Debate and Discussion

North Korea - Bombs
fire1337 at 7:19AM, June 24, 2009
(offline)
posts: 32
joined: 5-15-2008
I think we all pretty much know what North Korea is doing with their bombs. (I dont haft to find a source, but if someone could, that'd be nice). This could very well lead to another war.
I mean, Korea is pretty powerful, amirite? But, I mean, they dont have a chance against the US, Russia AND China. But why are they threatening to bomb us? It could lead to another war, and they would use all of their money and become a shithole! If you ask me, Korea should stop their crap.
Discuss.
CAN YOU SEE MY SIG!?!?
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:29PM
ozoneocean at 7:35AM, June 24, 2009
(online)
posts: 24,997
joined: 1-2-2004
North Korea can't bomb anyone except the south. If their missiles really did work they'd probably be able to attack Japan.

They won't. They're just scarred.
They have no friends or supporters, not in the whole world. Everyone is their enemy. Not even China can be relied upon any longer.

But eventually the regime will collapse. Cult of personality dictatorships like that can't survive multiple generations.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:34PM
Hyena H_ll at 9:38AM, June 24, 2009
(online)
posts: 1,568
joined: 11-13-2008
ozoneocean
But eventually the regime will collapse. Cult of personality dictatorships like that can't survive multiple generations.
Usually not for more than a couple, at least- Papa and Baby Doc Duvalier, in Haiti, for example.

But I think it's mostly swagger; I'm more concerned about Pakistan, honestly. The political situation over there is much more volatile, and you have the added danger of terrorist organizations in the vicinity.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:52PM
bravo1102 at 4:29PM, June 24, 2009
(online)
posts: 3,325
joined: 1-21-2008
ozoneocean
North Korea can't bomb anyone except the south. If their missiles really did work they'd probably be able to attack Japan.

But eventually the regime will collapse. Cult of personality dictatorships like that can't survive multiple generations.

There is one thing about cult of personality dictatorships. Every once in a while the dictator knows he is on his way out and decides to take everyone else with him. What if the North Koreans go for the Gotterdammerung scenario?

North Korea can hit Japan with the ballistic missiles they already have.

I will now stop before I start making Team America references.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:33AM
Ryan_Scott at 5:33PM, June 24, 2009
(online)
posts: 309
joined: 10-5-2008
They'll NEVER grow enough balls to hit Japan… Japan have GODZILLA THE GIANT RADIOCTIVE GECKO and I'm also pretty sure they have a sweet arse motherfucking secret army of MECHS and biotech samurai!!! NOT TO BE FUCKED WITH!!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:15PM
bravo1102 at 4:56AM, June 25, 2009
(online)
posts: 3,325
joined: 1-21-2008
Ryan_Scott
They'll NEVER grow enough balls to hit Japan… Japan have GODZILLA THE GIANT RADIOCTIVE GECKO and I'm also pretty sure they have a sweet arse motherfucking secret army of MECHS and biotech samurai!!! NOT TO BE FUCKED WITH!!!!

Flinging DVDs and mangas at the North Koreans wouldn't really do very much.

Though if they could send out all the cute Japanese babes in current youth fashion and that would distract the North Koreans long enough for a vicious counter attack. They'd give up the glorious leader in a nanosecond for a piece of that.

You think North Korea has anything like that? Hell no, they're all starving, dirty peasants; not hawt anime/manga babes with ice blue or fuschia colored hair.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:33AM
Hawk at 12:43PM, June 25, 2009
(online)
posts: 2,760
joined: 1-2-2006
Man, good luck getting the Koreans to enjoy anything Japanese. They're still a bit sore over WW2.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:46PM
kyupol at 4:05PM, June 25, 2009
(online)
posts: 3,712
joined: 1-12-2006
The west should stop threatening North Korea because the more you threaten them, the more you increase the chance of a nuclear war.

Do not blockade them. Do not put sanctions on them. As that will only affect the average North Korean.

Meanwhile, Kim Jong Il and his fellow gangsters (thats what they are. Every country in the world is run by mafia thugs but thats another topic) are still gonna have their lavish palaces, first class meals, and expensive prostitutes.

Leave them alone (like thats gonna happen. North Korea is beneficial to the New World Order!!!).

For everyone's info here, Donald Rumsfeld supplied North Korea with the nukes.
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2003/05/12/342316/index.htm
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/05/09/1052280441337.html

Why did he supply them nukes?

Its to help them build up and create another boogey man to scare you into giving up more of your rights.

And also, war is business for the military-industrial-complex. Money and power are more precious than human lives. Thats what it all boils down to.

NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:26PM
PIT_FACE at 4:41PM, June 25, 2009
(online)
posts: 2,588
joined: 4-21-2007
Kim jung il's shit in so many cheerios, im suprised he hasnt been picked off by anyone yet from all the threats. children over there are raised to beleive he's god, yet he puts them all in danger of obliteration from all the shit he slings. really, if he did attack Hawaii in the comming weeks, i dont think we'd counter attack by sheer bombings and large scale devistation, becuase that'd be killing a lot of civilians, and we're supposed to be above that kind of thing. but im sure there's other powers that dont hold those ideals, and wether they have nukes or not, it could be DEVASTATING.

how do we overcome this? what would be the costs of life of invasion vs a full scale attack? with an invasion, people from both sides would die, a lot of people, and if we were successful, many people over there would probably kill themselves anyways. that's what would have happened in Japan if we'd invaded them out of loyalty to the emporer. those who wouldn't have done it willingly would have been FORCED to. in an attack from another country, a lot of people will still probably die. and i dont know how we'd be able to persuade the people of N.Korea that they're in great danger and need to overthrow their dictatorship. hasnt worked so far. but it's the most “peaceful” way i see anything happening besides assassination. though there'd still be bloodshed. and assassination would probably hail him as a martyr. isnt his health failing? the only way i see this being bloodless is how his son handles it after he goes, but i dont know anything about him.

the Korean war never really ended. my grandpa ws an ambulence driver in the war, he and other veterans must by disgusted.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:45PM
kyupol at 6:07PM, June 25, 2009
(online)
posts: 3,712
joined: 1-12-2006
Ron Paul has the right idea on what to do with North Korea.



NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:26PM
PIT_FACE at 7:43PM, June 25, 2009
(online)
posts: 2,588
joined: 4-21-2007
i would hope that could work.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:45PM
fire1337 at 11:39AM, June 26, 2009
(offline)
posts: 32
joined: 5-15-2008
One atomic bomb could take them out.
I dont want to haft to resort to saying that though.
CAN YOU SEE MY SIG!?!?
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:29PM
Orin J Master at 12:18PM, June 26, 2009
(online)
posts: 437
joined: 12-16-2007
fire1337
One atomic bomb could take them out.
I dont want to haft to resort to saying that though.

one bad shipment of rice could take them out at this point. bluff and bluster, but they're in amazingly bad shape all told, and this craps just robbing them of the goodwill they need to keep their crappy tinpot dictatorship afloat.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:22PM
El Cid at 8:50PM, June 26, 2009
(online)
posts: 972
joined: 5-4-2009
fire1337
One atomic bomb could take them out.
I dont want to haft to resort to saying that though.

One of the problems when dealing with a militarized backwater like North Korea is that they have a lot less to lose than we do. They don't mind dying all that much, but we and our allies tend to mind quite a bit. Sure, they'd lose in a conventional military engagement with the U.S., but it wouldn't be as quick and painless as we'd like to think it would be. No amount of nuclear strikes is going to take out their bunkers and tunnels, even if we were willing to go that route, and the second we began our offensive, both Japan and South Korea would get clobbered by the first round of counterstrikes. Some of the projected casualty figures I've seen from that scenario are just downright scary, and those don't even take into account the possibility that maybe a few of those missiles Kim Jong Il launches might have nuclear warheads on them. And when the smoke clears, how much worse off can the North Koreans possibly be? They're already isolated, poor, and miserable.

And while it's unlikely, it's not entirely guaranteed the U.S. mainland would be safe from Kim Jong Il's deadly midget wrath if we attacked him. His nukes can't reach us by way of an ICBM just yet, but that's not to say he couldn't send us a few lead-lined shipping containers with a festive sparkly surprise tucked away inside. What's to stop him? What's he got to lose? The North Koreans are scary because there's a lot of really bad things they could do to us and our friends abroad if we provoke them, so it's better to just leave 'em alone as much as possible, and hope the regime falls sooner rather than later.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:20PM
ozoneocean at 12:51AM, June 27, 2009
(online)
posts: 24,997
joined: 1-2-2004
Being scared of NK is like being scared of a little venomous spider. That doesn't mean the poor spider doesn't like living as much as you do and would mind losing it's life just so you can be happier about yours.

I say accommodate them. No more of these stupid sanctions. Get as close and as possible.That's the only way to prevent their foolishness.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:34PM
bravo1102 at 10:19AM, June 28, 2009
(online)
posts: 3,325
joined: 1-21-2008
ozoneocean
Being scared of NK is like being scared of a little venomous spider. That doesn't mean the poor spider doesn't like living as much as you do and would mind losing it's life just so you can be happier about yours.

I say accommodate them. No more of these stupid sanctions. Get as close and as possible.That's the only way to prevent their foolishness.

I agree. The USA should do the same thing with Cuba already.

But what if that venomous spider would kill you with its bite? If you tried to squish it the bite could be deadly. That's the nuke falling on Seoul or even Tokyo. If the Koreans are still so hateful of all things Japanese (which they aren't as far as consumer goods and entertainment goes; from the model building world Academy versus Hasegawa/Tamiya)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:33AM
Orin J Master at 5:02PM, June 28, 2009
(online)
posts: 437
joined: 12-16-2007
ozoneocean
Being scared of NK is like being scared of a little venomous spider. That doesn't mean the poor spider doesn't like living as much as you do and would mind losing it's life just so you can be happier about yours.

I say accommodate them. No more of these stupid sanctions. Get as close and as possible.That's the only way to prevent their foolishness.

there's no point in giving them what they want. mainly because what they (the government)want to take over south korea, and generally be exempt from their mriad stupid actions. a spider you can reason with insofar as if you leave it alone it won't randomly chase you five blocks so it can try to bite you. north korea is run by an emotionally haywire manchild and his crack team of duplicious suckups.

they're being leaned on because they've proven, MANY TIMES, that they can't play nice with the rest of the world.

bravo1102
I agree. The USA should do the same thing with Cuba already.

But what if that venomous spider would kill you with its bite? If you tried to squish it the bite could be deadly. That's the nuke falling on Seoul or even Tokyo. If the Koreans are still so hateful of all things Japanese (which they aren't as far as consumer goods and entertainment goes; from the model building world Academy versus Hasegawa/Tamiya)

the difference there is that Korea is an independant nation mostly next to china, who they need be friends with to survive, while Cuba was heavily supported by other communist nations and next to the US, who they disliked/were egged into hating. the analogy doesn't actually work.

which isn't to say the cuban embargos serve any purpose now, except for politicians to whine over as a matter of “national defense”.

SIDE NOTE: if an elected offical is telling you what will keep the country safe, check the hell out of their military credentials. most of them are making stupid guesses because they're fat lazy A-holes that think they know better than the front lines.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:22PM
bravo1102 at 5:09AM, June 29, 2009
(online)
posts: 3,325
joined: 1-21-2008
Someone
SIDE NOTE: if an elected offical is telling you what will keep the country safe, check the hell out of their military credentials. most of them are making stupid guesses because they're fat lazy A-holes that think they know better than the front lines.

Mind me asking what are your military creds? ;)

Cuba and NK are very analgous in how they can be brought down. Cuba has greater sentimental importance to the USA than Korea. Korea is more important strategically. As far as where they are and who supports them, it's the same. Walk into the arsenal of either and you'll see the same “Made in…” tags. China is using NK just like the USSR used Cuba.

I really don't feel like going back to comparing Stalin, the brand new PRC the 1950s, to Khruschev, Eisenhower, the early 1960s blah, blah and so on and so on. It's the same shit. Different hemisphere. Same shit.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:33AM
ozoneocean at 5:29AM, June 29, 2009
(online)
posts: 24,997
joined: 1-2-2004
Orin J Master
they've proven, MANY TIMES, that they can't play nice with the rest of the world.
Who the hell does? lol!

Wow, what an old fashioned, imperial, patriarchal view of the world.
The only way to change places like NK and Cuba is through inclusion, not exclusion.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:34PM
Orin J Master at 10:49AM, June 29, 2009
(online)
posts: 437
joined: 12-16-2007
ozoneocean
The only way to change places like NK and Cuba is through inclusion, not exclusion.

Ugh. north korea's government is an unstable dictorial shithouse that can't keep it's people fed because it's too busy trying to prove it can beat everyone up, if they're actually allowed to have nukes then not only will they threaten to attack people constantly*, but the UN will have to intervene on their behalf when the people rebel against their crazy leaders!

including them is like letting the mentally challenged kid that bites people all the time hang out with you to make him feel accepted. you feel like a jerk because it's not his fault his brain is trying to attack everyone, but then you accept that his fault or not it's a pain in the ass to deal with that you have no responsibility for.


*okay, they do this now, but then the world would have to treat them like a major threat every time they start their tantrums instead of the current “ignore them and they'll go away” method, which works well enough.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:22PM
fire1337 at 3:42PM, June 29, 2009
(offline)
posts: 32
joined: 5-15-2008
We are king of straying off topic.
No, here is what would happen:
They would bomb us. We would bomb them after a mini-war. After that, China will get angry and all of its allies would side with China. When the smoke clears, there will be another WW3

Am i right?
CAN YOU SEE MY SIG!?!?
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:29PM
Product Placement at 4:33PM, June 29, 2009
(online)
posts: 7,078
joined: 10-18-2007
fire1337
Am i right?
No, not really. North Korea is not capable of developing missiles that could reach Europe, let alone America. It took America and Russia decades to develop intercontinental missiles. Before that they were faced with the problem that neither of them could launch a missile at each other, without setting up a missile silo closer to their border.

Nukes is also considered by many to be the great nullifier. If North Korea, or any country with nuclear arsenal would dare to use their WMD against another nation with similar weaponry, their enemy would respond in kin. Mutual assured destruction is the concept that keeps those missiles from being launched. Nobody has come up with a fool proof plan to use these weapons today without destroying themselves in the progress. If that problem would ever be solved by one side, the likelihood that these missiles would start to fly would increase drastically.

In short, North Korea would never be dumb enough to use these weapons against their neighbors because they'd be turned into a glass crater after receiving 50+ nuclear strikes from other nuclear powered nations.

Even if that scenario would happen, the 3rd world war wouldn't spontaneously happen. People would be too traumatized by the fact North Korea had just used nukes against another nation and that the retaliation strikes had subsequently wiped them of the face of the map. Millions would be dead which would instill into people how devastating a war with these kind of weapons would be. If anything, an event such as this would help stabilize global relations even more.
Those were my two cents.
If you have any other questions, please deposit a quarter.
This space for rent.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:51PM
Orin J Master at 4:37PM, June 29, 2009
(online)
posts: 437
joined: 12-16-2007
nope. like Ozone said:

ozoneocean
North Korea can't bomb anyone except the south. If their missiles really did work they'd probably be able to attack Japan.

They won't. They're just scarred.

they like to talk a big game, because the only way their government keeps it's people in check is by convincing them the military is something to be feared. in fact the US is just used as a big scary boogyman for them to direct their threats at because we're not going to bother with them. most of the middle east does this too. well, most everywhere, really. er, back to topic.

they'd actually go after the south because (as i recall off the top of my head, might be wrong) the north wants to take it over and “reunify” korea. which would piss everyone off at them for trying, which would probably make the take potshots at anyone aiding the south, and finally would find north korea getting handed it's ass back to it, albiet with a pointless loss of life.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:22PM
imshard at 5:46PM, June 29, 2009
(online)
posts: 2,961
joined: 7-26-2007
fire1337
We are king of straying off topic.
No, here is what would happen:
They would bomb us. We would bomb them after a mini-war. After that, China will get angry and all of its allies would side with China. When the smoke clears, there will be another WW3

Am i right?

No. You aren't. In a worst case scenario, maybe but in all likelihood China would stamp their foot and whine if they did anything at all and the rest of the world would hang Kim by his entrails.

Not to deflate anyone's balloon but NK is like a venomous spider. Deadly if you let it bite your neck but easy to crush under a boot. Let's examine the factors in play:

Nukes: The seismic readings and known material counts mean that NK has both the ability and expertise to build nukes. They tested a functional 1KT device that, fortunately for their enemies, fizzled. In May they tested 10-20kt bomb that did work, based on public proclamations and seismic readings. Its proven, the inspectors found and confirmed the weapons grade material. At least half the fuss has come from NK refusing to turn it over.

Range: NK missiles have been successfully launched and guided to targets beyond the range it would take to hit Japan. We just don't know if the NKs have made nukes light and small enough to fit in one. Though even carrying conventional loads they could ruin the world economy by hitting Taiwan or Japan or even turning on its big brother (unlikely) and hitting factory row in China.

Willingness: It just ain't gonna happen on its own. IF they were going to break the cease fire (in case you forgot the UN and all its member nations are still officially at war with them) it would have happened by now. That said the paranoid are afraid they're just bidding their time until they have sufficient might OR they're just waiting for somebody to invade. either way it wouldn't be pretty. the propaganda machine in that country is frightening in its sheer ubiquity. from the time you wake til the time you sleep you cannot escape the PA systems broadcasting a constant stream of hard-line communist/super-nationalist spin, policy, and news. at least some of that will rub off on every man woman and child in the country.
Should there be an invasion there would be enough fanatics and ideology to last a century and make Iraq look like a cake-walk.

I'm content to let them stew and become irrelevant. We can just keep up the siege until they either break or come to the table for an actual peace treaty.

EDIT: I'm mostly not worried because their weapons program needs about a years's work before its viable
Don't be a stick in the mud traditionalist! Support global warming!

Tech Support: The Comic!! Updates Somedays!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:58PM
El Cid at 9:47PM, June 29, 2009
(online)
posts: 972
joined: 5-4-2009
imshard
I'm mostly not worried because their weapons program needs about a years's work before its viable

Umm… yunno, a year is not all that long, actually!

I agree btw with the sentiment that there's no point in making concessions to the Northies; they have nothing to offer anyone and they can't bully the United States (that's OUR job, thank yew very much!)

If THEY wanna make concessions to us, maybe sometime after the Dear Leader's croaked, that'll be awesome. Otherwise, there's no reason we can't sit back and watch ‘em rot indefinitely. It’s kinda entertaining,really. I'd miss their antics if the Northies went soft on us all of a sudden.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:20PM
fire1337 at 6:47AM, June 30, 2009
(offline)
posts: 32
joined: 5-15-2008
I heard some time ago that smoke was coming from their nuclear power plants.
Russia and China are trying to get NK to cut the crap with the nukes. Like someone else already said, though. NK has no allies. They wouldnt dare strike the US because they know they would get buttraped. Like I said, they have no allies. The US, has a lot of allies. So, common sense would say that they wouldnt bomb us. And, even if they did bomb Japan, they would still get buttraped.
They just cant win. The emperor is throwing them into suicide.

I can wait until he gets assassinated or dies. He is making NK look like a shithole.
CAN YOU SEE MY SIG!?!?
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:29PM
theprettiestpony at 6:55AM, June 30, 2009
(offline)
posts: 29
joined: 10-8-2007
i think the word that the pentagon used to sum up north korea's ambitions is pretty appropriate: “silliness.”
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:25PM
imshard at 10:46AM, June 30, 2009
(online)
posts: 2,961
joined: 7-26-2007
fire1337
I heard some time ago that smoke was coming from their nuclear power plants.
Russia and China are trying to get NK to cut the crap with the nukes. Like someone else already said, though. NK has no allies. They wouldnt dare strike the US because they know they would get buttraped. Like I said, they have no allies. The US, has a lot of allies. So, common sense would say that they wouldnt bomb us. And, even if they did bomb Japan, they would still get buttraped.
They just cant win. The emperor is throwing them into suicide.

I can wait until he gets assassinated or dies. He is making NK look like a shithole.

China and Russia are still strong supporters and continue to vouch for and assist NK in the UN. Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam also comprise regional friends but pose little threat. It is unlikely they would act against a UN or USA action militarily.

Despite the daily operation as a communist regime the effective power structure is more like a monarchy. The current government was founded by Kim Jong-Il's father Kim Sung-Il and is likely to be succeeded by his son Kim Jong-un. Rumors have been circulating for a long time about Kim Jong-Ils health ranging from confirmed reports of strokes and worsening diabetes all the way to extreme rumors that he is in fact already dead and is being impersonated by a set of his body-doubles under command of the government. Even so, Kim Jong-un promises to be identical to his father in policy and temperament when his father finally steps down or dies publicly.
Don't be a stick in the mud traditionalist! Support global warming!

Tech Support: The Comic!! Updates Somedays!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:58PM
bravo1102 at 5:46AM, July 1, 2009
(online)
posts: 3,325
joined: 1-21-2008
Imshard got it right. However I still can't keep from thinking that China is playing NK for suckers and using them to test their future enemies. Or have I read Sun Tzu too much?

The Russians also played the NKs for suckers in the 1950-53 conflict and possibly still are. This could be another reason why they'd like to flex their own muscles.

Despite all the loud speakers and “brainwashing” the morale of the population is believed to be very fragile. A lot of the population in North Korea know what is going on in the South and even in China and they want a piece of that not a starving shithole. In 1950 the NK army was tough but that was before 50 years of economic growth in the south and they still have no air force.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:33AM
lothar at 8:56AM, July 1, 2009
(online)
posts: 1,299
joined: 1-3-2006
i live really close to North Korea , like as close as LA is to San Francisco , i am more worried about spiders in the kitchen than i am about the Norths bombs .
kim jong should be overthrown , but not for the nuke thing , for human rights violations , the North Korean people are basicaly slaves to his regime . instead of dropping bombs , the UN should drop millions of tiny radios all over the place so the people in North Korea can find out wuts going on outside , then maybe they can get the courage to fite against him
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:45PM

Forgot Password
©2011 WOWIO, Inc. All Rights Reserved