Debate and Discussion

Obama: Already America's great president ever?
Backstaber at 9:31PM, Feb. 11, 2009
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Quite a critical poem of Barack. Hmmm ….
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:15AM
Orin J Master at 7:36PM, Feb. 12, 2009
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geez, the US president's a black guy, so suddenly he has to make africa his top priority. for get about the job he's supposed to do, dangit, he's black! you can't be black if you're not putting africa first!

whoever wrote that's a friggin' jerk for trying to tie a second nation's woes around his neck.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:22PM
imshard at 7:41AM, Feb. 13, 2009
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Orin J Master
geez, the US president's a black guy, so suddenly he has to make africa his top priority. for get about the job he's supposed to do, dangit, he's black! you can't be black if you're not putting africa first!

whoever wrote that's a friggin' jerk for trying to tie a second nation's woes around his neck.

He's technically a first generation American. His father was a Kenyan government official. Just by being a family man, African issues concern him. Namely because the paternal side of his family all hold citizenship in African nations. It not just a racial assumption, its based on legitimate concerns.

Personally I don't see why its a problem. Africa has had a lot of problems for a long time and not gotten much more than lip service from the rest of the world in the way of help. I've been wanting African true intervention and assistance since Clinton was president.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 12:58PM
Hawk at 9:15AM, Feb. 13, 2009
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That's ridiculous. One of the things I liked most about Obama's platform is that he wanted to pull back America's influence on the world so we could fix our own problems. Helping out other countries is nice, but in a time where our economy is collapsing it's not our obligation to give handouts to outside countries just because our newly elected leader has roots overseas.

Doesn't it just seem wrong? We've had Obama as president for about a month, he's been fully occupied with an important problem, and somebody in another country's saying, "Why hasn't this deceitful Judas fixed our problems yet?" Sheer arrogance.

If we get America back on track I don't see a problem with helping Africa, what with their hunger, AIDS, and militants. But we'll be in a much better position to help when we're not all worried about losing our jobs.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:46PM
Hakoshen at 9:37AM, Feb. 13, 2009
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Hawk
Doesn't it just seem wrong? We've had Obama as president for about a month, he's been fully occupied with an important problem, and somebody in another country's saying, "Why hasn't this deceitful Judas fixed our problems yet?" Sheer arrogance.

If we get America back on track I don't see a problem with helping Africa, what with their hunger, AIDS, and militants. But we'll be in a much better position to help when we're not all worried about losing our jobs.

I wholeheartedly agree. It's one thing that America is trying to help so many other nations in the world, but right now we're stretching our hands out to the world while our core is crumbling.

This may be concieted of me, but if the American economy collapses, the rest of the world is coming down with us. By that, fixing our own issues should be our number one priority.

Lastly, this whole economic stimulous thing seems to be a failing gambit no matter how I look at it. What good is flooding the economy with money regardless of what angle you push it at if the value of said money is doing nothing but decreasing? What would happen if you gave everyone in the country $10,000? You basically just set the bar for poverty $10,000 higher. If every man is king, then no one can rule.

Admittely, politics and economics are not my forte, but how can we start thrusting so much blame onto one administration which is hardly months old for not fixing a problem nearly a decade in the making? I'll be the first to admit I haven't really given too much thought into how I think the economy could be fixed, but I don't think that handing out money is going to do it. I mean, does anyone even remember the last economic stimulus package?
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last edited on July 14, 2011 12:40PM
imshard at 10:41AM, Feb. 13, 2009
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We're not that bad off. When our country can afford to spend nearly a ~800 Billion dollars on “stimulus” packages and another TRILLION on its regular budget, then its not doing that bad. China: a country roughly our size, with a booming economy, and billions more inhabitants doesn't spend as much in total as we do on roads and education. scary eh? If we cut the pork, and pull the troops like Obama has promised the government would have a huge surplus of cash. Roughly 190 bil is spent on the “war on terror” alone and an estimated 80 bil can be trimmed out of failed civilian programs. Trust that funding will not be a problem in the US for a loooong time. We're weak not broken, The presidents plans are very promising and it won't take much to get us out of our slump. I'm saying that and I'm a pessimist.

At any rate you misunderstood my stance. I'm not saying we should go forth and flush our cash on Africa. Merely stated that Obama does in fact have an interest there, and there is nothing racially motivated in saying so. I'm a humanitarian, it is a place of great suffering. It needs some attention.

Neat link about our current budget
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last edited on July 14, 2011 12:58PM
Backstaber at 4:02PM, Feb. 14, 2009
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Only time will tell ….
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:15AM
Hakoshen at 4:53PM, Feb. 14, 2009
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Backstaber
Only time will tell ….

/second
God needed the Devil, the Beatles needed the Rolling Stones, Hakoshen needs me.
I'm the enemy he requires to define him.
Soon or later, he'll bring me back to life again for another epic encounter of shouting about power levels and grimacing.
-Harkovast
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:40PM
Xiam at 2:45PM, Feb. 15, 2009
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I'm just happy he's DOING things. I hope he doesn't take as many vacations as Bush did, but I think he'll do alright.

I refuse to expect too much of anyone in that situation. He's not Jesus, he's the President. There are no miracles in the Presidency.

I do, however, hope he continues to work for the people, rather than the Upper Crust. That's all I really expect of him.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:52PM
kyupol at 9:16AM, Feb. 23, 2009
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Bush and Obama are oppo-SAME

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5inrssFARYO4US7mMu27sqB9tc7WwD96FKURG0

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Obama_administration_trying_to_kill_Bush_0222.html
NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:26PM
imshard at 10:50AM, Feb. 23, 2009
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Is the honeymoon over already?

I would fully expect that Obama should maintain many positions at least in the short term. It would be reckless and destabilizing to effect to many change too quickly.

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last edited on July 14, 2011 12:58PM
Hawk at 11:38AM, Feb. 23, 2009
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imshard
Is the honeymoon over already?

It would appear that it's at least “over” enough for him to encounter opposition.

I'm entirely unsure what to think. He just announced that he's going to cut the national deficit in half during his first term in office. Is that possible?! I mean, even when we're not in economic turmoil… Either the national debt isn't as staggeringly insurmountable as I thought, or Obama's got an incredible plan. Or he's lying, but I don't know why he'd make a huge promise like that if he didn't think he could do it–especially since it's just that kind of promise that will haunt him when reelections come around.

Now more than ever I'm hoping for Obama's success. A halved national debt sounds wonderful.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:46PM
kyupol at 3:42PM, Feb. 24, 2009
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lol!

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last edited on July 14, 2011 1:26PM
StaceyMontgomery at 4:52PM, Feb. 24, 2009
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Comparing Obama to Hitler while saying “Grow up” is kind of like making fun of yourself.

Saved me the trouble.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:55PM
Senshuu at 10:29PM, Feb. 24, 2009
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imshard
Is the honeymoon over already?



why do people keep saying that
over and over

Anyway, here's to the power of optimism. We can't afford to be pessimistic.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:27PM
Hawk at 11:04PM, Feb. 24, 2009
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Kyupol, are you in the same universe as the rest of us? I get the impression that you don't soak in the current events from the usual newspapers and TV programs, but from some sort of separate party that twists and corrupts the information before handing it over to you… and I mean far more than any newspaper or TV program does.

I mean, the Obama poem and the comic strip are absolutely absurd. I know you don't live in America so you're not exactly getting the New York Times, but man, whoever gives you the news is giving you some distorted stuff.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:46PM
Polkster at 2:07AM, Feb. 25, 2009
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Obama's been in office a bit more than a month… he's got another 47 to go.

Lets not be swayed by the naive cult of personality that's formed around him and actually see what he does before calling him the greatest thing to happen to America since the Brits kicked out the free loadin' Puritans.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:47PM
bravo1102 at 7:38AM, Feb. 25, 2009
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Polkster
Obama's been in office a bit more than a month… he's got another 47 to go.

Lets not be swayed by the naive cult of personality that's formed around him and actually see what he does before calling him the greatest thing to happen to America since the Brits kicked out the free loadin' Puritans.

Seems to this Social Studies teacher that your vision of American history comes from a Biazzaro universe adjacent to kyupol's. But that really doesn't detract from the accuracy of the analogy. :)

So far he's talking a great talk. It's almost like the great rhetoric of Ronaldus Magnus (the Rush Limbaugh nickname for Ronald Reagan, which I find very funny) A lot of the stimulous package won't be spent until 2010-2012. Everything so far is premature and a lot of what has been said is way over-exaggerated.

It's like the Commie/Socialist terror that the Right spread about the New Deal. It ended up being rather ridiculous in hindsight, but then World War II was “Mr. Roosevelt's War” and we all know that the US government knew the Japanese were headed for Oahu in November 1941. Right kyupol? ;)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:33AM
Polkster at 9:16AM, Feb. 25, 2009
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Am I the only one who finds all of these college students wearing Obama “Hope” t-shirts, hanging up Obama “Hope” posters, and spouting Obama “Hope” rhetoric like gospel a little… uncomfortable? The whole cult of personality thing doesn't strike anyone else the wrong way, does it?
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:47PM
Hawk at 9:36AM, Feb. 25, 2009
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Polkster
Am I the only one who finds all of these college students wearing Obama “Hope” t-shirts, hanging up Obama “Hope” posters, and spouting Obama “Hope” rhetoric like gospel a little… uncomfortable? The whole cult of personality thing doesn't strike anyone else the wrong way, does it?

You're not the only one, that's why I started the thread.

We can certainly have hope (and I do) but government must still be scrutinized. And even a really good president can't solve all our problems off the bat. I think the praise and Obama T-shirts should come after the first term is over.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:46PM
imshard at 9:48AM, Feb. 25, 2009
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I do find it a bit unsettling. It seems … Obsessive, even unhealthy, mentally speaking. I like Mr. O, and many public figures have obsessive fans. He seems to have more sycophants than would be otherwise normal though.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 12:58PM
StaceyMontgomery at 9:49AM, Feb. 25, 2009
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I don't see the Cult of Personality thing.

I know lots of Obama supporters. They like Obama a lot - but they all seem to treat him as a real, flawed, human being. They complain about his outreach to Rick Warren and worry that he's too liberal or too moderate or whatever (depending on where they stand). I've met people who wear those Hope T-shirts, but they also seemed pretty reasonable in their views. And Hope is a good thing.

Perhaps the “Cult of personality” crowd would like to tell us how they thought of the Idolization of Bush, McCaine and Palin? In the last decade, I had several people tell me that George Bush was a “Christlike” figure - but honestly, I did not see the comparison.

So I don't see the problem with Obama. So far, I'd say he's promising. I disagree with him on lots of things, but he seems to talk to us like we're adults, and I appreciate that.

OK, so you saw some kids wearing “Hope” shirts. Scary!
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:55PM
imshard at 10:06AM, Feb. 25, 2009
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Really?
I live in a state that's so republican that the dirt turned red. Even so I never saw anything depicting Bush as godlike. In fact the only Bush mementos I can remember were either old standard campaign stickers or bush is evil and despicable placards.

Call it what you will, but Barrack Obama is getting celebrity adoration and attention normally reserved for movie stars at levels not seen in the white house since the Kennedy administration.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 12:58PM
Orin J Master at 10:30AM, Feb. 25, 2009
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eh. this always happens when someone replaces a total fuckup in a position of power. there's a lot of people projecting their need to everything to magicaly be ‘fixed’ onto him, sure, but he's still in the “figuring out what's able to be done from the position the last guy left him in” phase.

and the last guy didn't really leave him with a lot of flexability on anything.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:22PM
Hawk at 11:13AM, Feb. 25, 2009
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You know it's funny, I've never seen any adoration of Bush either, and I've only lived in fairly republican areas. However, I did miss the beginning of W's first time while I was in Japan and that would have been the time people would have worshipped him, having not royally screwed up yet.

I've seen cartoon characters like Stan Smith worship Bush, but that's more of a tool to make conservatives look ignorant than anything. We know Seth McFarlane's political viewpoints.

imshard
Call it what you will, but Barrack Obama is getting celebrity adoration and attention normally reserved for movie stars at levels not seen in the white house since the Kennedy administration.

CNN Headlines: “Are the Obamas the First Family of Fashion?”
“What dog will President-elect Obama choose for the White House? We talk to an expert for his opinion.”

There is no doubt the Obamas have achieved celebrity-like status. They even had to get on the media's case about stalking the Obama daughters during their first days of school. That hasn't happened since JFK. But it's not surprising, when you figure in multiple factors.

1. Like Orin said, following up a really bad president.
2. With our current economic state, it's natural to look toward Obama for salvation.
3. The whole race thing.
4. A breath of fresh air for Democrats, who have likely felt suppressed for a while now.

I'm sure we're letting a very vocal minority make the whole pro-Obama push look obsessive, but it's not like the media is helping at all.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:46PM
kyupol at 2:43PM, Feb. 25, 2009
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Exclusive: Lawyer says Guantanamo abuse worse since Obama

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE51O3TB20090225?sp=true

Abuses began to pick up in December after Obama was elected, human rights lawyer Ahmed Ghappour told Reuters. He cited beatings, the dislocation of limbs, spraying of pepper spray into closed cells, applying pepper spray to toilet paper and over-forcefeeding detainees who are on hunger strike.


NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:26PM
kyupol at 2:55PM, Feb. 25, 2009
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Obama to Announce Iraq Withdrawals to be Completed in 19 Months

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/first100days/2009/02/24/obama-announce-iraq-withdrawals-completed-months/

Sounds good?

But here's the catch.

leaving a large contingent of troops behind, between 30,000 and 50,000 troops, to advise and train Iraqi security forces and to protect U.S. interests.

NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:26PM
Polkster at 1:45AM, Feb. 26, 2009
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kyupol
Obama to Announce Iraq Withdrawals to be Completed in 19 Months

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/first100days/2009/02/24/obama-announce-iraq-withdrawals-completed-months/

Sounds good?

But here's the catch.

leaving a large contingent of troops behind, between 30,000 and 50,000 troops, to advise and train Iraqi security forces and to protect U.S. interests.



How is that a catch? You'd rather just leave entirely, leaving the fragile Iraqi state to be overthrown by whatever Iranian-funded guerrilla coup strolls past the border?
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:47PM
bravo1102 at 3:14AM, Feb. 26, 2009
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30-50,000 troops is still a large number for the US armed forces considering our “force multipliers” Most will probably be support troops for our commitment to Afganistan since the former Soviet Republics may be kicking us out of our bases there. We need someplace to stage deployments. *cough* Iran *cough*

As for Gitmo, considering I know some people who served there, I don't blame them one bit. The detainees aren't pure as the driven snow, little angels, sitting meekly in their cells. Someone throws feces and urine at me and then spew curses for hours at end, I might be tempted to stop turning the other cheek. According to my old gunner who was a prison guard before deploying to Gitmo, the detainees are treated better than most prisoners in the US. But then why believe the guards when the lawyers for the criminals say what they say.

It's like only believing the defence attorney and never listening to the arresting officer, the prosecuter or looking at the resistance offered by the miscreant in detention. Good behavior counts for something when incarcerated. Nah. The prisoner and his mouthpeice have no reason to trumpet and exaggerate their ill-treament. :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:33AM
Polkster at 3:43AM, Feb. 26, 2009
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Wait what? How'd I initiate a Gitmo rant?

30-50,000 is a large number for the US armed forces but you have to realize how ineffective our military is outside of full blown combat situations. In maintaining the peace in Iraq and Afghanistan, those sorts of peripheral operations, larger troop numbers become almost necessary as a means of offsetting the military's lack of ruthlessness. I'm not saying they ought to kill without discretion or anything of the sort, it's just a fact–it took how many soldiers of the French Foreign Legion to subdue unrest on the Ivory Coast? 400? How many UN blue hats did it take to do absolutely nothing in Yugoslavia? A few thousand? It's all mandate mandate mandate.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:47PM

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