.

Not sure what you mean. That was an admission that not everything is roses, that things like divorce court need to treat men as equals to women.

Running out of steam tonight, and I got other things to do. Wrote plenty as it is.
Get yourself a lawyer and a gun.


last edited on July 14, 2011 4:53PM
SheaSummers at 10:15PM, Oct. 25, 2006
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skoolmunkee
I think it is more of an issue of a person being called by a name they don't want to be called, and people making a big deal out of it because that person is a woman.

If, in the workplace, you prefer to be called Mr. Summers by most people you meet, and everyone calls you Shea anyway, wouldn't you get annoyed? Maybe you want to maintain the level of professionalism that “Mr. Summers” has over “Shea”. You don't go to your doctor, lawyer, etc and call them “Bob” and “Bill” - they are Dr. Smith and Mr. Tate.

Being called the name you want to be called as is a form of power - if people insist on using a name that you DON'T want to be called, they're taking that power away from you and, in a way, disrespecting you. I imagine we just hear about it from women because, perhaps, it's easier to assume that women will be friendly and familiar and you can call them by their first name.

Even take a show like CSI Miami - the male characters are known by their last names (Delco, Wolfe, Caine) and the women are known by their first names (Calleigh, Natalia).

Good point, I have noticed that happen in my school too where the female teachers refer to the males by their last names while the females are called by their first.

I agree with the whole title rather than first names being used to show professionalism, but when I first read the post about not being able to call women by their first name, I just assumed it was a thing that women were bringing up in court.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:33PM
Hawk at 10:35PM, Oct. 25, 2006
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ozoneocean
Should religion have a say on how we run our lives and define ourselves as men and women, girls and boys?

Religion is a set of rules and a lifestyle. It's a lifestyle you choose. The nice thing about most religions is if you don't like them, you can quit them. They have their own set of rules and you choose to follow them or not follow them.

So I say yes, religion should have a say in how you run your life because thats its purpose. And if you don't like how it runs your life, choose a different religion or no religion at all. That's how simple it is.

Religions shouldn't control the lives of people who aren't their members.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:45PM
Aurora Moon at 6:20AM, Oct. 26, 2006
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yeahduff
leraconteur
Domestic Violence is committed about 45% female upon male and 55% male upon female, yet there are fewer than 10 shelters for men in the entire U.S.

There is a question of context as well as how often within particular relationships violence occurs. Domestic issues are a messy business, so I guess it's near impossible to quantify. It is a fact, however, that a women is far more likely to be killed in a domestic incident.

and where do you get those facts? did you know that in an domestic setting, if an woman starts getting violent with men, the men is likely to NOT even fight back espeically if they are married or even girlfriends to the men? they just let themselves get beat up bad without fighting back because they were raised up to believe that it was wrong to harm the women out there because even if they were beating your head in, they still deserve protection from that kind of thing because all women out there are such FRAGILE flowers!
and add to the fact that when it comes to things that they love with thier heart, they're pretty much wimps. “But she's my wife and I love her! I can't just bring myself to defend myself against her even if shes chasing me around with an bat or something!”

a lot of men that gets abused at home, the ones that never got help… they often get killed that way. and it's an high rate too….done from studies of police reports, etc.
it's much more common than you think. it's actually all pretty much equal. so what, one number is only SLIGHTLY higher than the other, doesn't mean anything… 45% and 50% is still close to each other in terms of numbers. so you could say that almost an equal amount of both men and women die or get abused badly at the hands of an abusive spouse. so there's not anything against women… that's just many people don't regonize the fact that men need help in some areas too.

yeahduff
That's kinda avoiding the subject. I was talking about on the street, after all, and prison is almost a completely removed experience from the rest of the world. In any case, most feminists worth their salt speak against the domination of the physically weak by the physically strong, male or female. Obviously these rapes are wrong, but it is a society consisting of criminals.

he wasn't just only talking about prison. There's men out there that have gotten raped at other places, such as at houses where there's parties, etc.
there's been cases of married men who were under the assumation that they could get drunk at friends' parties and that their friends would let their wives know. that they could crash at thier house and not have to drive home drunk because thier wives knows where they are. that nothing could happen at thier friends' house to them during an party. they pass out on the sofa, sleeping soundly…
only to wake up to find some strange women that they barely know on top of them, doing stuff to them even when they yelled for the women to stop. and when they try to report the women and tell thier wives about what happened… all of a sudden the married men are seen as unfaithful, and it's never the strange women's fault… despite the fact that the married men never intended to get laid at all… they just wanted to sleep it off and then drive home when sober. a lot of that happens.

It also happens to unmarried men too… in this age of AIDs and what not… belive it or not; not all men out there wants to wake up to some strange women they don't even know.

Duff
leraconteur
There are more women's shelters because there is a bias in our society for women and against men, and Feminists have done a good job of using propaganda and falsehoods to convince lawmakers and the public that it is so.

I'm not convinced, but I'm sure neither one of us is budging.

maybe you could brush up on the abuse of men, look at all the facts out there and compare all the data that you have on hand. then maybe you could see that he certainly does have an vaild point.

Well, it ain't perfect, and the unfortunate fact of the matter is that someone will always take advantage of any chance they're given. Doesn't mean we should discard sexual harrassment laws.
that I agree with, but I always felt strongly that they should add on to the laws to convict those who uses it wrongly… like how I always felt that people who accuse others wrongly of rape and even admits it later on should be tried as an criminal and put on some sort of record for misusing the laws. that should cut down on the cases of false rape cases. I know cops, and they say they can actually count on one hand the ACTUAL rape cases that they've seen that didn't turn out to be false. that makes it really hard for the victims to get thier justice, all because there's people who keeps on lying again and again. some have even got away with it.

in that same vein, I would also want simlar laws to be applied to the anti-harrasment laws. If it's obivous or proved that the men NEVER did anything like what the accuser told the court, then the accuser should compease for WASTING the court's time and for ruining an man's reptuation just because they simply didn't like the man or some other crazy reason.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:09AM
isukun at 6:29AM, Oct. 26, 2006
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It's a lifestyle you choose.

I'd have to say that 95% of the time that isn't true. It is something that is pounded into you from birth until you leave home. There is a reason why most kids grow up to have the same prejudices and values as their parents. When you grow up thinking something is normal or true, it is very hard to simply toss it aside later in life.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:03PM
LIZARD_B1TE at 5:29PM, Oct. 26, 2006
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isukun
It's a lifestyle you choose.

I'd have to say that 95% of the time that isn't true. It is something that is pounded into you from birth until you leave home. There is a reason why most kids grow up to have the same prejudices and values as their parents. When you grow up thinking something is normal or true, it is very hard to simply toss it aside later in life.

Yeah. But there are still acceptions. For example: I have never attended a public school in my life. The only schools I have been to are Catholic ones. I was raised Catholic, I've had Religion as a subject all my life, and all that other stuff.

And yet, there are so many things about Catholicism that I flat out refuse to believe, because no amount of twisted thought processes seem to make sense out of it. In truth, my personal beliefs actually lean closer to Deism.

Aurora Moon
and when they try to report the women and tell thier wives about what happened… all of a sudden the married men are seen as unfaithful, and it's never the strange women's fault

But, its NEVER the fault of the so called “minority”! Obviously people's ages, genders, and ethinicities are the ONLY deciding factor in these things! They're personalities mean nothing!

I hate people who think like that.


All this reminds me of that one Law and Order: SVU when three women raped a man, but when he told the police, they didn't believe him. They investigated, discovered he may have been raped after all, and… the jury doesn't buy it.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:36PM
ozoneocean at 5:47PM, Oct. 26, 2006
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LIZARD_B1TE
All this reminds me of that one Law and Order: SVU when three women raped a man, but when he told the police, they didn't believe him. They investigated, discovered he may have been raped after all, and… the jury doesn't buy it.
That might have been quite an interesting and emotive episode (I don't know, haven't seen it), but remember that it's only a TV show, it's supposed to get those reactions from you.
That'd be very sad if it was real though.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:24PM
Aurora Moon at 7:22PM, Oct. 26, 2006
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ozoneocean
LIZARD_B1TE
All this reminds me of that one Law and Order: SVU when three women raped a man, but when he told the police, they didn't believe him. They investigated, discovered he may have been raped after all, and… the jury doesn't buy it.
That might have been quite an interesting and emotive episode (I don't know, haven't seen it), but remember that it's only a TV show, it's supposed to get those reactions from you.
That'd be very sad if it was real though.

shows like law and order often borrows from real life for epodises though.

the same for CSI…. there's been news reports and police reports of young kids that was just toddlers killing thier newborn siblings unintentionally. some families have actually tried to cover up the fact that thier children killed each other, even unintionally as an attempt to protect thier toddler children who didn't know what they had done. CSI made an epodise based on that.

so I wouldn't be surpised if law and order ispirsed that off an real event.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:09AM
Aussie_kid at 12:35AM, Oct. 27, 2006
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Aurora Moon
I totally agree with you there. it's the same with young boys and older women, you know. like if an ten year-old boy got lured into having sex with some 30-year-old woman, and some people found out, older boys in his school would be like all “cool! you're so fucking sweet for doing that!”

but going “what? you didn't like it? fag!!” if they find out that the boy was disturbed by it. and he gets an slap on the back by his father or something. the idea that it's okay and even better for an boy to lose his virginty at an young age to become the manilest man possible makes it hard for those young vicitims to admit that they got sexually abused by older women out there.. although more awareness on that issue seems to be making them open up to the public.


Some who read mine or Amy's comic may remember a tale about me and some girl guides a few years ago.

Back then, when the troop found out, I got hi-fives and the like. I put a fake smile over my face and acted like I was proud of myself for getting laid at such a young age. This was complete crap. I knew I had been raped. I was a teenager, couldn't control myself and the girls were all older than me plus much stronger. To others it would have seemed like a dream come true. To tell you the truth, I'm kind of ashamed with what happened. Every time I look back on it, I kind of get depressed

Losing your virginity is supposed to be when you're ready, to some one you care about. That was the view I've always had. I really wish I could have gone by it

*Waits for the ‘U R 4 g3y f4g’ comments*
Insanity Complex: We may not be insane, but we like to think we are
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:11AM

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