Debate and Discussion

Pedophiles- When religion shelters the sickest bastards on earth.
Skullbie at 12:35PM, May 20, 2009
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090520/ap_on_re_eu/eu_ireland_catholic_abuse
A fiercely debated, long-delayed investigation into Ireland's Roman Catholic-run institutions says priests and nuns terrorized thousands of boys and girls in workhouse-style schools for decades — and government inspectors failed to stop the chronic beatings, rapes and humiliation.

Nine years in the making, Wednesday's 2,600-page report sides almost completely with the horrific reports of abuse from former students sent to more than 250 church-run, mostly residential institutions. But victims' leaders said it didn't go far enough — particularly because none of their abusers were identified by name.

The report concluded that church officials always shielded their orders' pedophiles from arrest to protect their own reputations and, according to documents uncovered in the Vatican, knew that many pedophiles were serial attackers.


The investigators said overwhelming, consistent testimony from still-traumatized men and women, now in their 50s to 80s, had demonstrated beyond a doubt that the entire system treated children more like prison inmates and slaves than people with legal rights and human potential.

“A climate of fear, created by pervasive, excessive and arbitrary punishment, permeated most of the institutions and all those run for boys. Children lived with the daily terror of not knowing where the next beating was coming from,” the final report of Ireland's Commission to Inquire Into Child Abuse concluded.

More than 30,000 children deemed to be petty thieves, truants or from dysfunctional families — a category that often included unmarried mothers — were sent to Ireland's austere network of industrial schools, reformatories, orphanages and hostels from the 1930s until the last church-run facilities shut in the 1990s.

The report, unveiled by High Court Justice Sean Ryan, found that molestation and rape were “endemic” in boys' facilities, chiefly run by the Christian Brothers, and supervisors pursued policies that increased the danger. Girls supervised by orders of nuns, chiefly the Sisters of Mercy, suffered much less sexual abuse but frequent assaults and humiliation designed to make them feel worthless.

Victims of the system have long demanded that the truth of their experiences be documented and made public.

But several victims — who were prevented from attending Wednesday's report launch and scuffled with police outside a central Dublin hotel — said the report didn't go far enough and rejected the church leaders' apologies as insincere.

Kelly said the report should have examined how children like himself were taken away from parents without just cause, and demanded more answers from Irish governments that ceded control over their lives to the church. He said any apologies offered now were “hollow, shallow and have no substance or merit at all. We feel betrayed and cheated today.”

But its findings will not be used for criminal prosecutions — in part because the Christian Brothers successfully sued the commission in 2004 to keep the identities of all of its members, dead or alive, unnamed in the report. No real names, whether of victims or perpetrators, appear in the final document.

The Irish government already has funded a parallel compensation system that has paid 12,000 abuse victims an average of euro65,000 ($90,000). About 2,000 claims remain outstanding.

Victims receive the payouts only if they waive their rights to sue the state and the church. Hundreds have rejected that condition and taken their abusers and those church employers to court.

Wednesday's report said children had no safe way to tell authorities about the assaults they were suffering, particularly the sexual aggression from church officials and older inmates in boys' institutions.

“The management did not listen to or believe children when they complained of the activities of some of the men who had responsibility for their care,” the commission found. "At best, the abusers were moved, but nothing was done about the harm done to the child. At worst, the child was blamed and seen as corrupted by the sexual activity, and was punished severely."

The commission dismissed as implausible a central defense of the religious orders — that, in bygone days, people did not recognize the sexual abuse of a child as a criminal offense, but rather as a sin that required repentance.

In their testimony, religious orders typically cited this as the principal reason why sex-predator priests and brothers were sheltered within the system and moved to new posts where they could still maintain daily contact with children.

But the commission said its fact-finding — which included unearthing decades-old church files, chiefly stored in the Vatican, on scores of unreported abuse cases from Ireland's industrial schools — demonstrated that officials understood exactly what was at stake: their own reputations.

The church is cultivating a glorified breeding ground for pedophiles and protects them to save their own rotting reputations, while a nation of millions continues to lay their trust and children in their care.

Now to be fair this was during a time where pedophilia in the church had not really reared its sick ugly head in the news, but I honestly don't think the church has reformed its way and still continues to think putting wolves in with a flock of sheep is a good idea. :mad:

A lot of these abuse victims are going to continue into the ranks of the church too and i bet anything repeat what had happened to them (obviously not all, but many pedophiles have had a history of child sexual abuse)

If anything the church should be selling out and removing pedophiles from their ranks, that would help their reputation and lessen the problem, not sheltering them for christ sakes.

What do you think?
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:47PM
Hakoshen at 12:46PM, May 20, 2009
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I'm glad I'm Baptist.

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last edited on July 14, 2011 12:41PM
freefall_drift at 12:46PM, May 20, 2009
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In this modern age, becoming a priest didn't seem like a good career path. If they had kicked out all the bad priests, they would have been so understaffed, they would have had to have let in women, or married men or something horrible.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 12:31PM
Aurora Moon at 12:56PM, May 20, 2009
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Skullbie
The church is cultivating a glorified breeding ground for pedophiles and protects them to save their own rotting reputations, while a nation of millions continues to lay their trust and children in their care.

Now to be fair this was during a time where pedophilia in the church had not really reared its sick ugly head in the news, but I honestly don't think the church has reformed its way and still continues to think putting wolves in with a flock of sheep is a good idea. :mad:

A lot of these abuse victims are going to continue into the ranks of the church too and i bet anything repeat what had happened to them (obviously not all, but many pedophiles have had a history of child sexual abuse)

If anything the church should be selling out and removing pedophiles from their ranks, that would help their reputation and lessen the problem, not sheltering them for christ sakes.

What do you think?

I actually recently started an thread like this too, on another forum I went to…

I agree that it's pretty damn sickening. The priests who were so self-absorbed to the point where they worried more about their and the church's reputation more than what happened to the victims, they're just about as bad as the pedophiles. in fact I would even say that those types of priests gives the church an even worse image than what the pedophiles would had even done in the first place!

and as an result, the innocent priests who had nothing to do with this are also given a very bad image too… unfortunately.

And unfortunately, this isn't just isolated to the churches…. this problem has been going on in the boy scouts, and in the girl scouts too as well.

I said on the other forum:
I said,
You can see this same situation occur in other simlar organizations where they were meant to do good, not molest kids.
Take Boy scouts, for instance. they too have been accused of covering up things much like the Catholic church.

Boy Scout files show a pattern of cover-up and failure to report to authorities verified cases of sexual abuse by scoutmasters and a lack of warning to local troop leaders, parents and Scouts.

http://www.kosnoff.com/PracticeAreas/The-Boy-Scouts-of.asp
For 80 years, the Boy Scouts of America has been aware that its organization attracts many pedophiles wanting to be scoutmasters. The BSA has kept thousands of confidential internal files about incidents of scoutmaster child sexual abuse, but instead of turning these sexual predators in to the authorities, they quietly dismissed them from scouting. At the Law Offices of Timothy D. Kosnoff, we are dedicated to protecting the victims of sexual abuse while using the legal system to prevent future abuse.

Analysis of the internal files reveals that the Boy Scouts have been dismissing scoutmasters for sexual abuse at the rate of one every three days for the past 50 years. Because there is a higher risk that a boy will suffer sexual abuse if he joins the Boy Scouts, it is time that the BSA told the truth to parents and scouts about the size of the problem and the unique characteristics of scouting that make it particularly vulnerable to infiltration by pedophiles. It's time the BSA appropriately educated scouts and parents in how to recognize, resist, and report scoutmaster abuse. The BSA has got to stop covering up its problem.

It's been relatively recent that the boy scouts of America finally got around to training both parents, scoutmasters AND the kids themselves to keep an eye out for any abuse, to report abuse and how to resist abuse.

But you see… just like the Catholic church– they tried to Minimize the problem, and tried to keep this out of the public eye by trying to do the investigations themselves instead of letting the police do that. and all that did was cause more harm than good.

you see… When an organization investigates itself to make sure there are no abuse within the ranks… it tends to be biased.
After all, you'll have people going: “This person worked alongside me for more than __ years! He's done so much good, blah blah blah…. HOW could he be the evil person that those victims say he is??”

it's akin to love being blind– you form friendships and bonds with people within the organization… and if you've been around those same people for years then clearly they will have built up some sort of trust with you. That them makes it easier for the same people to pull the wool over your eye, so to speak.

That's why they should had reported everything to the police from the start and had them investigate things. After all, an person outside the organization tends to be more unbiased. :P

And, this isn't just only in male-oriented careers. there's been the same sort of reports in the girl scouts and other female-based organizations concerning kids, caused by female pedophiles too. Just like the male counterpart, girl scouts also face an higher risk of being sexually molested by female pedophiles who were looking to work with the little girls. And just like with the boy scouts, they don't bring this to the public eye at all and instead choose to quietly dismiss the said sex offenders, and allow them to walk free.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:10AM
kyupol at 2:04PM, May 20, 2009
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Yes there's pedophiles in the Catholic Church.

Yes the highest levels are possibly corrupted by either the illuminati or the devil or the reptoids or what have you.

Because the most obvious part being, that the pope is wearing a hat that is about the worship of Dagon.
http://images.google.ca/images?hl=en&um=1&sa=1&q=dagon+hat&aq=f&oq=



However, that doesn't take away the fact that there are good people within the system.

I myself have spoken to a number of these priests and organizers for charitable causes (often privately in where I'm absolutely sure that I'm the only one who can hear their statements).

Yes they really do believe in feeding the hungry, helping abused women, etc. Yes they really do go out of their way and spend money just so they can do their good deeds.

That is why I don't think its right to completely write off the catholics as totally evil.


In this modern age, becoming a priest didn't seem like a good career path. If they had kicked out all the bad priests, they would have been so understaffed, they would have had to have let in women, or married men or something horrible.

If you are a married man:
- Where would you go? To the sick, dying man 3 hours away who needs the last rites, or to your wife's wedding anniversary? Its a difficult decision to make.
- When confronting a demonic entity, your WIFE AND KIDS only provide a target for the demon to capitalize on.


As for women, I'm not too sure why the Catholic Church banned them from being priests. I've nothing against them becoming priests. As long as they can COMPETENTLY fulfill their duties and not be made priests because of gender quotas or something.

NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:26PM
isukun at 3:22PM, May 20, 2009
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The title is a bit misleading here. It isn't the religion that shelters these people, but the political institution behind the Catholic church. In fact, very little of this has anything to do with the actual religion. I doubt they're holding masses claiming God says to rape children. I also think shunning them from the order is a bad idea, as some may be using the church as an attempt to resist such urges. I don't think the church should shelter those who are guilty, but I don't think they should be locking out those who aren't guilty of any offense, either.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:04PM
El Cid at 3:48PM, May 20, 2009
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Agree with Isu. This isn't about religion; it's the institution, and cronyism. You could make the same case against the Boy Scouts.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:20PM
Orin J Master at 11:08PM, May 20, 2009
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the religious organization shelters them to protect its reputation because their whole basis is that they're moral. so of course the more the put it off the hard it became to clap the childfuckers in irons.

as a result the whole religion suffers because hey, “there were a bunch of priests raping children and their churches did nothing!”

i actively dislike christianity (and all its sub-sects, even if they don't think they are) but man, that is some STRONG bias in that report even before the bolding the OP added in there. does that book they read from have a section saying what to do to a priest that does things like this?
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:22PM
freefall_drift at 10:45AM, May 21, 2009
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However, that doesn't take away the fact that there are good people within the system.
I myself have spoken to a number of these priests and organizers for charitable causes (often privately in where I'm absolutely sure that I'm the only one who can hear their statements).
Yes they really do believe in feeding the hungry, helping abused women, etc. Yes they really do go out of their way and spend money just so they can do their good deeds.
That is why I don't think its right to completely write off the catholics as totally evil.
I suppose we could just chalk it up as the price of doing business. So we sacrifice a few kids, it's for the greater good. Look how many we helped

There some very positive aspects to religion and even church orgs, but this is not one of them.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 12:31PM
Puff_Of_Smoke at 2:55PM, May 21, 2009
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I'm pretty sure the church I go to here in Trenton, if they found this out, would order for the incarceration possibly the execution, we have Jehovah's witnesses here, of the perpetrators. Not to mention the large angry mob that would form from us alone.*

But y'know, Trenton, Ontario is completely seperated from the world, apperently. Everything that happens here is pretty much the opposite of the outside world.

I hate small towns.

*the rest of the people actually don't seem to care much.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 2:56PM
Jonko at 9:38AM, May 24, 2009
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My view on this is that most humans just can't live with out any type of sexual activity. I feel like the lack of sexual fulfillment can kind of get to your head, and lead to negative results like this. It's really unfortunate that the victims of this have to be young children.

At the same time, I really have nothing against religion. Like kyupol says, they do many positive things in our society. I guess the institution just has to reform itself a little to prevent things like this.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:10PM
ozoneocean at 6:26AM, May 25, 2009
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isukun
The title is a bit misleading here. It isn't the religion that shelters these people, but the political institution behind the Catholic church.
This is sort of right… Any big institution behaves this way. The whole topic is pretty silly really Skulbie.
Sexual abuse within MANY institutions follows exactly this pattern. I'm rather surprised that more people simply aren't aware of all the inquests into foster care, orphanages, state care for kids, care in asylums and juvenile detention centres etc. I can think of many countries that have had massive court cases about such things, It's always systemic and state wide.

The fact that this is such a general problem and always has been doesn't make the Catholic example any the less worse, of course, but it is extremely interesting that there is such a laser focus on that one example and such complete general ignorance about the real problem.

The unfortunate fact is that you could have a pogrom against the entire catholic church, succeed where Luther, Elizabeth the first, and Oliver Cromwell failed, wipe it out, and you wouldn't even touch the problem of institutional child abuse.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:34PM
korosu at 11:03AM, May 28, 2009
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Hakoshen
I'm glad I'm Baptist.
*fist bump* Yeah, me too.

And somebody will probably hate me for saying that.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:21PM
Orin J Master at 11:36AM, May 28, 2009
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Hakoshen
I'm glad I'm Baptist.
*fist bump* Yeah, me too.

And somebody will probably hate me for saying that.

just so you know, i hate you for typing “*fistbump*” unsarcasticly.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:22PM
kyupol at 8:50PM, May 28, 2009
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However, that doesn't take away the fact that there are good people within the system.
I myself have spoken to a number of these priests and organizers for charitable causes (often privately in where I'm absolutely sure that I'm the only one who can hear their statements).
Yes they really do believe in feeding the hungry, helping abused women, etc. Yes they really do go out of their way and spend money just so they can do their good deeds.
That is why I don't think its right to completely write off the catholics as totally evil.
I suppose we could just chalk it up as the price of doing business. So we sacrifice a few kids, it's for the greater good. Look how many we helped

There some very positive aspects to religion and even church orgs, but this is not one of them.


The Catholic Church is heavily compartmentalized.

Being an organized religion, it does tend to operate like a secret society in where the higher you are in the hierarchy, the more knowledge is given to you.

I went to an Opus Dei run school in high school. The curriculum is different from the other schools because things like Latin, Philosophy, Metaphysics, Moral Theology and Church Dogma were part of it.

Do you think the average “Catholic” school teaches that stuff? Maybe they do teach you about the life of the school's patron saint (like St. Francis, Candida Maria De Jesus, etc.) but thats about it.

Do you think the average Sunday Mass teaches that stuff? Hell no. All you hear in the Sunday Mass is different versions of “YOU MUST TRUST IN JESUS! JESUS LOVES YOU! HAVE FAITH IN GOD! GOD HAS A PURPOSE FOR YOU! THERE IS NO SALVATION OUTSIDE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH! um… maybe there is but the Catholic Church is the express ticket to heaven!!!” In short, its pretty mindless and you don't really learn much from the average Sunday priest sermon.

The bible isn't even studied much. Its all these repetitive rituals.

Questions such as “What exactly is an angel and a demon?” aren't even discussed.

Even issues such as abortion, euthanasia, suicide, homosexuality, what politician to support, are barely even covered. On the lowest level of the Catholic church, its pretty mindless boring stuff.

One time after the Sunday mass, I approached the priest to talk to him about demons. He just looked at me like I must be crazy. Come on! Demons?!? Of course things like angels and demons are part of the bible!!! I'd understand the look if I was talking to an atheist or something but from a PRIEST? WTF?!?

But why is this priest trying to cover up? It takes anywhere from 4-6 years in the seminary to become a priest (its like a college degree!!!). In that 4-6 years, God knows what kind of higher level knowledge is imparted to the priests that isn't imparted to the average Catholic.

You see what I'm getting at?

To those on the lower level, its about:
- being a good Catholic so you can go to heaven
- social life on a Sunday morning
- outreach programs to help the poor, sick, abused women, alcoholics, etc.
- sometimes going out to some pro life rally or World Youth Day.

To the mid level (like priests) its probably about
- being a good shepherd just like Jesus.
- administering the sacraments (baptism, confirmation, confession, annointing of the sick, matrimony, etc) to help them enter heaven.
- blessing the parishoner's house, car, and maybe exorcising demons here and there.
- organizing the outreach programs, rallies, etc. All for a good cause.

On the higher levels, there could be an organized conspiracy to control the world and Satanic occultic abuse stuff going on.
I'm not too sure about the details but all I know is these things:
- systematic child abuse of natives (source: Kevin Annet, former minister)
- the atrocities of the crusades, inquisition, Spanish conquistadores, etc.
- Pope called for a New World Order and blessed the U.N. flag. Huh? I thought he's anti-abortion and the UN supports abortion and population control!!!
- the Vatican is full of occultic symbols.

The point is, there is this highly compartmentalized system going on in the Catholic Church (as well as other organized religions).

Not all Catholics are part of the global conspiracy and the systematic child abuse.

I even talked to some lower level Opus Dei and Jesuit people. To them, its not really about a global conspiracy. Its just like a boy scout club. Thats all. Its just about meeting friends and chilling out. And maybe looking at some of the writings of Msgr Josemaria Escriva. Thats all there is.

Satan is no idiot. If he wants the spiritual destruction of humanity, part of his strategy is the infiltration of the Church. Do things like make these sex abuse scandals come out so that people will be turned away from spirituality.

Being an advanced spiritual being, of course he is aware that in order to effectively reach the goal of total enslavement of humanity, there needs to be compartmentalization.

Everyone should only know what they need to know.
NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:26PM
bravo1102 at 9:55PM, May 28, 2009
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ozoneocean
The unfortunate fact is that you could have a pogrom against the entire catholic church, succeed where Luther, Elizabeth the first, and Oliver Cromwell failed, wipe it out, and you wouldn't even touch the problem of institutional child abuse.

I concur. In fact the quoted first article reads more like the anti-clerical literature from the quoted eras and the 19th Century USA than a modern news report. This behavior is throughout all human cultures. In some places it is even accepted and encouraged. To single out the Catholic church as the great haven of pedophilia is a little disingenuous.

Maybe the ancient Greeks were right about this one in encouraging pedophilia.(Probably not though, judging from what their neighbors thought about it)

Maybe we've gone too far in making sexual behavior such a taboo and that may only serve to encourage deviant behavior.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:33AM
Lord Shplane at 12:53PM, June 3, 2009
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Religion in general is sickening. But that's not the discussion I suppose.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:44PM
mishi_hime at 2:41PM, June 3, 2009
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bravo1102
Maybe we've gone too far in making sexual behavior such a taboo and that may only serve to encourage deviant behavior.


No. That may be the case for a bunch of teenagers and alcohol but adults should know how to control themselves. In fact we should make it more a taboo, because it is clearly wrong.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:04PM
Lord Shplane at 3:06PM, June 3, 2009
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bravo1102
Maybe we've gone too far in making sexual behavior such a taboo and that may only serve to encourage deviant behavior.


No. That may be the case for a bunch of teenagers and alcohol but adults should know how to control themselves. In fact we should make it more a taboo, because it is clearly wrong.

I think he was talking about how we demonize sex period. Pedophilia is quite obviously wrong and should stay taboo. Sex in and of itself is in in no way wrong, yet our society (Largely because of religious stupidity) puts such a negative light on it that it becomes a “bad” thing to do to have sex. This sort of leads to a downward spiral: if you're having sex, and that's bad, why not do something ELSE that's bad? Sex with kids? Sure. Kill someone and fuck their corpse? Sure. This is what blowing things out of proportion and unfairly labeling something as “Wrong” when it's a perfectly natural part of the human experience causes.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:44PM
bravo1102 at 8:47PM, June 3, 2009
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mishi_hime
bravo1102
Maybe we've gone too far in making sexual behavior such a taboo and that may only serve to encourage deviant behavior.


No. That may be the case for a bunch of teenagers and alcohol but adults should know how to control themselves. In fact we should make it more a taboo, because it is clearly wrong.

Lord Shplane is correct. I was referring to making nearly any kind of sexual behavior taboo as opposed to that between consenting adults. Periods of extreme puritanism are usually marked with incidents of absolute debauchery. The Victorian Era was a golden age for porn.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:33AM

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