Debate and Discussion

Saddam hangs !
jalford at 3:25AM, Jan. 8, 2007
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They were FAST with his execution after the verdict. Most American criminals after getting the death penalty sentence usually wait a decade or so before actually getting bumped off.

They should've put Saddam on that Running Man thing they did, accept this time have Bob Barker host it. He's so much more evil!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:06PM
Ronson at 6:01AM, Jan. 8, 2007
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Vindibudd
Well no one is saying we are losing California are they? We keep losing Iraq every 3 seconds.

Because California has no where near the death and carnage, is not at war with anyone, and is part of the United States and enjoys one of the most stable governments in the world.

Your statistic is something only people who want to believe things aren't as bad in Iraq for our soldiers as they are. It is helped by a conservative hatred of California, which is treated like a failed state because of its progressive policies. The statistic is false on the face of it and contorts the truth to make things seem better. It is a lie, and it's specifically a lie to hide the failure of the Iraq invasion and occupation.

And it isn't that we're losing Iraq every 3 seconds, it's that the strategy the Bush administration has adopted since day one was poorly planned. The reasons for going in were feeble and didn't hold up under scrutiny, the implementation engaged too few troops in the beginning and tore down the infrastructure of the Iraqi government just when it needed it most.

We are losing Iraq because of poor decisions from the White House and the Pentagon that seem to promote chaos and instability instead of resolving it. The reasons for this can only be conjectured. It's probably somewhere between ideology conflicting with reality and unconsidered cultural reactions to our invasion and occupation.

I have NO IDEA how to fix the mess Bush put us in for no convincing reason. I know that getting out of it will require overriding Bush or waiting for him to leave. The former is not likely as congress is still a fairly close split, and the latter means more dead citizens and soldiers. Bad choices all around.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:10PM
ozoneocean at 4:26AM, Jan. 9, 2007
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marine
Oh also, I was wondering if anyone could tell me why anyone cares about Saddam's hanging, he wasn't one of gods precious animals in the forres, he was just like me, some guy. Peolple die, get the fuck over it.
Ot's not about him as a person, it's about the circumstances and his position. Say for example you becmome the leader of Liberia, France invade, they capture you, have a trial and have you executed… then that'll engender the same level of debate. ^_^
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:25PM
Priceman at 3:24PM, Jan. 11, 2007
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lothar
what's up with this hanging thing? didn't we get over that in like 1890 ? anyway i think it's rather shamefull to see people celebrating and carrying on as such because a man was killed. don't get me wrong , i'm not a big fan of saddam , but it seems kinda sick that everybody is so jubilant about this. what do you think ?


“Any man that turns on his fellow man is no longer a man, he's a mad dog and should be dealt the same fate”. - Rurouni Kenshin

Plain and Simple.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:47PM
ozoneocean at 3:42PM, Jan. 11, 2007
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Priceman
“Any man that turns on his fellow man is no longer a man, he's a mad dog and should be dealt the same fate”. - Rurouni Kenshin

Plain and Simple.
Actually that's precisely what it isn't. Sorry for saying this, but that quote is complete and utter balls. For one thing, it doesn't examine the reason for the “turn” and for another; if you were to apply it, it would be completely circular: man attacks people for some reason, so you attack the man, others attack you, then the others have to be attacked… And so on.

But it's all irrelevant because this is a complicated and important symbolic case of international law, or more correctly; a failure of international law.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:25PM
Charlox at 5:43PM, Jan. 11, 2007
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Vindibudd
Saddam actually came to power with other military leaders staging a coup. The US did not, in fact, “put” Saddam into power. There is a difference between offering military and financial support after the fact and doing so before the fact. Source

Technically we indirectly “put” Saddam into power when the C.I.A. funded the coup of the Ba'ath party to oust Abdul Karim Qassim

Ronson
This is established fact. We paid for Iraq to fight Iran. The Russians paid Iran. The only reason I point it out at this juncture is that we've pretty much selected the government and leaders in Iraq today. Hopefully none of them become the next Saddam, but I'm not overly optimistic.

Ronson is technically right in the sense that the United states had been providing intelligence and support to Iraq since the fall of their puppet, the brutal Shah of Iran. The Iran-contra affair is proof that we were also playing both sides of the field as were the Russians.

Vindibudd
Ronson
2. Saddam didn't murder millions.

This is not really worth arguing about. He murdered lots and lots of people.

While it's true that he and his party murdered thousands of his own people during the twenty something years of rule, the estimated figure is no where near the millions figure that many conservatives like to spew out.

Ronson
3. I'm glad he's dead.

I'm NOT glad he's dead. It was an apparent mock trial that didn't do much to help the image of the new Iraqi government. I'm not pro-Saddam since their is no question that he was a horrible brutal dictator, but simply because death is the easy way out. He should've rotted in jail. Another reason which was obvious from the beginning was that it was going to add fuel to the fire in this civil war mess.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:40AM
Priceman at 4:13PM, Jan. 14, 2007
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ozoneocean
For one thing, it doesn't examine the reason for the “turn”

I slap you, you slap me. That i understand. However, there can be no logical reason for anyone to commit the slaughter that he's responsible for.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:47PM
ozoneocean at 5:22PM, Jan. 14, 2007
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Priceman
I slap you, you slap me. That i understand. However, there can be no logical reason for anyone to commit the slaughter that he's responsible for.
But why do you slap me in the first place? Did you just hate me? Did I insult or steal something from you? Was it an accident? Did someone tell you to do it? I could just react to the slap and slap you back, but I'm not that stupid: I have no way of knowing what was behind it and therefore; what it might lead to. It's never simple.

Sadam didn't slaughter anyone. His political machine did it. Exactly the same way the political machines of all dictators and governments do. They all have their reasons, but we can't go off and hold them all personally responsible and kill them for it can we? That would be insane and never end! The current president of the USA would be on the scaffold and so would Tony Blair just for their actions in starting that terrible war in Iraq, and that's only the beginning!

Besides, if you consider all the parties in the worst crimes of Sadam's regime in the 80's, you will find the USA and Britain just as culpable there and this is the greatest sore-point. I'm speaking primarily about the millions dead in the Iraq Iran war, as well as the use of chemical weapons against Iran (which was far more serious than any use against the Kurds).

Blaming Sadam solely for all that is exactly like what was done to those poor moron US soldiers who were exposed as torturing Iraqi POWs. Instead of punishing the commanders and bureaucrats responsible for making sure such things happened, those idiots were used as scapegoats. They were guilty, but they didn't deserve all responsibility for the acts! Even the women who was the general in charge of the Abu Garib prison was dismissed and she again was simply another scapegoat for the true criminals behind the policy of institutionalised torture.

It's just easier on people who don't want to go into things a bit more deeply to find an easy way out.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:25PM
nighthawk41 at 2:18PM, Jan. 23, 2007
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I think a slow painful torture to death would have been more acceptable.

Why is America getting blamed for this? The Iraqis set up the trial, they set up the execution… It seems like America is blamed for everything! (IE we're considered the most polluting country in the world when studies prove that we aren't even among the top ten.)
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last edited on July 14, 2011 2:16PM
ozoneocean at 4:30PM, Jan. 23, 2007
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There is a very good reason America is implicated in this, it's just a small matter though: Invasion.
Yes, the USA porduces 25% of the world's CO2 and greenhouse gasses, and probably a lot else too. This is number 1 position, while only having something like 5 % of the world's population. But it's totally irrelevent to the discussion.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:25PM
Priest_Revan at 5:54PM, Jan. 23, 2007
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Poor Saddam.

The entire trial was against him.
Updates Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday's (depends).

7/0

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last edited on July 14, 2011 2:47PM
ccs1989 at 11:56AM, Jan. 25, 2007
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Poor Saddam? You're kidding, right?
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-Henry David Thoreau, Walden
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:38AM
kyupol at 12:38PM, Jan. 25, 2007
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Because Saddam showed his defiance, he is now a martyr.

Nobody cares that he was found cowering like a rat inside a hole.

Nobody cares about the millions he tortured and killed.

NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:25PM
Ronson at 12:39PM, Jan. 25, 2007
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nighthawk41
I think a slow painful torture to death would have been more acceptable.

Why is America getting blamed for this? The Iraqis set up the trial, they set up the execution… It seems like America is blamed for everything! (IE we're considered the most polluting country in the world when studies prove that we aren't even among the top ten.)

Well, America had a lot of influence on the formation of the Iraqi government, Americans guarded Saddam's cell in a United States run prison, Americans built the gallows on their base and transported Saddam to the Iraqi government for the hanging.

Other than that, we weren't all that involved.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:10PM
Rydel6 at 2:31AM, Jan. 28, 2007
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Sorry to get a little off topic and all, but was it really him that got hung? I remember during the Gulf War they talked about Saddam having body doubles. What ever happened to those guys? Are we positive that the right person got the punishment?

I've done some research online and most studies show that he had at least 3 body doubles.

Check out http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=1076722002

Also look at http://www.samsloan.com/saddams.htm

And this http://saddamisalive.wordpress.com/, but be warned; this page has the video of the hanging embedded, so it might not be the best of sites to visit.

But still, why was something so widely discussed a decade earlier not even be mentioned during the whole trial? I refuse to watch the execution, because I'm strongly opposed to the death penalty and I like to sleep at night, but I believe that I read that Phantom Penguin has seen it. I dunno, I kind of read through the entire topic rather quickly.

So which of the three is it in the video? Was there a DNA test to prove it was him? Did the U.S. government know about this?
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:15PM
Priest_Revan at 8:26PM, Jan. 28, 2007
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ccs1989
Poor Saddam? You're kidding, right?

Not really.
Updates Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday's (depends).

7/0

Offering Project Wonderful Ad space on my website.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:47PM
nighthawk41 at 3:32PM, Jan. 29, 2007
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Rydel6
Sorry to get a little off topic and all, but was it really him that got hung? I remember during the Gulf War they talked about Saddam having body doubles. What ever happened to those guys? Are we positive that the right person got the punishment?

I've done some research online and most studies show that he had at least 3 body doubles.

Check out http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=1076722002

Also look at http://www.samsloan.com/saddams.htm

And this http://saddamisalive.wordpress.com/, but be warned; this page has the video of the hanging embedded, so it might not be the best of sites to visit.

But still, why was something so widely discussed a decade earlier not even be mentioned during the whole trial? I refuse to watch the execution, because I'm strongly opposed to the death penalty and I like to sleep at night, but I believe that I read that Phantom Penguin has seen it. I dunno, I kind of read through the entire topic rather quickly.

So which of the three is it in the video? Was there a DNA test to prove it was him? Did the U.S. government know about this?
God dammit, this is going to lead to another conspiracy isn't it?
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last edited on July 14, 2011 2:16PM
Rydel6 at 4:43PM, Jan. 29, 2007
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nighthawk41
God dammit, this is going to lead to another conspiracy isn't it?

I'm not sure if it will. I did see the same topic in a tabloid yesterday while shopping. I think it was in the Weekly World News, or something of that nature. I flipped through to see what they said about the whole thing too, but didn't have enough time to read it. You'd think people would buy more stuff in Wal-Mart.

Anyway, all I saw that they had was some very fake picture of him standing on a balcony. I would really like to know if anyone who's seen the hanging can tell what his teeth look like and if he has the mole on the top left temple. Those are the only ways I know of to tell the duplicates apart without facial recognition software.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:15PM
Phantom Penguin at 3:03AM, Jan. 30, 2007
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Yes i did see the video. For a movie showing a man being killed, its not to graphic.


But i really don't think hes alive. I'm pretty sure i remember DNA tests being done on him while he was in jail, but i can't remember.

I think it would be pretty funny to see the look on President Bush's face if he found out it wasn't really saddam he hung.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:42PM
ozoneocean at 7:49AM, Jan. 30, 2007
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I'd prefer not to go down the route of silly theories about multiple body doubles and cheating death, especially if it involves links to videos of people being put to death. It'd be better to go down the Elvis route! Elvis has about 2 billion body doubles these days, that's like the entire population of China. The entire population of China could be Saddam doubles, they could go to Saddam festivals, have Saddam dress up competitions; Saddam with the big black bushy mustache in the younger years, Saddam with the crazy bearded bum look in the later years…

As for GB jnr's reaction if he learned Saddam was still alive: it doesn't bother him that Osama Bin Laden lives, so…

In the latest news, don't you find it just tragically hilarious the way they're trying to blame the failure in Iraq on Iran now? Yeah, looks like all the violence was Iran's fault alllllllll along, they screwed up Iraq all by themselves, bad ol' Iran.
But BACK TO REALITY, I hope Russia sends Iran FREE nuclear weapons so that Iran can protect itself from being turned into another Iraq by this bunch of morons and their stupid middle east strategies that always seem to fail so catastrophically.

Seriously, there's no "troop surge' needed, Iran and Syria could probably do a better job at fixing Iraq, they've got far more stake in having a stable situation in place then a bunch of invading foreigners from halfway across the Earth. That's their people, right on their back door step. And they'd DO it too. For all the bad press Syria gets they seem to have been the only ones who stopped the internecine civil war that went on for so long in Lebanon while countries like the US, USSR, and Israel made things worse and worse. But some how I don't think they're going to get a chance… In fact it seems that for SOME reason, they're being made out as part of the problem when realistically they're the best and only hope for a solution. I wonder why that is? Hmmmm ;)

…God I love the spell checker in SeaMonkey1.1, it's finally caught up to Firefox2.0!

~Ozone rant: over.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:25PM
simonitro at 3:31AM, Feb. 3, 2007
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Being an Arab… myself! It did give a mixed feeling… non were a joy!

First of, I'm NOT against anything American because I'm ready to respect any nation around. When I saw the next day Saddam was hagged to death, I wasn't please but it saddened me… he's still human and we all have our mistakes.

I hate it when a group of people celebrate someone's death even though he was a dictator. During September 11 attacks, you see people in Iraq, Palestine etc… celebrating this act of Satanism and I can assure you that Osama Bin Laden didn't do it because of Palestine because he was a fucking murderer.

It's funny how people cry over a friend's death and rejoice over a foe's death. It's sickening. Both are humans whether they did good or bad and I do not wish death for anyone even though he would hurt my feelings pretty badly.

If you build in hate within you, it will slowly swallow you.

But yet, our race is built over wars and disasters AND peace and construction… it's within human nature… whether you like it or not!

About the hanging… humans do enjoy going back to their previous methods from time to time!


Enjoy… Las Vegas-y
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:37PM
kyupol at 10:20AM, Feb. 4, 2007
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shoulda been executed the same way he and his sons tortured and executed his victims.

Lemme see…

1) throwing people in meat grinders ALIVE
2) gassing the kurds, shiites, and iranians.
3) rounding them up in the center then beating them with sticks
4) Iraqi army training: tie up the legs of the soldier then whip him 20x.
5) Republican guard who did something minor… prolly sleeping on the job or something… I saw the vid… Anyway, he got his hands cut in THREE PLACES. Why not just cut off the hand in one shot? Whats the point of making him suffer?
6) Tying people upside down, beating them, then inserting electricity into their private parts…
7) Making people dig their own graves before getting shot. Yeah. Dig your grave, get shot, then you fall into it.
8) During iraq's war with iran, one of saddam's generals disagreed with the strategy only to get shot in the head in the board room.
9) Saddam harrassed his scientists to build him his super weapons… and if deadlines werent met, they got beatings.


And hanging… at least he wasnt tortured before he died.
NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:25PM
ccs1989 at 12:39PM, Feb. 4, 2007
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I'm actually glad he wasn't tortured before he died. America is supposed to be anti-torture. We can't stoop to that level.
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“If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.”
-Henry David Thoreau, Walden
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:38AM
Rydel6 at 6:03AM, Feb. 12, 2007
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ccs1989
I'm actually glad he wasn't tortured before he died. America is supposed to be anti-torture. We can't stoop to that level.

Actually we do torture, but it's a secret.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:15PM
7384395948urhfdjfrueruieieueue at 9:39AM, Feb. 13, 2007
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Saddam wasn't actually hung. Stalin blew him up.

(Refer to my comic.)

(lol easy page views.)
i will also like to know you the more
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:03AM

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