Debate and Discussion

Question about homosexuality and the psyche.
mlai at 4:26PM, July 14, 2008
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I was discussiong homosexuality vs the male/female psyche with someone. This person knows more homosexual ppl than me (actually I know none), so I'm not sure if I'm right. I'd like opinions on the matter.

I'm asked that, as a hetero male, if I love some hypothetical girl and feel that this girl is my soulmate, but this girl turns out to be actually a guy, would I have befriended and fallen in love with this guy in the 1st place?

Note, the question is not whether I would still love the girl-magically-turned-guy. The question is, if the girl was a guy to begin with, would I have befriended and then fallen in love with this guy from the beginning? Cuz he's supposed to be my soulmate n' all.

My opponent says if I meant the soulmate talk, then I would, because “it would be the same person just a tiny difference.” That “a gay man pretty much is a woman trapped in a mans body.”

I said no way. Not because I'm shallow, but because “I'm not as familiar with gay ppl as you, but I don't think it's just about the physical gender differences.
Men are different from women in all ways, physical, mental, and spiritual.” “It's not a tiny difference, that's what I'm trying to get at. It wouldn't be the same person at all.” “IMO, a gay man is a bonafide man who happens to like men.”
Because I do not interact with men the same way I would interact with women, the hypothetical guy in question would never have been my soulmate.

What's your take?

FIGHT current chapter: Filling In The Gaps
FIGHT_2 current chapter: Light Years of Gold
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:06PM
HippieVan at 5:23PM, July 14, 2008
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I would think no, not because it wasn't the same person, but because you're a straight male so it would be highly unlikely that you would suddenly change that for this one guy. It's possible that you would fall in love with them still, but it would probably only happen if you were friends to begin with. Even if you did feel like you might have feelings for this person, if you were uncomfortable with being in a relationship with a male you would probably push the feelings back anyways.

But then, I don't believe in soulmates, so that could have a lot of effect on the answer.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 12:48PM
Custard Trout at 5:34PM, July 14, 2008
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mlai
That “a gay man pretty much is a woman trapped in a mans body.”

Your friends an idiot, especially if they actually believe this.

I don't think you would either, the mind has a lot more control then most people assume it does. If it thinks your ‘soulmate’ is female, then your body will as well, and will act accordingly. It's kind of like how you get hungry when you think about food.
Hey buddy, you should be a Russian Cosmonaut, and here's why.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:01PM
lba at 7:53PM, July 14, 2008
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Well, one of the questions I tell a lot of people to ask themselves when they tell me that they've found their soulmate is “If she/he were the opposite sex, would you still hang out with them as much?” If they can say yeah, then it's usually a pretty good indication that they happen to like enough of the person's personality that they're a decent match. But that doesn't mean that the relationship would end up the same if they were the same sex as you all along. Because if that were the case then the precondition of you being straight would probably exclude the possibility of falling for them. You could still become just as good of friends, but they'd be lacking at least one element that makes them attractive to you as a mate. So it stands to reason that things would probably progress no further than being good friends since you'd likely never think of them as a potential mate in the first place.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:29PM
Aurora Moon at 8:00PM, July 14, 2008
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I would have to agree… A gay man is definitely not a woman trapped in an man's body.

They're completely confusing Transgendered people with gay people. *shakes head*

That's about as ignorant as asking a gay man if he's taking on the “female role” in the bedroom… aka asking him if he's an bottom.

What, does an woman seriously always have to be the bottom? obviously those people have never heard of positions where the couple is making love on more equal terms, instead of the whole submissive/dominating positions, such as top and bottom.

Or when an gay person is actually married to his guy, asking them who's the “Wife” and who's the “Husband”. Now that's really bad. also with asking who had to be the “bride” at the wedding. Uh, the answer would be that both of them are Husbands, and nobody was a bride at the wedding.

I dislike it when people seem to always apply female and male roles to everything, even gay relationships. Those people obviously don't understand that there's so much more to the world than just female or male roles.

A gay man is definitely an MAN who just happened to like other men in that way. No mind or soul of a woman at all.

There's been cases of men who normally only went with women falling in love with a man… but the question is, were those people honestly %100 straight? Sometimes bisexual people think they're %100 straight or %100 gay just because they happened to prefer an certain gender over the other. but if they happened to fall in love with the same/opposite gender, then they're not really %100, are they?

I doubt that an man who were truly %100 straight would fall in love with an man, even if he made for a very convincing female. But that's just me.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:10AM
lba at 9:21PM, July 14, 2008
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Aurora Moon
There's been cases of men who normally only went with women falling in love with a man… but the question is, were those people honestly %100 straight? Sometimes bisexual people think they're %100 straight or %100 gay just because they happened to prefer an certain gender over the other. but if they happened to fall in love with the same/opposite gender, then they're not really %100, are they?

Though, that leads to the question, “is there really any such thing as bisexuality? or is it nothing more than a lack of caring?” A lot of people who claim to be bisexual show a very heavy preference for one sex or the other and have only dated that sex. Generally, when you tend to prefer one side more heavily, wouldn't it reach a point where it would be better to identify as being straight or gay? Also, a lot of people who claim to be bisexual, that I've met, just don't know what they're attracted to, or just want to experiment so they identify as bisexual when they may not be. Some just don't care about what sex the person they're with is and it's all about the sexual experience ( For the sake of the younger folks and the lack of an NSFW thread, I suggest the conversation steer away from that nature of things. ). It has less to do with being attracted to both sexes than to just being open for other various reasons.

Bisexuality, especially when you get into the modern movement of the younger generation towards it, becomes a very muddled and difficult topic. There are a lot of people who claim it doesn't exist because most people end up with one mate and hence end up either straight, gay or are just plain, for lack of a better term; slutty. Others claim that everyone is bisexual, just most have a heavy preference.

I do agree that gay men aren't women trapped in men's bodies. They might share feminine characteristics, but that's not the same as being female.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:29PM
Aurora Moon at 9:48PM, July 14, 2008
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I do believe that there are such a thing as bisexuality. I've met people who had actually no real preference nether way and were fine with dating both genders. In fact, I'm actually one of those people. But sometimes those same people will actually just date people of the opposite gender more often just simply because of the fact that it's more socially acceptable, and therefore easier to have without having to explain themselves to family, etc.

Although you do bring up an excellent point. There's been plenty of people who only wanted to experiment, etc. I believe that they don't realize that there's terms for people like them. such as “Bi-curious”.

Bi-curious people are basically people who are curious to see what it's like to be with the same sex, and would like to try it, etc. But they're not quite committed to ID-ing themselves as Straight or Gay considering that they'd have a lot to answer for down the road should they change. so they often find it easier to say that they're bisexual at the moment even though they're really not.

Then of course there's so many other sexual preferences. Such as Asexuality, Pansexuality, polysexuality, Etc.

Some people find pan-sexuality, Asexuality and many other types of sexuality difficult to understand as those aren't as well-known as straight and gay people are. so those same people often have to resort to labeling themselves with common terms that's familiar to everyone even though they're not quite like that.

Does that make sense?
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:10AM
VegaX at 3:52AM, July 15, 2008
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The whole “soulmate” thing is basically just fuzzy “hippie talk”, and i think you all know that. ;)

I got together with my girlfriend because i like her personality and because i am ATTRACTED to her. That whole “loving someone only for their personality and mind” is nice in theory but there got to be some kind of attraction for a relationship to work. And since I'm heterosexual i can never have those attractions for a man.





last edited on July 14, 2011 4:39PM
ozoneocean at 4:59AM, July 15, 2008
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Debate and discussion topic? ^^

I think in the 20thC (Or 21st) we're pretty hung up and ignorant about friendship and relationships, a lot more that people were supposed to be in the Victorian era. The thing is now, whenever you read a story or history now about people having friendships in the past, it's ALWAYS interpreted sexually.

I say that's ignorant because by that way of thinking, whenever one person expresses any sort of affection for another person, it's only now thought of in sexual terms. For example, whenever you read an old novel or an old history and it says one of the characters showed “great love” for another, it seems that has to be taken taken literally…

——————
Anyway, what I'm getting at is that people can have deep friendships with men or women, gay or straight without consummation or even any thoughts of that ever. You can have MUCH deeper friendships (or not) with people who are NOT your sexual partner, or wife or boyfriend or whatever, and there's nothing unusual, special or particularly remarkable about that.

So drop the “soul mate” thing, you can still be great friends with someone even if you don't want to have sex with them lol!

I see sexual attraction as a slightly different thing. No matter how friendly I am with someone, they have to be female for that to work on me.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:31PM
mlai at 5:28AM, July 15, 2008
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I didn't think this belonged in the debate thread because I didn't think there was anything to debate, at least on my end.

As for “soulmate”… I'm sorry I dropped that term in my original post, because it actually never came up in the original discussion which prompted this thread. I only added it as a sort of shortcut catch-all phrase, but it's a mistake because it's hallmarkiness distracts ppl from the real discussion.

So instead of the word “soulmate,” just replace it with the fact that I was being gauged on my opinion of emotional vs physical love. I think that was the main point. While the main reason I made this thread is because I personally don't think that the mind/soul of a woman can exist inside the body of a man.

Which also raises the issue of transgenderism, which I had neglected to consider earlier.

FIGHT current chapter: Filling In The Gaps
FIGHT_2 current chapter: Light Years of Gold
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:06PM
ozoneocean at 6:03AM, July 15, 2008
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Fair enough. But for me friendship is friendship. The sex of a mind and “soul” don't matter because I'm only going to be sexually attracted to females anyway. And even then that's only comparatively very few females- not too far out of my age range, not related to me etc. and that's before you even get to looks and similar tastes… lol!
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:31PM
Poke Alster at 7:37AM, July 15, 2008
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I wouldn't change to gay, i'd probably make up another reason to dump him-her, i'd still be friends with him-her just not a sexual relationship with him-her
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:46PM
bravo1102 at 12:02PM, July 17, 2008
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There are relationships that are a bond of love between two people of the same gender. That Band of Brothers thing is one example. Often a military man will never feel greater love/respect/etc. for the guy in the foxhole next to him than anyone else he will ever meet in his life including his spouse. That bond will last a lifetime even if decades seperate their next meeting.

Any man can find a “soulmate” (only yused for lack of another term) who is of the same gender but physical love will never be considered, but the two men will be closer than they could ever be with a woman. After all a woman is just a woman but a good cigar (with a (male) friend) is a smoke.

And of course there will be plenty of homo-erotic humor.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:33AM
Eirikr at 2:03PM, July 17, 2008
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Would I still love them if they turned out to be a different gender? No. Not because of any gay/straight feelings, just that I find it to be the sort of thing you really should bring up on a first date. I mean, if they're hiding that, what other skeletons have they got in their closet?
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:20PM
subcultured at 8:26PM, July 17, 2008
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IMO pretending to be a girl is a big lie.
my worst nightmare is a guy trying to get with guys by pretending to be women.

as for soulmate. it's you're own reality.
my soulmate has to be compatible with me mind and body.
two plugs don't make a socket. ^_^
J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:03PM
CoyoteLongshot at 12:16AM, July 18, 2008
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Way I see it, if “she” had been a guy the whole time and never told you, that's not a very soulmate-esque thing to do.

Though I do agree with ozone and the others. The desire for sex is just something programmed into our brains because we need to reproduce. Once you take that out of the equation, it makes the choice seem a lot simpler. I most certainly would have befriended this person in the first place if we really were compatible, even if it never went past the “being friends” stage, because something like that is just their personal choice, and as far as I'm concerned nothing that should really get in the way of forming a platonic bond with them. But, y'know, I think that if s/he's looking for a romantic relationship and keeps that kind of information from you, now that's something I'd be bothered by.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:47AM
mlai at 6:47AM, July 18, 2008
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@ Coyote:

Um… the question I posed is hypothetical. LOL honest. So whether or not deception is a good thing really doesn't matter here, because this is just a question wrapped in a “what if” situation.
=============================
=============================

The real question in my mind was whether or not a person's basic framework for thought and behavior could change, based on sexual identity and/or sexual orientation. At the time of the OP, I thought no. I thought a man who is homosexual, or transgender, would still think in ways that men do, in everyday life.

However, since then I've done some internet research, and it seems that the above things do have feminizing effects on the brain. It's complex; it's not an on-off switch, and it's only at certain areas of the brain. But there is a physical feminizing effect on the psyche.

I know that what I just said seems to regress into decades of homosexual stereotyping that gay awareness movements have tried to change. That of "omg gay men are so girly." But I'm only looking at animal studies, and that is what researchers have found.

FIGHT current chapter: Filling In The Gaps
FIGHT_2 current chapter: Light Years of Gold
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:06PM
subcultured at 8:16AM, July 18, 2008
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the appearance of a woman image can turn a guy on. thats why we have porn. but as soon a straight guy sees sausage on said woman, their balls shrink.

but as soon as abnormal things like this, it just confuses the hell out of our brain.

Thomas Beatie, the Bend, Oregon man making news as a “Pregnant Man” was born Tracy LaGondino, a woman, 34 years ago.
J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:03PM
ozoneocean at 10:24AM, July 18, 2008
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subcultured
but as soon as abnormal things … it just confuses the hell out of our brain.
Buck Angel ;)
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:31PM
Cthulhu at 8:27PM, July 18, 2008
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subcultured
Thomas Beatie, the Bend, Oregon man making news as a Pregnant Man was born Tracy LaGondino, a woman, 34 years ago.
That story annoys me. “He” has a vagina, how can “he” be considered a pregnant “man”? I just consider it to be a pregnant transvestite, which surely isn't the first of its kind.
ozoneocean
Buck Angel ;)
Godammit.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:59AM
bobhhh at 1:23PM, July 19, 2008
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Who you love shouldn't be over analyzed.

Love is a funny thing, as a rule it more often than not defies logic. Imposing a lot of arbitrary rules or analyses on it makes little sense. You will have as much success attempting to explain why someone loves cheesecake as you will why someone loves a person of one gender or another.

The only difference is that cheesecake is not frowned upon by self appointed moral bullies.
My name is Bob and I approved this signature.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:30AM
bobhhh at 1:35PM, July 19, 2008
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Cthulhu
subcultured
Thomas Beatie, the Bend, Oregon man making news as a Pregnant Man was born Tracy LaGondino, a woman, 34 years ago.
That story annoys me. “He” has a vagina, how can “he” be considered a pregnant “man”? I just consider it to be a pregnant transvestite, which surely isn't the first of its kind.
ozoneocean
Buck Angel ;)
Godammit.

My pal Sherilyn would beg to differ with you. She is a woman and yet still has her penis, a relic from her past life as a reluctant boy.

I'm sure you could argue that someone who has gotten a sexual reassignment operation is now a new gender. That seems instinctual, that if someone goes that far that they are correcting a mistake on a fundamental level.

But at the heart of it sexual gender identity is really how you wish yourself to be defined. I'm not going to begrudge my pal her self image just because she didn't want to wack off a pretty sensitive appendage, if anything I can truly relate to not wanting my dick surgically removed and certainly not simply to make someone else more comfortable with my sexual identity.

I will give you however the fact that the whole news story was a bit hyped up to appeal to the morbid shock factor: man has baby!!! But I doubt the sensationalistic manner in which the story was sold was directly the fault of Mr. Beatie.
My name is Bob and I approved this signature.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:30AM
Cthulhu at 6:32PM, July 19, 2008
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bobhhh
My pal Sherilyn would beg to differ with you. She is a woman and yet still has her penis, a relic from her past life as a reluctant boy.
Another word for gender is sex. If you have the sexual organ of a male, then you're a male.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:59AM
StaceyMontgomery at 7:26PM, July 19, 2008
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Cthulhu
Another word for gender is sex. If you have the sexual organ of a male, then you're a male.

Actually, it is now rather common practice in modern English usage to use the word ‘sex’ to refer to biological categories and ‘Gender’ to refer to cultural or social categories. So you may find that many people are using those words differently than you do, leading to some confusion.

And of course, many people think of these categories very differently than you do, which may cause even more confusion.

For myself, I am happy to let Bobhhh's friend be the expert on her life, as I hope you will let me be the expert on my life. I am so overwhelmed by my own journey that I find I lack the time (and wisdom) to tell other people who and what they are. I understand that people who have a lot of free time on their hands will try to tell other people who and what they are - but it does not sound like a very productive use of one's time, does it?
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:55PM
bravo1102 at 9:39AM, July 20, 2008
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A friend's wife has a master's degree in Human Sexuality and she's not sure how it all sorts out. Sometimes genes make mistakes, hormones are messed up and there are those that nature takes out of the gene pool by making confusing their gender preferences. This is one they're trying to sort out in various psychological and genetic studies and maybe by the 23rd Century they'll have it figured out, just in time for Star Trek.

In the meantime I keep up with the research and am quite confident and happy with my sexual identity (and work on some fiction dealing with the themes of human sexuality.)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:33AM
Hawk at 4:32PM, July 20, 2008
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I'll admit plain and simply, if my soul mate suddenly and magically turned into a man, I would have to demote my soul mate to “best friend”. If the sexual attraction isn't there, it has to be something different.

bravo1102
A friend's wife has a master's degree in Human Sexuality and she's not sure how it all sorts out. Sometimes genes make mistakes, hormones are messed up and there are those that nature takes out of the gene pool by making confusing their gender preferences. This is one they're trying to sort out in various psychological and genetic studies and maybe by the 23rd Century they'll have it figured out, just in time for Star Trek.

That's actually a pretty interesting explanation of it. I can imagine some people taking issue with the idea that of homosexuality being a genetic “mistake”, but I think those people need to come to grips with being a deviation from the norm, something we all are in some way or another.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:46PM
bobhhh at 1:07AM, July 21, 2008
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Cthulhu
bobhhh
My pal Sherilyn would beg to differ with you. She is a woman and yet still has her penis, a relic from her past life as a reluctant boy.
Another word for gender is sex. If you have the sexual organ of a male, then you're a male.

Very closed minded of you.

What does it harm you to let people decide their own identity? What do you lose by a TG person decding how far they want to go physically to find that identity?

Sherilyn is a woman in every way that counts, her penis is nature's, or god's if you will, mistake. Why should she lop it off just to satisfy some arcane and rigid rules for society to consider her female?
My name is Bob and I approved this signature.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:30AM
subcultured at 7:57PM, July 22, 2008
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your sex is what you were born as. no matter how much you changed it. like a person who had blond hair and changed it to red. does that make her a red head? no. she is naturally blond.

so those that had sex change to be a woman. are naturally male.
J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:03PM
StaceyMontgomery at 4:47AM, July 23, 2008
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I once met a guy who told me that no one born in another country can ever really be an American. What about people who become Americans, people who immigrate, i asked him.

They are just foreigners pretending to Americans, he said. He used the phrase “full blooded American” a lot, a phrase that meant nothing to me, but was important to him. He saw “Americanism” as a sort of biological truth. It meant a lot to him, like religion.

Honestly, I thought he was just a stupid bigot. But It would be fairer to say that he and I had very different world views, and I was glad that i did not live in his world - it would just be to cramped for me.


Of course, I would say that anyone with red hair is a “redhead.”


*edited to remove some rougher words. forgive me, I am not feeling so welcome here today, but it is the Debate and Discussion folder after all*
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:55PM
ozoneocean at 4:59AM, July 23, 2008
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You're TG? :)

Heh. Personally, I held those strict views about sex and gender when I was younger. But these days I'm more inclined to accept people as they present themselves or how they feel they want to be. it's hard to hold to silly strict views when you mix with those sorts of people when you're studying art, you know?

It's all very well to say “if you were born with a dick you're A, born with a vag you're B and that's how it is!” but when you actually meet and know that's people from day to day on life that seems just plain wrong a thing to do… Those are living, breathing people and who the F**k are YOU to tell them what they are?
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:31PM

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