Debate and Discussion

Private Healthcare vs Public Healthcare.
Product Placement at 10:30AM, Sept. 1, 2009
(online)
posts: 7,078
joined: 10-18-2007
Today there's a big talk in the states about the Health Insurance Reform that's causing allot of heated debates. Just recently I saw this interesting video where Vise President Biden asks the public to do their own research on the matter and post their own response.



I'm curious to know about the opinion of other DD users around here. Where do you stand in the matter do you think that Private health care is corrupt and immoral or do you consider Public health care to be a step towards communism? Is there perhaps some sort of middle way?

Where I live we use public health care and the concept of Private health care is practically considered to be a breach in human rights. We simply don't understand how such a system can be allowed to exist. The whole idea that a person is denied treatments because they couldn't afford expensive subscription from private insurance companies, in addition to those stories heard where these same companies deny requests for treatments to people that are subscribers to them to be appalling. Sure I may sound biased since I live in a country with a different system but I know that I would rather live in a place where my taxes are a bit higher and I'm guarantied medical treatments instead of needing to pay third of my salary to some company that starts to look for loopholes so that they can deny me treatments if I ever become sick.
Those were my two cents.
If you have any other questions, please deposit a quarter.
This space for rent.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:51PM
TheFlyingGreenMonkey at 1:31PM, Sept. 1, 2009
(online)
posts: 3,830
joined: 12-19-2008
Okay I favor the Public option. I don't like the bill in congress or senate right now though. I'd rather just copy a country like Iceland/Canada who is already happy with there healthcare. Sadly I know that day may never come cause we have people that are agianst such actions. “America will become Canada!” They scream. Whats so bad about that? They were the least hit during our dip in the markets.

I'm a bit biased myself. I'm uninsured. My mom was unisured. We couldn't afford dentist for both of us, or trips to the doctors. So she always gave them up for me. I've had to watch my mom's teeth slowly rot until there is barly anything there. Nearly 46 million Americans are uninsured and our government officals argue if our healthcare is bad or not. I think some people are getting some pocket change by some insurance companies.

What I don't like are these rumors. Death Squads for one thing. Must rumors came from Betsy McCaughey and a party jumped on them without looking in on it themselfs.

last edited on July 14, 2011 4:17PM
Product Placement at 5:23PM, Sept. 1, 2009
(online)
posts: 7,078
joined: 10-18-2007
So as far as I understand the reform, it will essentially run all the current insurance companies out of business and its employees will be slowly integrated into the medicare system that will take its place, right?

Now I wont say that the Icelandic health care system is perfect and that nobody dares to complain about it but it's definitely considered to be better alternative than this private system. Our hospitals are also state run and the national university has a medical wing that ties with the national hospital (the oldest hospital in the country).

Funny you should mention that dentist story because dentistry is NOT covered in the Icelandic public health care. The only coverage is a partial coverage where 50% of the dentist cost is payed for minors. The parents have to fork over the rest of the cash. Many complain about this and want dentistry to be integrated into the national health care. The union of dentist is resisting that since it would mean that they can't set their own price anymore.

Which is what private health care supporters argue about. When you're part of a national system, the government can gain more control over the cost. This is of course much more beneficial to the people while it makes medical practice a less desirable trait, what with the lowered salaries.

So is there someone around that doesn't want America to adopt this health care reform?
Those were my two cents.
If you have any other questions, please deposit a quarter.
This space for rent.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:51PM
qqq at 5:56PM, Sept. 1, 2009
(offline)
posts: 122
joined: 8-10-2009
Accordingly this source: http://www.iom.edu/?id=17848

All developed nations except the US have universal health care.

Oh and by the way, that you don't get your health care if you can't afford it is as much a misunderstanding as the supposed ‘death panels’, you get it, you just end up in so much debt afterwards that you have to about sell your daughter into sexual slavery (Allowed by the bible's code of ethics), creating interesting situations where some one is brought to the hospital unconscious and thus has a doctor decided if that person needs surgery (you can opt to not take it I believe if you are conscious, but euthanasia then again is EVIL), so effectively a doctor can create a customer, and then apparently you have to pay it and the argument of ‘I was unconscious, I never requaested it.’ isn't valid in court.

What was so utterly stupid though was that US Newspaper that said that Stephen Hawking, if he lived in England, would never have survived until this day because of these supposed ‘death panels’, that don't even exist. Christ, how can a Newspaper A: Not know that Stephen Hawking lives in England and has done so his entire ill life and B: If they don't know, don't bother to check and just assume he's American or some thing?
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:57PM
Product Placement at 6:12PM, Sept. 1, 2009
(online)
posts: 7,078
joined: 10-18-2007
qqq
What was so utterly stupid though was that US Newspaper that said that Stephen Hawking, if he lived in England, would never have survived until this day because of these supposed ‘death panels’, that don't even exist. Christ, how can a Newspaper A: Not know that Stephen Hawking lives in England and has done so his entire ill life and B: If they don't know, don't bother to check and just assume he's American or some thing?
Sheesh. That story is almost too dumb to be true but I have to believe it for the sake of the hilarity.
Those were my two cents.
If you have any other questions, please deposit a quarter.
This space for rent.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:51PM
TheFlyingGreenMonkey at 10:40PM, Sept. 1, 2009
(online)
posts: 3,830
joined: 12-19-2008
Product Placement
Funny you should mention that dentist story because dentistry is NOT covered in the Icelandic public health care. The only coverage is a partial coverage where 50% of the dentist cost is payed for minors. The parents have to fork over the rest of the cash. Many complain about this and want dentistry to be integrated into the national health care. The union of dentist is resisting that since it would mean that they can't set their own price anymore.

Hey I could of gone on and on about doctor trips, injuries, etc. Main point we get hurt/sick can't afford both of us to go so I go and mom suffers. For some reason we always get hurt/sick around the same time.

I don't know about the running the other insurance companies out of business. I have heard it will make current companies not be able to get away with some of the crap they are doing now. I don't know this for sure it might just be a rumor.

I do know that just making the system more efficient won't pay for it. We'll going to have to raise taxes.

last edited on July 14, 2011 4:17PM
isukun at 11:21PM, Sept. 1, 2009
(online)
posts: 2,481
joined: 9-28-2006
Well, I know I don't have health insurance right now because of the BS scams the providers pull. I was going to get a cheap Blue Cross Blue Shield plan when I was between jobs, but I didn' have the money to put down on the more expensive plans. They wouldn't approve me for the cheaper plans, though, despite not having any previous health conditions (I've never even broken a bone or had anything worse than the flu). My only choice was to get a plan that cost three times as much, so I just said “screw you” and went without. How is it fair that you can't opt for the minimal coverage when you're UNEMPLOYED?

All I wanted was a freaking physical, not open heart surgery.

Totally off topic, but I find it funny that the ad for smokeybear.com is up on the page telling me only I can prevent wildfires when we have them raging just 12 or so miles from my place. I think I might hit Glendale tomorrow to check it out.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:04PM
BffSatan at 12:06AM, Sept. 2, 2009
(online)
posts: 1,478
joined: 3-2-2008
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:21AM
TheFlyingGreenMonkey at 2:19AM, Sept. 2, 2009
(online)
posts: 3,830
joined: 12-19-2008
Awesome Bff :D

last edited on July 14, 2011 4:17PM
qqq at 2:36AM, Sept. 2, 2009
(offline)
posts: 122
joined: 8-10-2009
Product Placement
qqq
What was so utterly stupid though was that US Newspaper that said that Stephen Hawking, if he lived in England, would never have survived until this day because of these supposed ‘death panels’, that don't even exist. Christ, how can a Newspaper A: Not know that Stephen Hawking lives in England and has done so his entire ill life and B: If they don't know, don't bother to check and just assume he's American or some thing?
Sheesh. That story is almost too dumb to be true but I have to believe it for the sake of the hilarity.
http://www.google.com/search?q=Newspaper+stephen+hawking+death+panel

Google seems to know of it.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:57PM
Product Placement at 5:03AM, Sept. 2, 2009
(online)
posts: 7,078
joined: 10-18-2007
Oh wow… and guess who it was that started that rumor?

Sarah Palin.

US healthcare debate takes ugly turn.

Stephen Hawking likes his “Death Panel” Health Care just fine, thanks.

The Icelandic system is not 100% free though. Basically, if you need to go on a checkup or have a standard doctors appointment of some sort, the cost of the appointment is around $15-20. Requesting an appointment with a surgeon to take care of a trivial thing like an ingrown toenail, suspicious looking mole or hemorrhoids would cost around $50. This is to prevent that the system bleeds out via thousand paper cuts. When you finally do have a mayor incident like terminal cancer, car crash, heart attack and similar, everything is on the house. The rule of thumb is that you pay if you can walk out of the hospital the same day you walked in but it's free if you need to stay overnight. Additionally, if you're having a particularly bad year, where you're going again and again to the hospital, to have various bumps, burns and bruises treated, you'll eventually get a discount card which will lover all future medical bill by 50% for the rest of the year. I think the limit is $200 or more accumulated in a single year.

Edit: This is turning less and less into a debate and more into “all hail public health care” thread.

Maybe we should move it to general discussion.
Those were my two cents.
If you have any other questions, please deposit a quarter.
This space for rent.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:51PM
qqq at 6:06AM, Sept. 2, 2009
(offline)
posts: 122
joined: 8-10-2009
We could make it a Bash Palin thread.

But seriously, how can some thing come in a newspaper that assumes that Stephen Hawking is not British, there has to be some one in the fact checking process at some point that either knows this or is willing to check it just to be safe?

Populus dixit, populo dixit, populum dixit…
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:57PM
Hawk at 9:30AM, Sept. 2, 2009
(online)
posts: 2,760
joined: 1-2-2006
Here's something that should hopefully provide a discussion point and possibly answer a question of mine… In a health care system where tax dollars pay for universal health care, what is the situation regarding treatment of people with self-inflicted ailments like smoking and obesity? Do these people get the same health care rights as those who are doing their best to stay healthy?
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:46PM
qqq at 9:36AM, Sept. 2, 2009
(offline)
posts: 122
joined: 8-10-2009
They do here, they simply have to pay more taxes, ahahah. Smoking that is.

I find it reasonable, you have to pay more road taxes here if your car is heavier too.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:57PM
Product Placement at 9:42AM, Sept. 2, 2009
(online)
posts: 7,078
joined: 10-18-2007
Where I live, VAT taxes are implied on products like food, alcohol, cigarettes and other consumer good. If the person is eating more then others, smoking or drinking lots and lots of alcohol, then he's paying more taxes then others at the same time.

A person with lung cancer, caused by smoking gets the same treatments as other cancer patients. Same applies with hereditary heart deceases vs obesity related heart conditions.
Those were my two cents.
If you have any other questions, please deposit a quarter.
This space for rent.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:51PM
qqq at 9:49AM, Sept. 2, 2009
(offline)
posts: 122
joined: 8-10-2009
Product Placement
Where I live, VAT taxes are implied on products like food, alcohol, cigarettes and other consumer good. If the person is eating more then others, smoking or drinking lots and lots of alcohol, then he's paying more taxes then others at the same time.

A person with lung cancer, caused by smoking gets the same treatments as other cancer patients. Same applies with hereditary heart deceases vs obesity related heart conditions.
I like this system.

The Dutch system is partly privatized, the idea is that one is compulsory to take an insurance and can pick a company oneself and if one can't pay for it the government does, thus it's transparent exactly what part of the ‘taxes’ goes to insurance, they are also not self-sufficient usually and subsidized and don't have that much free play.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:57PM
TheFlyingGreenMonkey at 2:35PM, Sept. 2, 2009
(online)
posts: 3,830
joined: 12-19-2008
Product Placement
Where I live, VAT taxes are implied on products like food, alcohol, cigarettes and other consumer good. If the person is eating more then others, smoking or drinking lots and lots of alcohol, then he's paying more taxes then others at the same time.

A person with lung cancer, caused by smoking gets the same treatments as other cancer patients. Same applies with hereditary heart deceases vs obesity related heart conditions.

Amazing. Its so simply O.O *awe*

Product Placement
The Icelandic system is not 100% free though. Basically, if you need to go on a checkup or have a standard doctors appointment of some sort, the cost of the appointment is around $15-20. Requesting an appointment with a surgeon to take care of a trivial thing like an ingrown toenail, suspicious looking mole or hemorrhoids would cost around $50. This is to prevent that the system bleeds out via thousand paper cuts. When you finally do have a mayor incident like terminal cancer, car crash, heart attack and similar, everything is on the house. The rule of thumb is that you pay if you can walk out of the hospital the same day you walked in but it's free if you need to stay overnight. Additionally, if you're having a particularly bad year, where you're going again and again to the hospital, to have various bumps, burns and bruises treated, you'll eventually get a discount card which will lover all future medical bill by 50% for the rest of the year. I think the limit is $200 or more accumulated in a single year.
I've had two ingrown toenails for years now. They hurt like hell but we can't afford to fix them. This makes me want to become an Icelander. I mean awesome health care and you guys are one of the biggest green energy countries in the world, right?

I've been curious how did other countries get their healthcare? How did it come about?




last edited on July 14, 2011 4:17PM
Product Placement at 3:54PM, Sept. 2, 2009
(online)
posts: 7,078
joined: 10-18-2007
TheFlyingGreenMonkey
I've been curious how did other countries get their healthcare? How did it come about?
Well in England, NHS was founded in 1948, so that's been around for 60 years. The Icelandic national health care was established in 1970 and follows what is called the Nordic model. I don't know who started this form of health care but I'm sure similar systems have existed in the past.

As much as I love to praise the land where I live, I won't claim it's perfect and I certainly won't make any pompous claims that USA has to adopt my way or the highway.

People regularly complain about the VAT tax on food. Naturally it means it's more expensive to eat. VAT tax on food products is 7% meaning that all food is 7% more expensive then it otherwise would be. VAT tax on other products can go all the way up to 24,5% (for example clothing).

Can somebody else provide us with a detailed explanation about their health care system?
TheFlyingGreenMonkey
You guys are one of the biggest green energy countries in the world, right?
Most of our electricity is Hydro-electric or Geothermal. Thus our CO2 release is negligible in that regard. However, do to the fact that we have such a small population, low person per car ratio and allot of aluminum plants that are taking advantage of our low electricity cost, our CO2 release per capita is quite high. There are some ideas around to build facilities that collects the CO2 from the aluminum plants and convert it into ethanol to lower our dependency for foreign bought oil and many studies have been done on hydrogen engines and electric cars as of late. There's this lofty goal floating around to have more electric cars in the country then combustion engine vehicles by 2013 but I don't think that they'll manage to pull that one off. I won't say more on the matter since I don't want to derail my own thread.
Those were my two cents.
If you have any other questions, please deposit a quarter.
This space for rent.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:51PM
kyupol at 4:05PM, Sept. 2, 2009
(offline)
posts: 3,713
joined: 1-12-2006
everything government touches turns to shit.

Public healthcare is such a failure that even mainline doctors prescribe private healthcare…
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=fe42e2be-077a-4193-a7c0-d6fc2e242269&k=12821

NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:26PM
Product Placement at 6:58PM, Sept. 2, 2009
(online)
posts: 7,078
joined: 10-18-2007
kyupol
everything government touches turns to shit.
That depends largely on the competence of the government in question.

The article that you post points out that long waiting lists are the largest problem that the Public Health care in Canada is facing. Well if we look at the fact that there are only 2 doctors and 8 nurses per 1000 people in that country then there's no wonder why they're having long cues forming. It would make sense for some people to suggest outsourcing their patients in such scenarios.

Not long ago, highly risky operations like heart transplants and brain surgery needed to be performed in foreign countries. The patient was transported to the country in question, shortly before the operation and everything would be paid by the government. Today we have better equipment and more skilled surgeons and can perform most of those operations at home.

And how is the privatized system better? The lines are forming outside the public hospitals because those hospitals wont refuse anyone. If the third of the population can't afford go go and visit the doctor while the rich and the elite can pay to get ahead, there's no wonder that the there are no lines waiting outside those hospitals. So tell me kyupol, since you're our poster child of anti-elitist propaganda, how is that fair?
Those were my two cents.
If you have any other questions, please deposit a quarter.
This space for rent.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:51PM
ozoneocean at 8:15PM, Sept. 2, 2009
(online)
posts: 25,055
joined: 1-2-2004
Can we PLEASE not have “Vs” debates? Please?

Australia's health system is a mix of public and private. Because of the public option though the private option here is many magnitudes cheaper than it is in the United States.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:35PM
Product Placement at 8:23PM, Sept. 2, 2009
(online)
posts: 7,078
joined: 10-18-2007
Sigh… If we can't have Vs debates then there's no wonder why this category is practically dead.

I want people to list what's so great about the Private system. All I've ever heard via other people, most movies and Micheal Moore documentaries is that Private health care is the embodiment of evil.

Since so many people are fighting against the Health Care reform in the States, I was wondering if somebody could help shed some light on the matter.
Those were my two cents.
If you have any other questions, please deposit a quarter.
This space for rent.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:51PM
qqq at 5:14AM, Sept. 3, 2009
(offline)
posts: 122
joined: 8-10-2009
Product Placement
Sigh… If we can't have Vs debates then there's no wonder why this category is practically dead.

I want people to list what's so great about the Private system. All I've ever heard via other people, most movies and Micheal Moore documentaries is that Private health care is the embodiment of evil.

Since so many people are fighting against the Health Care reform in the States, I was wondering if somebody could help shed some light on the matter.
I think Michael Moore is able to insinuate that Bush is actually a reptillian plant clone at some point. The guy's nasty propaganda.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:57PM
Product Placement at 11:20AM, Sept. 3, 2009
(online)
posts: 7,078
joined: 10-18-2007
The Micheal Moore comment was just a joke of mine to point out that my views on the public system may be biased since all I've ever heard of it is bad stuff.

Take this documentary for example. It's a hypothetical documentary discussing how medicine can be like in the future. One of the ideas it plays with is that the medical care is completely privatized. In it the main character gets denied service because he was trying to cheat on the system (he drank the night before and hid that fact before he had his accident). Now some of the stuff that they're proposing is kinda far out there but it's easy to understand why my opinion on private care is this negative if this is all I ever hear about it.

Second example. I had a father in law that was an US accident lawyer. Basically, his full time job was to sue insurance companies that refused to pay for the medical care that their customers were entitled to get. As far as I understand, it's almost a standard for a person that has an accident to get a lawyer like that, in case the insurance company goes back on their words. Now, what kind of fucked up system is that?
Those were my two cents.
If you have any other questions, please deposit a quarter.
This space for rent.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:51PM
qqq at 12:43PM, Sept. 3, 2009
(offline)
posts: 122
joined: 8-10-2009
Product Placement
The Micheal Moore comment was just a joke of mine to point out that my views on the public system may be biased since all I've ever heard of it is bad stuff.

Take this documentary for example. It's a hypothetical documentary discussing how medicine can be like in the future. One of the ideas it plays with is that the medical care is completely privatized. In it the main character gets denied service because he was trying to cheat on the system (he drank the night before and hid that fact before he had his accident). Now some of the stuff that they're proposing is kinda far out there but it's easy to understand why my opinion on private care is this negative if this is all I ever hear about it.

Second example. I had a father in law that was an US accident lawyer. Basically, his full time job was to sue insurance companies that refused to pay for the medical care that their customers were entitled to get. As far as I understand, it's almost a standard for a person that has an accident to get a lawyer like that, in case the insurance company goes back on their words. Now, what kind of fucked up system is that?
Well, to understand, privatization of it has its rationales, it's based on the ideas that competition will drive insurance companies to deliver the best, build a good name, et cetera. A government can afford more to lax on this was the idea.

However, free market doesn't work any more as envisioned, for a good 80 years not an more. The point was originally that producers had to offer consumers the best for the lowest price to have a competitive edge to sell. Now, it's based on having not the best product, but the best marketing campaign to sell. It's about exploiting the general ignorance of customers and making them believe you have the best while you really don't and give them the crappiest and cheapest-to produce in return. Most people that buy things have no technical knowledge about the things they buy so it's easy. Microsoft and Apple are probably the current kings of this technique, most things of Microsoft are utter crap but they've made you dependent of it due to their crippling of compatibility tactics. Apple's products are also crap but they like to make you believe they do things that are revolutionary but actually already exist for years but either were never mass produced because they are absurd useless novelties or were mass produced and cheaper but simply put to people that need them and not to people that for no reason like to have a 1 cm thick notebook with one USB port that has no functionality and performance.

Insurance companies do the same, the customer is not the king, not even the fellow commoner, he is the enemy that must be conquered and enslaved.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:57PM
manicmerganser at 9:10PM, Sept. 4, 2009
(offline)
posts: 54
joined: 8-10-2009
All I gotta say is that as much as the goverment fucks things up, I'd rather have my health plan with them than in the hands of the business community.
www.alannispoliticalcart00ns.blogspot.com
http://1-art-1.deviantart.com/
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
carolyn at 2:57PM, Sept. 8, 2009
(online)
posts: 42
joined: 1-27-2009
We just spent $600.00 to bring my husband to urgent care this month… So we're broke now. Needless to say I support the public health iniciative. Until it's a reality we're looking for a doctor in Tijuana (Mexico) as it's about 40 minutes from here. I heard an office visit's about $40 USD there. Hmmm…We should look for a dentist as well….
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:36AM
carolyn at 3:13PM, Sept. 8, 2009
(online)
posts: 42
joined: 1-27-2009
By the way there is nothing great about the private health care system… If you work for a large company that offers a group health plan you may be okay. If you are working for a small company or are self employed you are screwed. Insurance rates go up 30% a quarter (we stopped paying for insurance when it hit $800.00 a month for my family… that was years ago, then we fled to Argentina). If you develop a chronic condition, your insurance spikes or drops you. Then no other company will cover you. Thankfully the Argentines saved my life last year. I had a terribly close call and would have died in the States.

Now we are back for family reasons, but at least we are close to Mexico….
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:36AM
Shiba Naganori at 11:38PM, Sept. 8, 2009
(online)
posts: 22
joined: 12-1-2008
To be the opposition, the Public Healthcare plan, if it doesn't coexist with Private Healthcare, it's going to be one more thing under the government control…given the recession, and the current state of the Post Office, is that really something you want?

Oh wow… and guess who it was that started that rumor?

Sarah Palin

The Death Panels issue was started long before Palin said anything, in fact, I could swear that it was before she resigned too.

The article earlier that was laughed about was dated July 31st 2009
http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2009/aug/10/palin-death-panel-remark-sets-truth-o-meter-fire/
This article states that Palin made the remarks on August 7th 2009. Although I wonder why I even bother researching both sides of the argument, since they're both wastelands of hypocritsy.

EDIT: Reinforced by the New York Times
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/14/health/policy/14panel.html?_r=1
Palin only coined the term, while the idea has been around since the mid-90s about Public Healthcare.

We could make it a Bash Palin thread.

Or a “Beat the Dead Horse” thread, ‘cause that’s just about the same thing.

Sheesh. That story is almost too dumb to be true but I have to believe it for the sake of the hilarity

Funny, I was watching a repeat of The Daily Show, and Jon Stewart just reacted to Obama's comparison of the competition between the Post Office and Private Postal Companies and the possible competition between Private Healthcare and Public Healthcare, which Obama had to end with a comment about the Post Office not doing too well.

Honestly, both sides of the argument put out such stupidity that it just makes you want to say “meh” to. I just don't see the government do anything good with public healthcare because they're only good for taking our money. I'd prefer that the Federal Government should get an audit and see what they're doing with the money, chances are that if they were, then they'll find such corruption to make Richard Nixon look like a saint.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:33PM
ozoneocean at 2:39AM, Sept. 9, 2009
(online)
posts: 25,055
joined: 1-2-2004
Shiba Naganori
then they'll find such corruption to make Richard Nixon look like a saint.
Most real corruption happens when private firms have to interact with government agencies. -When government agencies are forced to contract out for various services private firms will almost always use it as a chance to profiteer horrendously.
That's standard practice, especially in the U.S. :(
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:35PM

Forgot Password
©2011 WOWIO, Inc. All Rights Reserved