Debate and Discussion

Religion
Atom Apple at 2:51PM, Feb. 22, 2007
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So seriously. How many of you people seriously believe in a religion because I seem to be the only one.
i will also like to know you the more
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:03AM
LIZARD_B1TE at 3:02PM, Feb. 22, 2007
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I believe in religion, but not organized religion.
I believe in personal belief systems, not silly rituals and whatnot.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:36PM
KomradeDave at 3:07PM, Feb. 22, 2007
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I am a modern Presbytarian with a Catholic wife. I have a deep love of the Lord. I do, however, believe in a more personal relationship with God than most religions offer. He knows me and I know Him, that's what really counts to me.
Handshakes and mustaches are the only ways to know how much you can truly trust a man.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:20PM
Aurora Moon at 4:52PM, Feb. 22, 2007
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LIZARD_B1TE
I believe in religion, but not organized religion.
I believe in personal belief systems, not silly rituals and whatnot.

I'm pretty much the same way.

I have my own beliefs, however I'm pretty much against organized religion.
Religion in itself when shared casually along people can be good, but organizations using those religions have done more harm than good!
Just take a good hard look at history as proof of that.

And nowadays even though the current events of the religion is less bloody than the history it holds, it still shows how much greedy and zealously political organized religion can be even in the present day.

I personally believe that the majority of Churches are just run by greedy people, due to my experience. how they'd always ASK for “donations” every church sermon, how they always take to the streets not only preaching, but asking for money aka panhandling…
do you know that they make up to 5 billion dollars a year in my area alone? and most of that doesn't even go to charities, nor does most of it go to the “up keep” of the church buildings like you would think them… no, it goes directly into the priests' and nuns' pockets, the people who runs the churches that is.
I find it suspicious that such people that was supposedly leading only simple lives in service to the lord, wanting nothing of the maternal world would actually want money so much that they would ask the mindless masses that attends their churches everyday for donations that they don't really need, and to go out panhandling on a regular basis. Up to the point where they're racking up such massive amounts of money.

and it's certianly not for taxes or bills, snice they're expemt from government taxes and bills. Despite the fact that gorvenment and church is supposed to be seperate, the government still favors them in that regards. gee, a sweet deal they got going on huh?
All they have to do is quote the mangled, poorly worded english translation of the bible, which doesn't even come close to the oringal text of the oringal bible…. and people just throw money at thier feet!

Greed….that's the only explanation.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:09AM
Atom Apple at 5:16PM, Feb. 22, 2007
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Indeed to you both.
i will also like to know you the more
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:03AM
reconjsh at 8:21PM, Feb. 22, 2007
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Someone
no, it goes directly into the priests' and nuns' pockets, the people who runs the churches that is.
I find it suspicious that such people that was supposedly leading only simple lives in service to the lord, wanting nothing of the maternal world would actually want money so much that they would ask the mindless masses that attends their churches everyday for donations that they don't really need, and to go out panhandling on a regular basis. Up to the point where they're racking up such massive amounts of money.

I can only speak for the catholic church.

Actually, nuns don't get paid except for basic living expenses… nuns have a vow of poverty. Odds are, if you've met a “nun”… she was actually a “sister”. Different things as far as the catholic church is concerned (don't be confused though, nuns are ALSO called sisters but sisters ARENT called nuns). The major difference is that nuns lead private lives devoted to prayer rather than ministry.

Priests, on the other hand… don't actually HAVE to take a vow of poverty. In fact, most parish priests DON'T. This means that they are paid a salary, save for retirement, and can/do buy plenty of material things. ALL of us are called to live simply… priests just tend to actually answer that calling and thus SEEM like they live a vow of poverty sometimes. Also know that priests have 8-10 years of education on top of alot of post-ed training. This is the educational equivalant to a DOCTORATE. People with PhDs tend to make 100k+ per yearstarting out… often alot more, rarely alot less. Priests on the other hand usually get paid about 40-50k starting out and make about 70-80 at retirement… but typically cap at about 60k. So considering that they could have made 2-3 times more if they weren't devoted to God is a sacrifice of its own.

And churches (I can only speak for catholic churches) give an incredibly high precentage or their revenue for charity. But collections aren't JUST for charity. In fact, most priests will tell you that if you want to donate to charity… do so. Churches have big bills. They do alot of religious education, charity, awareness, etc… these have costs including staffing.

Back on point. If you can't tell, I'm a catholic. And a decently dedicated one at that.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:02PM
KomradeDave at 8:38PM, Feb. 22, 2007
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Aurora Moon
and it's certianly not for taxes or bills, snice they're expemt from government taxes and bills. Despite the fact that gorvenment and church is supposed to be seperate, the government still favors them in that regards. gee, a sweet deal they got going on huh?
All they have to do is quote the mangled, poorly worded english translation of the bible, which doesn't even come close to the oringal text of the oringal bible…. and people just throw money at thier feet!

Greed….that's the only explanation.

They aren't tax exempt because they are churches, they are tax exempt because they are non-profit. A church with a cover charge does not get a tax-break. Plus there are a lot of bills that do need to be paid. Churches have upkeep. I don't know who those clergy are, but I know priests aren't exactly know for their wealth.
Handshakes and mustaches are the only ways to know how much you can truly trust a man.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:20PM
ozoneocean at 10:38PM, Feb. 22, 2007
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reconjsh
The major difference is that nuns lead private lives devoted to prayer rather than ministry.
Whaaat? My great Aunt was a nun and she travelled all over the world on one special project or another, from South Africa to Ireland, to Italy, to god knows where else (pun intended), and she was indeed a nun. She died a few years back now though… Lovely woman, best aunt or great aunt I've ever had.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:26PM
reconjsh at 10:45PM, Feb. 22, 2007
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ozoneocean
reconjsh
The major difference is that nuns lead private lives devoted to prayer rather than ministry.
Whaaat? My great Aunt was a nun and she travelled all over the world on one special project or another, from South Africa to Ireland, to Italy, to god knows where else (pun intended), and she was indeed a nun. She died a few years back now though… Lovely woman, best aunt or great aunt I've ever had.

Yes, some nuns do that. Some nuns live VERY public lives. Mother Theresa is a good example of that. The MAJORITY of nuns, however, live a contemplative, cloistered life in a monastery. They rarely leave and have very heavy restrictions regarding their interaction with the public. This varies depending on what order the nun belongs to, but by and large most nuns live private lives and are not known publically. Why, because nuns have a different ‘calling’ than sisters, though some nuns do get called into public ministry.

So, if there's someone traveling the world, helping the sick, and you've heard of her in your community… and she's called “sister”, odds are good that she's not technically a nun, but rather a sister (female counterpart to monk/brother).

Your aunt could have been and probably was a nun. But there's alot of confusion regarding distinguishing the two and many people make mistakes in labeling - even family. (that is not to say that you have, however)
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:02PM
Phantom Penguin at 2:52AM, Feb. 23, 2007
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I do not. I believe religion brings out the worst of men. Millions of been killed in the name of “god”. And its still happening.

God has done more harm in this world then it will ever do good.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:42PM
subcultured at 5:34AM, Feb. 23, 2007
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dude, my church has been doing these “beg for money” sermons for weeks now…they even mention that our church was one the largest congress.

they have powerpoint presentations and videos of where the donations go instead of an actual sermon of how to live a christian life, and i'm kinda sick of it.
J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:01PM
Aurora Moon at 6:23AM, Feb. 23, 2007
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most of the churches here are pretty solid buildings.. not very old at all. so there's very little way in the terms of up keep that they would need money for.
also, electric bills and what not here are also relatively cheap, due to using local energy/water sources….

even the people who live in big, huge houses here only has to pay like 20 dollars a month for electrity… 10 dollars for water, and so on forth. not a lot of money at all.

Also other thing I've noticed about churches is that they're often poorly ventilated and don't have a lot of heat moving about, even in the winter time. they'll have many cold rooms but only the main room would be warm. so I doubt that they have energy/heat bills racking up if they're conserving their heat like that.

the only bill that would make sense to me is the montage payment, since a lot of people get screwed about when it comes to the montage payment for their buildings/homes. but even then, doesn't really need 5 billion a year for that.

and all those so-called Charities that the local churches does give some of the money to, well.. they're not real charities in my opinion. they're only simply Christian/Lutheran organizations that works on converting people under the disguise of “helping” the homeless and or alcoholics. all those organizations do is preach like crazy at alcoholic anonymous meetings, at homeless shelters. they don't actually put in an effort to actually help.

All that money… I dunno, I would just prefer that they didn't favor only Christian/Lutheran/catholic organizations but instead give that to charities that are actually focused on the more serious issues out there, like charities for homeless/foster children… charities for cancer, etc. at least those organizations actually help and GIVE instead of just preaching.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:09AM
reconjsh at 8:12AM, Feb. 23, 2007
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Aurora Moon: I can't say for certain what other churches do. I can, however, say that I sat on our church's fund raising council for 2 years and we have a VERY large and motivated church. I had special access to the budget and so I saw specifically how a church spends their money.

I can't say for sure what YOUR church spends… but a yearly income of 5 billion seems a bit… silly. Also, some of your estimates for bills are a bit off. Electricity for a “big, huge house” as you called it is definitly NOT 20 dollars. I had a 400 sq ft apartment with no windows and I was rarely home and electricity was over 20 bucks a month. Church electricity bills tend to be more like 200-300 bucks a month. And the heating bills, I've seen even though they keep the thermostat on FREEZING, to be like 400-500 bones a month.

But none of this is the point.

When I looked at the budget, I'm here to tell you I would have gone ape-sh#t if they were spending money in a way I didn't agree with. I won't break it down, because that'd take forever… but really, they did ALOT with their money.

If you are a donor to your church, you have a RIGHT to view how your money is spent. Their budgets are public record, just FYI. If you're not a member, then I don't see your complaint… what do you care what they spend their money on? It's THEIR money, not yours.


Phantom Penguin: Your last post is upsurd.

Subcultured: There's alot of reckless spending that I see some extremely popular protestant churches doing. I don't understand it myself. It's tough sometimes to motivate folk though, so I can see the integration of technology… but ya, it shouldn't replace good ole fashioned grunt work.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:02PM
vgman at 11:25AM, Feb. 23, 2007
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religion hu….. well im not to sure what i belive in. for the most part i do belive we evolved from monkeys we didnt just pop up on the earth thugh i also believe that in order to create somthing you need at least 2-3 ingrediants. (one of them being energy) and SOMTHING had to create the univerce and if before the univerce was created there was nothing then there should have always been nothing. in a nut shell i beleave that we exist because somthing created us but even then what created that somthing…. nothing is eternal and nothing has always been time streches in two ways most people just dont realize it….
RIP TD :cry2:
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:40PM
Aurora Moon at 12:01PM, Feb. 23, 2007
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notice how I said the bills were like that in MY AREA.

keep in mind that bills and costs will VARY from place to place…

So the cost of an massive home/building might run bills up to 200-500 bucks a month in New York or other simlar places…

But in North Dakota, bills are cheap as hell…
My parents lives in an massive two-story home, and their bills for elecrity is only 20 to 30 dollars a month, depending on how much they used things like TV or a fan during that month.

so I was only simply speaking from my expernices of that.

anyway, I don't go to church at all as seeing I don't believe in oragnized religion. however, I used to go in the past, rather unwillingly against my will. so I have oservbed that sort of questionable behavior amongst the churchfolk in the past.

Some churches do like they're supposed to–an building where an oraginzations does a lot to help others.

However… SOME churches also acts more like a cult meeting place where they brainwash the masses into giving them thier money, brainwashing them to do thier bidding. “I am an serveant of god, and God wants you to give me your money!! So go do that will ya? after all, you want to seem devot and godly to others don't you? so gimmine already so that I can spend it recklessly on pointless oraginzations out there that does competely nothing expect covert more people to our cult.”
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:09AM
ozoneocean at 12:41PM, Feb. 23, 2007
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There are “churches” that have classically and catastrophically mishandled millions of dollars! Those evangelical megachurhes for instance. -All those fools who sermonise on TV and almost all of them were found out to be living extravagantly rich lives with fleets of sports cars, mistresses and prostitutes everywhere, huge houses, etc.

On the other side of the coin, many churches that are based in old historical buildings face huge bills. I know a few that have gone to the wall just over the upkeep and repair of the places. They can face bills of millions just to restore the rooves.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:26PM
Atom Apple at 1:36PM, Feb. 23, 2007
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vgman
religion hu….. well im not to sure what i belive in. for the most part i do belive we evolved from monkeys we didnt just pop up on the earth thugh i also believe that in order to create somthing you need at least 2-3 ingrediants. (one of them being energy) and SOMTHING had to create the univerce and if before the univerce was created there was nothing then there should have always been nothing. in a nut shell i beleave that we exist because somthing created us but even then what created that somthing…. nothing is eternal and nothing has always been time streches in two ways most people just dont realize it….
I'm sorry to say this, but honestly no person who is serious about evolution believes we evolved from monkeys. This is a common mis-conception but in reality we evolved from ourselves. Evolution is about changing stages, not species. If we evolved from monkeys, they wouldn't be around because they would have evolved to humans with us.

Anyway, I believe religion is kind of like shooting wildly into a flock of birds. If you're lucky, you'll hit one (a metaphor for the afterlife), but you can never hit one if you don't take a shot.
i will also like to know you the more
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:03AM
Aurora Moon at 1:44PM, Feb. 23, 2007
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ozoneocean
There are “churches” that have classically and catastrophically mishandled millions of dollars! Those evangelical megachurhes for instance. -All those fools who sermonise on TV and almost all of them were found out to be living extravagantly rich lives with fleets of sports cars, mistresses and prostitutes everywhere, huge houses, etc.

On the other side of the coin, many churches that are based in old historical buildings face huge bills. I know a few that have gone to the wall just over the upkeep and repair of the places. They can face bills of millions just to restore the rooves.

don't forget the “churches” in the middle between the two extremes.

there's plenty of churches that operates in an almost similar manner as the “Mega-churches”. Trying so hard to become popular as the “Mega-churches” but isn't really. isn't really quite as rich as those “mega-churches”, but trying to be by constantly panhandling and asking for “donations”.
doesn't really reside in those old historical buildings, so they don't need to spend that much money on upkeep, nether.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:09AM
ozoneocean at 1:47PM, Feb. 23, 2007
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That's a good point about evolution, the monkey thing is what people get stuck on, and it's too simplistic and unscientific (doesn't stop science minded people and not very clever scientists using it though). Better to say that our probable evolutionary path involved a similar state to simians due to our comparative physiology. At that level it is very theoretical.

-I don't know about all the variations of churches that miss-handle funds, but I do know of examples of the ones with old buildings that require a lot of money to repair. Sometimes they have to sell up completely.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:26PM
subcultured at 1:53PM, Feb. 23, 2007
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i think most scientist don't even care about creationist scientist.
the true scientists just turn thier back to them as creationist kept bickering about nonsesical things that can't be proven
J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:01PM
reconjsh at 2:07PM, Feb. 23, 2007
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Aurora Moon: Perhaps you just have the unfortunate fate of living next to only sheister, corrupt, beedy-eyed churches… but I'd venture to guess that the overwhelming majority of churches spend their donated money in a manner that is consistant with the wishes of the people making those donations.

Our church hands out a budget every year and also includes exactly how every cent moved through the church for the previous year. Our parish is large… we have like 4,000 parishners (never are they all at the same place at once - typically the most you'd ever see together is like 1,000). There's many that are 10x our size. I guarentee that if our church didn't spend the money we donate justly, they wouldn't be a church very long. Every church has an obligation to show donors where their money goes… i.e. a budget. And how money is spent is constantly challenged and refined.

I really don't see a basis for saying “…churches do this…” without qualifying it with "…a few churches do this“. By and large, most churches take giving to the less fortunate very seriously. Obviously and publically, several churches have violated this trust. And I'm guessing few people applaud that behavior… which is why when you hear of them, it's usually followed by a ”the IRS did this“ or ”so and so resigned for fraud" type of statement.

You should also remember that donating money to the less fortunate is actually only a small, small portion of what a church is typically intended to do. That's why, for instance, there's several specifically charity organizations that are independant of churches. Their intention is clothe, feed, and educate the poor. The church's function is to facilitate community/brotherhood, religious growth (typically accomplished through education), and communion with God. The church also facilitates a means to donate for charity. But don't be confused… if you want your money to go to helping the poor, don't give it to a church… give it to an agency with a proven reputation and mission statement for helping the poor.

End State: Big, elaboratly decorated churches, well paid employees, lostfy bills, etc are all fine by me. I want the most qualified people running the church I belong to and you attract them through salary. I want a beautiful space when I worship, it's pleasant to be at. I want up to date song books and religious education classes. I want my church to support a catholic school. I want our youth group to go experience Guatamala. Sure, it costs 1500 per kid to go… but the life changing experience they get is worth more than 1500 to the poor.

These things cost money… and like most church donors… I expect them to get done.

Let it be stated, of course, that none of these things are necessary for worship.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:02PM
Aurora Moon at 2:23PM, Feb. 23, 2007
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reconjsh
You should also remember that donating money to the less fortunate is actually only a small, small portion of what a church is typically intended to do. That's why, for instance, there's several specifically charity organizations that are independant of churches. Their intention is clothe, feed, and educate the poor. The church's function is to facilitate community/brotherhood, religious growth (typically accomplished through education), and communion with God. The church also facilitates a means to donate for charity. But don't be confused… if you want your money to go to helping the poor, don't give it to a church… give it to an agency with a proven reputation and mission statement for helping the poor.

Let it be stated, of course, that none of these things are necessary for worship.

I know that. I wouldn't even mind any of that if it wasn't for the fact that the priests and other church staff deliberately says the donations and panhandling is for “charity organizations” that's connected to the churches. when in reality those “charity” organizations are really just organizations that's dedicated to keeping certain communities intact and religious growth… and not the kind of Charity that leads to funding centers that studies and fights illnesses or whatever.
that's the kind of misuse of words that misleads more people to donate money, and those same people doesn't even bother to check what kind of organizations the church is backing up that the churches would wrongly call an “Charity”.

that's the only thing I have an problem with. otherwise I would have no problem with them using that kind of money to do some community work, to upgrade song books, religious education, etc.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:09AM

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