Debate and Discussion

Misogyny, Misandry, Feminism, Gender politics, Men's rights, Women's rights! Who's right?
Aurora Moon at 5:18AM, Oct. 27, 2006
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I'm so sorry that happened to you :(
you're not the only one that sort of thing happened to.


like I said in pervious posts, I had am male friend who went though an simlar thing…he was a young teenager.. around 13 years old or so when it happened, and the woman who had done it to him was like around 17-18 years old…easily overpowered him and everything. and he didn't even tell anybody about it, so nobody knew until he had finally opened up to me and his parents when he was around 16 years old.
The reason why he didn't tell anybody for such a long time is because he felt ashamed about what happened, and not to metion he knew what the guys at school would say and do and he didn't want to get an “awesome!” reaction and a slap on the back.. because he didn't want to get that from others, espeically when he never enjoyed it at all.

I can't say I didn't blame him. it's like if it was reversed.. you know, for it to be awesome that girls gets to lose their virginty at a young age and so on forth. That if the girls gave each other congrulations on it, then I wouldn't tell anybody I got raped at a young age if I had gotten raped. After all, the last thing an rape victim needs or wants is for people to go “You got sexually assulted against your will? wow, congralations!! Were the people totally hot or what? come on, tell me all the details!! oh wow, I envy you!!”

My male friend, who I won't even say the name of, he had bad luck though… snice when he became of adult age he had finally came terms to it when it happened AGAIN.

well, I'd rather not talk about the rest in very deep detail… just disturbing to think about conidsering it happened to somebody I personally knew.

but to make a long story short, he was 19 at the second time.
the woman actually admitted to tying him up and stuff. turns out that nothing was done with her at all… she was let go free in the end. no jail or nothing… save for an restraining order to never go near him again and also to be put on the sex offender list.

just thinking of it just makes me sick. Male rapists gets prison up to 9-20 years depending on the situation… but female rapists don't get prison time at all? instead they go free save for an restraining order in my male friend's case!

bleh. it's bad enough when an person gets raped once, but twice?? espeically with both times there being nothing done about the criminals. that's gonna be very damaging to an person's pysche.

You know, if I ever run across those women that hurt him, I'd kill them or at least toture them. Seriously. In fact I'd do that to ANY woman out there who did that.. because obviously the law does nothing when it comes to female offenders.
equality in the eyes of the law, my ass.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:09AM
leraconteur at 1:16PM, Oct. 27, 2006
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[quote=“yeahduff
”]
leraconteur
The Sexual Harrassment laws in the U.S. have gotten to the point where it is stupid to date or socialise with women at the office.

It was pretty stupid to date someone at the office anyway.[/quote
My point is that prior to ~1963 and sexual harrassment laws, it wasn't stupid at all. In fact that was a major way that men and women met, hooked up, and got married. Now, it is totally off limits because the risks are so great to the man. Any advance can be unwanted, so it's all in her head and all she needs to do is lodge one complaint with HR and his career is ruined.

[quote=“yeahduff
”]
leraconteur
But you all wanted it, so now men won't talk to you because all a woman has to do is accuse him and he's toast. Facts, truthfulness, her prior history of being a liar have no bearing. If a woman says it, it must be true.

Well, it ain't perfect, and the unfortunate fact of the matter is that someone will always take advantage of any chance they're given. Doesn't mean we should discard sexual harrassment laws.
It also doesn't mean that the laws as currently written, enacted or administered are sane or right.

No one is arguing for quid pro quo, which while infrequent did happen. What I am referring to is the fact that if I suggest a get together with a woman at work, and she decides to file a complaint, she can and there is nothing that can be done. If I tell a joke and she finds it offensive, she can complain. But if the women comment on the attractiveness of a delivery man, we are supposed to tolerate. This is just bullshit.

The current situation is that a woman's word is defacto proof. Under no other aspect of the legal system is one witnesses testimony considered de facto proof of guilt. Cooroboration, a trial by jury, are all necessary. But not with regards to SH claims. She accuses, he is guilty until proven innocent. This is because so many SH lawsuits cost so many companies so much money that they cannot afford to give the man his Constitutional presumption of innocence.

Other aspects of the judicial system have checks and balances, but when it comes to SH claims there are none. She accuses, he is guilty.

[quote=“yeahduff
”]
leraconteur
Yeah. It was productive. During this time the U.S. led the world in every economic metric known.

The you mean to say that sexual harrassment lawsuits are the sole contributer to America's declining economic dominance, in face of globalization and more skilled, cheaper worldwide labor?]
Please read up on your logical fallacies. Your statement is Begging The Question.

[quote=“yeahduff
”]
leraconteur
You fear walking the streets because you have had it drummed into your heads for the past 40 years that men are dangerous rapists. Prior to 1963 women didn't have such a fear. Why would that be?

Probably because they did less walking around alone at night, if they knew what was good for them.
No, because they weren't taught to fear all men, all the time. They didn't have the media harping on the handful of cases to convince them that there was this huge societal trend of women disappearing, being raped, attacked and mugged.

In fact, the absolute number of rapes has declined over the past 35 years.
Women are safer now than ever. Much of what you assume about the world is fiction and media slant and propaganda.


leraconteur
There have always been the top 5% of men who run the show, create the business, win the wars, lead the country. The vast majority of men have never run anything and simply had jobs and muddled through. We also were often forced to fight for ‘The King’ under penalty of death. We had no choice.

It is significant that those top five percent were men. Sure, most men won't be in the ruling class, but at least they have some shot. Anyway, when the man came home from serving some king, he'd typically rule his household. Not necessarily, not even often, with an iron fist, of course, but his word was basically the law. Not a great life, but at least he's got some control over his destiny. A mixed blessing, being a woman in such a situation. Sure, you stay home and work in relative safety, confident your man will support you. But that's a lot of dependence to have on another human being.
He is dependent upon her for support, rearing children, making a house into a home.
She is dependent upon him for support and providing for the family.

Feminists and some women got this insane idea that women were somehow exploited by chosing to be mothers and housewives. You express a diluted version of this when you post “… But that's a lot of dependence to have on another human being.” Who is going to rear the kids? Watch them prior to K, and after they get home at 3pm? The fact is that very few men left their families, although the ones who did were exploited as indicative of all men.

This concept is similar to many career women looking at the behavior of the top 5% of men, their cheating ways and marriages of convenience, they assumed all men were like these few, and then women AS A WHOLE decided to emulate this behavior. They looked at the Alpha Men and the lowlifes, who are the men they wanted, assumed all men were like that, assumed men would find those same characteristics attractive in women, and then began to do the same; drink heavily, become promiscuous, cheat, get tattoes and piercings.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:34PM
isukun at 8:10PM, Oct. 27, 2006
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Yeah. But there are still acceptions.

You did catch that “95%” part, right?

That'd be very sad if it was real though.

Apart from statutory rape of a minor, it is very hard for a man to convince the court he has been raped by any woman. In fact, for the most part, the law doesn't even allow for that in its definition of rape. In most states, a man cannot by the definition offered in the law be raped by a woman.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:03PM
Aurora Moon at 10:07PM, Oct. 27, 2006
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isukun
Apart from statutory rape of a minor, it is very hard for a man to convince the court he has been raped by any woman. In fact, for the most part, the law doesn't even allow for that in its definition of rape. In most states, a man cannot by the definition offered in the law be raped by a woman.

which of course is bullshit to me. not all men are tall, Super Musclar men that can ward off any attacks if they wish. what about the short, skinny, or the nerdish types?

and just because most women aren't seen as very muscular, doesn't mean that they can't think up ways to overcome an man. one of the methods I've heard about that was common in women raping men, is getting them drunk or drugging them, and then tying them up so that they couldn't stop the women from doing anything. which was actually something that happened to an male friend of mine.

and the other thing that many women out there doesn't seem to understand– an man cannot stop his penis from getting hard or even control it. it can get randomly hard for some men out there without them even thinking about anything even remotely erotic… and even if the men aren't aroused at all, the penis can still respond to simulating situations and become hard.so an woman can still easily rape an man like that. so it's not like an man can stop his own penis from being hard, thus preventing the woman from using him to perpetrate herself.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:09AM
Black_Kitty at 2:37PM, Oct. 28, 2006
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Can I just point out that although most people who have breast cancer are predominately female, it is possible for a male to have breast cancer as well? It's a very small percentage but the possibility does exist.

Breast cancer is an interesting “thing” in that it has ballooned into something much bigger in the media. It's sort of the poster girl for cancer. Think of the pink ribbon campaign and how popular that has been in recent years. My city's paper recently ran an article talking about the pink ribbon campaign and the growing concern that it has now romanticized breast cancer and is slowly losing sight of what the campaign is really about.

As someone else had said in this thread, feminism is about advocating equal rights for women. Obviously if a woman has less rights, then that's unequal but it can also swing the other way. If a woman has too much rights, that too is unequal.

Men and women are different but both genders are equally deserving of respect and equally deserving of fair social and political rights. So if a woman does equal work, then they should get equal pay. If a man claims he was raped, then he should be taken just as seriously as a woman who claims she was raped.

Good point, I have noticed that happens in my school too where the female teachers refer to the males by their last names while the females are called by their first.

Most teachers I know would refer to other teachers by their last name in front of other students. For example, I know my associate teacher's first name but I would never use it in front of her students. I would refer to her as Miss follow by her last name.

It's not only respectful but it prevents oversharing. It also encourages the other students to refer to their teachers in a respectful manner. It also is indeed an issue of power.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:23AM
Tantz Aerine at 9:02AM, Oct. 29, 2006
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I must admit I skimmed though some of the posts, so if I am stating something already said, please forgive me.


I think there is severe discrimination against both men and women, in different ways and maybe in different points of everyday life, but still enormously restricting and, in my opinion, unfair.

For example, if a boy/man overtly shows feelings, he is tagged a ‘sissy’ or a covert homosexual or some sort of deviant and not real part of the male sex. If a woman doesn't care to show her feelings and projects a more or less tough/detached persona to third parties, then she's anything from a tomboy to a lesbian and once more, not real part of the female sex.

I could go on and on, but I feel (having seen it being done in classrooms between kids and more horribly, by teachers themselves) it's very bad to socially blackmail a person to conform to any kind of stereotype. So, sexual discrimination or gender discrimination or however you call it, is simply yet another way to herd people in big categories and not bother looking at the individual themselves.

…and on another note, I think taking care to speak in painfully politically correct ways (like vertically challenged instead of short- come on!-) is just another expression of everyday madness. Enforcing the words will not mean you change the ideas- you may even end up accentuating the attitude.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:06PM
Aussie_kid at 5:41PM, Oct. 29, 2006
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Tantz Aerine
For example, if a boy/man overtly shows feelings, he is tagged a ‘sissy’ or a covert homosexual or some sort of deviant and not real part of the male sex. If a woman doesn't care to show her feelings and projects a more or less tough/detached persona to third parties, then she's anything from a tomboy to a lesbian and once more, not real part of the female sex.

Sad, but true. During the time when I just had my operation, I'd start crying over almost nothing, because the pain in my arms brought me so close to tears, almost anything could push me into crying. It wasn't until I started dating Amy that people started to think I was straight (Even then, people thought it was just a way to keep myself in the closet).

Insanity Complex: We may not be insane, but we like to think we are
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:11AM
isukun at 12:20PM, Oct. 30, 2006
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Although the effects are more evident in how pople treat us, I think in many ways, the media helps to reinforce those stereotypes. Take advertising, for example. It's supposedly there to inform consumers, but with kids and teens, it's meant to set trends. It lets kids know what's cool in terms of products, but it also shows us what sort of stereotypes we should live up to. Kids buy into this stuff all the time. They certainly don't get their fashion tips or learn about the latest fads from mom and dad.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:03PM
kyupol at 6:11PM, Oct. 30, 2006
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Tantz Aerine
I must admit I skimmed though some of the posts, so if I am stating something already said, please forgive me.


I think there is severe discrimination against both men and women, in different ways and maybe in different points of everyday life, but still enormously restricting and, in my opinion, unfair.

For example, if a boy/man overtly shows feelings, he is tagged a ‘sissy’ or a covert homosexual or some sort of deviant and not real part of the male sex. If a woman doesn't care to show her feelings and projects a more or less tough/detached persona to third parties, then she's anything from a tomboy to a lesbian and once more, not real part of the female sex.

I could go on and on, but I feel (having seen it being done in classrooms between kids and more horribly, by teachers themselves) it's very bad to socially blackmail a person to conform to any kind of stereotype. So, sexual discrimination or gender discrimination or however you call it, is simply yet another way to herd people in big categories and not bother looking at the individual themselves.

…and on another note, I think taking care to speak in painfully politically correct ways (like vertically challenged instead of short- come on!-) is just another expression of everyday madness. Enforcing the words will not mean you change the ideas- you may even end up accentuating the attitude.

Dont forget your “must learn” skills.

Women
- cooking
- sewing
- all the cleaning related stuff


Men
- at least know your basic handyman stuff (carpentry, plumbing, painting, etc…)
- fighting and being “tough”



NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:25PM
ozoneocean at 9:56PM, Oct. 30, 2006
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kyupol
Dont forget your “must learn” skills.

Women
- cooking
- sewing
- all the cleaning related stuff

Men
- at least know your basic handyman stuff (carpentry, plumbing, painting, etc…)
- fighting and being “tough”
I can do ALL that stuff and more, I learned it as I was growing up. Personally I think ALL kids should learn how to cook, clean, sew, do basic repair/fabrication work and stand up for themselves. Those skills are equally as important as reading, writing and mathematics! Parents CAN NOT be expected to make kids learn those things, and many kids don't even pick up those skills by the time they've finished highschool, which is pretty bad.
Segregating the teaching of those skills according to gender is even less appropriate in this current age because the roles of adult men and women are so blurred compared to what they were even 20 years ago. Once almost everyone could expect to be part of a partnership (husband and wife), that'd stick together as a lifelong team with certain tasks and duties assigned to each… There were ALWAYS a lot of exceptions though and those people had to learn to cope; it wasn't always easy, but it's even LESS easy now! I know adults who can not do simple repairs, can not manufacture simple objects, can not clean properly, can not cook well, couldn't stand up for themselves in any sort of confrontation, and wouldn't know sewing from brain surgery!

That's bad. Especially if you can't cook well. That's pathetic. And if you use the “but I'm a man/woman” excuse, you're even sadder.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:24PM
Rich at 10:11PM, Oct. 30, 2006
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kyupol
Dont forget your “must learn” skills.

Women
- cooking
- sewing
- all the cleaning related stuff

Men
- at least know your basic handyman stuff (carpentry, plumbing, painting, etc…)
- fighting and being “tough”

I hate physical violence, can't do ANY handyman stuff, and am as far from tough as one can get. These stereotypes fucking suck.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:06PM
ozoneocean at 10:29PM, Oct. 30, 2006
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Rich
I hate physical violence, can't do ANY handyman stuff, and am as far from tough as one can get. These stereotypes fucking suck.
Those aren't stereotypes, they're traditionally gender segregated skills, that's completely different from stereotypes: A male or female that had their properly assigned skill-set would fit into their gender stereotype, but the skills themselves ARE NOT a stereotype.

Anyway, you don't have to like violence, but you SHOULD be able to confidently face most sorts of confrontation. You should also be able to fix and make things, all adults should. That's not a “male” thing, that's an essential skill! Being able to perform simple repairs can mean life and death to you, or at least save you hundreds if not thousands of dollars.

Having an antipathy for a particular set of skills because of an assumed gender bias means you are just as hung up as someone who thinks you should have ONLY the skills traditionally associated with your gender.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:24PM
kyupol at 4:08AM, Oct. 31, 2006
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ozoneocean
I can do ALL that stuff and more, I learned it as I was growing up. Personally I think ALL kids should learn how to cook, clean, sew, do basic repair/fabrication work and stand up for themselves. Those skills are equally as important as reading, writing and mathematics! Parents CAN NOT be expected to make kids learn those things, and many kids don't even pick up those skills by the time they've finished highschool, which is pretty bad.



yep. I agree. Those are survival skills. I believe these skills are necessary for survival:

- basic handyman stuff… includes fixing cars and computers.
- reading, math
- computer literacy
- cooking
- sewing
- driving
- fighting


But on the bright side… thats how I make extra money and save thousands of dollars by doing basic repair (except cars… which I completely know nothing of).

I know how to sew… but I'm horrible at it and no way in hell can I make elaborate stitching patterns. Just enough to patch up a torn shirt or pocket… but if you look at it, you would KNOW right away that its a poorly done sewing job. Putting the thread right through the needle is pretty hard for me. While doing that task, I find myself wishing that I had smaller hands.


And oh… I know how to cook but its only enough to survive and not to impress anyone.
NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:25PM
Tantz Aerine at 3:58AM, Nov. 1, 2006
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I agree totally that knowing some basic skills can save you hundreds of dollars/euro or even thousands. Not only by doing yourself what others will charge the sky to do for you (from fixing the plumbing to painting a room), but by being able to judge if you are being had or if you are being asked for more than the task/product is worth.

It can also do loads for your health, especially in cooking- because at least you know what you feed yourself and you will definitely cook in healthier ways than in fast foods or restaurants.

I remember when I was a student, in the dorm only I and a couple of chinese girls cooked- and we were the only ones who saved money, ate well and did not gain weight. We also did not get sick at all (everyone else got bad cases of the flu, even with a flu shot).

Anyway, I think it's beyond gender segregation, to know how to fend for yourself in all aspects of everyday life. It may also grant you the gratification of being independent and in control.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:06PM
Aurora Moon at 11:18AM, Nov. 2, 2006
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Aussie_kid
Tantz Aerine
For example, if a boy/man overtly shows feelings, he is tagged a ‘sissy’ or a covert homosexual or some sort of deviant and not real part of the male sex. If a woman doesn't care to show her feelings and projects a more or less tough/detached persona to third parties, then she's anything from a tomboy to a lesbian and once more, not real part of the female sex.

Sad, but true. During the time when I just had my operation, I'd start crying over almost nothing, because the pain in my arms brought me so close to tears, almost anything could push me into crying. It wasn't until I started dating Amy that people started to think I was straight (Even then, people thought it was just a way to keep myself in the closet).

yeah. I can relate to that, somewhat. I'm one of those women who isn't very good at expressing or showing her feelings… I rarely cry… even when in pain. yet I would like to think of myself as just a woman.. I like wearing makeup sometimes, etc. but I've had people think me an lesbain or something just because of how I view certain things at times before. in fact, sometimes I just don't understand how some women out there think… like how they seem to expect thier men to be mindreaders with some things, you know? and I'm like “uh, okay.”
but I can joke about it at least. “you might think I'm an lesbain… but the reality is that I'm just a bitch.” that gets some people chuckling a little bit sometimes, depends on how I say it.

but it sucks how some people just assume things. but whatever… as long as you find happiness in the end, right?
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:09AM
Tantz Aerine at 2:27PM, Nov. 3, 2006
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Aurora Moon
Aussie_kid
Tantz Aerine
but it sucks how some people just assume things. but whatever… as long as you find happiness in the end, right?

It is not pleasant to have people assume things, but it can be a blessing in disguise- after all, they grant you an insight into their character and personality you would otherwise have to learn in terms of more heartache or anger. As it is now, you get to know what to expect out right. So feel glad you get this sort of ‘heads up’ so to speak ;)
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:06PM
Black_Kitty at 2:49PM, Nov. 3, 2006
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My brother used to pull the “that's a man's job and that's a woman's job” crap with me a few times. Each time I told him the same things:

1. Why am I shovelling the snow and mowing the lawn then if that's a man's job?
2. He better get used to being hungry then if he thinks he's too much of a man to cook.
3. He better get used to wearing dirty clothes too.
4. And living in a dirty house.
5. Might as well get a job too.

Because there may be a time one day when he'll be living alone and there will be no woman in his life to cook, clean, and wash his clothes for him. So he can choose. Live like a penniless dirty child or be a dignified and clean adult.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:23AM
kyupol at 4:05PM, Nov. 3, 2006
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Black_Kitty
My brother used to pull the “that's a man's job and that's a woman's job” crap with me a few times. Each time I told him the same things:

1. Why am I shovelling the snow and mowing the lawn then if that's a man's job?
2. He better get used to being hungry then if he thinks he's too much of a man to cook.
3. He better get used to wearing dirty clothes too.
4. And living in a dirty house.
5. Might as well get a job too.

Because there may be a time one day when he'll be living alone and there will be no woman in his life to cook, clean, and wash his clothes for him. So he can choose. Live like a penniless dirty child or be a dignified and clean adult.


makes me wanna sign up for sewing classes and learn how to knit and all that. Since I'm horrible in sewing things. Sometimes, something that I sewed tends to rip the next day. I dunno. I just suck shit at it.

I'd probably be the only guy in there… but hey. I'd be surrounded by 20 women.
NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:25PM
Neilsama at 9:55PM, Nov. 4, 2006
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Oh shit… Dude. I shouldn't even touch this one. Anytime I comment on threads like this, somebody gets pissed off at me. Oh brother… um… Okay, I'll keep it short and sweet.

Basically, my opinion on this matter is that as long as we have “equal rights” between biological collectives (whether they be black and white, men and women, gay and straight, etc.), we're still guilty of categorizing people. In other words, when you say that men and women should have equal rights, you're still putting a line between them.

I'm for individual rights. Every individual should have the same rights. That way, it's across-the-board. There are no lines. There are boundaries. We are all individuals.

There… Problem solved. Too bad I'll be long dead before anyone in power adopts this philosophy.

ozoneocean
Should religion have a say on how we run our lives and define ourselves as men and women, girls and boys?
There isn't a shift key or bold command strong enough to emphasize the “no” response that question deserves.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:10PM
Rich at 9:57PM, Nov. 4, 2006
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kyupol
makes me wanna sign up for sewing classes and learn how to knit and all that. Since I'm horrible in sewing things. Sometimes, something that I sewed tends to rip the next day. I dunno. I just suck shit at it.

I'd probably be the only guy in there… but hey. I'd be surrounded by 20 women.

sewing is sooo much fun! you should do it. just think of all the money youll save making your own clothes!!! <3
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:06PM
Tantz Aerine at 6:23AM, Nov. 5, 2006
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Neilsama
Basically, my opinion on this matter is that as long as we have “equal rights” between biological collectives (whether they be black and white, men and women, gay and straight, etc.), we're still guilty of categorizing people. In other words, when you say that men and women should have equal rights, you're still putting a line between them.

I'm for individual rights. Every individual should have the same rights. That way, it's across-the-board. There are no lines. There are boundaries. We are all individuals.


I couldn't agree more!!! I am so happy you do have this philosophy. Because many times people just don't notice the obvious.

And look! I don't hate you!! ;)
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:06PM
Neilsama at 2:26PM, Nov. 5, 2006
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Yay!
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:10PM

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