Debate and Discussion

Reparations
subcultured at 8:04PM, Nov. 17, 2007
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^i swear those politicans would say anything for applause and a vote. i especially liked the guy that started off with “and the bible says….”

you can't undo the past, making reparations (from slavery, indian wars, land grab…etc) such as giving back land or a cow won't make everything alright. actually i would find it insulting. i mean really, your great great great grandfather earn that land, but you sure didn't. just like if he owed tax money, should the next 3 generations pay for his mistakes?

you know how much time it's gonna take for handing out reparations? hell, maybe French people want their land back or maybe people with Spanish blood want Texas back. to me it's going to be expensive and instead of repairing the bonds with people it's going to piss everyone off.

i immigrated to the U.S. and am now an American citizen, now should i be taxed towards reparations for something my ancestors never did? what about all the other people who immigrated to this country…

the old slave owners, politicians, and armies are long dead. maybe it's time to let it lie. think about the future and make that a better place.
J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:03PM
bobhhh at 8:56PM, Nov. 17, 2007
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I'm on the fence about reparations, but your argument is way full of holes. First of all most of the wealth in this country IS passed on from generation to generation, so you could say that the people whose parent's became wealthy at the expense of raping the land and subjucating minorities owe SOMETHING to the children of those who were taken advantage of. That of course doesn't include you, but there are a lot of rich family dynasties that stole and stole from blacks and Native Americans back when it was still legal to.

Understand, I'm not buying into per se, but you need to consider all sides.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:29AM
Ronson at 9:07PM, Nov. 17, 2007
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The thing with reparations is that there are some companies that still exist today that made their fortunes on the backs of slaves. It seems to me that if corporations are going to be “persons”, then they should be somehow punished for behavior in the “reckless youth”.

But the US Government has made many attempts at reparations. Affirmative action strikes me as a very meaningful step towards them.

It still isn't an equal playing field by a long shot, but there are too many descendents of slaves for the US to be able to give them anything meaningful. At some point we have to move forward.

…but I'm all for going after the corporations that are still around. Why not?
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:10PM
subcultured at 9:32PM, Nov. 17, 2007
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so if a reparation program would be enacted it would be taxing the rich and giving to the poor. i mean not everyone is good with money even if their ancestors were rich doesn't necessarily make you rich automatically.

problems with things like that is that there are also a lot of people that are half i.e. (white/black french/spanish) so we are only gonna tax those with pure breeds. because a person who has a mix heritage paying and getting money back. this will become a race issue so fast and end up polarizing the U.S. because people feel that they are being tax for being born white/anglo/american

that's gonna set back race relations 50 years.
It's like you have no choice but to pay because you are born a certain color. hm…. sounds like racism to me.


J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:03PM
Mister Mxyzptlk at 9:43PM, Nov. 17, 2007
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It seems that the decendants of the orignal slaves are living a far better quality of life in America than they would have if their ancestors had stayed slaves in Africa.

Would any of you want to have spent the last 75 years living in any nation of Africa? The diseases, the wars, the genocides and the starvation. Does that sound like a better life than the one they have here?

While race slavery in America certainly sucked, the long term results are certainly better for the current generation than if it never happened.

Why not call it a draw.

My soul was removed to make room for all this sarcasm.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:04PM
Aurora Moon at 10:12PM, Nov. 17, 2007
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I see where ronson is going with that whole company thing….

It certainly makes sense that the existing companies today that was built on the back of slaves and such, should probably contribute to charities for the poor or something.

However, Subculture raises a excellent point. Are we going to do it based on race? Because then it's only going to divide up the races instead of uniting us all and making us all equal.

And you know, White people wasn't the only ones who used slaves. There was Mexican-Americans in the west before the states who were untied as the 50 states who also used slaves and a lot of those slaves were WHITE people who was too poor to pay their debts to the government in the west coast which was owned by the Mexicans at the time. So those poor white people had no choice but to work like slaves in order to pay off their debts.
Then you have the Asian immigrants who was brought over to live a life of poverty working the railroads…they weren't slaves in name, but they were still treated as slaves by all those Mexican-Americans, the white people, and so on forth.

So blacks makes the whites pony up their cash/whatever else. And then the whites wants to make the Mexican-Americans/Hispanics cough up the money/everything else for what was done to white people in the past before the west coast ever became American states. And then the Asians wants to make everyone else pay for what was done to their ancestors during the railroad times. And oh, the Native Americans wanting every other races off their own damn Continent because it was THEIRS first and a lot of their ancestors got killed for the land!

Just HATE all over the places from all the races against each other!

Is that really an ideal world?
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:10AM
subcultured at 10:29PM, Nov. 17, 2007
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i know some guy who hit my grandfather when he was in the army.
maybe i should find his relatives and hit him or sue him for assault and battery.
J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:03PM
horseboy at 10:52PM, Nov. 17, 2007
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Damn, looks like we're not going to have a debate here.


Look, any one who was entitled to reparations, got reparations at the end of the War of Northern Aggression. If you don't own 40 acres in the Mississippi delta, it's because either your ancestors sold it or weren't even slaves. Cause, you know what? That really just torques my gears, that it's just assumed that simply because they're black they were automatically slaves.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 12:50PM
ccantrell31 at 11:00PM, Nov. 17, 2007
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Reparations is nothing more than a scheme by lazy ass people who see the chance for a free hand out. We should be mindful of our shameful past and always work towards a better future for people of all races. But that doesn't include a free check so some asshole can buy a TV to make his ancestors feel vindicated.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:37AM
Aurora Moon at 11:24PM, Nov. 17, 2007
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horseboy
Damn, looks like we're not going to have a debate here.


Look, any one who was entitled to reparations, got reparations at the end of the War of Northern Aggression. If you don't own 40 acres in the Mississippi delta, it's because either your ancestors sold it or weren't even slaves. Cause, you know what? That really just torques my gears, that it's just assumed that simply because they're black they were automatically slaves.

yeah. and not every white person had an ancestor who was a slave owner. My ancestors weren't even living in America when all that went down. a lot of them actually came over during the world wars.

So if anybody was to ever tell me that I owed it to a certain race for something that went on in America just because I was white…. I would probably have to just laugh and show them proof that nobody in my family was EVER an slave owner. In fact it was actually MORE likely that some of my ancestors were slaves, despite their “white” status. They might not had been Slaves in name, but you've heard about those debtor's prisons in London and the other places, right?
In case you don't know your history, Debtor's prison is where they send people who was too poor to even pay taxes. They were basically forced to do hard labor, and could be beaten as psychical punishment if they did not fill out their quota well. Doesn't that sound like slavery? And that was where a lot of white people went to.
And my great-great-grandmother (she's dead now), once showed me this ancient picture of this woman who lived in a part of Europe at one time. She apparently had to raise her children all alone because her husband got sent off to debtor's prison, and he died due to being beaten to death.

So I guess the people in that area OWES me money or something? =P Or I could just learn how horrible people could be back then to each other, no matter what the skin color…. and then do everything in my power to NEVER be like those people in History. Learn from the past, but not be chained to it. Move into the future and do your best not to cause any simlar damages.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:10AM
Hawk at 1:22AM, Nov. 18, 2007
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I agree with the general consensus here… Reparations are just part of an ignorant blame game. Nobody can prove for certain who of today's individuals benefitted from past slavery, or who of today's individuals are still suffering from past slavery. And I don't think the government could ever compensate ALL black people in any fair way.

Most of all, the idea that all American white people are descendants of slave owners is racist.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:46PM
ozoneocean at 3:27AM, Nov. 18, 2007
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If reparations are bad, would you then say that the German government shouldn't have paid all those millions to Jewish holocaust survivors and their families? Or that the Swiss banks shouldn't have paid out millions either (on the profits made from money taken from Jewish families by the Nazis and put in the banks for safe keeping). Exactly the same issues occur, except in that case a great deal of money was paid and is still being paid.

Perhaps one of the main problems here is that as US citizens, you're all affected by the slavery case, I don't think any of you are African American and you won't benefit, so maybe that's why you're all against it? :)

Just being devil's advocate here.


What about the millions Lybia has to pay US families of victims of the Lockerbie air disaster? In that case it's doubtful that the Libyan government was truly to blame, and certainly NOT the Libyan people as a whole, but I don't see anybody ever saying they shouldn't be paying…

I'm just thinking that perhaps reparations are only truly a “bad” thing when you're the one who has to pay?
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:28PM
Poke Alster at 5:21AM, Nov. 18, 2007
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Every American should be treated the same
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:46PM
Aurora Moon at 8:03AM, Nov. 18, 2007
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ozoneocean
I'm just thinking that perhaps reparations are only truly a “bad” thing when you're the one who has to pay?

I don't think it's quite like that. If there was something in the laws to the effect where ALL white people had to pay every black/Asian/whatever for what happened in the past, I think it would get pretty ridiculous.

take me. in another post I've already pointed out how none of my ancestors ever had any hand in Slavery. in fact they weren't even America in that time. So If people told me I had to pay out just because I was an WHITE American, I would be like “WHAT?? But I didn't even have anything to do with that. my family couldn't had caused your ancestors to become slaves at all, and I have the proof!”

ALSO… I have too pointed out how it wasn't just blacks who were slaves.
Whites were slaves too (although of course they were CALLED something else as not to spark outrage by others at the time, but still treated like one). and so were Mexicans, Asians, etc. And plenty of similar crap were all committed by all races in America at one point or the other in history. Just because History points to white people as the one who did it more than others doesn't mean other races didn't do it at all.

And all those races with such connections to each other, makes it impossible to figure out who pays who. Also who should receive the money fairly.

Don't believe me? Then I'll provide you with links.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_colonization_of_the_Americas
Take the Spanish when they started to attempt to colonize America. They took Native Americans as laborers (aka slaves), and pretty much treated them like shit. If you thought the English colonies were bad when they started taking over the lands…well, let's just say the English colonies looked tame in comparison to the Spaniards.
As seeing the Spanish pretty much took everything the natives had. Clothing, gold, and any other resources they had. If any one of them acted up, they would actually cut off noses, ears or any other body parts… but send the native back to his/her tribe still alive as an example of the Spaniard's “strength” and what would happen if they didn't comply. I don't think not even an English pioneer went that far.
So I guess Spanish-Americans should pony up to the Native Americans in BOTH North and South America….? Oh, we must not forget the Mexicans. They're the result of Spaniards' colonization. So the Mexicans/cubans/etc might have to pay too, despite the fact that they have a reputation for being so poor…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poorhouse
In Victorian times (for Britain see Poor Law and workhouse), poverty was seen as a dishonorable state caused by a lack of the moral virtue of industriousness (or industry as it was called). As was depicted by Charles Dickens, a poorhouse could resemble a reformatory and house children, either with families or alone, or a penal labor regime to give the poor work at manual labor and subject them to physical punishment. For example, in Saratoga County, New York the 137 inmates of all ages and both genders could be beaten.
Poor white people put into such poorhouses could and was often subjected to physical punishment if they didn't go along with the penal labor regimes that was often put into effect as an attempt to have the poor people pay off their debts and their taxes.
HM, forced labor…again, need I say Slavery? of course, they never dared to call it that… but it was basically the same thing.
So Who pays who for this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Pacific_Railroad
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_American_history
Surprise, surpise… this company is STILL standing today… but of course I'm sure they managed to just confidently forget the fact this railroad was built on hard labor… and a lot of those hard labor wasn't even paid for in the proper sense. They were given so little money, it basically almost amounted to… *gasp* slavery? And guess who the hard labor was done by? Asian immigrants,Native Americans, Money-poor whites, and other “undesirables” who had to do the hard labor that nobody else wanted to do. In fact, A LOT of Asians DIED being WORKED TO DEATH on the railroad.
So why the hell isn't this company paying everyone?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_United_States
And then for kickers…
Blacks owned other blacks as slaves too.
The history of slavery in the United States (1619-1865) began soon after the English colonists first settled in Virginia and lasted until the passage of the 13th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. In the very early decades of the institution, there was indentured servitude, which typically lasted a period of four to seven years for white and black alike; by 1662 the American incarnation of slavery was established by court ruling. By the end of the 17th century slavery was far more common in the Southern colonies than in the North.

From about the 1640s until 1865, people of African descent were legally enslaved within the boundaries of the present United States, mostly by whites, but also by a number of American Indians and free blacks. The vast majority of this slave holding was in the southern United States; approximately one Southern family in four held slaves prior to war. According to the 1860 U.S. census, fewer than 385,000 individuals (i.e. 1.4% of White Americans in the country, or 4.8% of southern whites) owned one or more slaves. 95% of blacks lived in the South, comprising one-third of the population there as opposed to 1% of the population of the North.

Gasp! what's that? in the earlier colonizing times whites were slaves too? And blacks owned black slaves?! Native Americans got into the action too?

So I guess by this… Southern white families should start paying the Blacks, and the Blacks should pay other Blacks, and the Government or something should pay the whites. And then the Native Americans should pay the blacks too, since they owned slaves too. And then White people should pay Native Americans for taking the lands away from them…
Oh wait… that'd turn into a ENDLESS LOOP.

Tell me, how are we to start paying for the past in an fair manner? Who really deserves the money here?
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:10AM
subcultured at 8:14AM, Nov. 18, 2007
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Someone
Jewish holocaust survivors and their families
i said the person who was wronged deserved it and their children, but not generations later.
it's like me holding a grudge against somebody because our great great great great grandfathers killed each other. there has to be some limitations to how far something happened and reparations, or else we are gonna be making reparations from the beginning of time.

and some people would rather forget, rather than open up old wounds.
J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:03PM
Mister Mxyzptlk at 8:38AM, Nov. 18, 2007
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subcultured
It's like me holding a grudge against somebody because our great great great great grandfathers killed each other.

But humans have been holding multi-generational grudges since the dawn of time. Why give up a tradition that works.
My soul was removed to make room for all this sarcasm.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:04PM
TnTComic at 10:24AM, Nov. 18, 2007
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bobhhh
I'm on the fence about reparations

For crissakes…
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:31PM
subcultured at 11:04AM, Nov. 18, 2007
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Someone
But humans have been holding multi-generational grudges since the dawn of time. Why give up a tradition that works.
because it's a waste of time.
going in circles causes global conflicts i.e. holy wars in Jerusalem.

hate gets passed down and look at all the regions that is destabilized because of multigenerational grudges (Ireland, middle east, Africa) they aren't progressing at all.

if the plan is to have global human stability, then you have to let old grudges go.
J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:03PM
Ronson at 11:13AM, Nov. 18, 2007
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Mister Mxyzptlk
It seems that the decendants of the orignal slaves are living a far better quality of life in America than they would have if their ancestors had stayed slaves in Africa.

Would any of you want to have spent the last 75 years living in any nation of Africa? The diseases, the wars, the genocides and the starvation. Does that sound like a better life than the one they have here?

While race slavery in America certainly sucked, the long term results are certainly better for the current generation than if it never happened.

Why not call it a draw.

You do realize that the slave trade and colonization of Africa have led it to the disaster it is today, don't you? Had Africa developed free of European expansion or slavery, it would be a very different place today.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:10PM
TnTComic at 11:14AM, Nov. 18, 2007
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Ronson
Had Africa developed free of European expansion or slavery, it would be a very different place today.

for lack of a better word… duh?
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:31PM
Ronson at 11:16AM, Nov. 18, 2007
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Ronson
Had Africa developed free of European expansion or slavery, it would be a very different place today.

for lack of a better word… duh?

The point being that arguing that Africans sold into slavery are better off than those that stayed in Africa is a flawed argument because the slave trade and European expansion can be tracked back as the roots of many problems in modern Africa.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:10PM
TnTComic at 11:27AM, Nov. 18, 2007
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Ronson
The point being that arguing that Africans sold into slavery are better off than those that stayed in Africa is a flawed argument because the slave trade and European expansion can be tracked back as the roots of many problems in modern Africa.

So… people who were sold into slavery aren't better off… because… there was slavery…

can you rephrase or something?
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:31PM
bobhhh at 11:41AM, Nov. 18, 2007
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How many times do I have to say it? If you're parents weren't here, then you shouldn't have to be responsible. Only the rich descendants of slave owners. Of course they are innocent, but whats wrong with being accountable? If you had an item that belonged to someonethat was proven stolen would it be wrong to return generations later even though you didn't physically steal it?

And this boo hoo about why do only black people get reparations, are you people fkn serious? Aside from Native americans, NOBODY IN HISTORY has been dehumanized and treated like animals they way black people were. Throughout history slaves were never treated as subhuman, they were spoils of war and victims of unfair legal systems, but never commonly thought of as animals too primitive to deserve the blessings of liberty.

You people ought to rethink this wounded attitude in respects to reparations. Sure some people want a handout, welcome to reality, but Whenit come to the legacy of slavery and the foloowing decades of economic aparteid that followed, I say even a small check in the mail is a symbolic gesture that would be a start to redressing things.

And if other folks feel they deserve reparations, let them make their arguments. I don't care, because my folks were immigrants, so I won't have to pay.
My name is Bob and I approved this signature.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:29AM
TnTComic at 11:42AM, Nov. 18, 2007
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bobhhh
Of course they are innocent, but whats wrong with being accountable?

dude… WHAT
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:31PM
bobhhh at 11:43AM, Nov. 18, 2007
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Ronson
The point being that arguing that Africans sold into slavery are better off than those that stayed in Africa is a flawed argument because the slave trade and European expansion can be tracked back as the roots of many problems in modern Africa.

So… people who were sold into slavery aren't better off… because… there was slavery…

can you rephrase or something?

Yes a legacy of slavery is worse than a current life in poverty, jeez does this really need to be said???

Or perhaps you think people in Africa are banging their heads against a wall saying, “If only my granmother had the good fortune to be kidnapped, tortured, forced into servitude, raped and had her children sold off, I would be lucky enough to be an American now.”
My name is Bob and I approved this signature.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:29AM
TnTComic at 11:52AM, Nov. 18, 2007
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bobhhh
Yes a legacy of slavery is worse than a current life in poverty, jeez does this really need to be said???

Or perhaps you think people in Africa are banging their heads against a wall saying, “If only my granmother had the good fortune to be kidnapped, tortured, forced into servitude, raped and had her children sold off, I would be lucky enough to be an American now.”

Oh my god you are craaaaaazy.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:31PM
subcultured at 12:07PM, Nov. 18, 2007
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i'm sure money solves everything.
here's your 5 thousand for hunting your ancestors with dogs and putting him in chains.

just like a hospital paying parents money for accidentally killing their child during an operation. i'm sure money will make the pain go away. everyone will be friends after they get money. really..in what world?
J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:03PM
Mister Mxyzptlk at 12:10PM, Nov. 18, 2007
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subcultured
because it's a waste of time.

So is religion, but humanity spends quite a bit of effort on it anyhow.

Humans seem to love wasting time.
My soul was removed to make room for all this sarcasm.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:04PM
bobhhh at 12:25PM, Nov. 18, 2007
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bobhhh
Yes a legacy of slavery is worse than a current life in poverty, jeez does this really need to be said???

Or perhaps you think people in Africa are banging their heads against a wall saying, “If only my granmother had the good fortune to be kidnapped, tortured, forced into servitude, raped and had her children sold off, I would be lucky enough to be an American now.”

Oh my god you are craaaaaazy.


Oh really? how so ?
My name is Bob and I approved this signature.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:29AM
bobhhh at 12:29PM, Nov. 18, 2007
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bobhhh
I'm on the fence about reparations

For crissakes…

What the fuck is wrong about not having made up my mind!?!? What are you genius or something because you are so damn certain??
My name is Bob and I approved this signature.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:29AM

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