General Discussion

More Adverts?
maciapaladin at 3:21PM, June 28, 2007
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I'm somewhat confused by the decision to ADD a banner right UNDER everyone's comic and REMOVE a banner from the bottom. If the goal was MORE advertising real-estate, then you've defeated the purpose. Top and bottom ads have been the mainstay of the Internet since… well, the beginning of the internet. By taking away the bottom ad and replacing it with a middle one, it kinda makes the whole “prime real-estate” argument a whitewash.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:50PM
silentkitty at 3:40PM, June 28, 2007
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I'm also a little confused about the removal of the ad on the bottom - I didn't hear anyone complaining about that one whatsoever (in fact, most people seemed to be saying they were fine with that one and the top one), so I don't really see it as part of any sort of “compromise”.

As for it not being centered now - that actually drives me batty, but it could just be because I like centered things. :p Everything in my layout is centered except that ad now, and it makes me twitch every time I see it. However, I'm willing to accept that it's just me with that particular problem.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:37PM
ozoneocean at 4:11PM, June 28, 2007
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maciapaladin
By taking away the bottom ad and replacing it with a middle one, it kinda makes the whole “prime real-estate” argument a whitewash.
It's a compromise: by removing the bottom add which likely wasn't such a great placement anyway, the middle add (which is a much better placement from an advertising point of view) has in a sense been traded for the bottom one. It shows a spirit of give and take- this change has been made to try and appease all the people here who've voiced their say on the matter. :)

That's a fairly significant win, I wouldn't want to give that one away so easily…
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:27PM
silentkitty at 4:55PM, June 28, 2007
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ozoneocean
It's a compromise: by removing the bottom add which likely wasn't such a great placement anyway, the middle add (which is a much better placement from an advertising point of view) has in a sense been traded for the bottom one. It shows a spirit of give and take- this change has been made to try and appease all the people here who've voiced their say on the matter. :)

That's a fairly significant win, I wouldn't want to give that one away so easily…

But the bottom one wasn't bothering anyone. In fact, I hardly even noticed it was there most of the time, which, of course, means that it wasn't really a very good spot for an ad, which is what I'm sure the point is, and why it was removed so easily. =p I wouldn't call it a “significant win” by a long stretch. I'm not really “appeased” by a compromise that involves removing something that nobody was complaining about and not really doing much with the thing that everyone was (except pushing it off-center, which I still don't really understand the point of). =p

The only real compromise I saw was the “sponsor” tags being put around it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad that they're listening. I just don't think that this was much of a deal in the grand scheme of things, lol.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:37PM
Sam_Charette at 4:57PM, June 28, 2007
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ozoneocean
That's a fairly significant win, I wouldn't want to give that one away so easily…


I hate to break it to you, Ozone, but that's not a win at all. That's like going to ask your boss for a raise, and accepting a spiffy title instead. It's relatively meaningless, and you didn't get anything that you wanted.

People didn't mind the ad there, so giving that up for a far worse placement is actually a huge loss. You gave up something you didn't care about in order to get something that you hate. More importantly, as you said it wasn't a great advertising spot anyway, so platinum doesn't really care about it either.

For you: +3 win, -150 loss for a net of -147.
For them: +50 win, -5 loss for a net of +45.

It's totally understandable to want to make as much money from DD as possible, but the people are angry with the placement of one ad more than they are the number of ads, and this crumb of a gesture is only meant to placate those who can't see it for what it is.

That's not a shot at Dylan, or at Platinum, because I do think that they are trying hard to find a good compromise at all, and I applaud their efforts. I'm just saying it ain't a diamond that they gave you there. It's a piece of glass.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:22PM
maciapaladin at 5:07PM, June 28, 2007
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Agreed. It's a little like how the United States gave up their aging and obsolete Jupiter Missile bases on Turkey to help the Soviet Union save face in the 1960's. Drunk Duck gave up something they didn't need/receive benefit from in exchange for something that, while possibly improving ad revenue, does nothing for the community members who's content brings people here to look at advertising in the first place. I don't see the compromise, because there is none.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:50PM
madscott at 5:13PM, June 28, 2007
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silentkitty
But the bottom one wasn't bothering anyone. In fact, I hardly even noticed it was there most of the time

I think you answered your own question.

It was bad (business) placement to put it at the bottom where no one can see it and not many would want to buy that ad space (would you have paid for that spot).

It's like trying to sell ad space on the bottom of your shoe.

Taking it off the bottom will help with load times on the pages and keep bandwidth down on the whole site.

Please Read MadScott
And Please Visit http://www.nightgig.com
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:50PM
silentkitty at 5:17PM, June 28, 2007
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madscott
silentkitty
But the bottom one wasn't bothering anyone. In fact, I hardly even noticed it was there most of the time

I think you answered your own question.

Yes, I answered my own question in the continuation of my sentence. =p I understand completely why it was removed.

me :3
But the bottom one wasn't bothering anyone. In fact, I hardly even noticed it was there most of the time, which, of course, means that it wasn't really a very good spot for an ad, which is what I'm sure the point is, and why it was removed so easily.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:37PM
maciapaladin at 5:22PM, June 28, 2007
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madscott
Taking it off the bottom will help with load times on the pages and keep bandwidth down on the whole site.

A negligible gain. Ad banners are deliberately created to be small. It would be equivalent to me taking the Spam Poison link off my old homepage. Ads generally do not significantly affect load-times. I don't notice any difference now because the webpage load was counter-balanced by adding a new banner. 1-1+1=1.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:50PM
maritalbliss at 5:23PM, June 28, 2007
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Yeah, I don't feel it's a “win” either. It's a pathetic attempt at placation that falls far, far short. I am sorely disappointed.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:53PM
SteveMyers22 at 2:07AM, June 29, 2007
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Some ideas:

Can we maybe have some layout control over the ad?

Like my comic is a super hero comic. So when Hero By Night's in the adspace, it kind of looks consistent with my page. Heck, The Gods of Arr-Kellan is in my faves too, so even that looks alright down there. And Entourage is one of my favorite shows on TV so I don't have a problem with the HBO ad on my page. So like what if we could tic off a selection of ads that could rotate there? I don't know how do-able that is. Just saying that, I don't have a problem with Entourage being advertised on my page or Hero By Night. But like I kind of loathe Blizzard and World of Warcraft these days. So it'd be cool to have a little say in which ads do end up there. If possible. Maybe.

Just tossing that out there for consideration.

Also maybe give folks the ability to have it justified the way they want it (left, right or centered) so they don't get all freaked by having one thing out of place on the page, that one thing being the thing they have no control over.

last edited on July 14, 2011 3:58PM
Aurora Moon at 3:04AM, June 29, 2007
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SteveMyers22
Some ideas:

Can we maybe have some layout control over the ad?

Like my comic is a super hero comic. So when Hero By Night's in the adspace, it kind of looks consistent with my page. Heck, The Gods of Arr-Kellan is in my faves too, so even that looks alright down there. And Entourage is one of my favorite shows on TV so I don't have a problem with the HBO ad on my page. So like what if we could tic off a selection of ads that could rotate there? I don't know how do-able that is. Just saying that, I don't have a problem with Entourage being advertised on my page or Hero By Night. But like I kind of loathe Blizzard and World of Warcraft these days. So it'd be cool to have a little say in which ads do end up there. If possible. Maybe.

Just tossing that out there for consideration.

Also maybe give folks the ability to have it justified the way they want it (left, right or centered) so they don't get all freaked by having one thing out of place on the page, that one thing being the thing they have no control over.


Yeah, that makes sense.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:10AM
Sam_Charette at 4:42AM, June 29, 2007
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Though the ad space is likely intended for money-making ads, if it WERE to remain strictly for internal advertising, why not make the ads a random choice from the comics that the owner has in their favourite list? That way the ad will definitely be endorsed by the owner.

Again, though, I highly doubt that it will stay as internal only, as with how much people dislike it, it's worth less to have it there only showing DD comics than it is to remove it altogether.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:22PM
Roguehill at 8:23AM, June 29, 2007
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djcoffman
Maybe DD can setup a “pay” host side, that's like cheap to not have ads run on your templates? I don't know, it's up to them of course, but yeah, they're paying a lot for shows and they don't have much merchandise, so what's the big deal in selling some ad space? I'm sure they'll figure out placement as they go. Chill!

Heh heh heh. Forgive me for saying so, DJ, but that's easy for you to say. You've moved into print, so your webcomic site is merely advertising. Heck, you've even said that your goal is to just become a “recognized writer”, not to do Hero by Night (which you don't own anymore, anyway). So what does a single, missplaced ad do to affect your efforts? Very little.

However, for those folks whose webcomic IS their focus, having a malplaced ad screws the pooch. I doubt you'd sing the same song if Platinum was printing “Hero by Night” with all of the covers upside down to promote their “We'll Flip for our readers!” campaign. I mean, what's to complain about, right? It's still the cover you made..just upside down. Don't worry, they'll figure out placement as they go.

GHOST ZERO
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:09PM
Evil Emperor Nick at 10:50AM, June 29, 2007
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Alright I know some of this has been said before but I feel they clearly need to be said again.

Face facts people

1. The more noticable and frequented add space is the more valuable it is. So any suggestion to move add space where it won't be noticed is pretty pointless since it devalues the space to almost nothing. You are complaining that adds here are noticable, well adds need to be noticable in order for them to effective.

2. The main page is one of the least hit pages. Seriously never saw the Deviant Art main page until my girl friend pointed out that there was a bunch of smut on it. Seriously I didn't even know it was there. This is rather common with art communities. People go right to the content, the book mark the pages and skip the main page. I hate 8-bit theater's set up since it doesn't go right to the comic like most site and skip his blog whenever I can. So trying to cram all the adds into the main pages isn't going to work. While those have some value it is far less then putting them on a comics page.

3. You can't have it both ways. Either you want comic site that offers new features, new services and strives to be more then a normal hosting site, or you don't. Adds, to be blunt, are the only thing that allows this site to be more then it was. If you make the adds optional, move the adds to less noticable spots, allow users to move them, split the profits, etc. etc. you are watering down or eliminating DD limited profits which means are eliminating its ability to do new things by taking away its resources. There are lots of comic sites that will JUST host your comic. DD is trying to do more then that and I for one applaude their efforts. Having gotten to work a convention for free was huge and frankly I'm more then willing to put up with a few add to see DD games developed, the comic creator's contest keep going, seeing more web comics move to print and vise-versa, conventions continued to be offered, DD features added, and perhaps most importantly to keep the site from crashing again. I don't know how many of you were here a few years ago but the site was crashing constantly because DD could only afford the cheapest hosting. DD hasn't crashed in over a year and adds are big part of that.

4. Just because DD needs adds doesn't mean they are doing just anything for money. DD gave free add time to the recent DD Civil War Event. Doing that really scored them a few points in my book to promote an internal event and strengthen the community.

5. DD is trying to give web comics a good name. I know a lot of you are really trying with your web comics and would like to be taken seriously and some day see your comic on a semi-pro or even pro level. One of the things DD is doing with this add money is trying to get DD and by association the DD comunity some industry recognition. Right now people really put down web comics, it is hard to do one seriously. Even comics like Errant Story sometimes have to fight for every cent to keep in business. DD is trying to get web comics and you the creators taken seriously, and honestly adds help that in two ways. First it gives them money to work with, and second the adds themselves are a form of industry advancement. People seriously take a notice when a big company shells out money to advertise on your site. It shows the web comics are a viable medium for the industry and not just a bunch of amatures who couldn't make it into print. Some web comics get more reader each day then Batman comics sell in a month, however there is almost no awareness of web comics outside of our own micro-communities and we are openly put down by the comic industry. If we keep doing the same thing everyone else is doing, namely offering mostly add free hosting and the bear minimum needed for hosting that isn't going to change.

6. DD has a lot of competition to deal with and it ultimately helps your comic for them to seperate themselves from the pack. You've all mentioned (and or threated to go to) other hosting sites. The truth is anyone with a couple of bucks and limited amount of computer skills can set up a hosting site today. Platnium Studios and Drunk Duck obviously want to do what they can to make better and better known/though of then other hosting sites and generate more traffic which means lots more potential readers for your comic. Now it might be that adds are taking away from that goal making us look junky but so far I see a lot of creators complaining but almost no readers upset about this change. I know my hits have been uneffected by the adds.

7. DD is listening. That fact that we have Volts here, the guy who runs the site, talking to us and trying to listen, respond, and appease our concerns is rather unique. You don't get that one and one level with most sites. In short if we can come up with better ideas, suggestion, and alternative there is a direct way to communicate to the powers that be. That said lets try and use that wisely so they don't disappear the way they have on places. Come people try and make some reasonable suggestions and consider the ramifications of your requests. Marine you were complaining about having missed the Philly convention and as well you should because that was a really wonderful experience. Do you really hate the adds so much you want to give up the chance to ever experience that?

8. Welcome to the real world of advertising. You know when actors get highered on a show they don't get to choose the adds that run between the show. Contestants on game shows don't get to decide who the host mentions as the shows sponsor. People calling into the radio station with requests don't get to request the commerical after their song is over. Yet none of these parties feel like they are endorcing a product just because adds are involved. I seriously think that it is a bit rediclous to assume people are going to thing you are endorcing a particular add just because it shows up on this site. How dumb do you think your readers are? I for one know my readers are smart enough to put two and two together and realise that is a site add. I've yet to see some poor confused reader asking “Oh why my beloved comic creator are you endorsing WoW?”

9. The people have a point about the content of some adds. What it the point of having an comic that ‘E for Everyone’ when some chicks boobs are flapping all over the bottom of the comic. Seriously we've got the technology to see that E for Everyone comics run different adds that comics with M for Mature, we really should take advantage of this fact. I think it might actually make our adds more effective.

10. Most of you have made your point already. You know I see mostly the same people posting in the same threads over and over again. Make your point and wait and see what happens before coming back for round 2. I don't know about you but when I get harrassed I tend to get a little bit ticked off. I don't think sticking it to Volts 24/7 is really going make the situtation better. Give the man a chance to make some changes before you bite his head off again. More then likely Volts can't change certain things now even if he wanted to because of legal obligations. If you promise someone add space in a certain place for ten days you legally have to provide it.

Now that said there are a few adds I think need to be adjusted. First I think the column add in the main page blog would probably work better as a divider between the two top lists provided it wasn't to obnoxious and could be made to fit comfortably. Second I think the add in the search results needs to be structured better. Right now it is throwing off the search results in a very bothersome way. I don't mind an add there but either adjust the add or the results sizes so it doesn't display the results in such a disjointed format.

I'm not saying take this laying down people if you are upset but try to be a little realistic and look at the big picture too. You seem to be so caught up in your ‘outrage’ that you are missing the big picture, though I'm sure you think that is because the adds are covering it.

-Empire Out

last edited on July 14, 2011 12:23PM
Sam_Charette at 11:44AM, June 29, 2007
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Evil Emperor Nick
8. Welcome to the real world of advertising. You know when actors get highered on a show they don't get to choose the adds that run between the show. Contestants on game shows don't get to decide who the host mentions as the shows sponsor. People calling into the radio station with requests don't get to request the commerical after their song is over. Yet none of these parties feel like they are endorcing a product just because adds are involved. I seriously think that it is a bit rediclous to assume people are going to thing you are endorcing a particular add just because it shows up on this site. How dumb do you think your readers are? I for one know my readers are smart enough to put two and two together and realise that is a site add. I've yet to see some poor confused reader asking “Oh why my beloved comic creator are you endorsing WoW?”

Your examples are entirely out of context. If the ad is at the top of the page, everyone will definitely see it for sure. If it's right under the comic page, everyone will see it as well, but now it's more personally attached to the author.

It's more like a game show where the contestant has to wear a big sign on them saying “KISS! You thought you knew them, well think again!”. It's not the fact that the ad is used, it's the fact that they're hanging it around your neck for all to view, and that makes you look like you endorse it.

The actor isn't a good example either, as they aren't the creator. They didn't write the script. They didn't build the sets. They didn't cast it, do wardrobe, direct, produce or anything. A comic is 100% the creation of the owner, and as such they have a much more personal interest in what goes on.

And for the radio call in, the ads after the spot isn't how this is. It's more like the radio personality saying “This message brought to you by match.com, where your lonely nights can be filled” after EVERYTHING YOU SAY :)

Host: “So, how do you feel about proposition 21?”
You: “Well I'm not too sure I like it.”
Host: “This message brought to you buy blizzard, the makers of WoW. So what is it that you don't like?”
You: “Well, I have to say that I think it's going to cost the city too much money.”
Host: “Cat smell stinking up your house? Try Smell-Away, from SniffCo. So what would you do to reduce the costs?”

etc


These aren't just commercials that people are annoyed with, and that is proven by the fact that no one was that annoyed until now. They were fine before, and now not, so that means that it's the intrusiveness of the ad, and not the ad itself, that is the issue.

It's definitely cool that they use part of the money to help promote the comics here. Buying booths for DD artists is awesome. Just remember, though, that the more of this that happens, the more money they have to make off of you. They couldn't likely buy booths for 1,000 people if that many decided to take them up on the offer at one time, and even if they could they would have to start putting way more ads to recoup their losses.

Since it's the users here that are the vessel through which money is earned, DD should talk with them first before hanging a sign around their necks to endorse something totally unrelated to them.

Again, I feel like I'm bashing DD/PS/Dylan, but I'm not. DD has a great thing going here, and Dylan is an awesome guy. It's just that putting ads there looks really sleazy, and that's just not representative of what they really are.

Also, don't tell me that ads don't make a site less professional. How many of us here are particularly enamored with the way that geocities works in that respect? I don't think there is a person out there who will take a site seriously when they see it's hosted there. If you stick ads everywhere, your site looks less like a site for you and your comic, and more of a part of a page for you, and a part of the page for other people.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:22PM
Volte6 at 11:53AM, June 29, 2007
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Well since there is just way too much to even try to keep up, let me discount one apparent misunderstanding…

The placement of the advertisement is NOT meant to show endorsement by a comic owner at all, hence why we're trying to make it stand out more as an advertisement ( says sponsor around it right now ). I'm open to suggestions as to how to do that more effectively, given it's placement. The placement of the ad is because the user must pass from the comic page, over the ad, and to the navigation in 99% of the cases, which advertisers apparently find to be the most ideal circumstance. Unfortunately people have subconsciously been trained to not even see ads such as those at the top of the page, and so they are not considered as valuable.

I don't understand the point of people trying to debate the reasoning of us putting it there… I'm telling you exactly why, there is no hidden agenda or lies involved. This is in fact the exact reason it's being put there. So PLEASE stop trying to come up with theories about why our rational is incorrect. Especially since our placement is directly in reaction to advertiser dialog.

I would LOVE an alternative that yielded the same results. I really would… and we are looking at some potential opportunities that will hopefully do away with the need for stuff like this, but fast as the internet may be, this is going to take a little bit of time to work out.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:43PM
Sam_Charette at 12:26PM, June 29, 2007
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My brain is broken….

… someone tried to come up with reasons why you would do this other than because it's a good spot? I can't imagine why anyone would think that…. I must have totally missed that (or been on drugs or something, which today could certainly be the situation :) )

And no one is saying that the ad below the comic is meant to show endorsement from the comic creator. Even though I dislike the placement of the ad, I'd argue with anyone that said that you were trying to be underhanded by doing it. It's not an intentional connection, but it is one that is easily made by many.

Given how good a placing it is for the advertiser, and given the very good point you make about banner ads on the top, I can't really see there being much of an alternative where you can keep the ad and still distance it enough for people who dislike the location to be ok with it.

A couple of suggestions I can make are:
1) As someone else said, let the owner choose the alignment.
2) Always keep the same sized ad. Not that you haven't, nor weren't going to, but changing the ad size in either direction can screw up someone's template.
3) Separate the ad from the comic. If you can put an empty line between the page's command bar and the ad then, even though it still is immediately after the page, it doesn't feel as “attached” to me.
4) Rather than just “sponsor”, put “Drunk Duck Sponsor” or something similar. This will show quite specifically that it's a DD thing, and not a comic owner thing.

I think with those 4 you could probably come as close as you can to keeping it there, and at the same time distancing it from the owner, without upsetting anyone.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:22PM
Evil Emperor Nick at 12:51PM, June 29, 2007
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Sam_Charette
Your examples are entirely out of context. If the ad is at the top of the page, everyone will definitely see it for sure. If it's right under the comic page, everyone will see it as well, but now it's more personally attached to the author.

It's more like a game show where the contestant has to wear a big sign on them saying “KISS! You thought you knew them, well think again!”. It's not the fact that the ad is used, it's the fact that they're hanging it around your neck for all to view, and that makes you look like you endorse it.

….

Also, don't tell me that ads don't make a site less professional. How many of us here are particularly enamored with the way that geocities works in that respect? I don't think there is a person out there who will take a site seriously when they see it's hosted there. If you stick ads everywhere, your site looks less like a site for you and your comic, and more of a part of a page for you, and a part of the page for other people.
No one is making you put things in your art which is your content. No one is making you put a WoW troll in your comic. Just as a normal comerical is directly following the show so to is this add directly following your page which is the context. DD isn't projecting its adds into your comic any more then a TV comercial is be coming in the middle of show.

Secondly people were annoyed when DD first started adds, they just got used to them and stopped complaining.

Thirdly I will in fact telling you as someone who studied marketing as part of communications for four years In college that the success of your adds directly relates into your standing in the business community & industry at large. In communications there are different “publics” or different groups you want to have different impressions of you. And while adds might not always make creators happy they have a totally different effect on business people. The type who publish comics I might add. You are only looking at this from one view point.

Of course you have to be concerned how dominant your adds are in your publication but consider this; News papers don't have any adds on their front page the equivalent of our main page. They have them in the back pages directly next to the second half of front page articles. The same with magazines the covers are add free and ads are entangled with the content. Following that industry standard to look most proffessional we really should remove all adds from the main page and exlusively put adds which are entwined into the content of the comics much like you are complaining about. Readers, usually, are not that bothered by it as long as it doesn't cover the content or disrupt the experience ala pop up adds. Just look at Newgrounds, that has adds everywhere and it is doing just fine.

Edit: To be clear I'm not saying we should go as extream as Newgrounds or some other sites have I just thing DD probably does need more adds then it has had in the past and I don't have a problem with the adds at the bottom of the comics which seems to be the main complaint here.

last edited on July 14, 2011 12:23PM
Sam_Charette at 1:24PM, June 29, 2007
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Evil Emperor Nick
No one is making you put things in your art which is your content. No one is making you put a WoW troll in your comic. Just as a normal comerical is directly following the show so to is this add directly following your page which is the context. DD isn't projecting its adds into your comic any more then a TV comercial is be coming in the middle of show.

You really don't get it don't you? It is nothing like a tv commercial. If it were, then you would get an ad when you clicked on the next page button (which a lot of sites do). That is at a point of transition between content, much like how a commercial is in a transition between sections of a television show. If you want to talk in similies, you really need to work on finding better ones, as a television commercial is in no way like this particular ad placement.

When you attach it to the content, you are implicitly attaching it to the author, and that's what has them in a huff.

And I'm not looking at it from only one point of view. I totally understand the viewpoint of the business and how important an income is, but you have to look at the medium. This isn't television. It's not a newspaper. It's not a magazine. This is a website, and websites are held to a different standard from the general public.

On the web (and, really, everywhere else) if you make the ads too intrusive then you lose credibility from those people who you are trying to appeal to. By giving advertisers exactly what they want, you run the risk that your readers and your contributors lose confidence in you and leave. That's certainly not good for business, now is it?

If you run a magazine, and people have trouble finding the content, you're going to lose business. If you run a newspaper and there are more fliers than news articles, you're going to lose business. If you're a web host, and every site you host has too many ads, you lose business.

It's funny that you bring up your marketing education because, just like someone IN marketing you've managed to twist everything around to suit what you're trying to sell. You state that the success of your ads directly relates to your standing in the business community and the industry at large.

Correct, but once again you use this in the wrong context. To apply what you said to this debate actually applies to BLIZZARD, and not DD, nor on the creators. The only ads here are theirs, and so the success of them helps Blizzard. That's marketing.

Selling ad space is not, in any way shape or form, the same thing. You don't gain any standing, or business, by selling ad space. No one is going to watch tv FOR the commercials. The only people who are gaining community/industry standing here is Blizzard.

Everyone else loses community standing. Drunk duck loses standing because it is now ad-rich which makes it less appealing for authors. Authors lose standing because all of the ads take credibility away from their website. Again, I bring up geocities. No one takes a GC web site as professional in any way, shape or form. To put a business web site up on GC is the worst web presence you can get, and the more ads that DD forces on the authors, the closer it gets to this fate.

Newgrounds is doing great, sure, but you wouldn't use it to start your business on, much like how you wouldn't put a business site on geocities (if you're smart). Webcomics aren't just a silly hobby to everyone. Many would like it to be more serious, and in fact that's one of the things that DD helps with, but if DD loses credibility because of ads, it also loses the ability to help push you the way you want them to.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:22PM
Evil Emperor Nick at 2:07PM, June 29, 2007
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I wish I know a more polite way to say this but I don't so here it goes: You don't know what you are talking about. You are passionate pooring that into your posts and making a great speech but you are still wrong.

The add isn't IN your page so it IS seperate from your content. The fact that his has very close proximity while clearly vexing you isn't same as putting it in your content. Any sort of add that comes as part of news or information comes attached to the content the only difference is DD has recently changed the placing and proximity of said adds.

Websites are held to very similar stands. Go look at AOL's or MSN's home page. You'll find a shockingly similar set up there. The only difference here is we are starting to apply professional standard to web comics which is new.

In fact don't go to MSN I'll save you the trouble.


Here we are on their main page. Hmm what is that? And interesting article on autos? I think I'll click on that.


Ahhh here we are in the auto section. There is my article of choice. I shall click on that to get my desired content.


Ah here is my article. Excellent! Now I can read about autos to my hearts content.

Now please tell me how MSN an majorly successful web site read by millions of people world wide is not a proffessional web site. This is proffesional advertisting on the internet just like any other web site. Newgrounds it self IS a business and one that is doing extreamly well for itself.

I'm not twisting anything I'm trying to tell you the facts and the fact is if a company advertises on your site and it sells their product it makes your add space more valuable. Further business partners talk all the time and giving success to people who invest in you is the only way to build up a reputation which again increases your value and brings in more clients.

Adds do not take away from your cretability. I don't know where you get that idea. You assertions are totally irrational. Think about this for a second. If you are successful on a site that is selling extreamly valuable add space doesn't that make your comic in turn an extreamly valuable property?

If you want more examples here they are 8-bit Theater, Megatokyo, Errant Story, and more. All of these site have covered their sites with adds many in this very manner. Megatokyo has an add banner almost directly below the comic befor the blog half. Every single major web comic has intigrated add space into their comic as a stepping stone towards developing their property. The succcessful sale of add space is an easy way to prove to companies that your comic is marketable and a powerful tool towards getting yourself published. Stop being paranoid and look around the web.

last edited on July 14, 2011 12:23PM
SteveMyers22 at 2:48PM, June 29, 2007
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Volte6
The placement of the ad is because the user must pass from the comic page, over the ad, and to the navigation in 99% of the cases, which advertisers apparently find to be the most ideal circumstance. Unfortunately people have subconsciously been trained to not even see ads such as those at the top of the page, and so they are not considered as valuable.

You know, you've now got me tempted to try something. If only my comic weren't an all-ages book.

How cool would it be to work out something with t-shirt hell and toss in some product placement right there! Hah! I mean, I'm already working a few hours a week trying to add interesting T-shirts and clothing and pop culture references into my work as is. Hmmmmm ….

A Medium Pimpin' shirt would look so cool on one of my characters.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:58PM
strong414bad at 3:14PM, June 29, 2007
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The adds may be pretty annoying, but they're much better than the ones on, say, IGN or DeviantART. At least you can ignore these ones.
Why hello there.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:59PM
suzi at 4:28PM, June 29, 2007
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My only problem is that it displaces the template. Luckily, most of the time my pages are big enough to keep it from being a problem, but when they're not, or when I visit comics that aren't, the border displacement is really nasty.

Besides that, I don't mind. I understand that advertising needs to happen. It's a bit of an eyesore, and I wish it wasn't there, and I think overall it cheapens the look of the site, but I understand that it's necessary.

I will admit, however, that it's pushed the slowly-marinating idea of getting my own domain to a slightly more prominent position (I wouldn't leave DD anyway–it would always at least be a mirror).
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:05PM
Eagle at 4:35PM, June 29, 2007
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After only being here today, I did not see how the ad's were before really. (Other than seeing my friend on drunkduck.) But I can see there is rather alot of them, which is no problem for me but I can see why the one's on comics and such might be problems.
Enema.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:18PM
djcoffman at 5:22PM, June 29, 2007
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Roguehill
Heh heh heh. Forgive me for saying so, DJ, but that's easy for you to say. You've moved into print, so your webcomic site is merely advertising. Heck, you've even said that your goal is to just become a “recognized writer”, not to do Hero by Night (which you don't own anymore, anyway). So what does a single, missplaced ad do to affect your efforts? Very little.
I don't think I ever said my goal was to become a recognized writer?? I've said one of my goals is to make Hero By Night into a new super hero icon, (big dreamin) and again, even though I sold the rights to Hero By Night, I'm connected to the project in every way shape or form contractually, – and you're wrong about Platinum too, they'd ask me before they made any decisions regarding covers (i know that because they have) – My site here on Drunk Duck is much more than advertising for the book. Notice, we don't have ads sending you to the Platinum store or anything like that– I'd rather people read and enjoy the stories and build the audience following. The only time I tell people to buy anything is when the book hits stores.

Back to the topic, I don't mind the ads because it pays for the FREE space here. I would host other comics here if I were just starting out, because lets face it, you're either out there in obscurity, or you can publish something here and have a built in community of readers and people kNOW you exist. My point is, forget Platinum, DRUNK DUCK does a lot for you guys and gals, gives you a huge forum to display your work. I think we can put up with some ads you generally ignore anyway when you're ad-blind. I don't hear readers complaining, or you'd see them probably complaining about it in the comments sections. They're not.

Heck, they get free comics. You get free space and tools so your site doesn't look like amatuer hour (by the way) – Ask not what the DUCK can do for you…
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:12PM
ozoneocean at 6:50PM, June 29, 2007
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Alright. I'm all for balancing the argument here because that's my job.

Addressing the side DJ and Nick are advocating:
That idea that people should be grateful for free stuff is problematical, lopsided, and faintly insulting to long time DD members. This site didn't pop into existence with funding. It was built up gradually by Volte, then Ronson as a labour of love, and then all the other community members that were slowly drawn to it over the years. Many of us have put in many hours to get this community to be what it is. As well as that; people come to the site to see comics made my the creators you chastise, not for the hosting. that means that the creators make the place what it is. Besides, the site wouldn't have been purchased and given funding by Platinum if we hadn't have made it something worth getting to start with.
(but always of course Volte is the heart and god at the centre)
-and this is obviously a very different site from an MSN portal or a news blogging site so be careful is missmatching comparisons. ;)

Addressing the Sam, Rough SK etc:
Compromises have been made and removing the bottom add is no small thing, I'm not happy with the way that's so easily dismissed: up until the removal of that there were 3 adds! Three. That was an add space that was currently being used to display paid advertising too (the middle one is not), and no matter how little we think people look at that one down there the fact is it was paid add space on every single page of DD (thousands of pages) and it draws revenue from people paying to use it. The removal indicates DD is willing to take a loss of revenue in an attempt to appease those of us who're unhappy with the current situation. It would be nice you you were a little more gracious in acknowledging that.
The other changes that have been made in response to community sentiment are also promising because they show that DD management is willing to listen to the concerns of its users, if the suggestions are sensible and clear enough they will try and accommodate you.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:27PM
lefarce at 7:13PM, June 29, 2007
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Evil Emperor Nick
Stop being paranoid and look around the web.

Y'know, there is another very successful search outlet that doesn't haphazardly toss about ads yet offers the same amount of additional content. Maybe you've heard of it? It's called Google.com. Fasinating place that Google.

There is also Ask.com and Search.com, but I'll save those shining examples for later.



Point being, I don't think you know what you're talking about. You just have more patience then the rest of us is all. So next time you generalize and call everyone an idiot, don't.

Also, it makes the page load a lot longer. I don't know what is up with ads.platinumstudios.net, but its making my page take an eternity to load now. :(

EDIT: There is also the fact that everyone is referring to the comic pages as real estate now. It would be great to get a cut of the money if you're going to treat my comic as land.

 
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:30PM
Sam_Charette at 7:17PM, June 29, 2007
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Evil Emperor Nick


Once again, Nick, you've shown that you just don't get it. You keep comparing things that have no comparison in this debate. If we were looking at a news site here, you'd be spot on. If we were looking at a single comic, you'd be spot on.

But we're not. We're talking about a web site host.

A web site host has credibility as a host, beyond anything you've talked about so far, and that's what's important here. If you screw around with your creators too much, such as by forcing ads into their site, you will find that people will only host with you because they can't anywhere else. This is the geocities predicament. Everyone who had something to say did so at geocities, but they forced such horrible advertising on those that every credible site has left. Now everyone knows that if a website is on geocities, or even angelfire, the chances of it being a professional site are zero. These hosts have lost their credibility as a host, and any site that is hosted there loses all professional credibility by association.

So if the host that you choose to host with screws with their client's sites too much, you will find that people will give your site less credibility by association. If you want to be professional, it's best to distance yourself from these things. Megatokyo, for instance, isn't on Geocities. It's not even here (not that there was a here at the time).

And, I hate to break it to you, but no advertiser in their right mind would think, even for a second, that just because a WoW commercial is on your Drunk Duck comic that YOUR COMIC must be some sort of miraculous commodity. It doesn't work that way. Drunk Duck is a valuable commodity to people with something to sell because it's forcibly inserted into every web page. YOUR site means dick all to them. They don't care who you are and, since you're really not selling any ad space yourself, won't even talk to you.

So how does this selling of ad space, in your examples, in any way benefit the comic artist here? It doesn't, and that's the plain, hard truth.

Putting the ad there, and thus catering to the advertisers, is a good financial decision for Drunk Duck for now, as it means more money. The more that they force this on the comic owners, though, the more they will be known as a bad host. It's kind of a trade off in that respect, which has shown itself before in web history. If you get a bad reputation in your community for being such a host, then no one in the community will take you, or the comics hosted on your site, seriously.

Of course the advertisers will love you, and that should be enough for everyone, right? ;)

It's not paranoia. I don't even think it's as bad as you think I think it is. I'm just not one to take bullshit like yours. You have valid points, but only in relation to examples which don't compare. It's like saying "But this orange tastes great“ when discussing how bad a batch of apples is. News sites, single comics, etc, they can get away with ads in the middle of the page because:

1) They CHOOSE to have them there.
2) They CHOOSE where to put them.
3) They CHOOSE what kind of ads to show.
4) They CHOOSE to insert it in a way that it's not attached to their own content.

If you get to make those choices, then the ads will fit your style, and no one will mind. If the ads are there because your host FORCED them on you, then your site begins to look rather hobby-ish. If you want to be taken seriously, you have to be able to take control of your site, and that means the advertising too.

As for people confusing it for an endorsement of yours, you'll notice that the ads you pointed out there are rather clearly separate from the rest of the content. As it is, the ads that we're discussing are ATTACHED to the comic page, separated only by a bar of comic-related actions. If the ad were separate from that, and clearly marked as a DD sponsor, like I mentioned earlier, then it wouldn't be nearly as bad, because it wouldn't be ATTACHED to the content, but only next to it.

I'll say that again, because it's extremely important: If the ad were separate from that, and clearly marked as a DD sponsor then it wouldn't be nearly as bad, because it wouldn't be ATTACHED to the content, but only next to it.

You really shouldn't underestimate the ability of the general public to connect the dots between two things when they are that close together. Even if no line should be there, the dots will be connected. It's human nature. Our brains are wired to process information in a way to fit a pattern, and one of the simplest patterns there is would be ”things that are next to each other are very often related".

Granted not everyone will make that mistake. I'd even suggest that those who would are in the minority. Fact is, though, that these people do exist, and this connection will be made.

If, however, the ads were altered to appear much like they do in the examples that you showed then it wouldn't be as bad. It would be an ad near the content, not attached to it.

Now I think I've made myself perfectly clear here. Your points aren't valid, because your talking about oranges in a discussion about apples. If you still don't get it, and insist that your college education, which clearly has not taught you how to construct a proper analogy, makes you better than me, then fine. Rant as much as you like, because I will not be responding to you any further.


For anyone else reading this, to avoid confusion, my position is as follows:

Placing ads there will generate more income for DD which is good. The problem is that since it's attached to the content, it blurs the line between sponsorship and endorsement. If it has to remain, then DD should alter it as previously suggested such that it is clear to be in no way attached to the content.

Also, DD should be careful about this line they are walking, as other website hosts have lost all credibility by doing the same thing. A web host without credibility will have no web sites with credibility, and that's not what anyone, DD included, wants.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:22PM
lefarce at 7:23PM, June 29, 2007
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Marry me Sam.

 
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:30PM

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