General Discussion

No more room.
Salsa at 12:25PM, Feb. 2, 2011
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Hopefully they resolve this soon, otherwise sites like DrunkDuck and other free sites are probably going to go very quickly in the next few years.

If you don't know what's going on, basically the last few million IPv4 address were allocated yesterday. What's probably going to happen is dead sites go first, then we'll see a lot of the free content hosting sites go. We'll also probably see time and bandwidth limits come back.

And the thing that sucks the most is they developed the next standard back in the early 90's.

Yep, we're screwed when it comes to ease of access.
RAGE!
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:19PM
I Am The 1337 Master at 12:41PM, Feb. 2, 2011
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Eventually there'll be no duck because of whatever that means?



NO!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:55PM
skoolmunkee at 2:46PM, Feb. 2, 2011
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I've seen news about this for a while now but I don't really get it. So is this like… .coms or IP addresses or what? Why is it so hard to just make some new numbers?
  IT'S OLD BATMAN
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:44PM
Genejoke at 3:00PM, Feb. 2, 2011
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My guess is that it is completely artificial, just a way of raising the cost.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:33PM
Salsa at 3:21PM, Feb. 2, 2011
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Basically, every server and computer connected to the internet is assigned an IP address, DrunkDuck's store is 97.74.195.2. The problem is that IPv4 doesn't support anymore addresses, and it's THE standard of the internet. We can't add any more addresses under IPv4 because the bit length is fixed at 32. Most equipment manufacturers aren't going to shell out extra money and cut their profit just to support more bits than they have to, so most routers only have the hardware to process a 32 bit address.

The biggest problem is that there has been a standard to replace IPv4 since the early 90's, IPv6. The entire industry was supposed to be switching to it since then, but only something like .3% of all internet connected devices and routers support and use this standard.

In short it's a infrastructure issue, and worst case could have an ISP doing something like this:



Oh and apparently the FCC chair APPROVES of a two tier system like this.

(edit: sorry something I typed earlier was inaccurate, fixed now)
RAGE!
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:19PM
elektro at 4:44PM, Feb. 2, 2011
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From what it sounds like, this could not only affect Drunk Duck, but also other web cartoonists as well, considering that people would have to pay more to access the pages said other cartoonists are on, therefore most people won't bother to pay extra to read web cartoons.

If this is the case, this is a very big deal, and may affect those sites' hit numbers immensely.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:21PM
Salsa at 5:06PM, Feb. 2, 2011
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Yep. Now do you know why I'm freaking out about this!
RAGE!
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:19PM
BffSatan at 5:08PM, Feb. 2, 2011
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It COULD affect drunk duck, it COULD drastically change the way we use the internet, it COULD cause a third world war, but it probably won't.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:21AM
lefarce at 5:34PM, Feb. 2, 2011
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Someone
The biggest problem is that there has been a standard to replace IPv4 since the early 90's, IPv6. The entire industry was supposed to be switching to it since then, but only something like .3% of all internet connected devices and routers support and use this standard.

Hey does anybody else remember that time we were supposed to switch to the metric system? Golly!

 
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:34PM
Salsa at 6:35PM, Feb. 2, 2011
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lefarce
Hey does anybody else remember that time we were supposed to switch to the metric system? Golly!

A: They've had 20 years to switch, the US basically tried to do it over night.

B: Software standards are different from measuring systems. It's possible to support multiple protocols, and as a matter of fact gosh indeedy they do! Just look at you're web browser, or your music player and marvel at the fact that it supports several different formats. The Problem is that none of the major companies and hosts bothered to provide support for IPv6 in their equipment. Since the IP address is a string of bits all it would have taken is a script and a tag that allowed you to Switch between the two while IPv4 sites existed.

Anyway, I've done something about this. I've emailed my representatives, if you're a US citizen and are old enough to vote then you might want to contact your congressmen. Here's what I wrote:
To Senator Sessions
Senator Sessions,

Recently I have read several things that have disturbed me and have lead me to believe that one of our basic First Amendment rights is about to be infringed upon by the major telecommunication and media companies such as Google, Time Warner, AT&T, and Verizon. Specifically, I am talking about the concept of a Two-Tiered Internet. This concept will not only limit the citizens' of the United States right to free speech, but also hurt smaller businesses in a wide spectrum of industries. Small press, free and inexpensive web-hosting services, web design firms, independent studios, Linux, software foundations that release under the Creative Commons or the GNU licenses, specialty retailers, and web published mediums like web comics are just a few of the businesses that will suffer under this proposed infrastructure. Furthermore, we'll see the death of the web design industry and the emerging concept of cloud computing.

The First Amendment gives a guarantee of free speech. If you allow this system to be implemented, if you allow these companies to do as they will, then the common man will have no voice that can be heard. The artist trying to be discovered will have no outlet. The writer will have no audience. If you allow this to pass then we as a people will be at the mercy of the large corporations and media conglomerates. It will be they who decide who is heard.

Imagine, if you will, a future where no one can critique the activities of the government and the big corporations. A future where what stories are told is based on whether or not you're in good standing with a certain company. A future where creativity and the arts are stifled because innovation and uniqueness are seen as harmful to profits.

We are already at that future with television and print. The Internet is the last truly free forum of free speech. We are also at a cross roads. The current infrastructure and standards are already at the breaking point. ISP's and their equipment have to change or they risk losing their customers and their business. There has been a standard that would allow for the continued expansion of the internet for many more years. It's the IPv6 standard and has been around since the early 1990's. For the media and ISP conglomerates, it would be much easier to switch to the tiered model and keep the current standard instead of keeping the open, net neutral model and switching to a different standard, even though the standard that would replace it is almost twenty years old. These companies that are proposing the Two Tier model are the same ones that have not switched to the standard that was proposed almost twenty years ago.

So I ask you this: Is the United States ruled by the people? Does our government support and protect our constitutional rights? Or do we live in a fascist country run by the corporate interests? Do we live a country that the right to be heard, the right to reach the widest audience possible is sold to the highest bidder? If it is the former, then please, for the good of this amazing country and all who live in it, support net neutrality and forbid this horrendous breach of our civil liberties. If it is the latter, then I'm afraid that all I have written here has been for naught.


Let them know you care! And we may be able to answer the question of whether the country belongs to the people or the companies while we're at it.
RAGE!
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:19PM
Dave7 at 7:53PM, Feb. 2, 2011
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I kind of have to side with lefarce and BffSatan on this. While this does have me worried somewhat, and while this is likely to have some affect on technology and the internet in general (a subject which I have next to no knowledge about), what you're proposing is the WORSE possible scenario. Having read about the subject some and from what I CAN understand, I can tell for a fact that there are going to be some problems, but the WORSE that could happen isn't neccesarily what WILL happen. Chances are the result will be somewhere BETWEEN the two extremes you're suggesting (having to pay extra to access certain sites depending on your service provider) and the IDEAL solution (everyone switching to IPv6 format, which I also seriously doubt will happen, at least anytime soon).

While it may not be the worse scenario, whatever DOES happen is still probably going to suck to SOME extent, though. That I don't doubt at all.

*EDIT*

I went back and read the article again, and correct me if I'm misunderstanding this (like I said, tech isn't my strong point), but according to the article, only 14% of IP addresses are actually being utilized, albeit inefficiently. It also says that ISPs may choose to trade space, but that would only be a short-term solution (about 2 years). Now, I could be wrong, but given how the demand for space would likely increase regardless of the limit that the IPv4 has, and regardless of what position ISPs and corporations would be in the years to come, it sounds like a switch to IPv6 would HAVE to occur at some point in the future regardless.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 12:09PM
HippieVan at 8:42PM, Feb. 2, 2011
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On a similar topic, here in Canada the CRTC just approved of Usage Based Billing for the internet.

The nice thing is that people are getting upset about it. The petition against this has some 350,000 signatures(keep in mind the population of Canada is not huge, and when so few people are voting that's a significant number). Both the NDP and Liberal parties have come out against UBB, and our P.M. is apparently going to take a look at the decision, and may reverse it himself. If he doesn't it'll be a pretty bad move for a minority government anyways.
So it seems like people are making a difference, which is always awesome to see…especially with our conservative government that always seems to put businesses ahead of the people.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 12:49PM
ozoneocean at 8:55PM, Feb. 2, 2011
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Hippie Van
just approved of Usage Based Billing for the internet.
Something the rest of the planet has had to live with since day 1.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:37PM
lefarce at 9:10PM, Feb. 2, 2011
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Salsa
lefarce
Hey does anybody else remember that time we were supposed to switch to the metric system? Golly!

A: They've had 20 years to switch, the US basically tried to do it over night.

I know. I'm joking.

Point is, it doesn't surprise me that we would come up with a solution that we never bother to implement. That is, until the last minute.



 
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:34PM
BffSatan at 11:02PM, Feb. 2, 2011
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The whole usage-based internet thing hasn't really been as dreadful as Americans seem to believe it will be. Sure, it can be annoying if you run out, that's why you get a bigger package if you need it. The whole idea of it limiting free speech is beyond stupid. There will never be issues of providers charging more for certain sites.
Free speech and usage-based charges are completely unrelated issues.

Also, 500mb? There is no such thing as a deal that small.

But anyway, that's not very relevant.

There's still more IPv4 addresses and there's still plenty of addresses that are out of use, not to mention that addresses can be bought and sold. Plenty of time to start switching to Ipv6. We'll be fine.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:21AM
bravo1102 at 2:02AM, Feb. 3, 2011
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lefarce
Salsa
lefarce
Hey does anybody else remember that time we were supposed to switch to the metric system? Golly!

A: They've had 20 years to switch, the US basically tried to do it over night.

I know. I'm joking.

Point is, it doesn't surprise me that we would come up with a solution that we never bother to implement. That is, until the last minute.




Just like Y2K? Everyone runs around like chickens without heads and in labs all over the world techies fix everything and we all wake up the next day to find… nothing happened.
Maybe the whole internet will crash on 21 December 2012. The Mayans foresaw all of this!

As for the metric system all the parts of the USA that matter switched without a hitch. It's the ignorant civilians who didn't. You know the arrogant USA#1 guys who refuse to learn any forgeign languages. Those Americans who want to become the new Know-Nothing party. ;)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:34AM
ozoneocean at 2:33AM, Feb. 3, 2011
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The old Imperial system baffles me… it's pretty funny too.
Bushel! Gallon! Pint! Stone! Foot! Furlong, Fathom, grains, … lol!
Then there's the strange fractions…3/8“, 2 3/16” WTF? Decimals are so much simpler.
And what about the actual amounts that make up the different thingies? 1 mile = 5280 feet, 12 inches = a foot, 1 stone = 14 pounds… (thank Google for the conversions of miles and stones)
But the combos are the worst yet: FPS, PSI, that sort of thing. O_o

I mean, Metric and Imperial are both just counting systems really, but the strange, traditional, highly idiosyncratic and anachronistic values that make up the measures in the Imperial system require you to memorise a lot more and go through more needless mental steps, whereas the simple base 10 counting system in Metric means you can usually work out where you are regardless based on simple logic, even if you don't know much about it.

The connections are so elegant and integrated… Even with temperature: at 0 degrees Celsius water starts to freeze, at 100 degrees Celsius water starts to boil. one litre of water weights 1 kilogram. One litre is 10x10x10 centimetres. So simple :)
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:37PM
BffSatan at 4:01AM, Feb. 3, 2011
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ozoneocean
The connections are so elegant and integrated… Even with temperature: at 0 degrees Celsius water starts to freeze, at 100 degrees Celsius water starts to boil. one litre of water weights 1 kilogram. One litre is 10x10x10 centimetres. So simple :)
It's wonderfully beautiful. Also, while we're at it, paper money. I went overseas a while ago and I constantly felt like it was just going to fall apart in my hands.
bravo1102
Just like Y2K? Everyone runs around like chickens without heads and in labs all over the world techies fix everything and we all wake up the next day to find… nothing happened.
The Y2K problem was pretty overblown anyway. The potential damage would have still been relatively minor to all the “worst case scenarios” predicted.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:21AM
HippieVan at 8:14AM, Feb. 3, 2011
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ozoneocean
Hippie Van
just approved of Usage Based Billing for the internet.
Something the rest of the planet has had to live with since day 1.

That was a bit rude, ozone.

I don't know about internet prices in Australia, but here in Canada there is almost no competition between internet providers, and we're already being massively overcharged for what we get. It's perfectly reasonable for Canadians to get a little upset when they're looking at giving us an even harder kick in the pants.
It costs the service providers max 10 cents, and more accurately around 3 cents per gigabyte of data. On top of the starting rate, these companies are going to be charging 1-5$ per GB over the cap. That means they're charging, at an estimate generous to them, 10-50 times what it cost them. Call me crazy, but it seems like the consumer is getting the fuzzy side of the lollipop there.

Oh, but that's done everywhere? I suppose it's okay then.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 12:49PM
Niccea at 8:23AM, Feb. 3, 2011
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Ah. I couldn't even tell you what water boils at in F. Because the only time I cared about knowing the temperature of boiling water was when I was in school where we use the metric system. So yeah. School has made me royally screwed up. I still have to say inches, feet, and miles, yet I was only taught on the metric system in school…

Also, internet thing. I believe it when I see it. Trust me the people with the “unlimited” internet packages from their service provider will freak if the price goes up. Little changes can upset the masses.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:15PM
HippieVan at 8:45AM, Feb. 3, 2011
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Niccea
Ah. I couldn't even tell you what water boils at in F. Because the only time I cared about knowing the temperature of boiling water was when I was in school where we use the metric system. So yeah. School has made me royally screwed up. I still have to say inches, feet, and miles, yet I was only taught on the metric system in school…

It's funny, in Canada we've changed for pretty much everything except height. I use Celcius, kilometres, litres, centimetres for most measurements and so on…but if you tell me someone is 134cm I would have a very hard time understanding that.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 12:49PM
lefarce at 10:44AM, Feb. 3, 2011
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ozoneocean
The old Imperial system baffles me… it's pretty funny too.
Bushel! Gallon! Pint! Stone! Foot! Furlong, Fathom, grains, … lol!
Then there's the strange fractions…3/8“, 2 3/16” WTF? Decimals are so much simpler.
And what about the actual amounts that make up the different thingies? 1 mile = 5280 feet, 12 inches = a foot, 1 stone = 14 pounds… (thank Google for the conversions of miles and stones)
But the combos are the worst yet: FPS, PSI, that sort of thing. O_o

Basically this. The worst part of math to me is deviding/multiplying fractions. It's so much more irritating than just doing it with decimals. I may be used to feet and miles and whatnot, but metrics make a lot more sense.

 
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:34PM
blindsk at 11:00AM, Feb. 3, 2011
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ozoneocean
The connections are so elegant and integrated… Even with temperature: at 0 degrees Celsius water starts to freeze, at 100 degrees Celsius water starts to boil. one litre of water weights 1 kilogram. One litre is 10x10x10 centimetres. So simple :)

A program I recently watch gave me an interesting fact about that crazy Swedish astronomer. Originally he put 0 as boiling and 100 as freezing! It remained that way until someone else came along, bewildered as to why he scaled it in that manner, flipped it over, and from then on it was used as it is today. Sometimes I wonder if Fahrenheit was the more sensible one - he was trying to match 100 degrees to body temperature!

Anyway, back on topic…I have to agree with others that aren't holding their breath about the internet issue. While we may be in for a rocky year, it will get resolved in time and not at the general public's expense. Honestly, I'm almost hoping that this will work in conjunction with possibly updating our infrastructure, because we need it. Our speeds are years behind South Korea's (and ironically they pay cheaper internet). Then again, maybe we shouldn't complain because while ours is slow, Australia's is even worse, I hear. Rumors abound of the “Australian lag,” which I keep hearing about.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:25AM
Salsa at 11:18AM, Feb. 3, 2011
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@ Dave: Yes, but it's a good bet that a good many of those are owned by big businesses for their Intranets. They aren't likely to give those up without a fight.


@ Everyone else: I think I didn't explain what this Two Tiered system actually is well enough. I apologize in advance if I insult your intelligence.

The Internet as of the moment has a pipeline that connects you to the servers that contain the websites you visit. People either pay an ISP for access to the content and can receive all of the internet's content no matter what it is as long as it's legal. (Obviously this is theoretical, practically, what's available depends on whether or not the government censors everything a la China)

The Two Tier model is what the ISP's and content providers are proposing. You have two tiers. The first tier is the regular internet at the current or slower speed. The second tier is much faster. To use the second tier, a website owner has to pay a fee for access. This means that a lot of free use sites, free content sites, small and medium business sites, and personal websites will not be able to be on this second tier due to the cost. These companies will also charge users for what content they view. Basically, the base package will allow to access a few hundred popular sites, which are owned by the media and ISP conglomerates, the next step up will up that to a several hundred sites, and it'll keep going until you pay a premium for access to all of the sites on the internet.

I think I need to spell this out for emphasis. You pay more for access to a slower pipeline. People are not going to pay more for access to lower quality. The sites that can't afford to pay for access to the high-speed pipeline will wither and die as readership dries up and the site dies.

In short, the ISP's and and their media providers want to squash free speech. While technically this system does not limit free speech, in practice that is exactly is what's going to happen.

This is a nightmare, but this is far from a “worst case never going to happen” scenario. companies are currently trying to halt legislation that would protect the Internet under the First Amendment.
RAGE!
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:19PM
A Reaver at 1:59PM, Feb. 3, 2011
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I dont understand nor do I intend to read enough to understand so I wont even attempt to talk about what I dont know.

Im just gonna enjoy my unlimited internet deal.

Gonna download a terrabyte file now just because I can.

Shiny new comic.
last edited on July 14, 2011 10:44AM
HippieVan at 2:15PM, Feb. 3, 2011
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Thank you for the explanation, Salsa! : )

A Reaver
I dont understand nor do I intend to read enough to understand so I wont even attempt to talk about what I dont know.


Wait…why did you post, then? :P
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last edited on July 14, 2011 12:49PM
A Reaver at 2:17PM, Feb. 3, 2011
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Because I was lonely.

Shiny new comic.
last edited on July 14, 2011 10:44AM
Salsa at 3:18PM, Feb. 3, 2011
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Hippie Van
Thank you for the explanation, Salsa! : )
Thanks, glad I could help.

Oh and I found a petition here that people who want to keep the net neutral can sign.

The site also does a better job of explaining the situation.

Hippie Van Also
A Reaver
I dont understand nor do I intend to read enough to understand so I wont even attempt to talk about what I dont know.


Wait…why did you post, then? :P

Same here. Why did you post then?

I understand that you can, quite easily, get lonely, but this is a little bit more serious. (but you could always join in the next mafia game… just sayin')

edit: wow I can't believe I typed what I had before. Just more proof that you need to proofread your posts.
RAGE!
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:19PM
imshard at 3:32PM, Feb. 3, 2011
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@thread: Oh for the love of Pete we are not going to run out of IP addresses. This is actually a pet peeve of mine.

The IETF approved the IPv6 standard years ago (standard finalized circa 1998) and it is already supported on every major OS and has been successfully integrated into the backbones and trunk lines for all ISPs. I see and fix the servers every day and it will not even be an issue for another 5 years when technologies designed to conserve and extend existing IPv4 address spaces reach capacity. Transition has already reached consumer level with IPv6 enabled routers already available pre-configured from the store. If you bought a computer in the last 3 years the IPv6 protocol is likely already enabled in parallel to IPv4 on your system right now, just waiting for you to configure it. Also this won't really even be a problem for most consumers and small businesses as your local network is normally segmented from the public network spaces by your ISP provided gateway/modem and uses its own addressing schema.

Your ISP likes your money, they will make sure you have a routable WAN address, and probably already has implemented the needed gateway transitions on the back end.

Translation: Don't worry. Its definitely a milestone moment for the Internet but nothing even close to a crisis.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 12:59PM
Salsa at 4:12PM, Feb. 3, 2011
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RAGE!
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:19PM

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