Debate and Discussion

Religion for IDIOTS !
lothar at 8:33AM, March 25, 2006
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Looking at what a mess they've made of the world, is it wrong for me to say that the 3 major Religions that worship “GOD” (christians muslims and jews) are just Plain STUPID !!!!
I'm tired of people saying we should respect ALL religions !
I don't have to respect alchoholics or Goths or whatever stupid idea somebody gets to skrew up their life with, so why do I have to respect somebodies stupid religion ? i'm not saying that they don't have the right to practice their beliefs, no more than I would suggest outlawing alchohol or advacate the fire bombing of hot topic .
It's strange that nobody can see the Obvious problem for the Earth is not “terrorism , or whatever other chicken flue - global weather fuckup thing is going on ” It's RELIGION !!!!!! it makes people crazy + stupid

do you think the world would be better off without it ?

:twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
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PoisonedV at 8:52AM, March 25, 2006
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I think you are a fucking descriminist idiot.

last edited on July 14, 2011 2:46PM
lothar at 9:08AM, March 25, 2006
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PoisonedV
I think you are a fucking descriminist idiot.
DESCRIMINIST ? i tried looking that up but ITS NOT A WORD !!!!!
discriminative
Function: adjective
1 : making distinctions
2 : DISCRIMINATORY
OK ———— i think that was the point of my post
i already stated that i was not suggesting that they dont have a right to their beliefs , What i was trying to get across is that i don't think i should pretend to have warm and fuzzy feelings of all encompassing acceptance of everybodies beliefs no matter how RACIST , SEXIST , SUPRESSIONIST , INTOLLERANT they are !!!
that to me is BULLSHIT !
so i will go ahead and be a descriminist
and you can keep up the knee jerk thoughtless “FUCK YOUs”
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:45PM
PoisonedV at 9:15AM, March 25, 2006
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lothar
PoisonedV
I think you are a fucking descriminist idiot.
DESCRIMINIST ? i tried looking that up but ITS NOT A WORD !!!!!
discriminative
Function: adjective
1 : making distinctions
2 : DISCRIMINATORY
OK ———— i think that was the point of my post
i already stated that i was not suggesting that they dont have a right to their beliefs , What i was trying to get across is that i don't think i should pretend to have warm and fuzzy feelings of all encompassing acceptance of everybodies beliefs no matter how RACIST , SEXIST , SUPRESSIONIST , INTOLLERANT they are !!!
that to me is BULLSHIT !
so i will go ahead and be a descriminist
and you can keep up the knee jerk thoughtless “FUCK YOUs”

Catholic isn't descriminist. Man, you need to do your research, dumbass. Stop basing it on just what you THINK, not what you KNOW.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:46PM
ccs1989 at 9:22AM, March 25, 2006
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Both of you shut up and start using correct grammer, tone down on the emoticons, stop swearing, and create reasonable arguments with well thought out points to support the said arguments.

Edit- Actually, PoisonedV is following most of the guidlines of the English language. Lothar, I recommend you read The Logical Argument
http://ccs1989.deviantart.com

“If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.”
-Henry David Thoreau, Walden
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PoisonedV at 9:28AM, March 25, 2006
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Well, anyway what does religon do? If there were no religons, it would be even worse. People wouldn't care about what their religon guidelines were anyway, and there would be even more terrorists.
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ccs1989 at 9:31AM, March 25, 2006
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Remember that the current middle-eastern terrorists follow the Islamic religion, and feel that when they die they'll be rewarded by Allah in paradise (and I think there's something to do with virgins in there somewhere).
http://ccs1989.deviantart.com

“If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.”
-Henry David Thoreau, Walden
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PoisonedV at 9:40AM, March 25, 2006
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But think about other religons, too.
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lothar at 9:46AM, March 25, 2006
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DUDE ! PoionedV , it's like you didn't even read the post , i didnt say anything about catholics in particular , but since you brought it up maybe you should do a little research on their history ! :lol:
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mykill at 9:52AM, March 25, 2006
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Well, the Dead Kennedy's sang “All religions suck, all religions make me wanna puke”.

There is a solid argument for that proposition. Logic demands truth - so what becomes relevant is - how do we come to accept things as true?

Personal experience of phenomena others also experience, which can be replicated - this is the best way to know something. We know for a fact that fire burns, it burns everytime and for everyone the same way. That fire burns becomes an objective truth, something that can be leveraged in a logical statment - like, playing with fire is dangerous.

Not everything is so black and white. For example we cannot prove the sun will rise tomorrow - we can only suggest it is very highly likely because it has done so every other morning known in history. This is called inductive logic, by the way - when you invoke probability to make a point.

Other ways people use to ‘know things’ do not hold up at all. “Appeal to authority” is the root of many a logical fallacy. Nothing can really be known to be true simply because someone else says so. It's not sufficient. If many ‘authorities’ agree, you can perhaps make an inductive argument of it. But you have nothing even resembling a real fact. It's like trusting the USA is winning the Iraq war because George W. Bush says we are.

Lastly is a problematic yet legitimate way to know something: personal revelation. You shouldn't follow someone because they suggest they saw a burning bush - but if you experience a burning bush that talks to you personally, you can't be faulted for listening to what it has to say. If you are kidnapped by Aliens - you should believe in aliens. The problem is that no one else should believe you without also sharing your experience.

Now, if you've been reading this thoughtfully - you realize that the more popular religious traditions are on shaky ground. They address issues that are unknowable, and rest upon appeal to authority, the authority of those with unique and personal revelations experienced only by themselves.

Now all that in and of itself a bad thing doesn't make. There should be room for faith and belief, even in make believe. There are realities not fully understood that religion and mysticism does touch upon. Many people claim personal revelation - and certainly their belief in their revelation should be respected.

Where does the ‘bad’ come in? Lies. Lying is evil. Christians, Muslims, Hindus and others lie- and suggest they enjoy a monopoly on TRUTH. Any other path therefore is wrong or evil. And you generate conflict and war thusly.

I've already covered what it takes to establish a truth for real. Religion doesn't even come close - by design.

Any religion that claims to be the exclusive truth - is SATANISM! -Not literally, but what is popularly believed of Satanism is realized by faiths that presume to monopolize truth.

(Real Satanists are actually pretty nice folks)
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PoisonedV at 10:03AM, March 25, 2006
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I'm Catholic, but I don't think gays suck. lots of my friends are. Even if you are in a religon, you still have your own views. Don't blame the whole religon, blame the people that are fucking things up. You can say the same thing about any group, and no matter what, it's not going to be fair. Please point out how every person in every religon sucks.
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mykill at 10:09AM, March 25, 2006
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The current Pope, relevant because the Catholic church models itself on monarchy, has personally declared in writing the supremacy of the Catholic Church over all other variations of Christianity and all other religious faiths.

Personally I believe it's possible to damn Roman Catholicism without damning the believers. You yourself demonstrate that it's possible to enjoy faith without subscribing to every evil perpetrated by your religious institution.

That said, were I to suggest truth was where it was at - I could damn the individual Catholic for a faith based on nothing more than bullshit. Unless you claim a personal revelation, then you are excused.

It should also be said you can be damned by association. Like you need not be racist to wear a confederate flag on your jacket - you do deserve to be treated as if you may be a racist (said flag being very popular with the openly racist). As a Catholic you deserve to be treated as if you may hate fags and love unborn babies more than living babies (such attitudes being very common and championed by Catholic Authority). As a Catholic you have to assume some responsibility for your faith.
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PoisonedV at 10:16AM, March 25, 2006
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mykill
The current Pope, relevant because the Catholic church models itself on monarchy, has personally declared in writing the supremacy of the Catholic Church over all other variations of Christianity and all other religious faiths.

Personally I believe it's possible to damn Roman Catholicism without damning the believers. You yourself demonstrate that it's possible to enjoy faith without subscribing to every evil perpetrated by your religious institution.

That said, were I to suggest truth was where it was at - I could damn the individual Catholic for a faith based on nothing more than bullshit. Unless you claim a personal revelation, then you are excused.

It should also be said you can be damned by association. Like you need not be racist to wear a confederate flag on your jacket - you do deserve to be treated as if you may be a racist. As a Catholic you deserve to be treated as if you may hate fags and love unborn babies more than living babies. As a Catholic you have to assume some responsibility for your faith.
*cough* Asshole *cough*
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:46PM
mykill at 10:22AM, March 25, 2006
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PoisonedV
mykill
The current Pope, relevant because the Catholic church models itself on monarchy, has personally declared in writing the supremacy of the Catholic Church over all other variations of Christianity and all other religious faiths.

Personally I believe it's possible to damn Roman Catholicism without damning the believers. You yourself demonstrate that it's possible to enjoy faith without subscribing to every evil perpetrated by your religious institution.

That said, were I to suggest truth was where it was at - I could damn the individual Catholic for a faith based on nothing more than bullshit. Unless you claim a personal revelation, then you are excused.

It should also be said you can be damned by association. Like you need not be racist to wear a confederate flag on your jacket - you do deserve to be treated as if you may be a racist. As a Catholic you deserve to be treated as if you may hate fags and love unborn babies more than living babies. As a Catholic you have to assume some responsibility for your faith.
*cough* Asshole *cough*

Right, and there's a term for that too. Ad-hominem arguement. It means responding to an argument with a personal insult, usually as a function of being unable to respond coherantly and logically.

I'll repeat: You are associated with a group that publically proscribes attitudes that are anti-gay and anti-sex. On what grounds do you demand to maintain this association and to be exempt from being judged for said association?

And by the way, I own up to being an asshole. But it may take one to recognize one. I believe reason trumps feelings. Bad feelings go away, truth remains.

And by the way, I don't care that you're Catholic. I like the Catholic church because I personally have a pagan persuasion and I see the modern Catholic church as representing a wealth of pagan influence. I have a strong interewst in Yoruba too - and where would that faith be today without cover of Catholicism?
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lothar at 10:23AM, March 25, 2006
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PoisonedV - Sounds like you don't belong in the Church anymore than i do . seriously, why do people stick to these Dinasaur religions and then try to bend them to fit their own beliefs ? it's Pointless !
Heres something you might try …
THINK FOR YOURSELF !!!!!!!
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Black_Kitty at 10:26AM, March 25, 2006
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Two points as I'm suppose to be working… >.>

1. For a lot of people, religion is merely an excuse. If you take God out of the equation, I'm sure they'll find some other excuse to bomb your house, kidnap charity workers or terrorize villages. Maybe it'll be about your hair, the shape of your nose or a suggestion that you're oppressing them. People have fought over lesser things but religion is the easiest way to make yourself feel like you have the moral high ground.

2. Mykill has an interesting point regarding religion and their suggestion that they have a monopoly on truth.
However, if you believe something to be true then how do you also believe something to be possibly not true? How do you say to yourself “I believe in God” then turn around and say “well, we can't possibly know the truth so maybe God doesn't exist.”

Can you imagine going into Sunday mass and hearing the priest say “in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit…which may or may not exist. We're not quite sure guys but let's bet on this one”? You can always acknowledge that there are other people who disagree with you but if you think you're right, why would you think you could be wrong?

On a similar note, while I really do not like people condemning other people to hell for not agreeing with them, I think those that do have a personal reasoning to this. If you believe for example that all non-Christians would go to hell and you have some non-Christian friends that you love, what should you do? Should you respect their beliefs but believe in your heart that they're going to suffer in the afterlife…or do you take a shot at introducing Christianity and potentially piss off you friends?

I'm not suggesting that people who go around trying to convert people is good or that it's something every Christian should be doing…but it's something I have been wondering about for a while. My friend used to scold us for doing non-Christian things and we used to joke about that. But if she really sincerely believed, then maybe that scolding came out of a concern for our well-being. Perhaps she didn't want to see her friends head down to a path that is religiously unwell. Perhaps she felt she had a religious responsibility. Who knows.

On a side note, let us all be civil in our discussions. I realize the rules haven't been reposted after the forum wipe but it's really common sense.

.: Black Kitty :.
  
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mykill at 10:34AM, March 25, 2006
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There is a difference between believing your God is real, and believing your neighbor's God is not. The problem isn't science. No one is going to be killed for converting from Islam to science.

There's room to believe in one God that expresses his/her magnificence to different people in different ways. Certain the big religions tend to agree on the big themes anyhow. And logic demands that a singluar all powerfull God would give access to all Humans - not just The Jews or Arabs.
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Ronson at 10:43AM, March 25, 2006
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We all believe stupid things.

I am pretty sure I'm an athiest. I just don't go for the whole cloud being thing. But I can't disprove a cloud being, I just live my life as I see fit without worrying about the cloud being or an alleged afterlife.

Here are the stupid things I believe: That the universe is infinite, that it all began with a Big Bang, that we evolved from primitive life which was started by random chance. That society won't work if we don't live our lives according to established rules (don't kill, don't steal, respect others). That a nonworking society is a bad thing.

I can't prove one iota of anything I've listed. I can list books that support what I believe, but that isn't proof. It's all theory.

If you are a religious person, you can do the same thing, and you can't prove anything you think either. Just because someone believes something strongly doesn't make it true and doesn't give any strength to their assertions.

The problem is that some religions believe they are supposed to force their ideas on others (insert religion of your choice here). That causes friction with people who believe things are different.

And since none of us can prove anything, it usually boils down to who can kill the most people or brainwash the larger part of the population.

No one lives a life based on logic. Logic only gets you so far before you have to fill in the unknowns of existance with small patches of belief. We all do it, but the amount of belief - or faith - is different for everyone.

The reason all faiths should be respected is that NO ONE KNOWS. That doesn't mean that if they push you you shouldn't push back, just that you have to say “You believe what you want, and I'll believe what I want” and hopefully find mutual respect.

Namecalling never helps anything.
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mykill at 10:48AM, March 25, 2006
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I don't think religions is ‘just’ an excuse. I think people really are brainwashed, really believe the hype. Suicide bombers believe virgins await them in paradise. Terrorists believe themselves to be righteous.

Now, the desparation of people can and will drive them to irrational faith. The belief in the power og God is taken for granted, so the response to difficulty is to believe their faith might not be strict enough. There are ways of looking at the issue where the generalities of faith are less relevant.

The Catholic Church really is anti-sex. It's just what is. If you fuck for any reason other than procreation, it is sin. Soon all fucking will be sin - as artificial insemination is perfected.

The problem with Catholicism is that there is a legitimate branch of religious mysticism that denies the carnal entirely and get substantial mileage out of it. This is a problem because Catholicism latched onto this model and proscribes it to its clergy explicitly and to all Catholics generally. I would suggest while the model is legitimate for a minority of spiritually minded people - it is wildly inappropriate for other kinds of people, who may also be spiritual and religious minded.

Jesus suggested it was better to be celibate - but also suggested it was better to marry than to burn. Suggesting sex for pleasure is fine in the context of a comitted relationship.
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Black_Kitty at 11:00AM, March 25, 2006
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mykill
There is a difference between believing your God is real, and believing your neighbor's God is not. The problem isn't science. No one is going to be killed for converting from Islam to science.

Of course you won't because the two can co-exist. You can be Islamic and still be a scientist. The world of science isn't just inhabited by atheists and agnostics.

There's room to believe in one God that expresses his/her magnificence to different people in different ways. Certain the big religions tend to agree on the big themes anyhow. And logic demands that a singluar all powerfull God would give access to all Humans - not just The Jews or Arabs.

But does God fit into what we believe as logic? And why would it be logical that an all powerful God would give access to all human beings? If you have an all powerful being that can make things out of nothing and whose son can raise people from the dead, then why can't this all powerful being also defy logic?

(Although as a disclaimer: personally, I believe that you will be accepted by God regardless of what religion you believe in. But that's just what I think.)

.: Black Kitty :.
  
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PoisonedV at 11:07AM, March 25, 2006
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Then fuck catholicism. Woo athiest woot.
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PoisonedV at 12:56PM, March 25, 2006
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hpkomic at 1:51PM, March 25, 2006
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Wow this debate is retarded. It started off on a horrible foot.
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PoisonedV at 1:58PM, March 25, 2006
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last edited on July 14, 2011 2:46PM
hpkomic at 2:55PM, March 25, 2006
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Someone should lock this thread.

Also:

last edited on July 14, 2011 12:50PM
Black_Kitty at 4:52PM, March 25, 2006
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Mr. Neil
Because being God implies that he has definition, and therefore he cannot be above logic. For example, he cannot be both God and not God. He cannot have a co-God or a God higher than him, because then he wouldn't be God.

So, God must adhere to logic in order to be anything at all, because he is bound to the axiom of identity. Once you start trying to remove God from a state of logic, it then becomes question-begging.

Except that all of this could very well be a man made construct. The definitions we place upon God is definitions we place in order to understand and effectively communicate with one another. God is the label we give to a divine non-human being who can do supernatural things that defies reality. This is a being that could potentially defy logic since well…He made logic.

On a completely different note, I am going to lock this thread but invite anyone to continue it off with a new one, especially if you're interested in continuing this discussion. While the discussion was started off poorly, it was turning towards a better direction until people mistakenly believed that the rest of us didn't know how to use Google Image.

Please refrain from spamming up discussion threads if you have nothing to add to the discussion. If you feel the irresistable urge to spam, go to Top Drawer. That's what that forum is for.

.: Black Kitty :.
  
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Juliechan at 12:00AM, Dec. 14, 2006
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I think it's a matter of choice. Some are raised to beleive such things and others believe to the deepest of their ability that god and/or their religion is fact.

I do think that the world relies on us to dish out respect without returning the favor more than it's fare share, but I think as long as it'd not effecting harm to you than you should leave it alone and get on with your life.
If someone beleives in god, that's their choice. Same as if you do or don't eat meat, Dye your hair purple, shave your legs, same as if you're wearing white socks or blue socks with red spots, it's all the same thing. Everyone's diffrent, and everyone believes something else.
I don't think it's right for you to say what's stupid and what's not. It's like 1st graders on a playground talking about their super hero themed lunch bags next to a paper sack lunch.
Religion although yes can sometimes be overwelming it is not anyones place to go around telling them what they believe is stupid.
I'm personally not religious and I don't think I ever will be I am not under any ‘group’ or stereotype in the religious eye; I like my personal beleifes on the world, after life, what REALLY happends when we're dreaming and so on. I don't want anyone telling me otherwise and THAT's why it doesn't bother me to see others who go to church, warship a god, or not believe in a higher power at all–I personally don't care and I don't think I should. It's their life. I think diffrently from everyone on some level, why should I question somebody elses thoughts and feelings when I myself have thoughts and feelings of my own?

I don't think you can blame one thing for ‘what’s wrong with the world' a lot of things are ‘wrong’ but it's more than just religion, terrists, or abortion. Religion gives certain people morals, makes them feel like they've been ‘saved’ for some of the horrible thinbgs they've done. That may or may not be true, I don't have an opinion one way or another, but if you can make someone turn around and actually care about something and try harder, don't you think that just might be worth it?
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Krensada at 2:26AM, Dec. 14, 2006
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I know there is a saying “Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one.” saying that ill let you know right now that i don't care what you say to me about this. and dont take this the wrong way but I feel I need to get my two cents in.

I beleive that what I beleive in cannot be given to anyone but only recived by free will and faith. What I beleive in I feel holds the very definition of love. and what I believe in is not a religion, but rather a relationship with the one who lovingly created me. I beleive that my faith is my power to overcome the hardships of my life. and so far, I have overcome those hardships. and I willingly await more challenges.

I only talk about them here cause I Like what I beleive in alot…if you dont like what i say don't read it and please dont flame me as im not meaning to offend anyone. By My beliefs we all are sinners and there is nobody alive that is not.


TO be honest with you all I don't even see whats being argued about here. Rules? Regulations? Commandments?

I see the commandments of the bible coming into the conversation quite a bit. And heres my thougts on them. I am a christian by the way in case you all haven't guessed by now.
I have been ridiculed heavily because of this, but mostly behind my back. each of the commandments are all related to eachother. and according to the book if you are guilty of one of them you are guilty of all of them. and we are all guilty of at least one of them. There is nobody alive who hasn't broken at least one.

Thats why I love Christ. He made it possible for my creator to forgive me of the things i have done. and i find a peaceful tranquility in my life in knowing this.

i will stop saying what I am going to say after one last thing…

I am not holier than any of you and I feel Im on equal ground with every one of you but most importiantly I dont hate any of you for any reason. I hope i can still be friends with all of you regardless of what we believe in. I can always use more! :)





Click on this banner…you know you want to!:

The bunny died upon entering my signature.
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mapaghimagsik at 1:50PM, Dec. 16, 2006
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Someone posted that they were Catholic, but didn't think gays “sucked”.

Do you believe gays are going to hell? As far as I know, that's a Catholic belief.
Catholics also don't believe in birth control, and also believe that those who are not Catholic are going to this place called hell.

If you don't believe this, you are not Catholic. That's what the pope *says* and the pope is the highest authority in the Catholic faith.

To people who are religions, I have to ask if you also believe the world is 10,000 years old. Its what creationists believe. What I don't understand is how people of faith pick and choose from the Bible to “believe” something, but then ignore other tennents of the Bible.

I'm not saying its dumb, its something I don't understand. I also don't understand how science is false to many Christians because it can't explain everything, while that which is unexplainable in any religion is a mystery provided by God, and that's supposed to end the discussion.

So if anyone knows the answers to this stuff, I'd love to hear it.

Mind you, I think that's a separate discussion on “Religion: what is it good for”
In the Middle ages, the Church was the welfare system for the people. It provided a degree of literacy and social welfare, things the state provides now to a varying degree.

Another thought. Prague has some of the most beautiful cathedrals in the world, though sports the highest population of atheists in Europe. Discuss
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ozoneocean at 4:37PM, Dec. 16, 2006
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You have a bit of a problem understanding religion obviously. It's a LOT more complicated than “what the bible says” or “what the pope says”. Far, far, far more complex. Catholics do not all believe the same things either. :) Things like the bible and people like the pope aren't the bedrock upon which Christianity rests, contrary to popular thought. These are social/political institutions with long histories, cultures, and traditions, the most important element of which will always be the current adherents; because without them, the religion is dead.

As for the city of Prague, that's obvious: remember the country there along with most of its near neighbours were communist for the last 60 years or so. That's a couple of generations of people who have missed out on a religious education and a massive part of their culture, simply because communist sates tended to ruthlessly discourage too much religion…
 
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