Debate and Discussion

Sarah Palin .. the devil or just out right scary ?
dueeast at 10:00AM, Oct. 24, 2008
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Ronson,

You and Spang and I should really find a way to sit down and have coffee sometime (where do you two live, State-wise, anyway? I'm in Texas), maybe over Skype or something. I do see that you're being pretty reasonable in these most recent replies. So I think to myself “Ronson defending Palin? Dueeast and Ronson agreeing on things? Whoa, stop the presses! There's hope for this world yet (either that, or the end is near!)” lol!

My own view of McCain has steadily declined in recent weeks, seeing how the debates went and also how the campaign has handled itself. It is also fair to examine McCain's ties just as closely as Obama's. I already didn't trust McCain, as far back as prior to his winning the Republican nomination. Despite his past patriotism and service to the U.S., I don't trust him as a politician. Really and truly, I have a hard time trusting any politician…it's just the nature of that profession.

As I've stated before, although I'm not a die-hard Obama supporter and I don't like some of his stated goals/positions, I do like how he's handled his campaign. Over the last few weeks, the country has had a really good opportunity to see how different politicians handle themselves and their campaigns. For the record, I like some things about Palin. That said, however, she has managed to evoke and fan some very negative aspects of humanity in their campaign rallies. The fact that McCain was forced to publicly compliment Obama and work to quiet the growing hate-filled rhetoric of his own supporters shows he does not have control of his own campaign. If he can't manage his campaign, how can he manage the country? It just raised too many doubts for me. I feel obligated to vote and of the two candidates, Obama is more palatable and has behaved in a more Presidential manner. I have to give credit where credit is due.


Ronson
Okay, I'm going to chime in here a little bit in defense of Palin.

She has clarified (possibly altered, but we have to take her at her word) that she just meant that in the discussion of evolution, there could be a discussion about creationism if the students are interested/confused about it. She didn't demand one of those retarded books that teach “both”, and she didn't say it should be mandatory.

…though, as I say, that's her post-VP pick clarification.

I'd be more interested in hearing the defense for McCain's ties (in the form of friendships, campaign contributions and advisors) to terrorists and terrorist sympathizers {listed by me previously on this page), since he so obviously has more than Obama's alleged ties.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:18PM
radarig at 10:29AM, Oct. 24, 2008
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Oh, holy crap.



The meat of the clip, as reported by NBC:
NBC
Palin resisted the suggestion that if Ayers was a “domestic terrorist” — a standard line in her campaign addresses — then so were conservative religious activists who bombed abortion clinics.

“I don’t know if you’re going to use the word ‘terrorist’ there,” she said.
I don't know what to say here. I expect a bit of opportunism in what politicians use against each other, but if you're going to try to link your opponent to terrorists, at least have the mettle to call all domestic bombers what they are.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:58PM
dueeast at 10:48AM, Oct. 24, 2008
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I will agree with you, radarig. Abortion clinic bombers are also domestic terrorists. That was a lame cop out on her part. McCain looked like he was about to have a hernia, fidgeting in his chair like that. *Sighs*

radarig
Oh, holy crap.



The meat of the clip, as reported by NBC:
NBC
Palin resisted the suggestion that if Ayers was a “domestic terrorist” — a standard line in her campaign addresses — then so were conservative religious activists who bombed abortion clinics.

“I don’t know if you’re going to use the word ‘terrorist’ there,” she said.
I don't know what to say here. I expect a bit of opportunism in what politicians use against each other, but if you're going to try to link your opponent to terrorists, at least have the mettle to call all domestic bombers what they are.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:18PM
rufus_edge at 1:29PM, Oct. 24, 2008
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Like I said, terrorists are terrorists.
The thing about Palin including the “s” after the word “terrorist” is valid because Ayers’ wife, Bernardine Dohrn, whom Obama also knows, is a terrorist. She was on the FBI’s top ten most wanted list. But, yeah, it’s going overboard to be concerned about an extra “s”.

The following are all personal views. If I present any false statements as facts, you can point it out.

Some things I like about John McCain

He loves his family.
He adopted a daughter from Mother Teresa’s Orphanage in Bangladesh.

He comes from a distinguished military family.
He attended the United States Naval Academy at Annapolis.
He served in the Navy and became a Captain.
He endured five and a half years of cruel treatment in Hanoi, and declined an offer to go home before his fellow POWs.
Over the course of his military career, including before, during, and after his years as a POW, he earned 17 awards and decorations, including a Silver Star Medal, a Navy Commendation Medal, a Legion of Merit with a combat “V” and one gold star, a Distinguished Flying Cross and a Bronze Star Medal with a combat “V” and two gold stars.

He was a member of the US House of Representatives from 1983-1987.
He has been a senator since 1987.

He supports making Bush’s tax cuts permanent.
He supports cutting taxes for businesses.
He wants to cut government spending, and is one of the most vocal supporters of eliminating wasteful spending.
He warned of our current financial crisis saying, “American taxpayers will continue to be exposed to the enormous risk that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac pose to the housing market, the overall financial system, and the economy as a whole” in 2005 and ”for years, I have been concerned about the regulatory structure that governs Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac… and the sheer magnitude of these companies and the role they play in the housing market… the GSEs need to be reformed without delay” in 2006.
He cosponsored legislation pushing stricter regulation of Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae.

He does not support universal health care.

He wants to continue the war in Iraq until we have obtained victory and established a stable, democratic ally with a stable economy.
He wants to defeat al-Qaeda in Iraq.
He was one of the greatest supporters of the surge in Iraq.
His top priority is Homeland Security.

He wants to kill Osama bin Laden.
He supports adding at least three additional brigades to Afghanistan.

He supports securing our boarders, including fencing, boarder patrol agents, UAVs, and ground sensors.
He also supports more effective screening of cargo at our boarders and ports.

He supports overturning Roe v. Wade.
He voted for the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act.
He voted in favor of the Hyde Amandment, which prohibits taxpayer funding of abortion through Medicaid.
He voted for a bill that would have required an abortionist to notify at least one parent before performing an abortion on a minor girl from another state.

He believes that a person obtains human rights at the moment of conception.
He opposes the creation of human embryos for research purposes.

He believes that marriage should be protected as a sacred institution between a man and a woman.
He co-chaired the Arizona Marriage Protection Amendment campaign in 2006.
He does not believe that same-sex couples should have all the same legal rights and privileges as married couples.

He voted to confirm Chief Justice John Roberts and Justice Samuel Alito to the Supreme Court.
He strongly supports judges who will strictly interpret the law and not “legislate from the bench”.

He supports the use of the death penalty.

He supports the use of school vouchers.
He recognizes that increased funding alone cannot solve the education problems our country is facing.
He recognizes No Child Left Behind as a flawed program but a good first step.

He supports an Arizona ban on affirmative action.

He strongly supports Israel’s right to exist and its right to a strong national defense.
He considers Iran to be an extremely serious threat.
He said the situation with Iran is “the most serious crisis we have faced - outside of the entire war on terror - since the end of the Cold War.”
He has said “Iran is dedicated to the destruction of Israel” and “nuclear capability in Iran is unacceptable.”

He strongly supports a wide variety of programs that support our veterans.

He supports an “all-of-the-above” energy solution.
He supports lifting the ban on offshore oil drilling.
He wants to expand our exploration and use of domestic supplies of oil and natural gas.
He wants to invest in nuclear power, building 45 new power plants by 2030, with the ultimate goal of constructing 100 new plants.
He opposes ethanol subsidies.

He’s an American Hero.

Some things I like about Barack Obama

He’s young, friendly, and exciting.
He loves his family.
He attended Punahou School, Columbia University, and Harvard Law School.
He wants to kill Osama bin Laden.



last edited on July 14, 2011 3:12PM
isukun at 2:31PM, Oct. 24, 2008
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He adopted a daughter from Mother Teresa’s Orphanage in Bangladesh

Wow, as someone with an adopted sibling that really sounds awful and opportunistic of him. Guess it worked on you, though. It would have impressed me more had he adopted an orphan from the US rather than shooting for sympathy and name recognition on such an important life decision. I guess that's just one more American child stuck in foster care, though.

I've got no problems with a military man, but I find it kind of funny that 95% of the rest of that are reasons I would NOT vote for McCain (not that it matters, I've already cast my vote for Obama).
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:04PM
SpANG at 3:25PM, Oct. 24, 2008
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Things I like about Barack Obama

He will strengthen Civil Rights
He will combat Employment Discrimination
He will expand Hate Crimes Statutes
He will end Deceptive Voting Practices
He will end Racial Profiling
He will reduce Crime Recidivism by Providing Ex-Offender Support
He will eliminate Sentencing Disparities
He will expand Use of Drug Courts

He will invest in a 21st Century Military
He will build Defense Capabilities for the 21st Century
He will restore the Readiness of the National Guard and Reserves
He will develop Whole of Government Initiatives to Promote Security
He will restore Our Alliances
He will reform Contracting

He will provide Americans with disabilities with the educational opportunities they need to succeed.
He will end discrimination and promote equal opportunity.

He will provide Middle Class Americans Tax Relief
He supports Small Businesses
He will protect Homeownership and Crack Down on Mortgage Fraud
He will create a Universal Mortgage Credit
He will address Predatory Credit Card Practices
He will reform Bankruptcy Laws
He will ensure Freedom to Unionize and Protect Striking Workers
He'll raise the Minimum Wage to $9.50 an Hour by 2011
He'll enact a Windfall Profits Tax to Provide a $1,000 Emergency Energy Rebate to American Families

He will expand the Family and Medical Leave Act
He will double funding for the main federal support for afterschool programs
He will expand Flexible Work Arrangements

The typical middle class family will receive well over $1,000 in tax relief under the Obama plan, and will pay tax rates that are 20% lower than they faced under President Reagan.

He introduced the STOP FRAUD Act to increase penalties for mortgage fraud and provide more protections for low-income homebuyers, well before the current subprime crisis began.

He sponsored legislation to combat predatory payday loans, and he also was credited with lobbying the state to more closely regulate some of the most egregious predatory lending practices.

He will reform No Child Left Behind
He will make Math and Science Education a national priority

He supports outreach programs like GEAR UP, TRIO and Upward Bound to encourage more young people from low-income families to consider and prepare for college.

He will recruit, prepare, retain, and reward America's teachers

He will put 1 million Plug-In Hybrid cars – cars that can get up to 150 miles per gallon – on the road by 2015, cars that we will work to make sure are built here in America.

He will ensure 10 percent of our electricity comes from renewable sources by 2012, and 25 percent by 2025.


He will make White House Communications Public


He plans to have periodic national broadband townhall meetings to discuss issues before their agencies.

He will nullify the Bush attempts to make the timely release of presidential records more difficult.

He helped passed a law to create a Google-like search engine to allow regular people to approximately track federal grants, contracts, earmarks, and loans online.

Unlike other candidates Obama's campaign refuses to accept contributions from Washington lobbyists and political action committees.

He is a natural public speaker and motivator. His speech about race was incredible. He even writes takes the time to write out a lot of his speeches.

He proposed a plan that strengthens employer coverage, makes insurance companies accountable and ensures patient choice of doctor and care without government interference.

He will not hesitate to use military force to take out terrorists who pose a threat to America.

will lead a global effort to secure all nuclear weapons materials at vulnerable sites within four years

will strengthen U.S. intelligence collection overseas to identify and interdict would-be bioterrorists before they strike.

will support efforts to strengthen the Civil Liberties Board with subpoena powers and reporting responsibilities, will give them a mandate designed to protect American civil liberties and will demand transparency from the Board to ensure accountability.

He committed not only to rolling back the funding cuts that have affected our first responders - police, firefighters, and emergency medical professionals - but also to increasing federal resources and logistic support to local emergency planning efforts.

He wants to end this pointless, violent war in Iraq.

He does not want to bomb Iran.

He will provide all low and middle-income workers a $500 Making Work Pay tax credit to offset the payroll tax those workers pay in every paycheck.

He will also eliminate taxes for seniors making under $50,000 per year.

He supports Net Nuetrality, to ensure an open internet for all and not just the huge companies that can afford the traffic.

One of Obama's first acts will be reversing the 2003 ban on enrolling modest-income veterans, which has denied care to a million veterans.

He will crack down on employers who commit job discrimination against guardsmen and reservists.

He's a co-sponsor of the Stem Cell Research Enhancement Act of 2007, which would allow research of human embryonic stem cells derived from embryos donated (with consent) from in vitro fertilization clinics.

He has been a consistent champion of reproductive choice and will make preserving women's rights under Roe v. Wade a priority as President. He opposes any constitutional amendment to overturn the Supreme Court's decision in that case.

He wants to preserve Social Security by stopping any efforts to privatize it.

He disagrees with about 90% of Rufus' views.


Things I like about John McCain

He loves his country


Things I like about Sarah Palin
“To a rational mind, nothing is inexplicable. Only unexplained.”
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:53PM
rufus_edge at 5:03PM, Oct. 24, 2008
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The problem with your statement is that he did not adopt a child because he wanted sympathy. He did it because he's a good person.
In fact, I guess “Democratic logic” worked on you because you think he's bad for doing that.
He hasn't been bragging about it or even mentioning it. It hasn't been everywhere in the news. You haven't even heard about it. In fact, a dirty campaign trick by Karl Rove that involved twisting this fact may have cost him the nomination in 2000.
But I guess it worked on you.

Excuse me?
He will do all those things? Based on what? Based on promises? Or based on things he hasn't had any experience doing in the past but thinks he can do because he's Jesus 2.0?
Although those are not necessarily lies, they're not facts.

John McCain will prevent another Holocaust by preventing Israel from being hit by a nuclear bomb from Iran.
John McCain will prevent Iran and North Korea from developing nuclear weapons.
John McCain will turn our economy around.
John McCain will prevent a socialist takeover of our economy.
John McCain will fix our flawed education system.
John McCain will decrease crime rates to the lowest levels ever.
John McCain will restore sanity to the Supreme Court.
John McCain will make gas prices go down.
John McCain will make food prices go down.
John McCain will help Iraq become one of our strongest allies and a role model for every country in the Middle East.
John McCain will win the war on terror.
John McCain will prevent a single American job from being sent to another country.
John McCain will eliminate our dependence on foreign oil.
John McCain will impeach Nancy Pelosi.
John McCain will end employment discrimination.
John McCain will end hate crimes.
John McCain will end racial profiling.
John McCain will end deceptive voting practices.
John McCain will win the war on drugs.
John McCain will make our teachers and schools the best in the world.
John McCain will strengthen our alliances.
John McCain will fix social security.
John McCain will create millions of new jobs.
John McCain will strengthen states rights.
John McCain will strengthen civil rights.
John McCain will make our national defense so amazing that we will never be hit with another terrorist attack ever again.
John McCain will end all discrimination against all types of people.
John McCain will end all illegal immigration.
John McCain will fix No Child Left Behind.
John McCain will make Cuba, North Korea, Vietnam, Russia, and China perfect democratic, capitalist countries and some of our greatest allies.
John McCain will magically make it unnecessary to bomb Iran.
John McCain will make the rest of the world love us.
John McCain will ensure that all of the energy comes from nuclear power by 2010 and it doesn't cause any harmful effects on the environment.
John McCain will make the media unbiased.
John McCain will greatly improve our methods of gathering intelligence without doing anything illegal or immoral.
John McCain will end malaria.
John McCain will end world hunger.
John McCain will find a cure for AIDS.
John McCain will make sure every car made in the US by 2010 costs less than $10,000 and runs on nothing at all.

John Mccain will find Osama bin Laden in 10 days and make him a respected college professor in Chicago.

John Mccain will make spang stop thinking that opinions are facts and lying is okay.


See what I mean?
You can cite things he's voted for or specific plans he has outlined.
You cannot cite opinions or bullshit.

last edited on July 14, 2011 3:12PM
SpANG at 6:14PM, Oct. 24, 2008
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It's funny that you think your post that is peppered with “He recognizes”, “He supports”, and “He believes” holds any more validity than what I posted (“he will” ).

Everything I posted Obama supports, recognizes, and believes. I like him because I believe he will do these things. I do not like McCain because I do not believe he will do any of the stuff I want to see, and he will do the stuff I don't want to see.

Yeah, I could have mixed qualifying statements like you did, but I find that deceptive. BOTH POSTS were at least 90% opinion, 10% fact.


And please… the whole Obama = Jesus thing is really childish and stupid thing to say. That's like me saying Palin can't do an interview without her daddy beside her.


“To a rational mind, nothing is inexplicable. Only unexplained.”
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:53PM
isukun at 6:18PM, Oct. 24, 2008
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The problem with your statement is that he did not adopt a child because he wanted sympathy. He did it because he's a good person.

I'm not talking about sympathy for himself. There are also a couple of other problems with the scenario. First of all, John McCain wasn't the one who decided to adopt the child, his wife was. As a politician, it's not like he could say “no” when she comes home with a new baby. The second is that the McCain Campaign has no qualms about embellishing or even making up lies about the adoption to help further McCain's career. That strikes me as a bit shallow.

He hasn't been bragging about it or even mentioning it. It hasn't been everywhere in the news.

Actually, it does pop up here and there in the news, particularly when publications run stories or interviews of Cindy McCain. It's amazing how her story suddenly changed in 2008. And I have seen mention of it on TV at least three times in the last month and I hardly even watch the news. While he may not be talking about it in his speeches, his campaign felt compelled to give the “embellished” story on his web site (until someone called them on it and it got changed).

And quite honestly this has nothing to do with political affiliations, so I don't know where you're getting the “Democratic Logic” BS from (I'm not even a Democrat). Generally when you adopt a child you don't emphasize that the child is adopted and that seems to be Bridget's defining characteristic on his web site. Funny how he doesn't do that for the other two.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:04PM
rufus_edge at 7:07PM, Oct. 24, 2008
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The “Democratic logic” was a reference to something stupid that spang said.
If he was bragging about it, everybody would know about it.
Everybody does not know about it, hence what happpened in 2000.

Who called Obama the messiah?
Louis Farrakhan did.


Universal Health Care fails in Hawaii:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/10/17/hawaii.health.ap/index.html
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:12PM
SpANG at 7:21PM, Oct. 24, 2008
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rufus_edge
The “Democratic logic” was a reference to something stupid that spang said.
Because of you “guilt by association” smears. Yeah.
rufus_edge
Who called Obama the messiah?
Louis Farrakhan did.
And you repeated it. It makes you both childish and stupid then.
rufus_edge
Universal Health Care fails in Hawaii:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/10/17/hawaii.health.ap/index.html
… And? Obama doesn't want universal health care. We wants more regulation with private health care and the OPTION for tax payers to get the same health care he and McCain enjoy in the government on our dime. Perhaps you should actually read up on his policies before trashing them.
“To a rational mind, nothing is inexplicable. Only unexplained.”
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:53PM
rufus_edge at 7:34PM, Oct. 24, 2008
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spang
It makes you both childish and stupid then.
*coughpersonalattackcough*

So now you agree with McCain on healthcare, stem cell research, defense, No Child Left Behind, preparing and rewarding teachers…

“The time has come for universal health care in America,” Obama said at a conference of Families USA, a health care advocacy group.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-01-25-obama-health_x.htm
http://obama.senate.gov/speech/070125-the_time_has_co/

Are you going to call obama.senate.gov a biased right-wing source now?
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:12PM
SpANG at 7:46PM, Oct. 24, 2008
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rufus_edge
So now you agree with McCain on …stem cell research, defense, No Child Left Behind, preparing and rewarding teachers…
Who wouldn't? It comes down to trusting the candidate to ACTUALLY DO IT. Dubya said he'd do it too (less the stem cell research). This may come as a total shock to you, but John McCain didn't think any of those policies up. ;)

Thier healthcare policies are TOTALLY different though. McCain's sucks eggs.
rufus_edge
“The time has come for universal health care in America,” Obama said at a conference of Families USA, a health care advocacy group.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-01-25-obama-health_x.htm
http://obama.senate.gov/speech/070125-the_time_has_co/

Are you going to call obama.senate.gov a biased right-wing source now?
Nope. Your perception of “universal health care” is some sort of socialist bullcrap (or, at leats that how you want to sell it). Obama wants health care for every citizen with a policy that is clearly written out on his website. I don't see anything wrong with that.
“To a rational mind, nothing is inexplicable. Only unexplained.”
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:53PM
dueeast at 7:52PM, Oct. 24, 2008
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Can I offer a little Middle of the Road logic here? This is getting ridiculous, whereas it was getting interesting for a while.

The only things candidates can do when they become President is TRY. The President can be overridden by the House and Senate unless the President has sufficient support to get his (or her) agendas passed. And with the exception of 9-11-01 Legislation giving the President the authority to go to war and the $700+ Million Corporate/Bank Welfare Act of 2008, which everyone hopes will eventually do some good, I haven't seen the Senate work quickly or efficiently at much of anything.

Barack Obama can TRY to end discrimation and a world of social ills (and I wish him well should he win)

John McCain can TRY to prevent Iran and North Korea from having nuclear bombs and Iran's targeting Israel (and I stand firmly with Israel, even though it's not perfect), it doesn't mean he will succeed (though it would clearly be disastrous for nuclear weapons to decimate the Middle East and beyond).

All a President can do is TRY to gather enough support for a measure to see it passed and made law. Even Presidential privilege orders can later be overturned if the courts deem them unconstitutional or illegal, if that is pursued.

Neither Barack Obama nor John McCain will herald in a new Golden Age of either Liberalism or Conservativism (McCain isn't even a conservative).

So let's try to keep our feet planted firmly on the ground and bring our vision for humanity down from the clouds, okay?

That way, we can TRY to have a civilized and rational discussion and debate.

Thanks for reading this. B)
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:18PM
SpANG at 8:00PM, Oct. 24, 2008
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It's useless arguing, anyway. This thread isn't going to change anyone's mind.

GOBAMABIDEN '08!
“To a rational mind, nothing is inexplicable. Only unexplained.”
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:53PM
Knuckles at 8:11PM, Oct. 24, 2008
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As an American woman, I would feel ashamed to have someone like Palin to be up in the White House as VP. I mean, I give her props for trying, but she's proven time and time again that she's not cut out for VP material. But just because she fails doesn't mean that women in general can't make good VPs. Hell, I bet Michelle would make an awesome VP than Palin and she wouldn't even have to try.

The world is watching these elections and the majority of the global surveys show that people outside the US want Barack to win. It's really not rocket science here. Too many Americans are stubborn, I guess.

Myth Xaran (manga) - http://www.drunkduck.com/Myth_Xaran
Exodus Studios (Games & More) - http://www.exodus-studio.com
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:19PM
Ronson at 8:16PM, Oct. 24, 2008
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This will be my third post in regards to McCain's terrorist ties, which has been ignored so far I can only assume that these FACTS (that McCain has ties to people who were terrorists, funded terrorists and lobbied for terrorists (by the very loose definitions we use these days) and that he has befriended some, taken money from some and used some as advisers in his campaign), I can only assume the FACTS are something that are easier to ignore than address without looking like a flaming hypocrite.

But let's add another, shall we?

McCain's Private Visit With Chilean Dictator Pinochet Revealed For First Time

Some highlights:

Someone
According to a declassified U.S. Embassy cable secured by The Huffington Post, McCain described the meeting with Pinochet “as friendly and at times warm, but noted that Pinochet does seem obsessed with the threat of communism.” McCain, a member of the House Foreign Affairs Committee at the time, made no public or private statements critical of the dictatorship, nor did he meet with members of the democratic opposition in Chile, as far as could be determined from a thorough check of U.S. and Chilean newspaper records and interviews with top opposition leaders.

At the time of the meeting, in the late afternoon of December 30, the U.S. Justice Department was seeking the extradition of two close Pinochet associates for an act of terrorism in Washington DC, the 1976 assassination of former ambassador to the U.S. and former Foreign Minister Orlando Letelier. The car bombing on Sheridan Circle in the U.S. capital was widely described at the time as the most egregious act of international terrorism perpetrated on U.S. soil by a foreign power.

At the time of McCain's meeting with Pinochet, Chile's democratic opposition was desperately seeking support from democratic leaders around the world in an attempt to pressure Pinochet to allow a return to democracy and force a peaceful end to the dictatorship, already in its 12th year. Other U.S. congressional leaders who visited Chile made public statements against the dictatorship and in support of a return to democracy, at times becoming the target of violent pro-Pinochet demonstrations.

Someone
On September 11, 1973, Army General Pinochet led a bloody coup that overthrew the democratically elected government of President Salvador Allende. The four-man military junta that seized power bombed the presidential palace, padlocked the congress, outlawed all political activity and actively persecuted its opponents. Pinochet remained in power until 1990 and in 2006 he was charged with 36 counts of kidnapping, 23 counts of torture and one count of murder. He was spared a trial for health reasons and died at age 91 in December 2006.

Sounds like your definition of a terrorist to me. And McCain met him with no preconditions. And made no demands of Pinochet for a return to democracy.

I fully expect you to ignore this new terrorist link as well.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:10PM
ozoneocean at 8:32PM, Oct. 24, 2008
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NickGuy
ozoneocean
lothar
don't you think it's strange that palin said obama pals around with terroristS ? plural ? who's the other terrorist ? i think it was intentional , kinda subliminal way to get it in peoples minds that obama is a terrorist too.
Yeah, it's just another example of that nasty Palin's way of hitting bellow the belt, acting and lying in front of camera; acting dumb and “homey”, lying to make herself look so revoltingly wholesomely WASPish in a creepy way, like one of those 1950's women in a soap ad, a Stepford wife… Except with her it's VP Barbie.

It would have been better if McCain had tied himself to someone more genuine and real, no matter how right wing or conservative. Anything's better than a cardboard cut-out pretend politician… she's like a Hollywood version of one.

That's the shame of it. Contrast that with how McCain used to be: principled, bipartisan, averse to bellow the belt attacks… As a politician he actually looked sort of honourable but as this campaign has worn on he's progressively let more and more of that let go and I think that's one of the main reasons he's going to lose.
And good on Obama camp for not losing it the same way he has.
wow…all because she put an s after a word?
lol! no.
It's to do whaat this thread was created to address: the choice of her as a VP candidate.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:32PM
Vindibudd at 8:49PM, Oct. 24, 2008
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Why don't you say he will fart lollipops and walk on water as well. His positions on 90 percent of what you just threw out there are diametrically opposed.

Better idea: Tell us how he is going to accomplish any of this because he has no record of anything remotely approaching accomplishment so far. On the other hand, McCain does have a record supporting all of his positions.

Is Obama even a US citizen? If so then why can't he provide a vault birth certificate?

SpANG
Things I like about Barack Obama

He will strengthen Civil Rights
He will combat Employment Discrimination
He will expand Hate Crimes Statutes
He will end Deceptive Voting Practices
He will end Racial Profiling
He will reduce Crime Recidivism by Providing Ex-Offender Support
He will eliminate Sentencing Disparities
He will expand Use of Drug Courts

He will invest in a 21st Century Military
He will build Defense Capabilities for the 21st Century
He will restore the Readiness of the National Guard and Reserves
He will develop Whole of Government Initiatives to Promote Security
He will restore Our Alliances
He will reform Contracting

He will provide Americans with disabilities with the educational opportunities they need to succeed.
He will end discrimination and promote equal opportunity.

He will provide Middle Class Americans Tax Relief
He supports Small Businesses
He will protect Homeownership and Crack Down on Mortgage Fraud
He will create a Universal Mortgage Credit
He will address Predatory Credit Card Practices
He will reform Bankruptcy Laws
He will ensure Freedom to Unionize and Protect Striking Workers
He'll raise the Minimum Wage to $9.50 an Hour by 2011
He'll enact a Windfall Profits Tax to Provide a $1,000 Emergency Energy Rebate to American Families

He will expand the Family and Medical Leave Act
He will double funding for the main federal support for afterschool programs
He will expand Flexible Work Arrangements

The typical middle class family will receive well over $1,000 in tax relief under the Obama plan, and will pay tax rates that are 20% lower than they faced under President Reagan.

He introduced the STOP FRAUD Act to increase penalties for mortgage fraud and provide more protections for low-income homebuyers, well before the current subprime crisis began.

He sponsored legislation to combat predatory payday loans, and he also was credited with lobbying the state to more closely regulate some of the most egregious predatory lending practices.

He will reform No Child Left Behind
He will make Math and Science Education a national priority

He supports outreach programs like GEAR UP, TRIO and Upward Bound to encourage more young people from low-income families to consider and prepare for college.

He will recruit, prepare, retain, and reward America's teachers

He will put 1 million Plug-In Hybrid cars – cars that can get up to 150 miles per gallon – on the road by 2015, cars that we will work to make sure are built here in America.

He will ensure 10 percent of our electricity comes from renewable sources by 2012, and 25 percent by 2025.


He will make White House Communications Public


He plans to have periodic national broadband townhall meetings to discuss issues before their agencies.

He will nullify the Bush attempts to make the timely release of presidential records more difficult.

He helped passed a law to create a Google-like search engine to allow regular people to approximately track federal grants, contracts, earmarks, and loans online.

Unlike other candidates Obama's campaign refuses to accept contributions from Washington lobbyists and political action committees.

He is a natural public speaker and motivator. His speech about race was incredible. He even writes takes the time to write out a lot of his speeches.

He proposed a plan that strengthens employer coverage, makes insurance companies accountable and ensures patient choice of doctor and care without government interference.

He will not hesitate to use military force to take out terrorists who pose a threat to America.

will lead a global effort to secure all nuclear weapons materials at vulnerable sites within four years

will strengthen U.S. intelligence collection overseas to identify and interdict would-be bioterrorists before they strike.

will support efforts to strengthen the Civil Liberties Board with subpoena powers and reporting responsibilities, will give them a mandate designed to protect American civil liberties and will demand transparency from the Board to ensure accountability.

He committed not only to rolling back the funding cuts that have affected our first responders - police, firefighters, and emergency medical professionals - but also to increasing federal resources and logistic support to local emergency planning efforts.

He wants to end this pointless, violent war in Iraq.

He does not want to bomb Iran.

He will provide all low and middle-income workers a $500 Making Work Pay tax credit to offset the payroll tax those workers pay in every paycheck.

He will also eliminate taxes for seniors making under $50,000 per year.

He supports Net Nuetrality, to ensure an open internet for all and not just the huge companies that can afford the traffic.

One of Obama's first acts will be reversing the 2003 ban on enrolling modest-income veterans, which has denied care to a million veterans.

He will crack down on employers who commit job discrimination against guardsmen and reservists.

He's a co-sponsor of the Stem Cell Research Enhancement Act of 2007, which would allow research of human embryonic stem cells derived from embryos donated (with consent) from in vitro fertilization clinics.

He has been a consistent champion of reproductive choice and will make preserving women's rights under Roe v. Wade a priority as President. He opposes any constitutional amendment to overturn the Supreme Court's decision in that case.

He wants to preserve Social Security by stopping any efforts to privatize it.

He disagrees with about 90% of Rufus' views.


Things I like about John McCain

He loves his country


Things I like about Sarah Palin
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:42PM
Vindibudd at 9:11PM, Oct. 24, 2008
(online)
posts: 416
joined: 1-29-2006
Rufus Rufus Rufus, my man. You don't understand, Spang and Ronson ARE socialists. They WANT the country to be taken over by socialists. They believe that the wealthy people in this country didn't get there by earning it, they got there because they stole and cheated. The point is that no one can be successful in this country so what we have to do is make sure that everyone is equally unsuccessful. You know, you and me, we don't go about our lives every day being mad that someone out there has a lot of money cause you and I both know that what those people do don't have any bearing on our lives. We also know that this country is an example of people actually taking responsibility for their own lives and working hard and enjoying the fruits of their labor.

People like Spang and Ronson, they believe that the government is the highest good, where you and me, we believe that the human spirit is the highest good, we believe that governments should be afraid of their people, not the other way around (to borrow a phrase).

Yeah you and me, bro, we think that the color of your skin doesn't matter, but Spang and Ronson, they are all about counting how many blacks and whites and purples there are because they are about what people look like and not who people are as individuals.

Suffer me an example if you will:
Take for example Ronson's comic Gods of ArrKelaan (Myself a proud owner of a print copy).

Would GoA be a better comic if the colorist was Black? Would it matter? Would, I don't know, the stories be more enriching and creative if the writer was Asian?

You know, if rich people pay more than the 50% tax rate that they already pay, would GoA be a better comic?

Well you and I both know that that would not be the case. The comic is as great as it is because Ronson busts his ass doing the best comic he can. Ronson sells copies of it because of his hard work. I don't think it would be fair if Ronson were forced to give me 50% of the profits he makes on GoA because I have never published a Vindibudd comic.

It would be silly of me to demand that Platinum Studios take all the rights to all the comics on DD and then spread out the money to me and you and penis and dueeast when Ronson was doing all that work. Would that be fair? Would that be right?

Well Ronson thinks it would, otherwise he wouldn't think it were okay to do what Obama wants to do with everyone else.

Obama, he is about punishing everything about the what makes the American experiment so wonderful.

So don't try to argue American values with people who love the idea of the what became Soviet Union or Cuba. You're not going to get anywhere.

rufus_edge
John McCain will prevent a socialist takeover of our economy.

last edited on July 14, 2011 4:42PM
Ronson at 9:13PM, Oct. 24, 2008
(online)
posts: 837
joined: 1-1-2006
Vindibudd
Is Obama even a US citizen? If so then why can't he provide a vault birth certificate?

This is easily the dumbest argument I've ever heard of, and I know you don't actually patronize all those right wing media outlets, Vindi, but you certainly play the same tunes all the time.

The Liberal dumbest argument is that McCain isn't a citizen because he was born in Panama before the military base was officially established or something stupid like that.

Seriously. His mother is an American. He was born in Hawaii. He's been vetted for his government positions.

Someone
The Truth About Barack’s Birth Certificate

Smears claiming Barack Obama doesn’t have a birth certificate aren’t actually about that piece of paper — they’re about manipulating people into thinking Barack is not an American citizen.

The truth is, Barack Obama was born in the state of Hawaii in 1961, a native citizen of the United States of America.

Next time someone talks about Barack’s birth certificate, make sure they see this page.



I assume you have some idiotic conspiracy theory included in that “vaulted” description. The simple fact is that right wingnuts never admit when their wrong.

I previously would have thought even this nutty attack was beneath anyone but the most insane media pundits on FOX.

But go ahead, vomit your rebuttal here about how this is a fake birth certificate and Obama's actually a … what? … secret agent Muslim African terrorist?

Lame. Oh yeah, you can read the SNOPES ARTICLE 1 and SNOPES ARTICLE 2 about it as well, not that that will change the mind of those who really need to feel that Barack is “other” than what he says he is.

By the way, still no responses to McCain's much closer personal and financial ties to terrorists yet? C'mon! There's got to be something you can grab from Free Republic about it, right?
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:10PM
Knuckles at 10:22PM, Oct. 24, 2008
(offline)
posts: 436
joined: 2-15-2006
I rest my case.

Myth Xaran (manga) - http://www.drunkduck.com/Myth_Xaran
Exodus Studios (Games & More) - http://www.exodus-studio.com
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:19PM
SpANG at 10:44PM, Oct. 24, 2008
(online)
posts: 3,105
joined: 1-1-2006
Yeah, I'm socialist, Ronson is socialist, Obama is socialist…. Oh, McCain is too. Or rather he was, until he flip flopped on this and several issues to pander to the right.




If Kerry did something like that 4 years ago, you'd talk about it for weeks. ;)
“To a rational mind, nothing is inexplicable. Only unexplained.”
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:53PM
Vindibudd at 11:04PM, Oct. 24, 2008
(online)
posts: 416
joined: 1-29-2006
Lol, I knew you would come with that Ronson and that cute image there is not what I am talking about. It's coming out man, just wait, it is coming.

Ronson
Vindibudd
Is Obama even a US citizen? If so then why can't he provide a vault birth certificate?

This is easily the dumbest argument I've ever heard of, and I know you don't actually patronize all those right wing media outlets, Vindi, but you certainly play the same tunes all the time.

The Liberal dumbest argument is that McCain isn't a citizen because he was born in Panama before the military base was officially established or something stupid like that.

Seriously. His mother is an American. He was born in Hawaii. He's been vetted for his government positions.

Someone
The Truth About Barack’s Birth Certificate

Smears claiming Barack Obama doesn’t have a birth certificate aren’t actually about that piece of paper — they’re about manipulating people into thinking Barack is not an American citizen.

The truth is, Barack Obama was born in the state of Hawaii in 1961, a native citizen of the United States of America.

Next time someone talks about Barack’s birth certificate, make sure they see this page.



I assume you have some idiotic conspiracy theory included in that “vaulted” description. The simple fact is that right wingnuts never admit when their wrong.

I previously would have thought even this nutty attack was beneath anyone but the most insane media pundits on FOX.

But go ahead, vomit your rebuttal here about how this is a fake birth certificate and Obama's actually a … what? … secret agent Muslim African terrorist?

Lame. Oh yeah, you can read the SNOPES ARTICLE 1 and SNOPES ARTICLE 2 about it as well, not that that will change the mind of those who really need to feel that Barack is “other” than what he says he is.

By the way, still no responses to McCain's much closer personal and financial ties to terrorists yet? C'mon! There's got to be something you can grab from Free Republic about it, right?
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:42PM
Vindibudd at 11:09PM, Oct. 24, 2008
(online)
posts: 416
joined: 1-29-2006

Okay well tell me how you are not a socialist, like for example, what are some economic policies that you endorse that are not socialist. I mean, there's nothing wrong with admitting that you are a socialist if you are one. Am I right?

SpANG
Yeah, I'm socialist, Ronson is socialist, Obama is socialist…. Oh, McCain is too. Or rather he was, until he flip flopped on this and several issues to pander to the right.

last edited on July 14, 2011 4:42PM
rufus_edge at 11:22PM, Oct. 24, 2008
(online)
posts: 131
joined: 10-25-2007
dueeast,
I think you misunderstood what I was doing in one of my posts. I was deliberately being ridiculous to show spang how ridiculous he was being.

Universal healthcare is universal healthcare.
I didn't say anything else.

Here's the thing about the birth certificate. Keep in mind that Berg is a lifelong Democrat and the former Deputy Attorney General of Pennsylvania. It's a lot less crazy than it sounds if you think about it.


But I guess we'll know in a few days.

http://xenon.arcticus.com/barack-obama-birth-certificate-image-tampering-analysis
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2008/07/atlas-exclusive.html

I'm not saying he's not a natural born citizen, but I do think it's interesting.

And fightthesmears.com did lie about him not ever being a Muslim. They originally said that he had never been a Muslim. I don't have any problem at all about him ever being a Muslim, but I find it disturbing that he would lie. I also find it disrespectful to Muslims. His father was a Muslim at least at one time, his stepfather was a Muslim, and he was enrolled in school in Indonesia as a Muslim when he was a child.
In Obama's autobiography, “Dreams From My Father,” he acknowledged studying the Quran and describes the public school as “a Muslim school.”
Barack Obama
“In the Muslim school, the teacher wrote to tell mother I made faces during Quranic studies,”
I know the site's biased, but it is still true:
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=78309
If you type it into Google, you can compare the original quote to what it says now:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=fightthesmears.com+never+been+muslim&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=
The fact that they changed it is an admission that it was false, so you can't trust everything that's on fightthesmears.com.


last edited on July 14, 2011 3:12PM
lothar at 6:43AM, Oct. 25, 2008
(online)
posts: 1,299
joined: 1-3-2006
Someone
Is Obama even a US citizen? If so then why can't he provide a vault birth certificate?

did you ever hear anyone talking about bush or clintons birth certificates ??? white insecurity ! you celebrate the diversity of the country exept every time anybody not white tries to level up, a bunch of racist assholes spread fear and suspicion about them !
i guess its to be expected when you're about to beat the final boss !

and what the hell is wrong with a little socialism ? do you people who fear it even know what it is ?

OBAMA 08 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Obama is also the name of a town in Japan
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:45PM
SpANG at 7:14AM, Oct. 25, 2008
(online)
posts: 3,105
joined: 1-1-2006
HAHAHAHAA!

Do you guys even know who Phillip J Berg is??
http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1122023117263

oohhh, hahaha. I would LOVE IT if this got press. You go ahead and hitch McCain to THAT wagon. I'll just sit back and enjoy the firey crash. :)
“To a rational mind, nothing is inexplicable. Only unexplained.”
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:53PM
Ronson at 8:16AM, Oct. 25, 2008
(online)
posts: 837
joined: 1-1-2006
Do you notice how both vindi and rufus refuse to address McCain's terrorist ties?

This is how they work. When they lose an argument, or if there's an issue they don't want to address they change the subject. We've gone from Palin to birth certificates (which is such a stretch, I have to say that any hope I had for these two debating even somewhat rationally has dropped considerably), with Barack's defenders making their case the whole way and nothing but opinion and smears from the other side.

Everyone, I beg you, drop all issues until Vindi and Rufus address McCain's terrorist ties, and then explain why his terrorist ties aren't more frightening than anything they smear Obama with.

Until they address it, just respond to their smears as such:

Someone
What about McCain's terrorist ties?

It's long past time that they defend THEIR candidate.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:10PM
Vindibudd at 9:02AM, Oct. 25, 2008
(online)
posts: 416
joined: 1-29-2006

Well Ronson, list them all together again for me because I haven't been reading all your posts in this thread and I will look at it and tell you why it is different from Obama paling around with a domestic terrorist.

Ronson
Do you notice how both vindi and rufus refuse to address McCain's terrorist ties?

This is how they work. When they lose an argument, or if there's an issue they don't want to address they change the subject. We've gone from Palin to birth certificates (which is such a stretch, I have to say that any hope I had for these two debating even somewhat rationally has dropped considerably), with Barack's defenders making their case the whole way and nothing but opinion and smears from the other side.

Everyone, I beg you, drop all issues until Vindi and Rufus address McCain's terrorist ties, and then explain why his terrorist ties aren't more frightening than anything they smear Obama with.

Until they address it, just respond to their smears as such:

Someone
What about McCain's terrorist ties?

It's long past time that they defend THEIR candidate.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:42PM

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