Debate and Discussion

Modesty going out the window for young girls
Aussie_kid at 7:50PM, Oct. 20, 2006
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Okay, so I have to take my cousins shopping for new bathing suits (Both are girls, one 14, the other eight) and we go into the nearby specialty shop

When we get to the children's section, all I can find for the 8-year-old are two pieces that reveal a little too much. The least revealing one I could find she wouldn't wear because it was too itchy. It was a sleeveless crop top with string briefs. Finally, I decided that we could get her one of the revealing ones if we also got her a sunshirt.

Onto my other cousin. We go to the teenagers section. After seeing the selection, she find a bra and boyshorts combination. When she tried it on, the boyshorts were perfect but the bra was tight on her. I find this weird as she is quite a small girl. All the other combinations, we discover, have lace up g-strings.

I ask the girl at the counter if they have anything else that's less revealing for either girl, or if we could mix and match. She laughs at me and calls me a prude. I tell her I don't want my cousins becoming the jailbait fantasies of some perverts. She still doesn't understand what's wrong with my 8-year-old cousin wearing a g-string. In the end, we just leave and try some other stores, all ending with the same result

Now, it's not just beachwear I have noticed. I've been seeing 11-year-olds in miniskirts, 9-year-olds in high leather boots, etc. Amy once dragged me shopping with her (As I'm sure many of us guys with girls have been through) and she couldn't find anything in her size that didn't show too much cleavage, stomach or thighs (And this was for winter clothes)

The problem is, the parents of these girls have no choice. In some cases, the clothes are the most modest they could find or their daughters absolutely refuse to wear anything else. The reason for refusal, I've heard, is that others wear it or their dolls do.

Now, I come to my other problem. Bratz. Girls walking around and looking like hookers. Okay, this is bad enough, but then they bring out Bratz Babies. Two month old girls talking about how they're ‘naughty’ or ‘nice’ and dressing up in these tiny clothes. And people wonder why I only buy my little cousins Barbies (At least the girl has some modesty)

So what do you guys think? Is young female fashion turning so that soon girls won't be able to cover themselves entirely, or am I just in an area where all the bad stuff gets sent
Insanity Complex: We may not be insane, but we like to think we are
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:11AM
Zenstrive at 8:07PM, Oct. 20, 2006
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submit to the way of Islam and its honorable rule of obligating female humans to cover all but face and hands.
there are swimming suits that fit the requirements too :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:55PM
Rich at 9:13PM, Oct. 20, 2006
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Just wait, I give it a year and they will have thong diapers.

Yes, you heard me right. THONG DIAPERS! They will have them! I guarentee it!
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:06PM
ozoneocean at 5:04AM, Oct. 21, 2006
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Zenstrive
submit to the way of Islam and its honorable rule of obligating female humans to cover all but face and hands.
there are swimming suits that fit the requirements too :)
Islam doesn't demand that. Out of the 100's of Millions of Muslims in the world, not many actually practise that. It's a cultural practise that's not your own, get over it. Christianity has sects that do exactly the same thing, as does Judaism and probably others as well.

I agree with you Aussie Kid. I don't think it's a healthy thing that children are wearing clothes that were designed to make adults more sexually attractive. That's quite nasty actually. There are some groups that blame the producers and the retailers that buy from them, but that's moronic, they only produce and stock what sells. The problem is the demand. WHY is there a demand to sexualise young children? The parents who buy these clothes need to have a long hard look at themselves.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:24PM
LIZARD_B1TE at 11:20AM, Oct. 21, 2006
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This reminds me of a few girls at school…

One was complaining that she had a hard time stepping over the bench to sit down at lunch because of her skirt, she complained about for about a week. The idea of not wearing a skirt never once came to her.

And of course that other girl who said she had to wear stuff under a dress because it was too small and said something about it being to hot under all that stuff, when I asked her why she doesn't just wear a different outfit, she said “because it looks cute,” as if it were an obvious reason.

I find it interesting that girls, who were at one time so modest they would faint out of shock if they saw modern fashion, are now arguably the least modest people out there. When grinding was banned from the Homecoming dance, none of the boys complained, but pretty much every girl went on a warpath.

And don't get me started on high-heels…
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:36PM
ozoneocean at 11:49AM, Oct. 21, 2006
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LIZARD_B1TE
This reminds me of a few girls at school…
Yeah, there's a few silly things, but generally I support the right of people to make their own choices. With young kids it's different because those are sexual, adult clothes that the parents buy for them, and should not be buying for them.

But if we're talking about sexually mature/aware older people (the teens in your school for example), who can buy their own stuff and make informed choices, that's different.
The subset is people who's cultural practises don't allow for such displays. If they want to be sexy, they can always leave their culture and join a new one, weather they're orthodox Jew, conservative Muslim, Amish, conservative Mormon, a Catholic Nun/monk, whatever.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:24PM
kyupol at 1:46PM, Oct. 21, 2006
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fuck Bratz. It encourages young women to be spoiled, shallow, princess-mentality bitches. Then later on in life, they'd be complaining why they're only getting the players and jerks after them. Then when they're old… and after they've fucked the 20th man who left them… they end up miserable fat old hags that nobody wants anymore. Talk about losing your market value.


Now, it's not just beachwear I have noticed. I've been seeing 11-year-olds in miniskirts, 9-year-olds in high leather boots, etc. Amy once dragged me shopping with her (As I'm sure many of us guys with girls have been through) and she couldn't find anything in her size that didn't show too much cleavage, stomach or thighs (And this was for winter clothes)

Encourages pedophilia. Then these parents are gonna be fucking clueless and in omgwtf mode when a pedophile snatches their child.

I'm not giving excuses for pedophilia… and I truly think that pedophiles deserve harsher sentences and the “jailhouse justice” they receive from other inmates.

Its just that prevention is better than the cure. Something like locking the door when you leave your house.
NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:25PM
Black_Kitty at 4:38PM, Oct. 21, 2006
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My prof once told us this semi-amusing story. There are these two girls in a school she worked in that were wearing really sexualized outfits. They were trying to fit in, figured this was the way to go, and they were getting a lot of attention from other students. Male teachers however came up to my prof and confessed that they don't know where their eyes could safely land on so they've been ignoring the girls in class. It took a few weeks but my prof managed to get them to wear other kinds of clothing.

There's a bit of a double speak when it comes to children. We tend to actively discourage them from doing or being one thing on one hand but then we indirectly approve of the opposite on the other. Anyone who watched Little Miss Sunshine would know what I mean (I'm thinking of the beauty pageant scene.) Little girls are often dressed up in a sexualized way but we don't like to think of them as sexual beings. We expect them not to be sexual but we turn around and approve of a sexually charged media. We tell them that it's what's inside that matters but then we bring out the skinny sexualized models.

On a related note…I never had problems buying conservative clothing. But I live in a city so there are a lot more choices here.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:23AM
ccs1989 at 5:13PM, Oct. 21, 2006
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I blame MTV.
http://ccs1989.deviantart.com

“If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.”
-Henry David Thoreau, Walden
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:38AM
LIZARD_B1TE at 5:41PM, Oct. 21, 2006
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ccs1989
I blame MTV.

I blame everything on MTV.
MTV is the devil.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:36PM
Aussie_kid at 6:49PM, Oct. 21, 2006
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Black_Kitty
My prof once told us this semi-amusing story. There are these two girls in a school she worked in that were wearing really sexualized outfits. They were trying to fit in, figured this was the way to go, and they were getting a lot of attention from other students. Male teachers however came up to my prof and confessed that they don't know where their eyes could safely land on so they've been ignoring the girls in class. It took a few weeks but my prof managed to get them to wear other kinds of clothing.

That's another big problem I have.

Amy runs into her friends from school and they're wearing low-cut tops, push up bras, whatever and the second my eyes deviate to the areas they wish to expose, I get yelled at for being a pervert (A few times I was just looking at the floor)

Seriously, if girls don't want us looking there, why do they wear this stuff?
Insanity Complex: We may not be insane, but we like to think we are
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:11AM
ozoneocean at 7:24PM, Oct. 21, 2006
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Aussie_kid
Seriously, if girls don't want us looking there, why do they wear this stuff?
Well it's not just about impressing males, it's about competing with other girls.
Black Kitty
Little girls are often dressed up in a sexualized way but we don't like to think of them as sexual beings. We expect them not to be sexual but we turn around and approve of a sexually charged media. We tell them that it's what's inside that matters but then we bring out the skinny sexualized models.
Well they shouldn't be dressed in a sexualised way to start with, ewwww. Those beauty pagents are extreme cases of parents (and grand parents) treating these tiny children like a cross between a living Barbie Doll and a prize winning show dog. It's seriously twisted in my opinion, they're real “Jerry Springer” cases.

And as for sexy models, is that really something kids focus on and think about? I always thought it was more about prettiness… Most little girls would rather dress in some kind of pseudo-Baroque fairytail dress than something Pamela Anderson would wear. When I was a little boy I would rather have been a pirate than a bare chested muscleman model… Kids just think differently.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:24PM
Black_Kitty at 8:02PM, Oct. 21, 2006
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ozoneocean
And as for sexy models, is that really something kids focus on and think about? I always thought it was more about prettiness… Most little girls would rather dress in some kind of pseudo-Baroque fairytail dress than something Pamela Anderson would wear. When I was a little boy I would rather have been a pirate than a bare chested muscleman model… Kids just think differently.

Not quite sure honestly. I think the question becomes whether we like to think they would rather dress up in big poofy dresses or they actually do want to only dress up in big poofy dresses.

Mind you, I'm not suggesting that 4 year olds like to run around flashing their chest and realizing the possible sexual meaning behind that. But I think we send kids mixed signals by communicating to them contridictory messages. We may not say it outright or intentionally and they may not process it logically (and be able to relay back to you the reasoning) but they do imitate.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:23AM
ozoneocean at 9:03PM, Oct. 21, 2006
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Black_Kitty
Not quite sure honestly. I think the question becomes whether we like to think they would rather dress up in big poofy dresses or they actually do want to only dress up in big poofy dresses.
Well that's exactly what I was saying, but the other way around. :)
They would seem to want to dress that way (“poofy” dresses), but adults have different ideas of prettiness… I contend that it's the parents that turn them towards to sexualised stuff. Kids imitate things, yes, but they more drawn to idealised fantasy than flashy sexiness.
(although if flashy sexiness is all they see, obviously that will have a different result.)

It's true that kids pick a lot up from what they see around them; that's why little girls who're only given “boy's toys” and little boys who're only given “girls toys” will still tend to fall into the same old gender roles and wish to aquire and play with toys “proper” to their sex: The behaviour of adults media, other children, and everything around them works as an influence on behavioral development compared to which primitive experiments with toy substitution are rather pathetic.

But the direct influence of alluring sexualised media can not be very strong, simply because young children don't pick up on the same cues as adults (wet lips, cleavage, etc. and I dunno what for women… Tight buttocks? Hard muscled torsos?) which are often the only aspects of such media that are of any interest in that respect. Their brains just aren't capable of reading what they see in the same way that ours do. There are real physical, chemical changes that have yet to take place, as well as years of experience, in order for that to happen
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:24PM
Hawk at 12:24PM, Oct. 22, 2006
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This kind of reminds me of a Gigcast I listened to. It involved a lady who was pressing for better representation of women in comics, and it was a pretty interesting discussion. I agreed with what the lady had to say in everything except one point

They were talking about the outfits women in comics wear, and on interviewer suggested maybe artists should put women in more dignified and less-sexual costumes. However, this lady suggested that instead, women should be able to wear whatever they want and not be thought of as sexual objects.

And I fully disagree with that. She fails to realize just how powerful a man's hormones are. It would be much easier for a girl to wear a skirt that actually covers her unmentionables than for all the men around her to reprogram their inner chemistry. Women should know the intended effects of their wardrobe on men. I think most do and it's why they wear what they wear.

And Aussie_kid, kudos to you for having integrity even when some snarky employee calls you a “prude”. It's sad to see what today's media is doing to children. The idea of a little girl aspiring to be like Paris Hilton makes me sick inside.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:45PM
ccs1989 at 12:50PM, Oct. 22, 2006
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It's also terrible how this idea of “thinness” and not “healthiness” is so rampant. I would really like to punch the fashion industry in the face for their “clothes-hanger girl” image they've been peddling. Women aren't just some thin thing you throw some designer shit on. What happened to substance?
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“If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.”
-Henry David Thoreau, Walden
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:38AM
Rich at 1:10PM, Oct. 22, 2006
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ccs1989
It's also terrible how this idea of “thinness” and not “healthiness” is so rampant. What happened to substance?

A girl gains 10 pounds and now weighs 160lbs. She sees the magazines with Britney Spears and Paris Hilton on them. She spazzes out thinking she is sickeningly fat for not being a fucking toothpick. She contemplates suicide (cause you can't get through life if you're fat!), and probably goes through with it.

As far as I'm concerned, the typical supermodel toothpick look is fucking nasty. The magazines can keep their girls who all look the same and weigh virtually nothing. Anyone who can get off to those clone-looking bitches has some serious fucking issues.

Hawk
They were talking about the outfits women in comics wear, and on interviewer suggested maybe artists should put women in more dignified and less-sexual costumes. However, this lady suggested that instead, women should be able to wear whatever they want and not be thought of as sexual objects.

If someone wants to dress like a slut, I say treat them like a slut. Women's rights my ass! They want to parade around in skirts that show their butt and they expect people to ignore it?

How about I start wearing nothing but leather and ass-less pants and demand people not look at me as gay? Or how about I wear baggy jeans and FUBU clothes and demand people not call me a wigger?
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:06PM
ozoneocean at 2:19PM, Oct. 22, 2006
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Rich
If someone wants to dress like a slut, I say treat them like a slut. Women's rights my ass! They want to parade around in skirts that show their butt and they expect people to ignore it?
I don't like where this is going… And what exactly is a “slut” then? And what's so bad about being one anyway? This is wrong, not just for the suggestion we should treat women badly because of the way they dress, but also because I quite like to see people dress like that!
But yeah, as Hawke says, they have to accept the sexual baggage, they're adults afterall. -And for that very reason, children should NOT dress that way.
Rich
How about I start wearing nothing but leather and ass-less pants and demand people not look at me as gay?
Come on Rich, don't think we don't know… ;)
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:24PM
SheaSummers at 2:55PM, Oct. 22, 2006
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Yeah, it's pretty gross what these kids are wearing and saying. Have you guys watched commercials for this new line of toys called BRATZ? Man, even their baby's are whored out to the extreme. With messages like these being sent to children at such young ages, it's really hard to keep a cleaner outlook on life. Not just with girls either, I know a lot of boys who are between 9 and 12 that talk about the want of fingering girls and wanting to lose their virginity before they turn 16 or something. I really hope parents are pushing their kids to stay modest…

And I totally agree with Ozoneocean:

Islam doesn't tell women to cover up, it's COMPLETELY a societal thing. Islam doesn't tell women to stay home and cook and clean or cover up all the time, it's just a bunch of douche bag guys that got together one day and thought up these rules. My mom got a lot of crap for wearing skirts and jeans from conservative Muslim ladies when she used to pick me up from school… my mom didn't care, she knew she did nothing wrong.
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ccs1989 at 2:59PM, Oct. 22, 2006
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Rich
If someone wants to dress like a slut, I say treat them like a slut. Women's rights my ass! They want to parade around in skirts that show their butt and they expect people to ignore it?


It's true that it doesn't make a lot of sense, but in most cases they wear these clothes to compete with other girls, and the reason they wear the clothes in the first place is because TV and other medias influence them. And when one person who's popular but doesn't have any common sense starts wearing something, others will follow suit.

Of course there's more hypocrisy in the whole ‘slut’ thing. If a man has sex, he can brag about it and high-five his pals, etc. But when a girl has sex she's a “slut”.

These are complex social issues.
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“If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.”
-Henry David Thoreau, Walden
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:38AM
Rich at 3:00PM, Oct. 22, 2006
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Someone
This is wrong, not just for the suggestion we should treat women badly because of the way they dress, but also because I quite like to see people dress like that!

Normally I'd NEVER judge someone by how they dress, but skanky clothes are an exception. I'm pretty lenient on what I'd deem a slut. And typically if you got some bitch with too much make-up on, a tanktop where her tits are practically falling out, a skirt that doesn't even cover up her underwear, and knee high boots, I'd say that's a slut.

And the parents that let girls dress like this are fucking assholes. I don't even want to hear that bullshit “oh, but she won't listen to me” or “i dont wana stop my daughter from expressing myself”. If a parent doesn't have a fucking backbone, then they should have their children taken from them. And letting your daughter dress like a skank shows a lack of a backbone to me.

Besides, I never said my point of view was right for everyone. I am a very cynical person, so I am not surprised it offends you.

Someone
It's true that it doesn't make a lot of sense, but in most cases they wear these clothes to compete with other girls, and the reason they wear the clothes in the first place is because TV and other medias influence them. And when one person who's popular but doesn't have any common sense starts wearing something, others will follow suit.

People who are so strongly influenced by the media disgust me to no end. All they are are puppets. And unless they stop listening to the media, that's all they'll ever be.

Someone
Of course there's more hypocrisy in the whole ‘slut’ thing. If a man has sex, he can brag about it and high-five his pals, etc. But when a girl has sex she's a “slut”.

Unfortunately that IS how society works things. I can't stand the thought of sex as it is, so I look down on men who run around fucking anyone they can.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:06PM
ozoneocean at 3:38PM, Oct. 22, 2006
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It would help if you said who you were quoting. :)
No, the “slut” label is wrong. I totally dissagree with that in every way.

And it's really important that we make a clear distinction about who we're discussing. Under 10's? Under 14? 16? 18?
Because the factors are totally different; For one, when puberty hits, these girls are dressing for other reasons; for another, when girls are at least 16 they can start to have total control over what they wear, without parental intervention.
I don't think any of us here have a right to have any say as to what those girls can and cannot wear.
My only concern is with parents foisting sexy clothes on young kids.

If you're setting yourself up as some kind of “slut judge”, you can count me out. :)
Unless you're a memeber of some kind of conservative religion that specifically holds strong beliefs concerning such things, I find that a pretty poor attitude. :/

I say yes to more bums and boobs! Even so, the limit for my interest is 20+, nothing under that.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:24PM
Rich at 3:52PM, Oct. 22, 2006
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ozoneocean
Unless you're a memeber of some kind of conservative religion that specifically holds strong beliefs concerning such things, I find that a pretty poor attitude. :/

I'm agnostic. And my views are not poor, they just clash with your views. And calling them poor unless they have a religion to back them up outright insults me. Why does it matter where my beliefs come from? Religion or no religion, they are still my beliefs nonetheless.

ozone
when girls are at least 16 they can start to have total control over what they wear, without parental intervention.

Are they under 18? Do they live in their parents' house? If yes is answered to either of them, then no, they shouldn't have total control. I understand wearing what they want, but the parents have full right to put down restrictions as long as the kid is under 18 or living in their house.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:06PM
ozoneocean at 4:22PM, Oct. 22, 2006
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Rich
I'm agnostic. And my views are not poor, they just clash with your views.
I don't care what your religion is, just why you feel a need to judge based on dress. Strong religious views can at least make that a bit more understandable.
Rich
Are they under 18? Do they live in their parents' house?
You misunderstand me. These are girls who understand what they wear and why they wear it. Plus, they can dress themselves and buy their own clothes. :)

The only other people who have a say in that case are their families (unless they're part of a conservative community), not us. And what their families say about it is up to them, not us. ;)
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:24PM
Steve Cloud at 4:54PM, Oct. 22, 2006
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Yes, these facts are quite disturbing…

Young women may dress how they want, if they want to look like a street hooker, fine.
I might have a problem with standing near her but I wouldn't just blurt it out.

But when you see a girl under 10 years and under, wearing a G STRING in the same manner as a hooker, thats when I almost puke inside.
And who the HELL said we shouldnt blame the companies? Everyone is to blame for this,
The Girls, The Parents, The Media and the Companies!

The Companies MAKE these things, and then they get flooded with demands for more.
And they are very sick to make babies that are straight from a pedophile's dream.

But the girls can also be blamed, no, they arent innocents under the forces of the media and the companies, they can choose, thats right, they can choose what they want to wear. And with proper discipline, they'd know how to avoid those things. WHich is for the better, if you ask me, sexual clothing is made for bedrooms, danceclubs, stripclubs and hookers.

The parents are also to blame.
For one, when they say “NO” they intimidate the child to do it more, what they should do is never bring that child shopping again, ever.
But when you intimidate a child, it sparks rebellion, so another reason they may do this is to rebel against their parents.
Also, Girls arent disciplined as much as boys if you ask me. Which makes them think they can do everything they want and turns them into Princess Bitchfaces.

But some are disciplined, but still end up like this.

Thats because they're being surrounded by Media and Peer Pressure.
Its a force thats too hard to stop, and the only way to do it is to most likely launch a crusade against Bratz and Offensive Children's Clothings and of course, the Companies that make them.
But for me, regardless of how I feel, I dont really care if they dress like sluts, it just outlines their future to me if they keep wearing it. [getting raped sounds likely, and then the parents wonder WHY was their child raped and murdered by that pedophile!
Bah!


If you ask me, Modesty has flown right out the window and landed on the road and been run over by a semi-trailer.
I mean soon they'll be making NIPPLE SENSITIVE BARBIE!
Ugh… I just made myself imagine it…
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:58PM
ozoneocean at 5:23PM, Oct. 22, 2006
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…This reminds me of the videogame violence debate. I think you're over-reacting and blaming the wrong people.
Who has responsibiliy here? Ask yourself that. Up until a certain age parents have responsibility for their children, NOT clothing companies, NOT the children's friends, NOT models, and NOT the media.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:24PM
Steve Cloud at 5:30PM, Oct. 22, 2006
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Im blaming society in general…

Everyone is to blame, you cant deny that each one of these things has an impact on the children. And I'd say if they werent there, there wouldnt be a problem.

And Im not overreacting , thats how I feel about these things, these are my oppinions.

And the companies do have a responsibility, as much as you deny it, they supply us with the clothing that our children wear! The models are role models for most girls.
And their friends make them feel left out until they buy these things to be ‘popular’
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:58PM
ozoneocean at 5:43PM, Oct. 22, 2006
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There are other companies, there is always simple choice. :) It's irrelevent what they sell anyway: The parents have the responsibility. They're the one's buying the clothes when they shouldn't. It all comes down to that.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:24PM
Steve Cloud at 5:49PM, Oct. 22, 2006
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Good point.

But if they didnt make the clothes, we wouldnt have a problem.

So I still blame society, but parents should be the most responsible.
But I must say, it must be hard to say ‘No’ when you have a child screaming at the top of their lungs. Makes 'em look like a child abductor or something.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:58PM
Zenstrive at 6:14PM, Oct. 22, 2006
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ozoneocean
Zenstrive
submit to the way of Islam and its honorable rule of obligating female humans to cover all but face and hands.
there are swimming suits that fit the requirements too :)
Islam doesn't demand that. Out of the 100's of Millions of Muslims in the world, not many actually practise that. It's a cultural practise that's not your own, get over it. Christianity has sects that do exactly the same thing, as does Judaism and probably others as well.

I agree with you Aussie Kid. I don't think it's a healthy thing that children are wearing clothes that were designed to make adults more sexually attractive. That's quite nasty actually. There are some groups that blame the producers and the retailers that buy from them, but that's moronic, they only produce and stock what sells. The problem is the demand. WHY is there a demand to sexualise young children? The parents who buy these clothes need to have a long hard look at themselves.

oh yes Islam does demand that. But Islam also able to tell them to “take it slowly” and “be hopeful that inspirations will come to you, girl”.

as for the rest of religions and faiths that use veils, i think their veils have to be faith-specific forms and colors.

Demand to sexualise young children? hmm..lets see..perhaps it is a way for mothers to make their little girls to fall to the same traps that have eaten them earlier?
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:55PM

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