Debate and Discussion

Online dating. Next generation relationship or self delution?
Product Placement at 7:38AM, Aug. 16, 2010
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We've all seen the cliché. Boy meets girl… online. Boy likes girl… online. Girl online turns out to be a 300 pound truck driver from Missouri. I mean we've all heard the slogan “Welcome to the Internet, where men are men, women are men and everyone under 13 is a FBI agent” so it's no wonder that we're all a bit cynical about the prospect of getting it on with someone via the cyberspace. Here's a perfect example of such cynicism.





Now, regardless of my previous feelings about this idea, I recently had an experience where I connected with someone online which made me contemplate the implications of Internet romance. So I started digging around.

The easiest place to find stuff like this is to look up online dating sites, where people flock together for exactly this kind of thing. One of those sites was designed specifically for my local area and has continuously existed for over 10 years now. Not surprisingly it has a reputation of being a gathering place of 50+ year old men, who like to harass 18 year old girls who just signed up on the site, causing them to give up on the place and leave. As a result the place is a mayor sausage fest. It was quite amusing to look up the profiles of a man who had been on the site for 4 years, with his measly 100 profile views, compared with the girls who've maybe been on the site for 2 days and already have more then 5000 profile views. I also couldn't help noticing that most of self description included texts like “Please! No messages from old guys, asking if they can fuck me.” I've also heard that there are allot of cases, where men create female profiles, just to mess with the other men. I can tell it's not exactly the buyers market for the male population ^^'

So what about places where online dating is not the agenda. Places like MMO-games similar to World of Warcraft and forum communities like Drunk Duck? Do people bump into each other and have cyberflings akin to the one's we see in the grocery isles in the movies? Apparently it's more common than I thought and arguably safer. In forum communities and online multiplayer games, people are less likely to create bogus profiles about themselves, since they're joining these communities to discuss their likes and interests or playing the games to have fun. They didn't join with the purpose of hooking up with someone so the environment that online dating sites create which attracts the weirdos and more malicious people is not present.

I was watching a documentary about online relationships which focuses around a multiplayer life simulator/game called “Second life”. For those who haven't heard of it, it's kinda like “The Sims” on steroids. You create an avatar of yourself and roam around a user generated environment and that's pretty much the gist of it. Anyways, the documentary follows two couples who met online and fell in love with each other. One of the couples is a married woman with 4 kids from America and a single guy from Britain while the other is a couple who ended up living together and even got married in the game. In the end though, the happy couple gets overshadowed by the cautionary tale related to the affair that the married woman is having. Anyways, for those who are interested, you can check out the documentary over here.

In a world that is increasingly becoming more and more connected, encounters like these are probably only going to become more frequent. The biggest problem I see in that is that while the great web can overcome great distances, its shortcomings become quite apparent, once you start craving the closeness that only physical contact can provide. So what happens when you think you've found your solemate, when he or she happens to be living in India? I happened to find this site that asks allot of important questions to those who find themselves in situations like those.

Anyways, to cut an already long post short while not reaching a particular conclusion about the topic, I ask you fine folks about your opinion about the matter.
Those were my two cents.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 2:53PM
ozoneocean at 8:54AM, Aug. 16, 2010
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Well I personally know of and have indeed forgotten many relationships that have started through DD and gone on and some that haven't. It's not rare.
Wherever people with similar interests communicate and share ideas there will be personal relationships.

I'd say it's “no different from anywhere else”, but that's not true since everywhere is different. As you say, the people who you communicate with on a site like this share similar interests as well as having something at stake here in the form of their work, so it's not like a dating site, or a local pub, or bar or even a party. This would be more akin to a workplace situation almost I suppose? Or a club or something… depending on the person's commitment and involvement.

But looking at it in terms of “romance” is a bit limited. People from real enduring friendships through places like this- and not that crap about “online friends” either, actual friends. I have seen it. :)

All that distance stuff isn't really new is it? In fact it's less of an issue than it's ever been. Travel is easy and communication methods are a lot faster and more versatile than they've ever been before. In times past people having distance relationships were separated by time as well! Weeks or months and even YEARS for some, depending on the speed of the mail. Then phones made it a bit easier… and so on. That's not new and it's certainly never been uncommon!
The stories about the person on the other end being different (a man, Married, an alien from Mars or whatever) are crap. I'm positive that happens, but I'm also pretty sure it's more something that people fear than actually happens regularly, as well as making a good story both in fiction and for TV shows. ;)
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:36PM
isukun at 10:10AM, Aug. 16, 2010
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Differences in people on the other side aren't just limited to the wackos, though. In one of my previous jobs, I knew a woman who had been through three marriages, all of them online romances. She kept running into the problem that she didn't really know the person when she rushed into the relationship and would end up having to get a divorce. That sort of thing isn't all that uncommon, either. People have a tendency to jump into relationships far too quickly these days, without really exploring who the other person is. Sure, at times you have to take a chance, but who you marry should never be a guesstimate.

Even if their profiles are correct, how much can you really learn about a person from their profiles? Maybe some shows they like or hobbies, where they live, what age they are, a picture if they have one? That doesn't really tell you who they are. The only way to really get a feel for someone is to talk to them, and unfortunately, the internet more often than not changes how we act and handle ourselves. You can log hundreds of hours over a year or more in chat time with someone and still not know them. That's precisely the problem the woman I knew ran into.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:05PM
Product Placement at 11:30AM, Aug. 16, 2010
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isukun
The only way to really get a feel for someone is to talk to them, and unfortunately, the internet more often than not changes how we act and handle ourselves. You can log hundreds of hours over a year or more in chat time with someone and still not know them.
Actually, that documentary I mentioned does kinda address that point. The women having that online affair, ended up visiting her internet lover. Both their avatars were extreme versions of their personalities and when they finally met in real life, they didn't click at all. Also, it was a pretty sad example of how a marriage can degenerate.
Those were my two cents.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 2:53PM
blindsk at 12:31PM, Aug. 16, 2010
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So I can personally address your comparison to a game like World of Warcraft. I'll come out and say that I've racked hours in that game for five, long years.

I actually laughed out loud through almost your entire post, PP, after seeing nearly identical parallels in WoW with your online dating site example. There's a reason why some people that play this game often joke about how it's turned into $15/mo dating service.

I've seen plenty of examples of dating within this game from the two star-crossed lovers always questing together - eventually flying out to see each other resulting in marriage - to the completely mismatched old guy and underage girl getting close and then getting awkward once they spoke with each other over online voice communication (which has essentially become a large part of the game). About a year ago, a popular guild on our server disbanded because the husband and wife team leading it ended up divorcing…want to know why? She allegedly developed a relationship with another guild member who happened to be a more successful businessman (than her previous husband) and decided to run away and get hitched with him.

As far as people abusing sex type? It's no mystery that the ladies have a much easier time getting the handouts in WoW. Even they'll admit to that. So often times when a guy decides to level up a new character, they'll choose female and generally act like one while they can maintain obscurity in gender (once they hit peak level, they'll have to come forward with hilarious results). So this is sort of the equivalent to your example of guys messing with other guys.

I can't believe I'm doing this, but if I were to compare WoW to other online dating sites, I'd say this game is much more effective in bringing people close together. Similar to what ozone mentioned, these people are spending time together with something they both enjoy - so already there is a common interest. Now add the fact that they spend hours together, sometimes just the two of them, helping each other out and conquering challenges together, then you've already got some of the key ingredients to a relationship.

I guess the only issue would be for some people, is that you're never going to get instant gratification by trying to “sell” yourself much like you would on the typical online dating site. The relationships that actually go through in WoW often take a year or even longer of that constant connection. But most people don't realize that. They think more along the lines of this which satirizes the situation quite well.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:25AM
Hawk at 2:25PM, Aug. 16, 2010
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I actually know a few married couples who met in WoW, and my cousin met her husband through an online dating service. So I know that there can be some success stories. However, I feel like successful online relations coming to fruition offline is probably still the minority. I don't have anything to back that up, but I know that there is so much potential to lie about yourself online that it makes the whole thing difficult.

Still, as people spend more and more time online, it just continues to make sense for there to be online dating. People have to meet people, and the tried-and-true method has usually been going some place you like to be, because you'll maybe meet somebody who also likes to be there, and viola, there's at least one common interest.

I think the internet should count as a “place”… but easily the most ambiguous and dangerous of all places. It's like going to a park to meet people, but EVERYONE is wearing a giant cardboard box that conceals their identity entirely.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:47PM
kyupol at 7:24PM, Aug. 16, 2010
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“Welcome to the Internet, where men are men, women are men and everyone under 13 is a FBI agent”

I like that slogan.

It reminds me of one time I was playing counter-strike. There was someone typing messages saying they're 14 years old and they want to look for an older man to date.

Guess what. Everyone screamed “FAT HAIRY COP!!!”

I also posed as a girl online on a few occasions. I was in a chatroom with the screen name “Mara-Nina”. Then all my sentences were full of smiley emoticons like XD, ~_^, ^_^, ^.^ x o x o x o and so on and so on. That was fun.


And then there's always craigslist. If you look at the personals, under “men seeking women” and “men seeking men”, you see a laundry list.

But under “women seeking men” or “women seeking women”, you can count the entries with your fingers… and good luck in sorting through the scam artists.

The women who post their pictures on craigslist personals are usually women who are single moms and past their 40s.

Hmmm… why is that?
NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:27PM
lothar at 8:11AM, Aug. 17, 2010
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LOL hahah ! and so on @ second life , also called SL or “Sim-Lesbian”
i was hooked on that game for about a month because it is so easy to get sex, and its hilarious ! i liked to play as a hawt chick and then in the middle of the sex when some guy is telling me he is fapping in RL and about to come i transform into a big fat guy or a flaming fire hydrant . good times
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:45PM
ifelldownthestairs at 5:25PM, Aug. 17, 2010
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oh man… the flaming fire hydrant would have pushed me over the edge. SEXY
you know why birds don't write their memoirs? because birds don't lead epic lives, that's why. who'd want to read what a bird does? nobody. that's who.
http://www.drunkduck.com/i_fell_down_the_stairs
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:57PM
Orin J Master at 8:17AM, Aug. 18, 2010
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lothar, you're truly the gonzo pioneer of internet porn.

perverts and teenagers in the future will look to your legacy and know they owe you everything. and then hopefully wash their hands.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:22PM
NickyP at 11:55PM, Sept. 17, 2010
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The problem with the internet in general is the huge potential for deception. It lets you say or act out anything you want while hiding behind a keyboard; giving a sense of anonymnity. I could be NickyP today, Summergal21 tomorrow, and xXGMANXx the next day… the common user would never be the wiser.

Although admittedly, online dating has gotten much better than it used to be. Sites like eHarmony are pretty strict on making sure people are who they say they are, even going as far as running secret background checks on users (I had a topic on this once in debate). Even still, there's certain aspects of a person that can never be truly perceived through text. A person could sound like a calm, collected intellect online, but the minute you have coffee together you realize they're a nervous wreck with a speech impediment. Albert Einstein could have written you an email saying, “lolz can i has halp on relatibitee xD”, and you'd think he was a 12 year old boy with too much time on his hands.

I think we all have a side of us that tries to reason that, “maybe the person we're chatting to on MSN is a normal person like I am, someone just being themself, but on the internet.” Sadly, not everyone is as honest as that.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:16PM
Aurora Moon at 5:12AM, Sept. 19, 2010
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I've made many long-lasting friendships though MMOs and stuff.

in fact, I met my boyfriend of 8 years though an MMO, one that we both no longer play anymore.

The funny thing though, is the fact that both of us wasn't even sure it was a “real romance” to start with. We both thought it was just infatuation getting the best of us, so we both agreed to just start off as friends and play it safe when it came to meeting each other.

in fact we took things very slowly…. we were basically online romantically-inclined friends for 4 to 5 years before we finally met in person. before it was mostly phone calls, webcam chats, and such.

I think both of us were surprised when we finally met in person and found that the connection we had was so much more stronger in person than offline.

The other people here are right though, there can be a lot of weridoes online and the potential for deception is way too great. In fact when I was a teenager I ran into some psychos online… one of them literally carved my name into his arm and showed me it via webcam, as proof of his ‘love’ for me.

That was why we both were so scared to meet in person at first, I guess.

In fact i would had probably given up on online romances entirely the moment I became an adult thanks to my experiences with creepy people online as an teenager…
if it wasn't for the fact that in my area there's slim picking. seriously, not many single guys my age here… any single guys are a little on the older side, already had kids from divorces and such. :p
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:10AM
Ochitsukanai at 10:32PM, Sept. 22, 2010
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Hawk
It's like going to a park to meet people, but EVERYONE is wearing a giant cardboard box that conceals their identity entirely.
Although slightly unrelated, this arguably sounds like the best park ever.

“So, uh, are you a man or a woman?”
“BEEP BEEP NEITHER, CARDBOARD BOX ROBOT, BEEP BOOP”

Always, I wanna be with mew, and make believe with mew
and live in harmony harmony oh nyan
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:20PM
Product Placement at 8:56AM, Sept. 23, 2010
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Ochitsukanai
Hawk
It's like going to a park to meet people, but EVERYONE is wearing a giant cardboard box that conceals their identity entirely.
Although slightly unrelated, this arguably sounds like the best park ever.
Well guess what Ochi. You're in that park, RIGHT NOW!

-hands Ochi a flag-



Anyways. So that thing I mentioned, where I was clicking with someone online, seems to be progressing quite rapidly and it's reached the point where we've decided to meet up next month.

We've racked up quite an impressive amount of hours chatting through a webcam so I have allot of experience talking to her face to face and can thus confirm her appearance and gender (unless of course this person happens to own the most advanced streaming video editing program in the universe). I'll admit that this has progressed much faster than I anticipated it would but I seem to like where this is heading. Now I can only hope that my example turn out as well as Aurora Moons.
Those were my two cents.
If you have any other questions, please deposit a quarter.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 2:49PM
kyupol at 9:13PM, Sept. 23, 2010
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I had someone email me (regarding MAG-ISA).

We chatted up a bit.

Then out of the blue she sent me a picture of herself in a seductive pose… within an hour or 2 of chatting online.

I felt something was amiss. lol!
NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:25PM
ozoneocean at 10:44PM, Sept. 23, 2010
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kyupol
I felt something was amiss. lol!
Her penis?


The cardboard box analogy is a little disingenuous. In reality people who you meet face to face hide stuff about themselves all the time. It's easier to con people that way too if you're malicious because people are more easily taken in with the mistaken and foolish belief that they can tell more about the person because they've met them- they don't have any natural wariness they might have if they only met online or through an ad or something.
In fact, far, far more cons, rapes, abuses etc. DO happen from people who only met others face to face. ;)
And not just from strangers either. That's actually more likely to happen from someone who you already KNOW, like a friend, acquaintance, or family member.

So, as this thread amply illustrates, the true story here is that we have a natural fear of technology, our Luddite impulses make us construct elaborate justifications for why aspects of telecommunications technology and its applications are scary and dangerous.

Thank goodness not everyone is like us or we'd still be using flint axes and collecting berries all day for our dinner. :)
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:26PM
Genejoke at 4:57AM, Sept. 24, 2010
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Flint axes? I use a stout wooden club to knock them unconscious before dragging them to my cave.

Thinking about it I guess date rape is pretty ancient.

in regards to Kyupols comment about the girl… well bear in mind that he writes a comic and blogs about topics that attract crazies, it is hardly surprising he attracted someone who latched on very quickly.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:33PM
Peipei at 3:40PM, Sept. 28, 2010
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Tried it once, didn't really like the mystery of it all or the distance thing. I'm just gonna stick to the old fashioned way of meeting men. :p

I like Pie!
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:41PM
Eviltwinpixie at 1:01PM, Oct. 1, 2010
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From a female perspective:

That guy you meet online could be an axe murdering psycho! But also…
That guy you met at the bar could equally be an axe murdering psycho!

It makes certain deceptions such as lying about your physical appearance/age/sex more possible, but anyone could lie about their job, interests…. sanity level… ;)

Many of the issues brought up here about online relationships could be equally said about offline ones– marriages that are rushed into without properly getting to know the other person are a bad idea, and rarely work. That's not just an online phenomenon, though, and it's very possible to have a relationship that began online and know the other person very deeply.

I feel like dating sites are a little more iffy, because everyone is out searching for that one thing. It feels like it would be easier to let your guard down, rush in, be deceived.

I met my husband through a discussion forum. It had discussion forums for webcomics like Something Positive and the now defunct Queen of Wands, but it had tons of other stuff going on besides. I was an enthusiastic member of the community, and not in any way looking for romance. I joined a horror RP started by another member of the community, and the players tended to congregate in a chat room to discuss what was going on on the forum. There were maybe 15-20 of us, spread across the world, and we were great friends. Immediately, though, I clicked more with one guy than others. It was perhaps better than a relationship started based on seeing a hot guy at the bar, because we connected on an intellectual level before we exchanged a single photo. We talked for six months before either of us made a move. We spent a lot of time on webcams, so I knew he at least looked like who he was supposed to be, and that's all you can say about most people you've just met.

The big problem was, he lived in America and I lived in England. He made plans to come and visit me. I wanted to do it properly and safely. I had just turned 18 and was still living with my parents, and it was important to me to involve them and keep their trust. I was open and honest with them from the word go, and they were the ones who drove me to meet him. We all had dinner together the first night, and my dad even (awkwardly) suggested that he knew we had a solid relationship prior to meeting, and it would be okay by him if I wanted to stay in the hotel with him. It was awesome. I then went to visit him for three months- A HUGE step for a shy 18 year old who was scared of flying. I am so grateful for my parents' trust and encouragement– without their open-mindedness about the subject of online dating, I'd never be where I am now.

Which is married to him. For over four years, now. I'm a permanent resident in the US and will become a citizen as soon as I can afford the filing fee (student budget, right now ^_^). I have come out of my shell immensely, and am a much more capable and independent person than I otherwise would have been. My life with Ben is wonderful, too. Oh, and I still see some of the other friends from that chat room regularly– the ones that live in MA. Others visit from time to time, and most of us still keep in touch, around seven years later. Taking that risk was the BEST choice I ever made.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:24PM
kyupol at 5:26PM, Oct. 4, 2010
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Genejoke
in regards to Kyupols comment about the girl… well bear in mind that he writes a comic and blogs about topics that attract crazies, it is hardly surprising he attracted someone who latched on very quickly.

I drove her away by acting like a clingy idiot and taking the bait (her emails and instant messages that hint on being in love with me) a step further…

That is the best way to drive a woman away. ACT CLINGY

And she will run away faster than you can say “omg this is crazy” lol!

Women really really really hate hate hate any demostration of weakness. That is just a FACT no matter how you cut it. That's just the way their brains are hard-wired to do.



NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:27PM
Genejoke at 10:39PM, Oct. 4, 2010
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I don't think that's just women.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:33PM
ayesinback at 5:37AM, Oct. 5, 2010
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Genejoke
I don't think that's just women.
from the mouth of babes
under new management
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:14AM
Genejoke at 6:18AM, Oct. 5, 2010
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Someone
and my dad even (awkwardly) suggested that he knew we had a solid relationship prior to meeting, and it would be okay by him if I wanted to stay in the hotel with him. It was awesome.

That's hilarious, I can imagine how awkward that must have been.

Some of my friends did something similar, they met online and she eventually moved from the states to England where they lived for nearly a decade and have now moved back to the states still happily married.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:33PM
kyupol at 8:57AM, Oct. 5, 2010
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Genejoke
I don't think that's just women.

Hey… if a woman was clingy to me that translates to sex on demand.

Because of that, I will treat her like a goddess and worship her… out of gratitude and because that is what a normal non-psychopath would do (reciprocate good behavior with gratitude).

But then again… if I do that, that will make me clingy and drive her away. Sad.

But… if I was more like Joe Stalin (“Gratitude is a sickness suffered by dogs” - Stalin), she'd give sex on demand and not be driven away. lol!
NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:27PM
Eviltwinpixie at 6:51PM, Oct. 5, 2010
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Genejoke
Someone
and my dad even (awkwardly) suggested that he knew we had a solid relationship prior to meeting, and it would be okay by him if I wanted to stay in the hotel with him. It was awesome.

That's hilarious, I can imagine how awkward that must have been.


Yeah, it was pretty much the most embarrassing moment ever. Thank God I was in the back seat of the car and he was driving, so we couldn't see each other. o_O
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:24PM
ozoneocean at 5:30AM, Oct. 6, 2010
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kyupol
Hey… if a woman was clingy to me that translates to sex on demand.
Really?
In reality, sex isn't really the greatest thing in the entire universe. If you don't like the behaviour of your partner, you don't like them. Sex isn't enough to keep you together.
Clingy behaviour tends to be suffocating and infringing on your space and freedom. That's why most men and women have an aversion to it. -Everyone needs a little space and time to call their own.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:37PM
Genejoke at 5:46AM, Oct. 7, 2010
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Don't you remember being a horny teenager? When dipping your stick is the most important think ever EVER EVER!!!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:33PM
NickyP at 12:09PM, Oct. 7, 2010
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Genejoke
Don't you remember being a horny teenager? When dipping your stick is the most important think ever EVER EVER!!!!!

Teenager? Among people in their mid-20's, this is still pretty important.

While eviltwinpixie's story is actually rather heartwarming, I think it's one success story among hundreds of not-so-successful. Yet, as another poster added, there's hardly a difference between that and relationships started upfront.

But I think regardless of your position on the subject, we can all agree that the internet has become a very popular tool for starting the relationship, in terms of breaking the ice. The last date I was on started from commenting on someone's status on Facebook. The one before that was one where I asked her out in person. Both went absolutely no where, hah. :dizzy:
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:16PM
blindsk at 2:42PM, Oct. 7, 2010
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ozoneocean
In reality, sex isn't really the greatest thing in the entire universe. If you don't like the behaviour of your partner, you don't like them. Sex isn't enough to keep you together.

Very true. It's why it's a common theme in movies and…well…sometimes in real life where the woman holds off on the sex to see if the man will keep his interest. Sex on the first night though? Usually that's not very stable.

I often wonder if this is why women are more inclined to try a relationship online. Because it all starts from “written” interaction, they believe the two of them can hold meaningful conversations without the immediate potential of getting into bed with them.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:25AM
Genejoke at 3:58PM, Oct. 7, 2010
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Someone
Teenager? Among people in their mid-20's, this is still pretty important.

And thirties… but then I am blunt enough to say it upfront the morning after.
See you again? hell no.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:33PM

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