Debate and Discussion

Obama hates babies...
kingofsnake at 11:47AM, April 16, 2008
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I didn't attack anybody. Except maybe you for saying hypocritical things.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:16PM
Comicracy at 12:12PM, April 16, 2008
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Ok, you got me on the whole “out of context” issue. But whats said is said, does it really matter if someone says something and what the context is, unless that peson is reading from a movie script why should it, Oh wait Obamas been doing that with McCain by saying he plans to stay in Iraq for 100 years, thats a little out of context dont you think?

Cant attack the message so attack the messenger.

And for the record, I dont know what else you would title a subject of a man voting “present” on a bill to puncture the skull of a fetus, suck all its brains out and then rip the remaining bits from a woman in her third trimester.

I guess instead of calling this post Barrack hates babies this would have been more adequate.

“Barrack approves the destruction of a perfectly good human being.”


last edited on July 14, 2011 11:44AM
SpANG at 12:28PM, April 16, 2008
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Comicracy
Funny, you cant attack the points I just made so you have to attack the other candidates, right out of the liberal playbook as always…How can we have a president with ties to a known terrorist…
You are talking about Obama's alleged ‘ties’ to William Ayers, of The Weather Underground, a group that bombed the U.S. Capitol and the Pentagon during the 1970s. Obama was an eight-year-old child when Ayers and the Weathermen were active. Your accusation is both idiotic and inflammatory. Not that you care.

By the way, niether George W. Bush or George HW Bush are CANDIDATES. But they DO have DIRECT TIES to the Bin Laden family. You are willing to give them a pass, though right?

Yeah, we are using the liberal playbook. And you are using the FOX NEWS one. Honestly. Hannity, Limbaugh, and O'Reily spew your exact load of tripe, word-for word.

Comicracy
…how can we have a president whos wife has never been proud of america until her adult life…
“For the first time in my adult life, I am proud of my country,” she (Michelle Obama) told a Milwaukee crowd today, “because it feels like hope is making a comeback.”
I am proud of my country too. I'm proud that most of us don't have the barrier of race between us and making the correct political descision.

Comicracy
…how can we have a president who belittles middle class americans in throughout the country by stating they cling to their guns and religion because they are bitter.
The quote was: “It's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.”

Well, I for one, AM BITTER. AND I LIVE IN PA. I've been bitter since about 2003, when George Bush, with all his idiocy, made me politically minded by ruining the country and running up the debt to astronomical levels. I was also bitter when the election was STOLEN in 2004. I have SEVERAL FRIENDS that are bitter that they lost their jobs overseas, while this government and this president did NOTHING to protect them. And when the chips are down (which they ARE VERY MUCH in PA) people turn to religion. And when they feel a government is not protecting them, yes, they buy more guns. I used to be very anti-gun and then I realized it's the only defense we have against and out of control government. Just like our founding fathers meant it to be.

So all the fat-cats in Washington that want to use that sound byte should probably listen to it rather than discounting it. They shouldn't have a fat, white, rich political operative come out and say “everything is fine here” without even listening to the people.

Oh, and it's Americans. Capital A.

Finally…
Comicracy
Next will come the personel attacks. Oh wait they already have.
Yeah. Because clearly you are above all that, as anyone can plainly see…
Comicracy
You people are so blinded by your man love for Barrack and his pretty speaches.
Comicracy
…be a baby then and let the Government take care of it, thats what you'll get with Obama.
Comicracy
…I see all you are still drinking the kool aid and believing the first thing you read/see about Barrack, your golden calf is being propped up by the media long enough.
Oh, I was told this was a racist statement from somebody. Is that the way you meant it?

I know I said you were ‘acting obtuse’. For that I apologize. You obviously were not acting.


Comicracy
“Barrack approves the destruction of a perfectly good human being.”
The Supreme court says otherwise. And I trust them more than you.
“To a rational mind, nothing is inexplicable. Only unexplained.”
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:53PM
kingofsnake at 12:33PM, April 16, 2008
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SpANG
I know I said you were ‘acting obtuse’. For that I apologize. You obviously were not acting.

I love you spang. I lol'ed
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:16PM
Hawk at 12:41PM, April 16, 2008
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Actions mean way more than words, so if a person is really interested in finding the right candidate they'll look at things the candidate has done. What bills have the supported? How has their political career gone thus far? It's important look at what they say they'll do, but we all know of the discrepancy between a politician's promises and what actually happens. Bush Senior's “Read my lips” remark marked him for the rest of his presidency.

I guess what I'm saying is that it's silly to choose a president based on words and quotes that have been twisted to sound as offensive as possible. It doesn't mean anything. All of us have said things that held meanings we didn't intend. Give it a rest. Start looking at actions instead.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:46PM
Comicracy at 12:50PM, April 16, 2008
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Um for the record the Kool Aid reference is about drinking Kool Aid laced with strictnine because someone tells you to, like the cult in Jonestown South Africa did, its in no way racist slur but nice try at race bating and for you to assume that it means that you must have some underlying racists notions of your own and for you to imply it on me who happens to be married to a “non-white” person just shows how ignorant you are. Did Bush steal the election in 2004, or 2000, which one, anyway every independent recount in the state of florida has given Bush the win. So the stole it thing, just isn't true, quit crying about it. Im not a Bushbot like the fox news crew either, I dont listen to Rush sorry, so I am not going to defend his ties to the Arab billionares, but I think the Blame Bush for everything crowd is a big trendy following led by George Sorrows media machine, and lets face it its trendy, but lets not forget who has a bigger disaproval rating among the AMERICAN people then the president is democratic controlled congress.

And by the way I am originally from PA too. I took what he said as offensive, I guess its all in how you see it.

Once again you have diverted the discussion to something other then the topic.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:44AM
kingofsnake at 12:57PM, April 16, 2008
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Comicracy
Um for the record the Kool Aid reference is about drinking Kool Aid laced with strictnine because someone tells you to, like the cult in Jonestown South Africa did, its in no way racist slur but nice try at race bating and for you to assume that it means that you must have some underlying racists notions of your own and for you to imply it on me who happens to be married to a “non-white” person just shows how ignorant you are.

OF COURSE! That reference is WAY less vauge then the “black people drink kool aid” slur! All the rest of you people should feel ashamed you didn't immediately know he was referring to a South African cult .

I know I was like “Racism? Clearly he's referring to a mass suicide from the 1970s. How could you even make that mistake?”
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:16PM
SpANG at 1:32PM, April 16, 2008
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Um for the record the Kool Aid reference is about drinking Kool Aid laced with strictnine because someone tells you to, like the cult in Jonestown South Africa did, its in no way racist slur but nice try at race bating and for you to assume that it means that you must have some underlying racists notions of your own and for you to imply it on me who happens to be married to a “non-white” person just shows how ignorant you are.
Actually I wasn't sure if the person that sent me the quote was referring to the “kool aid” or the “golden calf” reference. Since I didn't understand, I asked. But thanks for clearing that up.

Anyway, I won't be drinking any of your “Kool-Aid”. It's laced with inaccuracies and ignorance. ;)

“To a rational mind, nothing is inexplicable. Only unexplained.”
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:53PM
Comicracy at 1:33PM, April 16, 2008
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Your the one saying black people drink Kool Aid. I guess I could see how you could confuse the statement I made earlier, well that just goes to show you that sometimes people mispeak or are interpretted wrong, Ok, you win, Go Obama!

Funny how when you dont agree with facts they become innacurate.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:44AM
SpANG at 1:37PM, April 16, 2008
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Comicracy
Funny how when you dont agree with facts they become innacurate.

You have yet to present any "Fact'. Just sound bytes and spin. That's society though. I don't blame you. Except, you can look your ‘facts’ up yourself to prove them wrong. Just because some blow hard says lies over and over again doesn't make them true, sorry.
“To a rational mind, nothing is inexplicable. Only unexplained.”
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:53PM
kingofsnake at 1:39PM, April 16, 2008
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Funny how when you dont agree with facts they become innacurate.

Yes, I also find that funny! Also blantantly spinning half-truths out of context in order to justify a ridiculous position is funny.

Just to let you know, I shared this forum with some people at my work, and we had a good laugh.

I guess you just don't get it
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:16PM
bobhhh at 2:06PM, April 16, 2008
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Um for the record the Kool Aid reference is about drinking Kool Aid laced with strictnine because someone tells you to, like the cult in Jonestown South Africa did,

Actually I thought you were implying he was tripping, as it electric Kool aid!!

Oh and Jonestown was in Guyana in South America.


My name is Bob and I approved this signature.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:30AM
Comicracy at 2:18PM, April 16, 2008
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Well have you figured out the golden calf yet, I will give you a hint, “Moses”

How can the exact words even taken out of context be innacurate. I can see how they can get spun, but if you cut away from all of the commentary you have the exact words, yet you choose to put your own spin on them to benefit your personal ideals.

If someone walked up to you on the streets and said, “I can see your bitter and you are coping with it by clinging to your guns and religion.” would it strike you as sort of offensive.

Hey you showed the people at work? Well most of the people I worked with for the last five years of my life in the Military arent laughing.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:44AM
bobhhh at 2:24PM, April 16, 2008
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SpANG
Comicracy
Funny how when you dont agree with facts they become innacurate.

You have yet to present any "Fact'. Just sound bytes and spin. That's society though. I don't blame you. Except, you can look your ‘facts’ up yourself to prove them wrong. Just because some blow hard says lies over and over again doesn't make them true, sorry.

Except when it's these guys…
My name is Bob and I approved this signature.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:30AM
SpANG at 2:32PM, April 16, 2008
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Hey you showed the people at work? Well most of the people I worked with for the last five years of my life in the Military arent laughing.
Finally, some accuracy.
“To a rational mind, nothing is inexplicable. Only unexplained.”
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:53PM
Comicracy at 2:39PM, April 16, 2008
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There not laughing because they dont want to be put on trial by the UN like Obama proposes.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:44AM
bobhhh at 2:43PM, April 16, 2008
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Well have you figured out the golden calf yet, I will give you a hint, “Moses”

How can the exact words even taken out of context be innacurate. I can see how they can get spun, but if you cut away from all of the commentary you have the exact words, yet you choose to put your own spin on them to benefit your personal ideals.

If someone walked up to you on the streets and said, “I can see your bitter and you are coping with it by clinging to your guns and religion.” would it strike you as sort of offensive.

Hey you showed the people at work? Well most of the people I worked with for the last five years of my life in the Military arent laughing.

You want some facts. This country has gone to shit in 8 short years because of bush and his ilk. Companies and super rich folks are richer and recieve more tax breaks and subsidies, while poor folks are poorer and get their meager assistance cut and get ignored in times of crisis.

We are bankrupting our future occupying a country we entered twice without provocation and proceeded to fuck up so badly that now after nearly a trillion dollars, we are in danger of leaving it worse than when we found it. We keep denying the truth of our dwindling resources and rape our planet because “hey, thats not our problem, let the next generation worry about climate change, as long as we can make some fat money.”

And the smokescreen is always values issues. Abortion, flag burning amendments, defense of marriage acts, and xenophobia about our borders. Obabma had it right. Its not that these people don't come by their values honestly, its that the conservatives use these issues to pander to their fear. If these conservatives are such patriots, why don't they demand that mega corporations pay their fkn taxes??

Working class folks should by any sense of reality should be storming the boardrooms and placing CEO's heads on pikes in the market square for offshoring their futures from their convenient offices in the Kaman Islands. But instead they fall for the worst kind of fear mongering from the right where the Democrats, the only party that even marginally gives a shit about them, are painted as soulless, godless commies who want to kill babies and burn the flag while chanting in French.

If being pissed about all those poor folks in red states who voted for dipshit twice against their own interests and mine makes me an elitist, the color me elitist.
My name is Bob and I approved this signature.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:30AM
radarig at 3:35PM, April 16, 2008
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bobhhh
Working class folks should by any sense of reality should be storming the boardrooms and placing CEO's heads on pikes in the market square for offshoring their futures from their convenient offices in the Kaman Islands. But instead they fall for the worst kind of fear mongering from the right where the Democrats, the only party that even marginally gives a shit about them, are painted as soulless, godless commies who want to kill babies and burn the flag while chanting in French.

If being pissed about all those poor folks in red states who voted for dipshit twice against their own interests and mine makes me an elitist, the color me elitist.

To play devil's advocate here, I think there are two counterpoints to suggesting people should vote with their interests purely:

1) In the reverse argument, millionaire liberal democrats that support Obama or Clinton would be far better off voting their interests and siding with the guy who wants to make GWB's tax cuts permanent. These people are voting with their values rather than their interests, and the Democrats encourage it, but at the same time they express, as Obama was actually doing in the full context of the “bitter” comments, frustration that blue-collar americans vote values over interests.

2) Part of the problem is that Democrats are seen as patronizing BECAUSE they make this suggestion. It isn't really fair, because it's a legitimate point to make, but the fact that they are the party that has that burden allows the GOP to spin it as elitism, i.e. "the Democrats feel entitled to your vote, but we want you to vote with your heart." The GOP conversely doesn't need to bemoan (even though they do it in the context of negative spin on the Dems) deep-pocket support because it really only takes one rich person to fund a political action committee or something like that. All of that is done in the backrooms, at any rate; appealing to the masses is the Democrat's burden at this point in our culture, and that has to be done in the public.

EDIT: #2 is less a counterpoint and more a reason why making that kind of statement is just a bad idea. Anyway.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:58PM
Kohdok at 4:14PM, April 16, 2008
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Comicracy
How can the exact words even taken out of context be innacurate. I can see how they can get spun, but if you cut away from all of the commentary you have the exact words, yet you choose to put your own spin on them to benefit your personal ideals.

Wow, I might see this as progress if you understood why. The way you quoted Mr. Obama and the meaning you gave it showed you were only paying attention to that one line. If you read what the rest of it said, your decision on what it meant might change. You were attempting to demonize what was otherwise a perfectly acceptable statement in my eyes about the possible consequences of being uneducated about sex.

Technically, with enough “…”s being used to remove words in between, you could have anyone say “I…hate…gay…people.” without paying attention to the rest of the statement. Taking something out of context in itself is folly, and skewing it is even more so.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:20PM
SpANG at 4:39PM, April 16, 2008
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There not laughing because they dont want to be put on trial by the UN like Obama proposes.
That would be horrible. The US being accountable for their actions around the world.

Sounds like Obama is actually speaking like a world leader to me.

Though I don't know it's true. I have a hard time believing what you say. Call me crazy.
“To a rational mind, nothing is inexplicable. Only unexplained.”
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:53PM
Kilre at 5:43PM, April 16, 2008
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Comicracy
They're not laughing because they don't want to be put on trial by the UN like Obama proposes.

Find me the speech where he said that. I've been combing the internet for an hour with no luck so far.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:15PM
Comicracy at 5:50PM, April 16, 2008
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Thats funny it took me like two seconds to find it. Senate bill 2433.


http://fiveboxes.com/2008/02/19/call-to-action-obama%E2%80%99s-un-tax-proposal-s2433-up-for-senate-vote/

last edited on July 14, 2011 11:44AM
Kilre at 6:28PM, April 16, 2008
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From that page you linked…

Someone
Those who favor Barack Obama because he is for “change” should see an example of what kind of change he is in favor of before voting for him. For example, Senate Bill 2433, which was just sped on the fast-track through committee and is now up for a full Senate vote:

The legislation would commit the U.S. to spending 0.7 percent of gross national product on foreign aid, which amounts to a phenomenal 13-year total of $845 billion over and above what the U.S. already spends.



The bill defines the term “Millennium Development Goals” as the goals set out in the United Nations Millennium Declaration, General Assembly Resolution 55/2 (2000).



In addition to seeking to eradicate poverty, that declaration commits nations to banning “small arms and light weapons” and ratifying a series of treaties, including the International Criminal Court Treaty, the Kyoto Protocol (global warming treaty), the Convention on Biological Diversity, the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women, and the Convention on the Rights of the Child.

So, while giving speeches saying “It’s time to stop spending billions of dollars a week trying to put Iraq back together and start spending the money on putting America back together instead,” he actually proposes legislation that would send billions of dollars overseas?

Barack also wants to spend $210 Billion on federal “green collar” jobs, and fund it by taxing carbon emissions and cutting corporate tax breaks. At this rate, the United States will be poor and looking for help from other countries before long. Oh wait, we already are. But getting further into debt is okay?

The real solution to global poverty — like any other form of poverty — is to give a hand up, not a hand out. Barack should take a lesson from Nobel Peace Prize Winner Muhammad Yunus, for his successful work on microloans. But that wouldn’t allow stripping us of our guns, our sovereignty, and our parental rights the way S.2433 would do.

Yeah, I'm not seeing what you're seeing. Can we get your usual spin on this?
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:15PM
Comicracy at 6:55PM, April 16, 2008
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Look more into the international criminal court treaty. Its all a stepping stone to a one world government, coming soon to a theater near you.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:44AM
Kilre at 7:04PM, April 16, 2008
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Heaven forbid people are responsible for their actions, be they soldiers or national leaders.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:15PM
Comicracy at 7:12PM, April 16, 2008
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One World Government.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:44AM
Kilre at 7:19PM, April 16, 2008
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Comicracy
One World Government.

Is there room under that tin-foil hat for more? You're blowing this completely out of proportion.

But then, you've done that since you started posting, so I'm not surprised you'd jump so far and so high to such an exaggerated conclusion.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:15PM
Comicracy at 9:28PM, April 16, 2008
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Theres always room under my tin hat for you, just make sure to bring the anal implant microchip extracters.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:44AM
bobhhh at 10:22PM, April 16, 2008
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radarig
bobhhh
Working class folks should by any sense of reality should be storming the boardrooms and placing CEO's heads on pikes in the market square for offshoring their futures from their convenient offices in the Kaman Islands. But instead they fall for the worst kind of fear mongering from the right where the Democrats, the only party that even marginally gives a shit about them, are painted as soulless, godless commies who want to kill babies and burn the flag while chanting in French.

If being pissed about all those poor folks in red states who voted for dipshit twice against their own interests and mine makes me an elitist, the color me elitist.

To play devil's advocate here, I think there are two counterpoints to suggesting people should vote with their interests purely:

1) In the reverse argument, millionaire liberal democrats that support Obama or Clinton would be far better off voting their interests and siding with the guy who wants to make GWB's tax cuts permanent. These people are voting with their values rather than their interests, and the Democrats encourage it, but at the same time they express, as Obama was actually doing in the full context of the “bitter” comments, frustration that blue-collar americans vote values over interests.

2) Part of the problem is that Democrats are seen as patronizing BECAUSE they make this suggestion. It isn't really fair, because it's a legitimate point to make, but the fact that they are the party that has that burden allows the GOP to spin it as elitism, i.e. "the Democrats feel entitled to your vote, but we want you to vote with your heart." The GOP conversely doesn't need to bemoan (even though they do it in the context of negative spin on the Dems) deep-pocket support because it really only takes one rich person to fund a political action committee or something like that. All of that is done in the backrooms, at any rate; appealing to the masses is the Democrat's burden at this point in our culture, and that has to be done in the public.

EDIT: #2 is less a counterpoint and more a reason why making that kind of statement is just a bad idea. Anyway.

I never said the Democratic party was entitled to votes, I just said it was ludicrous to vote for the republicans who would seek to disenfranchise you.


And saying poor people need to vote for folks who will not make them poorer is not the same as assuming all rich people are selfish and soulless enough to be pro business at the expense of the working class.

That's like saying Black pride is the same as white supremacy. Youre talking about fairness where none exists. Therich and powerful have made things worse for the poor in the last 8 years, and i defy you to deny that.
My name is Bob and I approved this signature.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:30AM
Kohdok at 12:16AM, April 17, 2008
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Alrighty, let's see.

Someone
Those who favor Barack Obama because he is for �¢ï¿½ï¿½change�¢ï¿½ï¿½ should see an example of what kind of change he is in favor of before voting for him. For example, Senate Bill 2433, which was just sped on the fast-track through committee and is now up for a full Senate vote:

The legislation would commit the U.S. to spending 0.7 percent of gross national product on foreign aid, which amounts to a phenomenal 13-year total of $845 billion over and above what the U.S. already spends.

that's 845 billion, not trillion like you said. 845 billion is considerably smaller than 4 trillion, my friend.
In addition to seeking to eradicate poverty, that declaration commits nations to banning �¢ï¿½ï¿½small arms and light weapons�¢ï¿½ï¿½ and ratifying a series of treaties, including the International Criminal Court Treaty, the Kyoto Protocol (global warming treaty), the Convention on Biological Diversity, the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women, and the Convention on the Rights of the Child.

Those sound like worthy investments to me. Is this guy against stopping violence against women and children? They also said “Small-arms and light weapons” Shotguns and rifles would still be allowed under this, by the looks of it.

So, while giving speeches saying �¢ï¿½ï¿½It�¢ï¿½ï¿½s time to stop spending billions of dollars a week trying to put Iraq back together and start spending the money on putting America back together instead,�¢ï¿½ï¿½ he actually proposes legislation that would send billions of dollars overseas?

Billions a year to create peace treaties is different from billions a week to kill people. That, and billions are still less than trillions, no matter what anyone might try to tell you. Establishing good foreign policy again sounds like good America-rebuilding to me.

Barack also wants to spend $210 Billion on federal �¢ï¿½ï¿½green collar�¢ï¿½ï¿½ jobs, and fund it by taxing carbon emissions and cutting corporate tax breaks. At this rate, the United States will be poor and looking for help from other countries before long. Oh wait, we already are. But getting further into debt is okay?

Woah-woah-woah wait… since when did increasing taxes cause our national debt to go up? I thought lowering taxes did that. Besides, taxing carbon emissions would only really affect the people who use them most, i.e. petroleum-guzzling corporations, not your average joe.

I also took a look at the bill in question from a spot linked on the website. It looked to me like the bill was asking the President to state their plan for pursuing the millenium development goal. I don't see any of the stuff this guy rattles off as being in there. It even gets clever enough to show how our current administration has been boasting that they'd help.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:20PM

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