Debate and Discussion

On Debate and Discussion
Tantz Aerine at 7:50AM, Nov. 2, 2007
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I am really interested in seeing what you have to say on the matter. We all come (on occasion, or more often ;) ) to layout our views on several issues, and cross swords, so to speak, with those who think differently.

But why?

I mean, why do you do it? Do you ever come into Debate and Discussion thinking there may be a chance you will be convinced? Do you come into Debate and Discussion thinking you will come away having convinced others? Is it a race, who will win over whom, or a true comparison of viewpoints so that the most valid/ well rounded one will end up being the most accepted or considered one? Do you care more about whether you win the argument or whether what the discussion ends up with is the truth or not? (assuming there is a truth to reach, or at least a sincere outcome).

Anyway… discuss ;)
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:07PM
mlai at 9:26AM, Nov. 2, 2007
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When talking points (for GW, for Iraq, whatever) which have been debunked ages ago are used by those ignorant of the debunking, it's a citizen's responsibility to point them out.

If facts, not corroborating fiction, is what one is looking for, then the talking points will be discarded.

FIGHT current chapter: Filling In The Gaps
FIGHT_2 current chapter: Light Years of Gold
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:06PM
StaceyMontgomery at 9:33AM, Nov. 2, 2007
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I enjoy debate and discussion because it's important to test your own beliefs. Debating forces you to put your ideas to the test. A good debate is crucible where we burn away the lies and irrelevancies and foolishness and try to discover the truth.

Of course, the opposite approach is often helpful - it's often a good idea to switch and argue “the other side” for a bit, it's a good way to really test yourself. I should do that more, really.

Do I totally change my views because of debates? Not all at once. no. I'm too stubborn and proud for that, alas. But I change my views on all sorts of things over the years, and debating with people who are smarter than I am is an important part of that process.

I have often, in the thick of a debate, thought “Hey, i can argue your side much better than you can!” - which means it's time to stop and make sure you don't actually agree with them!

There is a danger though - I think you can have too much fun with debate, and that can actually calcify your opinions. That is, you can lose your sense of humility. I think we all have things we should debate, and things we can't really be open-minded enough to debate - but it can be hard to know which is which!
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:55PM
bobhhh at 9:40AM, Nov. 2, 2007
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mlai
When talking points (for GW, for Iraq, whatever) which have been debunked ages ago are used by those ignorant of the debunking, it's a citizen's responsibility to point them out.

If facts, not corroborating fiction, is what one is looking for, then the talking points will be discarded.

I believe in Socratic dialog. I have very deeply held convictions, but I am also open to new ideas. Also I believe it's instuctive to understand opposing viewpoints. Mutual understanding is the first step to consensus and the enemy of misunderstanding and mutual demonization.

I like to think that no moatter how hard and vehementally we disagree, fundamentally we are alike in many more ways that matter than we are different. Discussion and sharing of ideas and mutual respect helps keep us bretheren instead of enemies.
My name is Bob and I approved this signature.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:29AM
ozoneocean at 10:32AM, Nov. 2, 2007
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Debate and Discussion is a really horrible, awful, nasty place to go if you just want a fight. That F**ks up the place for everyone and isn't pleasant. I provoke people into that on occasion and hate myself for it. I also hate myself for joining those or continuing them. I'm a moron and an idiot for doing that.

What I like in this forum is honing and refining my own ideas by being forced to put them forward in a way that'll be easily understood. I also welcome refinements caused by taking on other's clever views on things… I'm VERY unlikely to completely change my views when someone is simply disagreeing with me are arguing the opposite, I don't think ANYONE would change their views because of that. But when a person takes time to present some carefully worded, cleverly thought out reasons why certain ideas and notions should be changed or altered, then I really do enjoy and welcome the chance to modify my own beliefs based on those :)

So, best things about Debate and Discussion: refining your own views and finding new ways of presenting them and even thinking about them based on the ideas that others put forward; and modifying your own views by taking on board the clever and innovative ideas of others.

What I DON'T like it approaching any notion two dimensionally: yes, or no; right or wrong; black or white; good or bad; my enemy or my friend; I love to think around things in circles and from unusual angles… or rather than answering a question, often it's MUCH more interesting and enlightening to wonder why anyone would ask those sorts of questions to begin with.

And you should always be careful about accepted notions or definitions of any kind: they can all contain ignorance, complacency, extremely limited points of view, or very out-dated thinking.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:28PM
TnTComic at 10:37AM, Nov. 2, 2007
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I go into debate forums as a way to refine my own arguments, but i'll be honest, Ozone convinced me to stay away from here. Sorry, but debate forums can't work when mods/admins chastise you for something in one instance, and then do the same thing to you. Doesn't work. Hawk doesn't do this, but he's complicit in it, in that he doesn't seem to care about keeping things even. Hence my absence from here of late. I know, good riddance, blah blah blah. But seriously, if I wanted to debate on a forum with hypocritical modding, I'd go to the Ctrl+alt+Del boards.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:31PM
Priest_Revan at 10:47AM, Nov. 2, 2007
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I come here because it's a great place to just state my views on… anything. Usually, I don't post here too much ‘cause there’s not much to argue about. I mean… ‘yall argue about things that can’t be proven or some silly shit like that. It's not my thing.
Updates Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday's (depends).

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Offering Project Wonderful Ad space on my website.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:48PM
Kilre at 10:50AM, Nov. 2, 2007
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I love arguments and debates. Almost like I love chocolate milk.

And I love reading well-thought-out responses in the hopes that some of that knowledge will rub off on me. I'd rather not join in much, though, because I know I'm rather close minded when I knee-jerk-reaction-reply most of the time.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:15PM
mlai at 11:08AM, Nov. 2, 2007
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TnTComic
I go into debate forums as a way to refine my own arguments, but i'll be honest, Ozone convinced me to stay away from here.
How does being a Mod come into this when he's not deleting posts or locking threads?

FIGHT current chapter: Filling In The Gaps
FIGHT_2 current chapter: Light Years of Gold
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:06PM
TnTComic at 11:09AM, Nov. 2, 2007
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mlai
TnTComic
I go into debate forums as a way to refine my own arguments, but i'll be honest, Ozone convinced me to stay away from here.
How does being a Mod come into this when he's not deleting posts or locking threads?

When you get PM's, warns, and are told in posts to behave, but the person doing the warning engages in the same behavior.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:31PM
Tantz Aerine at 1:06PM, Nov. 2, 2007
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I think that the Debate behavior is very educational. At least in showing to those interested the way someone's logic/reasoning works. Also, quite possibly, the level of gullibility- whatever that may be defined as. Some people are charmed by certain ideas more than others and are likely to adhere to them or argue about them in ways that imply that sort of thing.

I don't usually get into the arguments unless I have specific motivation to do it (such as seeing what the response will be to an argument, or trying to put some balance when the scales tip over too much over towards a view I do not agree with or feel should be reconsidered, at least a little). I do watch though, and it is very educational- and amusing, on occasion ;)
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:07PM
Vindibudd at 4:05PM, Nov. 2, 2007
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I come here because it is not boring. Though I think it politically hurts how people view my comics on this site.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:42PM
kyupol at 6:11PM, Nov. 2, 2007
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I am here because… I still have an urge to speak out my disagreement on things I do not agree with. I used to hangout in other debate forums and shit really hits the fan over there.

In drunkduck though, I noticed that the people who state their views… usually have views that coincide with the majority of the population. Because if not, it can affect your comic readership like what vindibudd already said.

Among such views that do not coincide with mainstream society are:

- pro-religion (doesnt matter if you wanna debate about Christianity, Islam, Judaism, satanism… you know the type who keeps quoting the “bible”)

- pro-communism/fascism/ku klux klan/black panther(unpopular ideologies)

- pro-bush (unpopular president)

- pro-life (again… unpopular)

- uber-conspiracy theorists (new world order… blablabla… illuminati…). That shit gets you laughed at if you talk about it out loud.

- pro-male/heterosexual (unpopular gender/sexual orientation)

I know these people are out there… they just dont wanna post in this forum section.

NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:25PM
CharleyHorse at 6:19PM, Nov. 2, 2007
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Before I engage in one of these discussions I always look over the contributions of others for the very reason that sometimes I learn something new or get exposure to a different and acceptable way of looking at things.

I respond, however, because I am a compulsive writer and because it helps me to refine my own thoughts on a subject to place them before others.

Of course I tend to do too much of this as opposed to actually doing the cartooning that I became a member of DD to do. With that in mind, I'm going to back off on the forum interactions a bit and see if I can actually get some cartooning done.

There, I just accepted a new notion. This stuff is healthy!
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:40AM
bobhhh at 6:35PM, Nov. 2, 2007
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kyupol
I am here because… I still have an urge to speak out my disagreement on things I do not agree with. I used to hangout in other debate forums and shit really hits the fan over there.

I'm glad you do, debating sucks if no one has a contrary opinion.

kyupol
In drunkduck though, I noticed that the people who state their views… usually have views that coincide with the majority of the population. Because if not, it can affect your comic readership like what vindibudd already said.

Among such views that do not coincide with mainstream society are:

- pro-religion (doesnt matter if you wanna debate about Christianity, Islam, Judaism, satanism… you know the type who keeps quoting the “bible”)

- pro-communism/fascism/ku klux klan/black panther(unpopular ideologies)

- pro-bush (unpopular president)

- pro-life (again… unpopular)

- uber-conspiracy theorists (new world order… blablabla… illuminati…). That shit gets you laughed at if you talk about it out loud.

- pro-male/heterosexual (unpopular gender/sexual orientation)

I know these people are out there… they just dont wanna post in this forum section.



You know it is possible that people just reject some of those opinions because its how they feel, not out of fear. The converse might also be true, the reason these frightened people you lament over don't post is that they don't exist in the numbers you assume they do.

I have no comic to push, and I also have no fear of defending or clarifying my opinions, even if they were what you would portray as unpopular ones.
My name is Bob and I approved this signature.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:29AM
ozoneocean at 10:33PM, Nov. 2, 2007
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TnTComic
When you get PM's, warns, and are told in posts to behave, but the person doing the warning engages in the same behavior.
You were PQed and warned by me a couple of months ago now for telling people to “fuck” themselves and things like that. I haven't warned you about anything ever since, so you're spinning a sympathy story here and being a baby. You've posted HEAPS since then, and the only PQs I've sent you in the last 4 weeks or so are nice ones in response to your PQs asking me to argue with you and calling me a “fucking asshole” and “an idiot”. I sent light hearted friendly ones back so you'd quit… lol!

–that was just to dispel some nasty propaganda about me personally. If it results in another argument I'm not going to be a part of it.——– ;)

________________________________________________________

Anyway, it's good to see a lot of people think like I do, and like to refine and hone their ideas :)
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:28PM
kyupol at 3:52AM, Nov. 3, 2007
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You know it is possible that people just reject some of those opinions because its how they feel, not out of fear. The converse might also be true, the reason these frightened people you lament over don't post is that they don't exist in the numbers you assume they do.

You're not the first one who said this. I have a friend who was SHOCKED when he realized that Nazism and Communism are very much alive. He lived in friendly Canada all these years and was constantly bombarded with Canada's propaganda of tolerance and diversity.


- pro-religion
http://www.catholic-forum.com/
http://forums.muslimvillage.net/


- pro-communism/fascism
Communism is alive and well
http://www.communist-party.ca/
http://www.korea-dpr.com/cgi-bin/simpleforum.cgi
http://songun-blog.blogspot.com/

Fascism and Nazism is alive and well
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/
http://www.americannaziparty.com/
http://www.nazi.org/


- pro-bush
http://www.probush.com/

- pro-life
http://www.prolife.com/


- The Conspiracy
http://www.rense.com/
http://infowars.com/
http://prisonplanet.com/

- pro-male/heterosexual
http://mensrightsblogs.com/feeds/



Most of the adherents to these things find themselves ridiculed in more mainstream forums such as this one.

(*Author's note: Just because I posted links doesnt mean anything about agreement or being against it*) :)
NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:25PM
bobhhh at 9:01AM, Nov. 3, 2007
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kyupol
You know it is possible that people just reject some of those opinions because its how they feel, not out of fear. The converse might also be true, the reason these frightened people you lament over don't post is that they don't exist in the numbers you assume they do.

You're not the first one who said this. I have a friend who was SHOCKED when he realized that Nazism and Communism are very much alive. He lived in friendly Canada all these years and was constantly bombarded with Canada's propaganda of tolerance and diversity.


- pro-religion
http://www.catholic-forum.com/
http://forums.muslimvillage.net/


- pro-communism/fascism
Communism is alive and well
http://www.communist-party.ca/
http://www.korea-dpr.com/cgi-bin/simpleforum.cgi
http://songun-blog.blogspot.com/

Fascism and Nazism is alive and well
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/
http://www.americannaziparty.com/
http://www.nazi.org/


- pro-bush
http://www.probush.com/

- pro-life
http://www.prolife.com/


- The Conspiracy
http://www.rense.com/
http://infowars.com/
http://prisonplanet.com/

- pro-male/heterosexual
http://mensrightsblogs.com/feeds/



Most of the adherents to these things find themselves ridiculed in more mainstream forums such as this one.

(*Author's note: Just because I posted links doesnt mean anything about agreement or being against it*) :)

The fact that crack pots are voiceferous doesn't mean they are numerous. A demostration of 500, 000 people is still a fraction of a percent of the total population of the us. These people are not representative of the mainstream, and I think definitely not representative of common folks here at DD.

So even though a small vocal minority can make a big stink, it still doesn't mean there is a vast silent majority who avoid posting here for fear of being branded as uncool.
My name is Bob and I approved this signature.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:29AM
bobhhh at 9:07AM, Nov. 3, 2007
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ozoneocean
TnTComic
When you get PM's, warns, and are told in posts to behave, but the person doing the warning engages in the same behavior.
You were PQed and warned by me a couple of months ago now for telling people to “fuck” themselves and things like that. I haven't warned you about anything ever since, so you're spinning a sympathy story here and being a baby. You've posted HEAPS since then, and the only PQs I've sent you in the last 4 weeks or so are nice ones in response to your PQs asking me to argue with you and calling me a “fucking asshole” and “an idiot”. I sent light hearted friendly ones back so you'd quit… lol!

–that was just to dispel some nasty propaganda about me personally. If it results in another argument I'm not going to be a part of it.——– ;)

________________________________________________________

Anyway, it's good to see a lot of people think like I do, and like to refine and hone their ideas :)

Ozo will tell you that I am not afraid to cross swords with anyone, and I have recieved warnigs as well, but I cannot ever say I have felt compelled to hold my tongue becuase I have been bullied by the mods. I would have to have my mouth sewn shut for that to happen.

Sorry kiddo, but just sounds like whining to me. Why not just get over it and continue to do what you do best and make reasoned arguments, many of which I agree with, but most all I find entertaining.
My name is Bob and I approved this signature.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:29AM
Vindibudd at 10:33AM, Nov. 3, 2007
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kyupol
- pro-life
http://www.prolife.com/

Most of the adherents to these things find themselves ridiculed in more mainstream forums such as this one.


This is not a fringe opinion.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:42PM
Hawk at 10:53AM, Nov. 4, 2007
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I'll tell you honestly, I don't like debating. It's my duties as a mod that keep me coming back here.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:46PM
bobhhh at 1:24PM, Nov. 4, 2007
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Hawk
I'll tell you honestly, I don't like debating. It's my duties as a mod that keep me coming back here.

That's too bad because you seem level headed, and that we need more of.
My name is Bob and I approved this signature.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:29AM
Poke Alster at 11:01AM, Nov. 9, 2007
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we go on to share our views and see other peoples views full stop
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:46PM
bobhhh at 8:33PM, Nov. 9, 2007
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TheMidge28
I find that true debate and discussion should have a goal.
That is not to win.
I believe it necessary to find and establish truth.
Not personal subjective truth.
Truth.

I have a goal. To come to a consensus whenever possible. To share ideas. That's waht debate is about. Opposing viewpoints making their case. I don't see what your beef is. Perhaps you're mad because everybody doesn't see things your way.


TheMidge28
I find most of the topics in my opinion of course to be quite silly to be debated.
Plus I find that some who debate and discuss here to be quite rude and assumptive.

Does anybody else find this assumption as rife with irony as I do?
My name is Bob and I approved this signature.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:29AM
Aurora Moon at 9:08PM, Nov. 9, 2007
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I would have to agree with bobhhh.

Truth is so subjective, even “The one absolute truth” idea that humans seem so fond of.

And WHAT is the “Absolute truth” for, anyway?
Is it for Religion? Even though some humans would rather remain ignorant if it meant that they would be happy, in believing that they're superior above others in that they get to go to heaven while others don't. just because the others don't believe in the same things that they do? That smug satisfaction of: “I'm right and you're wrong, so I go to heaven while you don't!”

Is it for the meaning of life? Although some people believe procreating to simply be the meaning of life, while others think it's to better ourselves in a lot of ways. Some think the meaning of life lies in a place far away in outer space. some think it can be found on our planet. Some thinks it can be found in the supernatural, or in religion. Some think it can be found in science. So which group of people are right, and holds the absolute truth of “the meaning of life”? Or is it possible that all of those paths leads down to the same place and that no group holds “The truth”?

And most importantly, can “the truth” be ever applied to ANYTHING? What if it ends up to not be the kind of truth you wanted at all.
For instance… What if the Absolute truth is that “God” Turned out to be more of a neutral entity and that humans never really had a “special place” like humans were so arrogant to think? I'd bet you that so many humans would rather remain ignorant than to feel like that they were treated just like any other living animals in the universe–not special and subject to suffering if they were not strong enough.

No, I'd rather that Debating and discussions be used to help humans better understand themselves and other differing viewpoints. For humans to learn and realize that differing opinions and viewpoints so different than their own isn't always wrong or bad.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:10AM
bobhhh at 12:09AM, Nov. 10, 2007
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TheMidge28
bobhhh
TheMidge28
I find that true debate and discussion should have a goal.
That is not to win.
I believe it necessary to find and establish truth.
Not personal subjective truth.
Truth.

I have a goal. To come to a consensus whenever possible. To share ideas. That's waht debate is about. Opposing viewpoints making their case. I don't see what your beef is. Perhaps you're mad because everybody doesn't see things your way.


TheMidge28
I find most of the topics in my opinion of course to be quite silly to be debated.
Plus I find that some who debate and discuss here to be quite rude and assumptive.

Does anybody else find this assumption as rife with irony as I do?

Thank you.
You have proven my point.
Your response is exactly the attitude why some people choose not to post here and doesn't really take into account what I was wholey expressing…i.e rude and assumptive.
I never stated I had “a beef” with people debating nor am I mad.
I was communicating why I chose not to post and desired to see more discussion to an end which actually does something, in my opinion.


Opinions by the way are assumptions.


Jeez midge, you sound pretty mad to me. Anyway, my point which you so neatly danced around is that you seem to have a problem with debate because 1) what's the point. debating accomplishes nothing. and 2) People are rude and assumptive.

to point 1 I say discussion always is worth it. You seem to think everyone is stubborn and no one is open to new ideas. While that may be true of some, i feel it's not true of the majority here or elsewhere. I know i have conceeded points here in the past, and further i feel discusssion at least informs people of opposing views the nature and the context of their disagreements.

to point 2 I feel that assumptions are part of arguments. you have to start somewhere. If you disagree with an assumption, you only have to give voice to your contrary assumption. You decry the combative nature of debate, but defending your opinion is the best way to become passionate about your beliefs, and if you can't properly defend your assertions, then perhaps you can absorb new ideas. As for winning or losing, I don't ever remember people declaring winners and losers around here. The only victory I can see is the free exchange of ideas.
My name is Bob and I approved this signature.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:29AM
DAJB at 5:51AM, Nov. 10, 2007
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I come here to see what other people think. Whether I agree with their points of view or not, other people are interesting.

If I happen to agree or disagree with a particular point of view, I'll add my two-penn'orth but once a debate starts to go round in circles, repeating the same arguments, I usually leave and look for other threads. Not only does it become boring at that point but it's usually a good indication that you've come up against someone who feels their opinion is the only right one and that it's their duty to convince everyone else. Those people can really spoil an otherwise interesting discussion.

In my experience, debates and discussions (whether in a forum like this or in “real life” ) very seldom change anybody's views, so there's no point in continuing to add to a debate which is (or is in danger of becoming) over-heated.

It's always best to leave the party once the food-fight starts!
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:03PM
bobhhh at 10:05AM, Nov. 10, 2007
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TheMidge28
bobhhh
Jeez midge, you sound pretty mad to me. Anyway, my point which you so neatly danced around is that you seem to have a problem with debate because 1) what's the point. debating accomplishes nothing. and 2) People are rude and assumptive.

to point 1 I say discussion always is worth it. You seem to think everyone is stubborn and no one is open to new ideas. While that may be true of some, i feel it's not true of the majority here or elsewhere. I know i have conceded points here in the past, and further i feel discussion at least informs people of opposing views the nature and the context of their disagreements.

to point 2 I feel that assumptions are part of arguments. you have to start somewhere. If you disagree with an assumption, you only have to give voice to your contrary assumption. You decry the combative nature of debate, but defending your opinion is the best way to become passionate about your beliefs, and if you can't properly defend your assertions, then perhaps you can absorb new ideas. As for winning or losing, I don't ever remember people declaring winners and losers around here. The only victory I can see is the free exchange of ideas.

again you misconstrued my post.
Did you read the entire first post?
Your sketch of my points are so off its hilarious.
I never stated I have a problem with debate.
I never stated or implied “debating accomplishes nothing”.
and I never stated "People[by your use implying all] are rude and assumptive"

bobhhh, you have a way of taking some one's post and creating huge sweeping generalizations from them which never were implied or stated. I read these threads and you do this on a regular basis. How do you change some to everyone is beyond me.

First debating is a good thing as to understand what one believes and to understand those of others and to the goal of finding out what is true . Also, if you read what I stated, I said some people are rude and assumptive and then addressed you in particular as being one those who is “rude and assumptive” in my response to your “rebuttal”.

Honestly, read my post. Your points have no bearing as to what was being addressed.
To recap what my original post stated:
Debating is fine.
What we debate at times seems silly and there are more important topics which need hammered out.
We need more discussion so we can actually find solutions to important issues which are effecting our world.

Understand my post was not supposed to be debated, but rather interjecting into the discussion. Take it or leave it.



First of all, you post something in a debate forum and you don't expect someone to debate it? that just doesn't make sense.

Second of all, and really this is my last spar with you if you are going to complain every time I respond, you stated you don't like to post here and you think others don't as well ostensibly because of people like me. Plus I find that some who debate and discuss here to be quite rude and assumptive" you said. You DID say that didn't you?

Forgive my semantics,I guess I should have said you don't like debating here. With that correction, I stand by my previous argument. Further I believe your restatement of my argument and revision of your own does constitute a defense of your earlier post. You said debate should have a goal other than exchange of ideas, I believe exchange of ideas is a worthy enough goal. I didn't misunderstand you, you just didn't like my response.

Finally you decry me as rude, and yet I don't claim your arguments are “hilarious”, I just plain disagree. Who's the rude one here?
My name is Bob and I approved this signature.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:29AM
bobhhh at 10:08AM, Nov. 10, 2007
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DAJB
It's always best to leave the party once the food-fight starts!

Most of the time you are correct, but sometimes an issue is important enough to defend it passionately. I will hasten to add this topic isn't one of them. :)
My name is Bob and I approved this signature.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:29AM
TheMidge28 at 11:11AM, Nov. 10, 2007
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posts: 6,847
joined: 7-5-2007
@ bobhhh, I think you thrive on debating people.
You like being right.
You're right.
I was being rude by calling your sketches of my points to be hilarious.
You're right.
I shouldn't defend my post or even have posted what I posted in the first place.
You know what I'll just go ahead and delete the post.
I thought it would encourage discussion which was lacking in the Debate and Discussion thread.
But I was wrong.
Thank you bobhhh for pointing out how ignorant I am and rude I can be.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:22PM

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