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naruto new series
that kid yellow at 6:35PM, Feb. 22, 2007
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if your into this the new series is on today. i forgot the link lol. sorry. it looks great.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:14PM
isukun at 7:43PM, Feb. 22, 2007
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I hope you're referring to a domestic release (which I doubt since you're talking about the second series which started airing in Japan on the 15th). Fansubs of this series are illegal at this point.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:04PM
that kid yellow at 11:54AM, Feb. 23, 2007
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cartoon network!
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:14PM
that kid yellow at 11:55AM, Feb. 23, 2007
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o wow. did not know i should tell my pal to wait. i doubt he listen to me.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:14PM
isukun at 12:30PM, Feb. 23, 2007
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Technically fan subs aren't legal to begin with, but once something is licensed, the American distributors stop overlooking it. It bugs me that series like Naruto get legit, uncut and subtitled releases in the US, but fansub distribution is so widespread anyway. It doesn't really encourage companies to make legit copies for the fans. In the case of Naruto, the series is being released as uncut box set with 12-13 episodes each. They're pricey compared to Funimation's uncut box sets (they retail at $50, but you can usually find them for about $35 if you know where to look). I kind of like the new wave of releasing televised anime in clumps every couple of months. I don't have to keep up with as many release dates or wait as long for a box set.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:04PM
that kid yellow at 5:25PM, Feb. 23, 2007
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o i see
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:14PM
Priceman at 12:32PM, Feb. 24, 2007
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If you're talking about that abomination on Cartoon Network, I'd have to say that it sux more rear end than god or man had originally intended! The japanese version is so much better, and who in the hell decided that “Believe It” would be his catch phrase?
I bought both Naruto games, and the guy can't go five seconds without saying it!

Fansubs may be illegal, but i'm so tired to dubs messing up great anime, that i really don't care.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:47PM
mechanical_lullaby at 2:56PM, Feb. 24, 2007
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Dattebayo doesn't mean anything. It's something just to annoy people. Which obviously does it's work if you're annoyed by it's mean nothing counterpart “believe it.”

but the “believe it” thing is why I never play as Naruto in the game.

last edited on July 14, 2011 1:56PM
isukun at 3:01PM, Feb. 24, 2007
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Fansubs may be illegal, but i'm so tired to dubs messing up great anime, that i really don't care.

So rather than support the publisher who makes the series available to you in the uncut and subtitled format you desire, you'd rather steal it because the televised version offends you? It's that kind of attitude that makes some companies not even bother with uncut versions of their shows and pushes Japanese publishers to lash out at fansubbers. I could understand it being an issue with a series like One Peice which never got the uncut DVD release it deserved, but that isn't the case with Naruto.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:04PM
Priceman at 3:45PM, Feb. 24, 2007
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isukun
Fansubs may be illegal, but i'm so tired to dubs messing up great anime, that i really don't care.

So rather than support the publisher who makes the series available to you in the uncut and subtitled format you desire, you'd rather steal it because the televised version offends you? It's that kind of attitude that makes some companies not even bother with uncut versions of their shows and pushes Japanese publishers to lash out at fansubbers. I could understand it being an issue with a series like One Peice which never got the uncut DVD release it deserved, but that isn't the case with Naruto.

It doesn't offend me. If that were the case, i wouldn't watch it at all. What i'm saying is that i'd rather see something as it was intended to be seen instead of a version that has been “dumbed down”, “kiddyfied”, and commercialized.

Basically my view is this: A fansubber watches/obtains a show in it's original format (thus ratings/money for the maker). Then, with their knowledge of the language, they add subtitles so it can be understood by others that don't speak the language. Finally, since very few people have access to japanese channels, they put it on the internet for download (usually at no cost).

On the other hand, Dubbed entertainment buys a license for a show (thus the originator has already recieved a lump sum of money), and after editing and getting voice actors to record it; they televise it. Now the voice acting is basically subtitling of a different sort to me. Both are there for the purpose of understanding and communication. But the editing takes away from the show's essence and almost robs it of it's meaning.

And while i can't speak for others, i do watch the dubbed version. Even though I do so to laugh at it, and to see how much was changed. But in the end i do watch/support it.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:47PM
isukun at 5:46PM, Feb. 24, 2007
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What i'm saying is that i'd rather see something as it was intended to be seen instead of a version that has been “dumbed down”, “kiddyfied”, and commercialized.

And what I'm saying is that there is already a version of Naruto available commercially to the public that isn't “'dumbed down', ‘kiddyfied’, and commercialized” (at least not any more than the show was to begin with). Content-wise, there is no advantage to the fansubbed version of the series over the commercially subtitled version of the series.

A fansubber watches/obtains a show in it's original format (thus ratings/money for the maker)

Fansubbers don't watch shows in their original format. Hell, they don't even buy DVDs or LDs anymore, so the argument that they're contributing to the original production company is completely moot. Fansubbers download raws from the Japanese pirate video community. It's about as legal as all those ripped DVDs and TV shows you see on video piracy sites here and contributes about as much to the creators (i.e. absolutely nothing).
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:04PM
ccs1989 at 6:02PM, Feb. 24, 2007
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Are you guys talking about Naruto: Shippuden? Everyone made a big deal about it because it got back to the manga story, but it didn't seem to really make the plot go faster at all. It had momentum before the theme song, and then it kind of lost it so I stopped watching it.

Theme song was catchy though.
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“If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.”
-Henry David Thoreau, Walden
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:38AM
Priceman at 12:35AM, Feb. 25, 2007
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ccs1989
Are you guys talking about Naruto: Shippuden? Everyone made a big deal about it because it got back to the manga story, but it didn't seem to really make the plot go faster at all. It had momentum before the theme song, and then it kind of lost it so I stopped watching it.

Theme song was catchy though.

Nah, i think we're talking about the series as a whole. But i am loving Shippuden.

Isukun
And what I'm saying is that there is already a version of Naruto available commercially to the public that isn't “'dumbed down', ‘kiddyfied’, and commercialized” (at least not any more than the show was to begin with). Content-wise, there is no advantage to the fansubbed version of the series over the commercially subtitled version of the series.

I don't know about the naruto DVD's, but most that i've seen have been good enough to have an uncut showing; however, it seems that even with Japanese language and english subtitles you're just reading the dubbed scrips over the japanese dialog. So basically you're watching the Raw cartoon with american dialect no matter how to slice it. And as far as advantages, fansubs are: commercial free, readily available, and usually WAY ahead in the storyline.

Isukun
Fansubbers download raws from the Japanese pirate video community.

Seems to me that the “problem” is right there.


Isukun, as fun as it is to go back and forth with you (and i mean that seriously. I love a good debate); this is probably a subject that should be in the “Debate and Discussion” Section. I'm pretty sure yellow kid had something else in mind when he started this thread.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:47PM
isukun at 12:29PM, Feb. 25, 2007
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I don't know about the naruto DVD's, but most that i've seen have been good enough to have an uncut showing; however, it seems that even with Japanese language and english subtitles you're just reading the dubbed scrips over the japanese dialog.

Of the hundreds of DVDs I've bought over the years, NONE do that, so I'm not sure what DVDs you've been watching. For the most part companies have separate translations for the subtitles and the dub track. Many even include two subtitle tracks for people who prefer the dub, but want closed captioning. I can tell you right now that the subtitles in Naruto aren't even close to the dub script.

Seems to me that the “problem” is right there.

Not really. I download fansubs, as well. I just limit my downloading to series I can't get through domestic measures and I don't sugarcoat what I do with hypocritical claims that I'm supporting the work in some way. I'm not against fansubs in general. I think they do play a role in bringing some series to the US which would otherwise be overlooked. I just prefer to support the industry that made anime as popular as it is today and which continues for the most part to cater to my interests as a fan. I remember the late 80's and early 90's and the kind of crap we anime fans had to deal with.

I'm pretty sure yellow kid had something else in mind when he started this thread.

Looks like it. It's just the wording threw me off initially since he was talking about a new series when the new episodes on Cartoon Network are really just a new season. And it wouldn't have been the first time someone tried to promote downloadng episodes of commercially licensed anime if that had been what he was talking about (heck, last time the person even linked to a site that had the episodes).
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:04PM
that kid yellow at 2:31PM, Feb. 25, 2007
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i feel the heat guys. we are all friends here and i made an update on my comic. BELIEVE IT!lol
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:14PM
Priceman at 5:03PM, March 2, 2007
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isukun
Of the hundreds of DVDs I've bought over the years, NONE do that, so I'm not sure what DVDs you've been watching.

Anime like Dragonball (all of them), Dot Hack, and Trigun just to name a few. Watch both versions, then watch the dubbed version with english subs and you'll see what i mean.


isukun
I download fansubs, as well. I just limit my downloading to series I can't get through domestic measures

Naruto is still basically considered “new” here in the states. But i was watching it about year to year and a half before it came over. Are you saying that since it's now domestic and available, that i should wait past the 200+ episodes i've already watched (not to mention cartoon network's evil method of looping strings of episodes for months) until i get to where i am now in the series?

isukun
Looks like it. It's just the wording threw me off initially since he was talking about a new series when the new episodes on Cartoon Network are really just a new season.

Understandable.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:47PM
isukun at 10:47PM, March 2, 2007
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Dragonball (all of them)

Gotta disagree there. I have the newer version, and while some of the names are still misrepresented (what's so hard about using the name Enma?) the subtitles don't match the dialog in the dub. A friend of mine has several of the older discs and the same is true for his copies.

Dot Hack

Just checked it, nope on that one, too. The subtitles don't match the dub dialog. Never really liked Trigun that much. It started out fun, but everything kind of went downhill after the first four episodes, so I don't have DVDs to check for that series. Still, considering it was put out by Pioneer, I doubt they would match.

Are you saying that since it's now domestic and available, that i should wait past the 200+ episodes i've already watched (not to mention cartoon network's evil method of looping strings of episodes for months) until i get to where i am now in the series?

Yes. Entertainment is a luxury, not a right. I'm sure you can find other ways or other series to pass the time.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:04PM
mlai at 10:25AM, March 7, 2007
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Someone
It doesn't really encourage companies to make legit copies for the fans.
Good. Nobody asked them to.

Someone
Yes. Entertainment is a luxury, not a right. I'm sure you can find other ways or other series to pass the time.
LOLZ.

I'm unapologetically pro-pirate in this case. Even back in the day when anime wasn't a fad in the US, we fans always had means to fansubs and stuff out of Japan. AFAIC, we don't need American middlemen leeching money off of us. Because that's what they are - money leeching middlemen. Distribution? Don't need ya. Language barrier? We solve it ourselves, for free. Pretty box cover? Got scanned art up the wazoo on the net, bye bye.

I really don't care if the anime tranlsation and distribution industry completely dies in the USA. We'll all still be watching anime like in the 1990's. We didn't need middlemen then, we don't need them now. Net neutrality, anime neutrality.

As for the Jpnese publishers… you did fine back when interest from Caucasians was non-existent, you'll do fine now no matter how much Americans pirate your stuff. You're still much better off than the record industry, so live with it. And goddammit sell your artbooks and figures to us too, if you're looking for something to export.

Edit: Let me put it this way. Some things in this world aren't meant to be a consumer-provider process. Just because some ass thinks he can make money from something, doesn't mean the rest of the world is obliged to help him do it. Maybe we should all stop using the washer fluid for our windshields? Sidewalk squeegee men must be allowed to earn their livelihoods!

If the global internet and its newfound power given to the masses means that some distribution economies are no longer viable commercially, then tough shit, that's the new world Bub.

FIGHT current chapter: Filling In The Gaps
FIGHT_2 current chapter: Light Years of Gold
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:05PM
ccs1989 at 11:25AM, March 7, 2007
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I don't like pirating on the net because it gives people the idea that they can steal anything as long as it's on the internet. True, anime on the net probably won't stop it from being made in Japan, but watching and reading stuff on the net that's made in America will definitely kill the business because it's centered in the states. Would you like it if so many people in Japan pirated anime, causing the shows not to be made anymore? Then you couldn't watch them.

When it comes down to it it's illegal, it's counter-productive to a healthy capitalist society, and it's cheating people who do things leagally out of their money. When more people pirate, the companies have to up the price of the DVDs to make a profit. No one has ever gotten really rich off anime, so don't go talking about the middlemen “fat cats”.

Basically you're a person doing something illegal, but have manufactured a mindset that allows you to not feel guilty about it.
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“If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.”
-Henry David Thoreau, Walden
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:38AM
mlai at 11:53AM, March 7, 2007
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I don't like pirating on the net because it gives people the idea that they can steal anything as long as it's on the internet.

OK, “as long as it's on the net.” OK, then… what exactly are stolen on the net?
1. Anime
2. Manga
3. Movies
4. Music

Let me put it this way… Human society changes over time. Things which were economically viable become unviable. Things which were unviable become mega-viable.

Traveling minstrels used to be poor performers without a home. Now they live like kings. Maybe one day they'll be back to poor performers again. A bad thing? A good thing? Merely a sign of the times? Are we obliged to help them to continue living like kings, despite the changes in human civilization? Whether or not musicians are empowered in society, there will always be musicians who create for the love of it.

The things that can be stolen on the net are creative mediums. These mediums didn't make anybody any loads of cash 500 years ago. Monks slaved away for lifetimes making majestic works of art out of passion, not for cash. Few great painters ever became rich or famous before their deaths. The creative drive for humanity will always thrive regardless of profit. I'm not inclined to care whether or not the cash reward is there for creators, because that motivation is unnecessary.

Would you like it if so many people in Japan pirated anime, causing the shows not to be made anymore? Then you couldn't watch them.

Anime in Japan is on TV.

When it comes down to it it's illegal, it's counter-productive to a healthy capitalist society, and it's cheating people who do things leagally out of their money.

It's also illegal for the grandparents of a killed Iraq War soldier to receive a lump sum of cash usually doled out to the soldier's widow/widower to help raise the “war orphan,” doesn't make it right.

Legality is a tool, not a set of moral absolutes. Likewise, there are many things wrong with our current capitalist society. The logging industry receives federal aid, for god knows what reason. Many industries are the tools of the rich and powerful. There are also way too many middlemen in every facet of life.

Some middlemen, like accountants, are necessary. Some become unnecessary because of the march of technology and global mass culture. Legality is used to attempt to keep alive that which has fallen out of favor. How about a dose of true capitalism: If it doesn't work, let it go!

No one has ever gotten really rich off anime, so don't go talking about the middlemen “fat cats”.

Refer to last sentence of previous paragraph.

Basically you're a person doing something illegal, but have manufactured a mindset that allows you to not feel guilty about it.

I'm a person enlightened enough to have an opinion about the world I live in, and understand some personal truths, rather than doggedly follow the dogma of The Man.

By your line of reasoning, the Net Neutrality movement is illegal because it's preventing the communications corporations from honestly squeezing that additional buck out of the consumer masses, by controlling what we see and hear in the last Wild West of the world.

Edit:
Here's another one. It should be illegal for ppl to record TV programs for watching later, because they'll skip over all the commercials, which are how TV channels stay free. Of course we can't take away ppl's VCRs because they can say they use it to watch rental tapes. But we should make Tivo illegal because its sole purpose is to record TV programs.

(I'm playing devil's advocate in the above paragraph, in case you haven't realized.)

FIGHT current chapter: Filling In The Gaps
FIGHT_2 current chapter: Light Years of Gold
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:05PM
Kristen Gudsnuk at 8:56PM, March 7, 2007
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I really don't understand what gets everyone so fired up about piracy. The question is, “am I hurting anyone by watching fansubs?”
as isukun says,
isukun
Entertainment is a luxury, not a right. I'm sure you can find other ways or other series to pass the time.
so if I were NOT watching Naruto Shippuden right now, I would be… picking daisies. watching something unlicensed. I wouldn't buy Naruto, because anime is so freaking expensive. I wouldn't watch anime if I couldn't do it for free. Therefore, by that mode of reasoning, I'm not harming the companies because I wouldn't be a customer of theirs anyway. No matter what, I will not give them my money. I refuse. I'd rather just not watch naruto than pay. (I have living expenses, you know!)

Sometimes I go to Borders and read manga there without buying it. (heh. Kristen Confesses All!) But the thing is, my conscience doesn't keep me up late at night about it. And I really don't think it makes that big of a difference to some random millionaire at Simon & Schuster if I do or don't spend $8 on volume 2 of Nana.

gaara is cool.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:22PM
mlai at 8:44AM, March 8, 2007
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They're fired up because someone like Isukun happens to be a professional in the field (or was). So pirates and ppl who condone pirates detract from their livelihood, or at least they heavily sympathize with those affected by pirates.

I can understand. If my livelihood was directly affected by pirates, I'd be up in arms too. BUT, I wouldn't get holier-than-thou about it. I'd tell you straight up that I support such and such anti-piracy bill because my company depends on it, not because I think piracy is wrong.

I have a different view of law and social order in general. Of course murder and such is wrong. But when we get down to the minutiae of the social contract, such as musicians vs mpeg sharers, you have to think about the underlying dynamics rather than just the knee-jerk reaction of “Obey the law!” and “You're killing their livelihood, BAD!”

Think about the music business. Recording devices which catapulted musicians to the status of virtual nobility didn't occur until this century. Before that, popular musicians are just ppl like everyone else. So, technology granted musicians a period of grace. Now, technology is changing, and their period of grace is (somewhat) ending, because they can no longer (absolutely) control the access to their creative output to give themselves money. Is it the fault of society that this trend is ending? Is it the fault of human nature, who wants things for free if they can get it?

I don't think so. The music business trying to hold on to their power is akin to the Church telling Gallileo that the sun revolves around the Earth, AFAIC.

Same goes for fansubs vs official distributors.

FIGHT current chapter: Filling In The Gaps
FIGHT_2 current chapter: Light Years of Gold
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:05PM
subcultured at 8:50AM, March 8, 2007
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even people who buy products legally gets punished
suckass media, i bought the product! i should be able to fastforward through the antipiracy ad
J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:01PM
mlai at 8:56AM, March 8, 2007
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I hope ppl understand my viewpoint. I'm capable of changing my mind if I'm shown how my logic or impression of history is wrong.

But just telling me “you're breaking the law” or “you're taking money away from the creators” or “you're being selfish and self-rationalizing” will not change my mind on this debate one iota.

FIGHT current chapter: Filling In The Gaps
FIGHT_2 current chapter: Light Years of Gold
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:05PM
ccs1989 at 12:51PM, March 8, 2007
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Alright, I get where you're coming from, but it's not like I work in any industry either. The reason I want people to buy things legit is because:
A.) The more that is sold, the more that makes things cheaper for everyone.
B.) It supports the original creators, allowing them to continue creating.
C.) Allows me to have a nice DVD copy or published copy (if we're talking about comics).

Also I think that not stealing stuff is a good idea. Just because it's digital and available doesn't make it legal.
http://ccs1989.deviantart.com

“If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.”
-Henry David Thoreau, Walden
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:38AM
isukun at 5:59PM, March 8, 2007
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As for the Jpnese publishers… you did fine back when interest from Caucasians was non-existent, you'll do fine now no matter how much Americans pirate your stuff.

Sorry, but that's just plain wrong. Revenue from anime has gone down since the 90's. Cutbacks on funding has resulted in shorter seasons, fewer production companies, and more shortcuts being taken in animation. Japanese publishers quite often rely on licensing animation to foreign countries to fund new projects. Anime and manga are some of Japan's biggest exports. These “money leeching middlemen” as you call them, are directly funding anime production in Japan and the companies in Japan are catching on to this. Some have even started to directly contact fansubbers with cease and desist notices even for series that aren't licensed in other countries.

Monks slaved away for lifetimes making majestic works of art out of passion, not for cash. Few great painters ever became rich or famous before their deaths. The creative drive for humanity will always thrive regardless of profit.

The big difference being that the monks and artists of old were not making a consumer product for a demanding public. High budget entertainment is not made because someone has the passion to create it. It is made because the viewing public has a desire to see it. Sure, the consumer public can refuse to pay for the entertainment they love and drive the industries which make those products into the ground, but when the consumer market is gone, I highly doubt the art house crap that people make out of “passion” is really going to hold them over. You can't compare fine art and traveling minstrels to the entertainment industry of today. They were different markets for different societies.

Would you like it if so many people in Japan pirated anime, causing the shows not to be made anymore?

mlai is right on that one. People in Japan don't pay for anime (at least not directly). DVDs tend to be priced for rental companies and piracy is pretty rampant. This is why many studios have begun to rely on foreign funding for many of their projects. In the US, DVDs are more fairly priced and most TV and movie studios are able to make more from video sales than sponsorship and theatrical releases. This helps studios make back money they lost from less successful projects.

qote]And I really don't think it makes that big of a difference to some random millionaire at Simon & Schuster if I do or don't spend $8 on volume 2 of Nana.

And that's the exact mentaility that makes piracy so damaging to an industry. People love to think in terms of individuals doing one misdeed. Problem is, it isn't just volume 2 of Nana and the more people that think that way, the larger the problem becomes.

They're fired up because someone like Isukun happens to be a professional in the field

No, actually, I'm not, nor have I ever been in the field. Besides, my motivation isn't to protect the corporations. Piracy has a direct impact on my ability to get the products I want. Hurting the cash flow for production companies cuts me off from getting the product I want.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:04PM
mlai at 2:02PM, March 9, 2007
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Someone
Revenue from anime has gone down since the 90's.
Is there an observable reason to this?

Someone
You can't compare fine art and traveling minstrels to the entertainment industry of today. They were different markets for different societies.
Yes, society has changed. And that's one of my main points, that due to human nature and the changes in technology, piracy will persist to be a serious problem to the current business structure involving creative media such as anime and music. Those in the business can either cry uselessly for morality from the consumer public, or change the underlying structure of the business so that piracy no longer poses such a serious problem.

As long as piracy is as easy as going to a website and clicking a few times, with zero risk of reprisal by the law, NOBODY is going to change their ways. And they're not obliged to. The basic nature of media piracy has been conditioned into this generation. Ever since every home began to have a VCR, kids learned that they can save their favorite shows either from the TV channel, or via a rental tape. So the public can't be expected to change. This is like the unwinnable war on drugs. The business model or the technology has to change.

Kristen is right in that if it weren't for piracy, the anime subculture would not be as widespread as it is right now. Certainly, no teenagers or college students can afford the amount of anime they currently seem to devour. I don't know what the implications of that is.

FIGHT current chapter: Filling In The Gaps
FIGHT_2 current chapter: Light Years of Gold
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:05PM
isukun at 12:18AM, March 10, 2007
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Is there an observable reason to this?

Rising production costs, mostly. There is greater demand for higher quality visuals as time progresses, plus Korean studios are getting more expensive the more work they get from abroad. Anime is primarily an advertising medium in Japan. With a few exceptions, anime isn't expected to make money, so it is hard to justify dumping more money into it without some sort of return on the investment. Manga publishers can always find other ways to market their magazines if anime becomes too costly to justify the expense.

The basic nature of media piracy has been conditioned into this generation. Ever since every home began to have a VCR, kids learned that they can save their favorite shows either from the TV channel, or via a rental tape.

You seriously overestimate the extent of piracy in modern society. There are more people this generation who know nothing about torrents and file sharing than there are that do. Not to mention that the VCR, although it had the capability, was never a major a medium for recording shows or movies. It was an incredibly inconvinient medium for recording. Programing it was always a pain and dubing tapes required two VCRs and often resulted in a loss of quality (especially after the inclusion of Macrovision in most commercial videos). This is why DVRs are becoming so much more popular for recording TV. They are easy to use and there is little loss of quality.

Kristen is right in that if it weren't for piracy, the anime subculture would not be as widespread as it is right now.

Anime got it's first break from televised series in the 60's and 70's. The current wave of American anime fans were raised on shows aired in the 80's. Manga also started hitting the comic shops around this time. Plus, you had a select few companies who were starting to bring anime films over to the US for older crowds. There were far more people in the early 90's who were buying VHS tapes of anime than there were people sending off for fansubs. Most of those people didn't get into anime through piracy. Today's widespread anime subculture for the most part consists of people who are fans of televised anime. Look at the shows that are really popular and you'll find a lot of fans for Full Metal Alchemist, Gundam Wing, Dragonball Z, Inuyasha, Pokemon, and a variety of other shows commonly seen on TV. Back when anime relied on piracy to get any recognition at all, nobody even knew what it was. It wasn't until anime went mainstream that people started taking interest. The anime industry started to boom right around when Toonami started airing DBZ. That is not a coincidence.

The business model or the technology has to change.

Unfortunately, neither is a viable option. There is no alternative business model which can make up for a total loss of DVD sales. There isn't a high enough demand for merchandise and advertisers won't pay that much.

Certainly, no teenagers or college students can afford the amount of anime they currently seem to devour.

Certainly many do. I managed to afford the tapes I bought in high school and that was back when one or two episodes on a tape for $30 was the going rate. I still manage to afford the DVDs I want, even as a grad student. All of my friends from college manage to buy their DVDs as well and most don't have the time or bandwidth to be constantly downloading fansubs. Besides, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to claim college students can't afford anime when that is the primary market for the medium right now. Plus, back in the 90's, most fansubs were being created by college students who were willing to spend a few thousand on computer equipment and laserdiscs.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:04PM
mlai at 6:36AM, March 10, 2007
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posts: 3,035
joined: 12-28-2006
You seriously overestimate the extent of piracy in modern society.

If that's the case, then why your great outcry?

This is why DVRs are becoming so much more popular for recording TV.

I wrote a paragraph on this then deleted it because it was too long-winded. The point is, VCRs showed kids it's possible, then Tivo and torrents made that possibility even easier/better.

Back when anime relied on piracy to get any recognition at all, nobody even knew what it was. It wasn't until anime went mainstream that people started taking interest.

That entire paragraph is saying to me that piracy isn't a huge deal in north America.

Besides, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to claim college students can't afford anime when that is the primary market for the medium right now.

College kids are the ones doing practically all the fansubbing/ torrenting/ filesharing, unless things changed since I was in college. The computer equipment and bandwidth are usually university property, or I'd assume is used in other ways for their future aspirations.

And no, maybe your parents are stacked, but as an average teenager or student you do not pay $200 for every series you want to watch that is not on Adult Swim. Yet we know the ardent viewership watches series 1 after the other.

Before internet became broadband, I bought maybe 2 original tapes my whole life. I lusted after the Lodoss War series. Even though it occupied the entirety of my brain, I never bought it because the whole thing was approx $200. Everything else I owned, I got thru copies of the anime club or by recording copies from Chinatown rentals. Original anime tape/CD/DVD has not decreased in price since then.

So, either interest in non-televised anime series would drastically decline if piracy is nonexistent, or piracy is a minor factor (in NA) compared to the mainstream viewership. Which is it?

FIGHT current chapter: Filling In The Gaps
FIGHT_2 current chapter: Light Years of Gold
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:05PM
isukun at 11:46AM, March 10, 2007
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posts: 2,481
joined: 9-28-2006
If that's the case, then why your great outcry?

Because in other parts of the world it has become more widespread and as we can see from the Japanese reliance on foreign money for anime and films, it can make an impact on the industry. The people who refuse to buy anything do so under the misguided delusion that their singular actions don't hurt anybody. They take the market for granted because it's always been there and they assume it always will be.

The point is, VCRs showed kids it's possible, then Tivo and torrents made that possibility even easier/better.

Tivo makes it easy to recod TV shows, it doesn't make it easy to archive or pirate video. In fact, if anything, it makes it harder due to space restrictions and a general lack of compatible hardware. Eventually, people have to delete what they've recorded on Tivo and you won't see a lot of Tivo units dumping video files onto the net or being traded back and forth between friends.

That entire paragraph is saying to me that piracy isn't a huge deal in north America.

Actually the point of that paragraph was that piracy isn't what make anime popular in the US. At the moment, it isn't a major problem, but with the ease of downloading pirated materials, it is spreading.

College kids are the ones doing practically all the fansubbing/ torrenting/ filesharing, unless things changed since I was in college. The computer equipment and bandwidth are usually university property, or I'd assume is used in other ways for their future aspirations.

Many colleges have started monitoring bandwidth useage and cutting accounts that abuse it. Also, using school computers for this sort of work is often an expellable offense.

And no, maybe your parents are stacked, but as an average teenager or student you do not pay $200 for every series you want to watch that is not on Adult Swim.

Most I've met do. They get something called a job and make money to afford the things they want, kind of like I did. It also in't uncommon for people to get their anime through rental services or pay channels like the anime channel. Besides which, most series these days don't cost that much. Shorter series tend to be limited to four DVDs and longer series are often released at a reduced price. Plus, many series are getting the box set treatement these days where a full series, or a sizeable chunk of it, can be bought for under $50.

Original anime tape/CD/DVD has not decreased in price since then.

Really? I beg to differ. When I started buying tapes back in high school, they were $25-$30 a tape and at most would have two episodes on the tape. That would be $15-$30 an episode. Now, most DVDs are 3-5 episodes each and can be bought for $20-$25 with both languages and subtitles. That's $4-$8 an episode and that doesn't even take into account box sets which can lower the price even further.

So, either interest in non-televised anime series would drastically decline if piracy is nonexistent, or piracy is a minor factor (in NA) compared to the mainstream viewership. Which is it?

How do you figure interest would decline if piracy were nonexistant? Since interest is generated by the commercial market, the existance of piracy has little impact on the popularity of the medium. Piracy is a minor factor compared to the mainstream viewership at the moment. Still, it is more widespread among the anime fan comunity than for any other video type in this country and it continues to spread. Just because something isn't a major factor now doesn't mean it isn't heading in that direction.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:04PM

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