Debate and Discussion

Ontario MPP Pay Hike... (plus a rant about social equality and wages)
kyupol at 5:33PM, Feb. 5, 2007
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They getting 25% increase while min wage getting .25 cents increase.

Wow. Looks really really fair.

A minimum wage worker makes $16,000 a year if he/she works full time. You cannot live with that shit salary unless you get a room for rent or something.

The minimum wage should be at least $10 per hour.

And whats with these unfair distribution of wealth? Rich get richer and poor getting poorer?

Increase the wages, increase purchasing power.
Increase purchasing power, increase stuff to be bought
Increase stuff to be bought means increased demand.
Increased demand means need to increase production.
Increased need for production means increased need to create more jobs and increased profits.


I wasnt born yet in the 70s and I was a toddler in the 80s. I heard that the CEO to the worker ratio was $20:$1 while now its $400:$1.

Fuck that. At this rate, sooner or later, it will become like the movie SOILENT GREEN where the rich are in one place while the rest of the town is just sprawling with poor people all over the place.

Hasnt anyone noticed that the jobs in the jobbank are mostly jobs that pay $12 per hour? While at the same time, the advertised apartments ask $800 a month or more. These houses are getting more and more expensive and disproportionate… same thing with cars too.

So what is this coming to?

Wouldnt it be wise to prepare yourself in the event everything will be reduced to third world living? With gangs and crime on the rise, increased unemployment, increased poverty, etc… etc… etc… Or maybe as the chaos is spilling all over the place, some guy suddenly appears and acts so badass like he got the magical solution to everything… then he gets voted into power… and then boom. Fascism right there.

I think its WISE to stock up on guns and weapons and learn survival skills like handyman stuff, fighting (both armed and unarmed), first aid, mechanic stuff, sewing clothes, cooking, etc… thats what I'm planning to do and I'm getting there slowly but surely.
NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:25PM
Inkmonkey at 5:52PM, Feb. 5, 2007
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Just so you know, Kyupol, this dystopian “Road Warrior” future you're predicting, if it is coming, won't be around for generations. So unless Kung Fu Badassery and the willingness to wipe your ass with a pinecone are hereditary, I doubt you're going to get much use out of them.

The problem with raising the minimum wage is that, to compensate for the sudden hike in payment for doing the crappiest of crap jobs, everything else costs more and everyone else has to be paid more. If a guy today is earning $10 an hour for something that requires $5/hr worth of skill and/or experience, it's not fair to pay him the same as the minimum wage guys who couldn't handle tasks of his level. So he gets paid an extra 5 bucks, and so on up the totem pole. Add to this the fact that companies now have to pay out at least $5 to all their employees, and that means that the money has to come from somewhere. So, because they are required to pay their employees more, they have to raise prices just to maintain the status quo.

So, in short, a raise in the minimum wage is cute and is really spiffy at first, but in the long run it doesn't solve anything.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:59PM
ccs1989 at 6:10PM, Feb. 5, 2007
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I think the minimum wage could use a bit of a hike. I mean, maybe a dollar or two.

What I don't get is why they can't raise the minimum wage without raising everyone else's. I mean, I know there's a “reason” for it, but then why can CEO saleries get raised so much and no one says that's going to unbalance the world economy or such and such.

Anyway I don't approve of a single person owning too much. Bill Gates has the right idea, giving away so much of his money. But people like the oligarchs in Russia who horde their money…I don't like that. It's like Andrew Carnegie said: “It's a disgrace for a rich man to die rich.”

It was either Carnegie or Rockefeller anyway.
http://ccs1989.deviantart.com

“If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.”
-Henry David Thoreau, Walden
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:38AM
ozoneocean at 6:38PM, Feb. 5, 2007
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Inkmonkey
So, in short, a raise in the minimum wage is cute and is really spiffy at first, but in the long run it doesn't solve anything.
That's not quite right Ink, for one thing you don't account for the surreal level of earnings of the CEOs and how much that has vastly increased.

Secondly, Places like Australia have a minimum wage closer to a level that Kuypol suggests, and have had for quite a long time, and yet inflation is lower than that of the US (or so I believe), and the buying power of lower paid workers is not relatively decreased either. People in here and many other developed first world countries do not have to work two jobs simply to survive- unless they have extra commitments like big debts, very high bills and an extremely expensive mortgage.
The wage level Kuypol talks about is considered bellow the poverty line here.

The situation Kuypol describes sounds closer to that of a developing or third world nation. It's something to be very concerned about. But don't worry about that apocalyptic crap yet, Ink's right there: you're a LONG way from break down, but that doesn't mean it'll be that nice a place to live for a large proportion of the population.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:25PM
Black_Kitty at 7:45PM, Feb. 5, 2007
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A month or so ago, before the media started associating MPP pay hike with minimum pay, I remember reading an editorial somewhere about one of the reasonings behind the pay hike.

Long story short: if you want competent sane people with innovative ideas and a desire to better your community/city/country, you have to be willing to pay these people. People can make far more money in the private sector then a MPP would and they wouldn't have to deal with oppositions attacking them, voters who hate them no matter what they do, or the media watching their every single move. And every four years there's an election where they have to compete to KEEP their job.

One of the reasons why the 25% pay hike was put in place was because they've noticed that many MPPs were being lured away with promises of higher pay elsewhere. Furthermore, this was a pay wage increase that was recommended by an Integrity Commission report. If a 25% pay hike means making the job much more attractive so that we can have better, more experienced politicans running the province? Oh hell yeah I'm all for it.

Which is why, despite the media linking the 25% payhike to the 0.25 cents pay wage hike, I see this whole thing as a separate issue. For one thing, it wasn't really a twenty five cents minimum page wage. The 0.25 cents was part of a bigger pay wage increase but was implemented gradually. Another thing is that both pay hikes deal with separate issues.

Nobody can live on a $8/hour pay. I highly doubt anyone could live on a $10/hour pay comfortably either. However, what are the kind of jobs that pay minimum wage? Are these the jobs that people make careers out of? Are people meant to work at these minimum wage jobs the rest of their lives and live comfortably? Most of these jobs do not require high skills training or education and nobody wishes that they'll grow up to be a dishwasher.

Sure a minimum wage increase would be nice…but wouldn't it be nicer if people had better jobs? Why are people stuck working minimum wage jobs for the long run? Would raising the minimum wage even help the working poor? Instead of throwing more money at people, what about the possibility of training people or providing them with an education so that they can be more qualified for jobs that pay higher then the minimum?

[Edit: Here's an article that would probably be of interest. According to the Premier, a $10/hour minimum wage will eventually happen. It just won't happen overnight.]
  
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:24AM
Phantom Penguin at 8:31PM, Feb. 5, 2007
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Well wage wise i get fucked pretty hard. Sorry for the language.
I work 50+ hours a week, sometimes more. I worked for 13 months 24 hours a day 7 days a week 2 years in a row with only a 4 month break in between.

Yes i get good benifits but it doesn't make up for the fact i can barely make the bills.
The pay goes up with Rank but for gods sake how can a first Leutenant make 2,000 more dollars a month then me when i served 2 tours in Iraq in direct combat when he has served none and probably works behind a desk.

And even more so outside of the military. A guy that sits behind a desk makes hundreds of thousands of dollars more a year then me. While living cost skyrockets and my hard earned money gets me less and less.

On a plus side if this “road warrior” thing comes true i will be in a good postion.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:42PM
subcultured at 8:44PM, Feb. 5, 2007
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now that we have entered a world of computers/machines used assembly line, job that require human power isn't as high pay anymore. People get paid more to think rather than do, because that's where the profit comes from. a person that is cashier jockey isn't making the company much profit, however a person in marketing who comes up with a good catchy slogan brings in millions.

the slogan “just do it” brings nike millions because it ties in many nike products. people will buy a shirt/shoe/hat with that slogan because they see other people with that slogan. same as with designer shirt i.e. “tommy hilfiger” “gucci”…they know how to price it so a product that will only cost $30 to make will sell for $300.

there are some exceptions such as athletes. but they make a lot of their money from advertisers and companies who will pay them to wear their equiptment on games. that is why in todays society it's better to be educated than a person who just gets by on their muscles.

i'm not too sure if raising the minum wage exponetially will benifit society. people would just be content on getting $15 working at a burger joint rather than go to college to study biomechanics, chemistry, politics…etc . I would think that would stagnate that country, while other contries will eventually overtake them with new discoveries and have a better stronger economy because it's run by smarter people. eventually the country that stagnated, but still have plenty of arms will try to wage war as a last dicth effort to get more power/money/land (north korea who is jealous of south korea's economic superiority points missiles towards them)
J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:01PM
ozoneocean at 9:19PM, Feb. 5, 2007
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Well raising the minimum wage hasn't killed the economies of a lot of countries out there so that whole argument all you guys put forward falls so flat, it's like paper… The same with universal healthcare and stuff like that. It can work and it does.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:25PM
Black_Kitty at 9:55PM, Feb. 5, 2007
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I think it'll only work out if it's done gradually. What some people have been asking for in Ontario is an overnight increase from $8/hour to $10/hour. For small/medium business, that would be tricky and hard to swallow overnight. It will not be surprising if there will be some loss in terms of part-time opportunities as businesses try to deal with the sharp and sudden increase.

One letter/article also suggested that although a lot of businesses may pay above the minimum wage, an increase can also have a knock-on effect. They may feel pressured to increase their pay scale but at the same time, may not be making more money to support the raise.

Even this increase to $8/hour wasn't a sudden event. It was actually the last phase of the Ontario government's plan to increase minimum wage from $6.68 to $8.
  
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:24AM
ozoneocean at 10:19PM, Feb. 5, 2007
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Well every country's different… Here is the latest on the Australian situation:
Wage-Setting Decision

The Australian Fair Pay Commission’s first decision was made in October and took effect from 1 December 2006. The decision has three main elements.

*
an increase of $0.72 to the standard Federal Minimum Wage (to $13.47 an hour);
*
an increase of $0.72 to basic periodic rates of pay in all Australian Pay and Classification Scales (Pay Scales) up to $18.42 per hour (i.e. up to around $700 per week based on a standard 38 hour week); and
*
an increase of $0.58 to basic periodic rates of pay in all Pay Scales above $18.42 per hour (i.e. above around $700 per week based on a standard 38 hour week).

The increases flow on to junior employees, employees to whom training arrangements apply, employees with disabilities and basic piece rates of pay.

Examples of the increase for different Wage Rates (based on a 38 hour week)

1. For employees earning the standard Federal Minimum Wage of $484.50 per week or $12.75 an hour, the October decision grants an increase of $0.72 an hour or $27.36 per week. Their wage will increase to $13.47 an hour or $511.86 per week

2. For employees earning a minimum wage rate of $600.02 per week or $15.79 an hour, the October decision grants an increase of $0.72 an hour or $27.36 per week. Their wage will increase to $16.51 an hour or $627.38 per week.

3. For employees earning a minimum wage rate of $750.12 per week or $19.74 an hour, the October decision grants an increase of $0.58 an hour or $22.04 per week. Their wage will increase to $20.32 an hour or $772.16 per week.
More here

-The Aussie dollar is currently worth about 0.92$ Canadian.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:25PM
subcultured at 10:20PM, Feb. 5, 2007
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just because it didn't happen before it wont happen in the future
J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:01PM
ozoneocean at 10:25PM, Feb. 5, 2007
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subcultured
just because it didn't happen before it wont happen in the future
What? Kyupol's apocalypse? Inflation, spontaneous sex changes? Mass breakouts of free love in the streets?
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:25PM
Black_Kitty at 10:30PM, Feb. 5, 2007
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It's a bit late in the night but if I'm reading it correctly…wow, you guys get paid quite nicely! :D Although I wonder if living costs are the same here as they are in Australia.

What? Kyupol's apocalypse? Inflation, spontaneous sex changes? Mass breakouts of free love in the streets?

Don't be silly. We just had free loving last Tuesday. What are you, behind the times?
  
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:24AM
subcultured at 10:32PM, Feb. 5, 2007
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ozoneocean
subcultured
just because it didn't happen before it wont happen in the future
What? Kyupol's apocalypse? Inflation, spontaneous sex changes? Mass breakouts of free love in the streets?

all possibilities are possible in a multidemensional universe
J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:01PM
kyupol at 4:57AM, Feb. 6, 2007
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I'd be slightly fucked in a “road warrior” world.

I havent fired a gun in 5 years at least… so expect my aim to be shit. And I have limited knowledge on fixing cars. Fuck. lol

Or what about a full blown socialist revolution in the capitalist states?
NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:25PM
kyupol at 5:19AM, Feb. 6, 2007
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an increase of $0.72 to the standard Federal Minimum Wage (to $13.47 an hour);

Is that proportional to the cost of living?

How much is an apartment or house?
How much is public transport?
How much is a car (everythin from insurance, gas, monthly, etc…)?
How much is the grocery bill to have a decent meal?

I dont live in australia… so pls enlighten me on this. :D
NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:25PM
ozoneocean at 5:45AM, Feb. 6, 2007
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Black_Kitty
It's a bit late in the night but if I'm reading it correctly…wow, you guys get paid quite nicely! :D Although I wonder if living costs are the same here as they are in Australia.
What? Kyupol's apocalypse? Inflation, spontaneous sex changes? Mass breakouts of free love in the streets?
Don't be silly. We just had free loving last Tuesday. What are you, behind the times?
WHAT? I missed the free love… My life is pure shiz :(

That's just the info I got from that site, I'm no expert on wages and conditions here, in fact I know almost nothing about it… I just knew vaguely that wages weren't as low as Kyupol was talking about here and the info seems to back me up. My knowledge is more general and superficial in this area than usual. :)
Wages for someone who's left school at 15 and has moved straight into a job at McDonald's are probably lower than the minimum award. The same with the pay of someone who's listed as being a trainee or apprentice. I'm sure there are lots of holes that unscrupulous employers exploit.

Ok… as for living expenses, hmm… My last electricity bill was about $69 for 60 days. Gas was about $65 for 91 days, water usage for 2 months was $29 (supply charges are a LOT more though), phone was $44 for last month, my broadband is $60… The prices on grocery specials at my local shop are here. (pdf) Here's another.

-I live pretty cheaply though, I don't drive, I don't use air-conditioning or even watch TV (can't be buggered), the light bulbs are low energy, etc. It costs me $3.10 to travel by train or bus into the city (ticket lasts 2 hours for two zone travel unlimited within those zones during that time), a coffee usually costs about $3.50 these days, but it's more or less depending on where you by it. 2 litres of milk is about $2.70 when not on special I think… Bread is about the same. Petrol prices have been over the dollar mark since this stupid war, but I couldn't tell you my how much- since I don't drive. A paperback novel costs about $16 these days I think…

I hope that gives you an idea of living costs in the City of Perth Western Australia. ;)
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:25PM
Phantom Penguin at 8:16AM, Feb. 6, 2007
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kyupol
I'd be slightly fucked in a “road warrior” world.

I havent fired a gun in 5 years at least… so expect my aim to be shit. And I have limited knowledge on fixing cars. Fuck. lol

Or what about a full blown socialist revolution in the capitalist states?

Haha i shot yesterday.
And back on subject:

And socialism wouldn't work here in the states, people here are to greedy. And i'm not putting myself over it, im to damn greedy.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:42PM
subcultured at 9:03AM, Feb. 6, 2007
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socialism decreases creativity..and that's just not talking about art. business creativity as well as science. thinking outside the box.
J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:01PM
Charlox at 7:01PM, Feb. 6, 2007
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I'm absolutely disgusted by the stance that some have taken on this topic. Why aren't you concerned about the increasing gap between the haves and have-nots? It's pretty obvious that people who go through the trouble of getting an education should get a better wage like doctors for example. But to live in a world where the richest 10% own 85% of the world's assets. The richest 2% own more than half the world's wealth.
Back to the topic of wage increases, the problem lies with minimum wage unable to keep up with inflation since the 70s I believe. I'm guessing the majority of you here have not been to NYC where rent is soaring. There's no way you could pay for rent and train fare and have money for necessities like bills and food on a minimum wage salary.
Not only are the rich getting richer but this administration's latest budget proposal to congress is trying to increase the military budget while trying to cut for the next five years $66 billion from medicare and $12 billion from medicaid. It proposes cuts for 141 domestic programs.
What's funny is that the New York Times noted that the cost of the war would have paid for universal health care in the US, nursery education for all three and four-year-olds in the country, immunization for children round the world against a host of diseases, and still leave about half of the money left over. Yet we keep feeding the war machine with our taxes and it always benefits somebody else other than the middle and poor classes.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:40AM
Black_Kitty at 10:49PM, Feb. 6, 2007
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ozoneocean
-I live pretty cheaply though, I don't drive, I don't use air-conditioning or even watch TV (can't be buggered), the light bulbs are low energy, etc. It costs me $3.10 to travel by train or bus into the city (ticket lasts 2 hours for two zone travel unlimited within those zones during that time), a coffee usually costs about $3.50 these days, but it's more or less depending on where you by it. 2 litres of milk is about $2.70 when not on special I think… Bread is about the same. Petrol prices have been over the dollar mark since this stupid war, but I couldn't tell you my how much- since I don't drive. A paperback novel costs about $16 these days I think…

I hope that gives you an idea of living costs in the City of Perth Western Australia. ;)

Indeed~ :)

I live in a house of four though so a lot of the bills and such will differ. But the last paragraph I can offer some form of comparison. (Sure it's not scientific but it's kind of neat!) Where I live, an adult token/ticket for public transportation cost $2.75 and is not time limited. Coffee depends on where you get it (more expensive at Starbucks, not so much at Tim Hortons.) I think I can get 3 litres of milk for around $5. Bread depends on the brand and type. I just got gas for 85 cents a litre. Finally, a paperback novel cost around $11. Oh and taxes are 14% (Goods and Services Tax and Provincial Sales Tax.)

In regards to socialism…someone's going to have to clear this up for me. What exactly does one mean when they say socialism? I'm getting this whole vibe where everyone shares everything and everyone owns everything. How different is that from the idealized vision of communism?

And as I said to my friend yesterday…maybe if we pay our politicans better, competent and sane people will actually replace the crazy ones. In the meantime, they can all waste taxpayers' money by throwing hissy fits over a photo shoot.
  
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:24AM
Black_Kitty at 11:30PM, Feb. 6, 2007
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I know this isn't about wages but in a way, I guess it's about social equality and social services. Ozoneocean mentioned universal health care in passing and although I don't feel I'm fully understanding what people are suggesting exactly when they talk about a socialist point of view, I do wonder if the vibe I'm getting from it is correct. If it is, then in some ways the concept of universal health care could be an example.

Universal health care is basically publically funded health care. In a way everyone owns universal health care because everyone pays for it with their taxes. Now I like universal health care a lot but I think people often have some misconceptions about universal health care. For one thing, it's not really free. We paid for it with our taxes. Another thing is that taxes aren't the only thing we pay with for universal health care. We also pay for it with time.

Speaking as someone whose loved one is waiting within the universal health care system, waiting does exist. This is what happens when you share. But at the same time, nobody is denied basic health care. I can visit the doctor any time I want and I have and will continue to do so.

I think universal health care also requires a good deal of trust in the government. You have to trust that the money taken from your taxes will be spent wisely and that you will get quality health care. You have to trust that the doctors are well trained or that there are enough doctors to begin with.

In a way, universal health care requires a certain type of mindset from a society. It requires you to not only pay for YOUR health care but that of others and not just with money but with your time and a possible risk to your health (you may be waiting but your sickness may not wait with you.) It also requires you to trust that your government will not screw you over and will maintain a quality health care system.

It's very similar to public education. Publically funded education means everyone has the right to it but it may also mean accomodating everyone. It may also mean less funding or certain materials being banned from schools.

I guess I'm a bit on a rambling streak here but I can't help but think back to when universal health care was discussed in another forum I go to. A lot of people there are deeply opposed to it. They're not opposed to being generous, they're opposed to having the government deciding to use their money to pay for other people's health care. They also worry about wait time or lowered quality of health care.

I guess all this rambling comes down to this: in striving for social equality, are you willing to trust? Are you willing to give up certain things for other people?
  
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:24AM
ozoneocean at 11:47PM, Feb. 6, 2007
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There's no such thing as Socialism as an actual defined, existing system that you can point to and see in action. I wish people would stop talking about it as some kind of scary bogeyman. In practice various countries have systems in place that are more or less socialist than others, they may be right wing or left wing. It doesn't mean communism, although communist systems do have a big focus on socialism, what it means is a government that actually tries to care for its people- be that in a good way or not so good way: The taxes you pay to the government are put back into social services to help the broadest amount of the population possible… Broadly that can mean subsidised or free schooling, public transport healthcare etc, public infrastructure like train lines, community facilities, sports stadiums, whatever. It can also mean subsidised and or nationalised utilities like water, electricity, communications, gas… There's also a great focus on programs for the unemployed, payments for the elderly, for disabilities and so on. There also tends to be a lot of regulation to ensure good working standards, levels of pay and worker safety, all overseen by the government.

The trick with more socially responsible systems like this is they have to be very carefully balanced so as not to become overburdened by all the different things they take on. Now a fool who has no idea about this sort of thing will just look at all those commitments and think “oh no, it'll collapse under its own weight! Privatise! User pays! Every man for himself!”. This is silly; every system has to be carefully managed or disaster will strike it, it's just that in a more social system more people tend to benefit than in a less social system. :)

Pay doesn't matter in politics, that's a total myth. Yep, they really love getting as much money as they can, but good and bad people would still be attracted regardless, no matter if it paid $1.00 or $1,000,000! What they're attracted to is a motive to control, to work to make a change, to make their vision true, and yes: to do good (as they see it).
To examine the pay thing better think about the mod and Admin positions here: would you get better people doing those jobs of they were paid? Maybe… Maybe not. And what about your example of teaching not being about the pay? It's the same thing.
When politicians are in it for the money in many African countries they always tend to collapse… (Where kickbacks and things are the primary motives for the job). Where pay matters isn't for the leaders: it's in the public sector, these are the people who find better pay in the private sector and for whom high pay is the only real motive for doing those jobs.

-edit- More of a reply to BK:
Yeah, these systems are just balancing acts, like all systems. The good thing though is that they're a lot fairer than less social systems. As for education and health; most more social systems still have private schooling and private healthcare as well as the public system. This can be a good supplement, but the private systems running alongside the public ones ironically get a little parasitic -NOT the other way around as you might think.
And to squabbling the pettiness within that council: it's funny and tragic when it happens, but it happens in all human organisation where there's envy, people with equal power and agendas; commercial, political, government agency, Military, whatever. It's just in this case it's very much in the public eye and they represent other people so they're more accountable for what they did: i.e “that's OUR money they're wasting on this tomfoolery!”, makes it seem worse.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:25PM
kyupol at 5:19AM, Feb. 7, 2007
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Look at this space, why are you doing artwork for free? Why are you being socialist with your art? Why are you not being greedy with it?

Its a different topic… but… I think its not about being socialist but being more of attention whores or any other various reasons for webcomicing.

1) Comic geeks (stereotypically speaking) have limited to no social life and the internet is a way for them to get friends and be “popular”.

2) Artists (again stereotypically speaking) have a showoff tendency. They wanna show off their art in order to gain friends and be “popular”.

3) Ok fine. I'm not an anti social loner! stop stereotyping me! Ok… you might be the most popular guy/gal in town… but the popularity aint enough. I wanna be popular in the internet as well.



Just my 2 cents on this.


I live in a house of four though so a lot of the bills and such will differ.

Thats something some people I know got shit to deal with. Its like… ooh I gotta live with my parents because I'm making a shit minimum wage job… I hate mama and/or dada but I have no choice.

In my case, I pretty much live decently except having a car. Fucking gods sake I cannot afford me even a shitbox car because the insurance…. its gonna be a financial hemmorhage. I pretty much have to save up for a shitbox and at least have 1 year financial leeway for insurance. Fucking insurance company quoting me between $200-$300 a month in car insurance. Well I blame the idiot drivers my age who think theyre in nascar or something and think theyre invincible even after getting into lots of accidents and licence suspensions and demerit points. If younger drivers were less of idiots, insurance wouldnt go up. If I'm have my own drivers ed course designed by me, I'd give em a horror movie seeing the blood and guts of all those who die in car accidents. The brutal wreckage of steel, smoke… ambulances, police, firemen all over the place. Maybe that will make them think twice before trying any stupid stunts.



And right now its just goddamn freezing cold and I gotta wear extra layers of clothing. And screw the TTC. TTC is just very very slow unless you live in downtown toronto which has expensive rates as well. haha.
NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:25PM
Black_Kitty at 1:09PM, Feb. 7, 2007
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ozoneocean
Pay doesn't matter in politics, that's a total myth. Yep, they really love getting as much money as they can, but good and bad people would still be attracted regardless, no matter if it paid $1.00 or $1,000,000! What they're attracted to is a motive to control, to work to make a change, to make their vision true, and yes: to do good (as they see it).
To examine the pay thing better think about the mod and Admin positions here: would you get better people doing those jobs of they were paid? Maybe… Maybe not. And what about your example of teaching not being about the pay? It's the same thing.
When politicians are in it for the money in many African countries they always tend to collapse… (Where kickbacks and things are the primary motives for the job). Where pay matters isn't for the leaders: it's in the public sector, these are the people who find better pay in the private sector and for whom high pay is the only real motive for doing those jobs.

I disagree somewhat. I do believe that pay does play a factor. Most people would never go into teaching for the money but along that same vein, this is why there's a shortage of certain types of teachers. Tech teachers for example are in demand. Oftentimes you're asking people who are in the technology sector to switch into a profession that pays less, has more workload, and deals with more stress. It doesn't mean nobody would do it but it takes a certain type of experienced person to not only quit their job but to stay in the teaching profession. French teachers are also in high demand here and there has even been rumours that if you so much as possess a pulse, the Catholic school board will take you in even if you're not Catholic.

To pull it back to the MPPs, good experienced politicans may not only be lured away to the private sector but to the federal level of politics as well. They can still do good, make a difference, have control, whatever…but just not at a provincial level anymore. There's even the same risks involved since all politicans face an election every four years be they at the federal, provincial, or municipal level. And nobody lures away the incompetent.

Paying more money is not the end all to be all of solutions but I think it's not unfair to ask that pay is given where it's due. Despite what we think of politicans, their job is important and so long as they do their job properly, I don't mind paying them a better salary. No democratic society can function without politicans afterall and in a way, politicians have the power to address social inequality.

And I don't think we have private health care running alongside the public one here. I think there are private clinics but when it comes to treatment for more serious illnesses, I think the only option for private health care lies in a trip to the United States.

kyupol
Thats something some people I know got shit to deal with. Its like… ooh I gotta live with my parents because I'm making a shit minimum wage job… I hate mama and/or dada but I have no choice.

You know, oddly enough I never get crap for it. Might be because whatever money I earn, I hand it all to my parents (although I work so little, I doubt it's all that significant.) It's also a cultural thing for me. I know in Western culture there's this emphasis on moving out and showing that you're an independent adult but I never really felt that pressure. I also love my parents and I've long suspected that if I move out, I'll somehow find my mother moving with me (or maybe she wouldn't even bother. She'll just keep draining my bank account and see how far I can go with fifty dollars. :P)

My brother's having the same problem with car insurance. That's why he doesn't drive and instead, I drive him around.
  
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:24AM
kyupol at 1:58PM, Feb. 7, 2007
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Might be because whatever money I earn, I hand it all to my parents

I also love my parents and I've long suspected that if I move out, I'll somehow find my mother moving with me (or maybe she wouldn't even bother. She'll just keep draining my bank account and see how far I can go with fifty dollars. :P)

I must guess… you must be asian? (I apologize if I come off racist here or anything)

And oh. I'm asian too. And I know what youre talking about. Asian families are stereotypically tightly knit and one of the most stable and trusting among all races and cultures.

Wow. You trust your parents that much? (*jealous… lol*) Must be nice with all the love and care and trust in the family that you can hand em your hard earned dough and the key to your bank account. Very nice. Wish you and your family good luck and I hope it stays that way!!! :)

NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:25PM
ozoneocean at 2:01PM, Feb. 7, 2007
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joined: 1-2-2004
In your example of teachers you're citing people with specialist skills, that has no analogue in politics where the role has to be general only. Again, look to the private/public sector, this is where money makes all the difference in government: acquiring and retaining those decent public servants!
Of course politicians want to move on up the ladder to the highest office they can attain! Almost all of them want that, it has nothing to do with pay, and money wouldn't entice them to stay in the lower echelons. Why do you think George Bush Junior became the president of the USA? The job pays crap! He made a lot more money in business and will again after he leaves office, it's the same with many US politicians; you can obviously see they're not in it for the money they get paid.

Regional politics is a bit of a training ground for people in political parties. That's how they treat it.

We have a public and a private healthcare system here in Australia running in unison. You can go private for anything and avoid all waiting lists if you want. -the money put into the private system tends to gradually undermine the public system in many and subtle ways, as with private schooling. But it's a balancing act, like I say. ;)

As for Kuypol's “popular” theory of webcomicing: too simplistic, sorry. Popularity for its own sake is irrelevant to one such as I who has had at all before at greater levels in the past, and can get it with a little work in other fields if I choose. All I care about is that I get some encouragement to continue with something that I enjoy, and I'm sure it's the same with a lot of the rest of the webcomicers. Where popularity really matters is when it's at the level to make your work pay in its own right, and that's different again from what Kyupol was putting forward.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:25PM
Black_Kitty at 2:33PM, Feb. 7, 2007
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ozoneocean
Regional politics is a bit of a training ground for people in political parties. That's how they treat it.

And I think that's exactly what the Premier was trying to change by raising the pay by 25%. Pay alone is not going to make people stay but it's a good start.

I don't want to make it sound like if we pay people enough, then they'll definitely stay. Some still might leave anyway. At the same time however, I have heard of people who suggest that politicians/teachers/doctors/police officers/etc shouldn't demand more pay because if they truly like serving the public, then they shouldn't be arguing about money. They should be working for the pure satisfaction of the job.

But if you're not paying these people properly, then you're not valuing these people properly. They're doing a job. At the end of the day, you're their employers and they're your employees. If you don't want to pay them fairly then we have all basically accepted that your region really is a training ground for politicans to cut their teeth into before they move onto something better and more important then your needs.

And yeah I'm Asian. :) And thanks Kyupol~
  
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:24AM
ozoneocean at 2:55PM, Feb. 7, 2007
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But wasn't it Plato, (or maybe Socrates? I don't know…), who said that politicians should give up everything in order to qualify to serve and receive no other rewards? It makes sense if you think about it.

And don't you have a right wing guy in charge now anyway? They tend to think of the world in terms of value and money… (I'm generalising!), but I'll tell you right now: if I was in the a politician in a state, provincial, or territorial government and I was offered a move up the ladder to a position in national or federal politics (whatever you call it there ;)), I'd take it without a thought no matter what I was being paid and so would most other people! -because you simply don't get into the game for money in the first place. The only thing that would hold me back is if I had stronger social ties and a greater feeling of commitment and responsibility to my immediate community than to my nation as a whole.

-doctors, police etc are an entirely different matter! These are what I keep calling public sector workers BK, and these are the ones who I keep on saying that you have to pay more in order to retain them because they really do have more attractive options open to them in the private sector. This will never be the case with politicians.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:25PM
Black_Kitty at 3:16PM, Feb. 7, 2007
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ozoneocean
But wasn't it Plato, (or maybe Socrates? I don't know…), who said that politicians should give up everything in order to qualify to serve and receive no other rewards? It makes sense if you think about it.

Maybe, I'm not sure. Then again, I've always thought of the days of walking around in robes and talking about philosophy as over. :)

And don't you have a right wing guy in charge now anyway? They tend to think of the world in terms of value and money… (I'm generalising!), but I'll tell you right now: if I was in the a politician in a state, provincial, or territorial government and I was offered a move up the ladder to a position in national or federal politics (whatever you call it there ;)), I'd take it without a thought no matter what I was being paid and so would most other people! -because you simply don't get into the game for money in the first place. The only thing that would hold me back is if I had stronger social ties and a greater feeling of commitment and responsibility to my immediate community than to my nation as a whole.

Conservative minority government at the moment. So although he's right wing, he's on a bit of a short leash. :)

It could very well be that people will move on anyway in which case, you'll need someone else who's willing to give up what they were doing before to run for office. I know the first mayor of Toronto had to give up his business in order to become mayor. Mind you, he gave it to his son but he did have to give it up so he could have another job that only last four years.

-doctors, police etc are an entirely different matter! These are what I keep calling public sector workers BK, and these are the ones who I keep on saying that you have to pay more in order to retain them because they really do have more attractive options open to them in the private sector. This will never be the case with politicians.

Why not? Politicians serve the public. I know sometimes it doesn't seem like it and nobody seem to have anything nice to say about them, but they are public servants. There are other options open to politicians, especially those who are experienced. With the amount of work politicans have to do and the constant challenge to their job (elections,) I don't think it's that hard for some of them to find more attractive options then running for office.
  
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:24AM

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