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Scientists misleading...
seventy2 at 3:21PM, Nov. 23, 2009
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CRU servers Hacked(examiner)

I'm tempted to post this in the Debate forum.

Emails between some of the largest names for global warming have been revealed, as they discuss how to change the numbers to insinuate Human cause for global warming…rather than a natural cycle.
facara
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I'm gonna love you till the money comes, half of it's gonna be mine someday.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:30PM
Hawk at 4:38PM, Nov. 23, 2009
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This could be a pretty serious deal, but the problem here is that the hacked files can't really be verified in any way. The earliest source of the emails says he got them from a source that sounds kind of dubious to me.

But I'd love to know the truth on this topic. Scientists who work and study in the climate change field have a lot to gain through research dollars, so it's not like it isn't feasible. However it's just as feasible for somebody who opposes the climate change agenda to cook something like this up.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:47PM
ozoneocean at 4:49PM, Nov. 23, 2009
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It's a fart in a bath-tub. Those poor people are talking about trying to put an amazingly complicated, amazingly important case to the uninformed, flat out morons, the openly hostile, as well as people who know it to be true but actively try and undermine it.

That's extremely stiff opposition. These e-mails aren't about them falsifying facts, at al. It's about them discussing how best to put that case in the face of insurmountable opposition.

Personally I'd be MUCH more interested in the e-mails of the so-called “sceptics”. ;)
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:35PM
seventy2 at 5:13PM, Nov. 23, 2009
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The server hack has been verified by the CRU, and other sources.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8370282.stm
facara
Running Anew an exercise blog.
I'm gonna love you till the money comes, half of it's gonna be mine someday.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:30PM
lba at 6:50PM, Nov. 23, 2009
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I dunno Oz. I've always thought that it seems like it's maybe not as much of a big deal as they make it out to be. I mean, I know the average temperature has risen, but it seems to me that there's a lot of screaming about how we're all gonna die and how we should all quit using cars immediately, like it's the only solution possible. I get the feeling there's probably a lot of people out there who do talk about how to keep the skeptics from getting their say too. Global warming is kind of one of those topics where everyone thinks they're right and that anyone else is just some blowhard with nothing more than opinions.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:29PM
lothar at 7:15PM, Nov. 23, 2009
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yea. i cant wait till someone catches those dirty scientists faking all the glacier and polar cap meltage too.
lets burn down the observatory so this never happens again !!!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:45PM
Orin J Master at 7:21PM, Nov. 23, 2009
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it doesn't have any direct quotes, the guy that brought them the information has no idea if it's actually real, and they don't really say that there's anything that claims global warmings source, just how to market the concept to mouth-breathing jackanapes.

this is in the right section.

also, given the timeframe things like the entire frigging biosphere operate on, it's usually safe to assume that we need to avoid causing a problem that will render the planet unfit for human habitation (note the word human) long before we can actually tell we're causing a problem.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:22PM
ozoneocean at 8:55PM, Nov. 23, 2009
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lba
Global warming is kind of one of those topics where everyone thinks they're right and that anyone else is just some blowhard with nothing more than opinions.
No, it's not.
It's a name for a global climate phenomenon that the vast majority of experts in the field subscribe to.

The “sceptics” fall into a number of groups:
-People in the exact same league as those that deny evolution. (most false experts)
-The ignorant and mildly cynical. (the general public)
-The wishful thinkers. (more general public)
-The vested interests. (big business and the politicians and scientists they've bought)

They're not really “sceptics” so much as “deniers”.

One of the most stupid and hilarious things is when people claim there's some sort of equality of division between the two “sides”. And when you hear flat out rubbish like “vested interests on both sides” you don't know weather to laugh at such stupidity or moan in despair. T____T
-Most of the deniers are the biggest, most wealthy businesses and business people and politicians ans scientists tied to them that are super heavy polluters.

The so-called “vested interests” these tools refer to on the “other side” of the equation are either scientists who would be making the same money regardless or MORE if they actually supported the deniers, or piffling alternative energy schemes and projects that really do not make anywhere near the scale of money on the denier businesses.

Follow the money man. That's all you need to do.
The REAL money.

———————–
People fudging the issue get worse and worse every time. I notice that the latest (?) James Bond film, idiotic as those films are anyway these days, specifically had the green interest groups and alternative energy people as the amoral, evil murdering, torturing, raping, super villains. lol!

These cretin deniers are the sort of people who would characterise greenies as torturing, raping, murdering greedy villains. Get real.
A case of the pot calling the kettle a pot. ;)
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:35PM
seventy2 at 3:20AM, Nov. 24, 2009
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but fudging numbers to garner support? i'm not denying global climate change and neither were the people who hacked the server. not everyone is saying that this disproves global warming. they were simply exposing two big names screwing the system to get money. Just like you said, follow the money.

and i say climate change, because i honestly have no idea what's going on…with one of the coolest summers on record, with a snow in real early october (not just any snow, there was 2-3 inches on the ground, which is highly unusual for even early november) and then followed by a mild november.
facara
Running Anew an exercise blog.
I'm gonna love you till the money comes, half of it's gonna be mine someday.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:30PM
ozoneocean at 3:47AM, Nov. 24, 2009
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seventy2
but fudging numbers to garner support? i'm not denying global climate change and neither were the people who hacked the server. not everyone is saying that this disproves global warming. they were simply exposing two big names screwing the system to get money. Just like you said, follow the money.
This is just what I'm talking about. The idea that scientists would mislead people and invent facts, fudge figures on climate change just to get money is frankly moronic.
If they were JUST interested in money they could rake in millions (literally)from hundreds of lobby groups and big businesses that would kill for the cred their names would lend them.
The pay they get from research institutions and universities would come to them in any case. They're published scientists, there's not onus one them to support any case. They don't get extra pay for doing what they do. Really, the idea is EXACTLY like Creationists claiming that biologists only support the idea of evolution for money.

When people invent these conspiracies, it's not just that they're not thinking it through: they're deliberately fudging the facts to make their case. lol!
You think these scientists are being dishonest? Well SO are the people putting out this info. ;)
The difference is these genuine climate scientific are trying to make people see reason, because what they're warning people about is just THAT important. The objective of the deniers is to fudge things and make the case look weak- so the short term interest of heavy polluting industry is adequately served and more money is made.

seventy2
and i say climate change, because i honestly have no idea what's going on…with one of the coolest summers on record, with a snow in real early october
That sort of thing is local… there is a massive difference between your regional whether and GLOBAL climate trends.

The clod hard facts are the the climate globally is steadily warming. The icecaps are melting pretty badly.- What happens with all that new cold water flowing into the massive sea currents that affect localised whether patterns? Probably storms, or a cold winter here and there for some selected places. but just like an ice block on your face during a hot day; it makes a difference to you, but not the rest of the world and at the end you'll be left with a cool wet cheek, not a frozen one ;)
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:35PM
seventy2 at 4:15PM, Nov. 24, 2009
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ozoneocean

the CRU confirmed that it was hacked. the CRU didn't claim that the emails were faked, but said “what they really meant to say, is xxxxxx”

A company may pay high for the backing of the scientist, but they aren't going to be able to provide the equipment that a research unit normally has. and there are always those who will do anything for money. or power. imagine being the lead scientist in this, and any entity or company would do anything to have you.
———-

the climate is changing…almost like it's gone in cycles for the past bifty fillion years.
facara
Running Anew an exercise blog.
I'm gonna love you till the money comes, half of it's gonna be mine someday.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:30PM
ozoneocean at 7:08PM, Nov. 24, 2009
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seventy2
SO I have a rational argument here and you respond with that?

And yea, the earth was created in 7 days… :)

——————

1. I'm not disputing the veracity of the e-mails, I'm saying the interpretation of these deniers is deliberately misleading to fudge what these REAL scientists are saying.


2. That's rubbish seventy. Absolute rubbish. DO you imagine that the only decent research facilities out there are at Universities? And that scientists in commercially sponsored labs aren't as highly regarded for their research and published papers? O_O
You're living in the Soviet Union in the 70's…?

3. The climate is currently changing much, much faster than usual.

Go on denying. It's sort of funny in a way. :)
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:35PM
Ochitsukanai at 7:14PM, Nov. 24, 2009
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lothar
yea. i cant wait till someone catches those dirty scientists faking all the glacier and polar cap meltage too.
lets burn down the observatory so this never happens again !!!!!
Nothing can possibly surpass this post. I can so see those nefarious scientists out there on the glaciers with their little hair dryers.

Always, I wanna be with mew, and make believe with mew
and live in harmony harmony oh nyan
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:20PM
seventy2 at 8:47PM, Nov. 24, 2009
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ozoneocean

a scientist working under a company comes out and says that company has a cure all for the latest cancer.

Are you more likely to believe him, or a scientist Working out of a Uni, saying something else?
———-

also, on this note, the emails directly say that they're adding numbers in order for global change to seem more accelerated than it is. No scientist that i know of is denying that somesort of global change is happening.

Let's say DD wanted someone to buy them. But this person distastes manga. Now you're an open and loving community, and if you told them to leave, there'd be a major backlash, and everyone would leave.

but what you can do, as an admin, is only feature western comics for the next 5 weeks. as these western comics are uplifted in the community, they are displayed on the front page in the featured section, and most views. Invariably in light of this sudden western popularity you'll have imitators going for the feature. you still have manga artists and stories, however the figures seem to now point that DD is mostly Western art. but that's only the flashy.

it's what these scientists have done…manipulated the numbers so things appear slightly different.
————————–

at the very least, you must agree that these scientists are no longer credible.

facara
Running Anew an exercise blog.
I'm gonna love you till the money comes, half of it's gonna be mine someday.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:30PM
ozoneocean at 9:39PM, Nov. 24, 2009
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seventy2
1. Many research programs at universities are sponsored by commercial industry and specific government departments anyway Seventy.
Your example of “credibility” is irrelevant in any case, since in THAT instance we were talking about motive. And you suggested money and status.
BOTH can be had in the commercial sector. Money much more so. By the bucket load. ;)
-i.e., all your claims for motive for scientists to make up global warming are… Made up. :)

2. No, that is not what is happening Seventy. That is the fudged up interpretation of various parts of the e-mails by the deniers, so the scientists will look bad.
-Just the same way they're describing what the scientists are meant to be doing.

3. No longer credible? lol!
This makes the deniers look worse, and worse, and worse.
-Just let me hack into all of your personal e-mails, and those of your friends and workmates and watch me construct a selective case over what I release. I'm sure I could make you look like a closet terrorist, paedophile, or any number of socially unacceptable things just by the way I interpret the info- even if I released every single bit of it in one go.

The fact is these cretin deniers have no case, so instead they try and defame the scientists themselves by highly illegal and unethical means.
What's the difference between this and watergate?
Answer- these arseholes got away with their break-in.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:35PM
bravo1102 at 12:11AM, Nov. 25, 2009
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Hey I keep beating this dead horse why isn't it moving?

Seriously though, the emails read like those between most number crunchers. Here are the numbers… how do we interpret them? X=Q, Q+Z(MFMFG) etc…

The global climate may be getting warmer, but wait if we reread the data it's getting colder… Yes, the climate is changing, but it's a bigger system and we do not have all the variables all ironed out. But before we start dismantaling our civilization could we please note that getting rid of every furnace and smokestack in the world might not make any noticable change in the temperature?
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:33AM
ozoneocean at 12:36AM, Nov. 25, 2009
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bravo1102
The global climate may be getting warmer, but wait if we reread the data it's getting colder… Yes, the climate is changing, but it's a bigger system and we do not have all the variables all ironed out. But before we start dismantaling our civilization could we please note that getting rid of every furnace and smokestack in the world might not make any noticable change in the temperature?
The fact that almost all experts on this field conclude that not only is the climate warming but that human release of carbon into the atmosphere is primarily responsible has to tell you something.

What we come back to time and time again are big business interests opposing this, along with people with a classically “conservative” bent (lets not change. Let's just come up with reasons why we don't have to do anything)

It's a simple equation of science VS ignorance.
Again. :(
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:35PM
seventy2 at 4:43AM, Nov. 25, 2009
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all scientists are right, and those that conclude humans aren't any more responsible than any other creature, or natural earth cycles are batshit insane…

and the weather changing completely in a matter of months is dumb, as no science has ever supported it….


———

lol edit for freudian slip
facara
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I'm gonna love you till the money comes, half of it's gonna be mine someday.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:30PM
ozoneocean at 5:17AM, Nov. 25, 2009
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seventy2
all scientists are right
No, of course not.
But with almost all the experts in the the field of climate related studies comming to similar conclusions about climate change, the smart thing to do would be to admit that they probably know what they're talking about ;)
seventy2
and those that conclude humans aren't any more responsible than any other creature, or natural earth cycles are batshit insane…
Greed doesn't make you insane seventy, they just have less scruples.
When you realise that almost none of them are in any field related to the study of climate and many of them are in the direct pay or much of their work is sponsored by heavy polluters or conservative lobby groups who are in turn supported by heavy polluters, the case for the deniers starts to look rather pathetic.
But not half so pathetic as those that believe their guff.

Amazing article BTW…


Very informative. Totally changed my life. :)
Green 404 boxes bear thinking about.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:35PM
bravo1102 at 6:53AM, Nov. 25, 2009
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BUTsSome climatologists are beginning to question their results based on more recent data. That's science. Once science reaches consensus you don't stop researching, accept the answer as a dogma and change the world because of that. New evidence can, has and always will change the consensus corporate interests notwithstanding.

The climate paradigm is slowly changing and the original theory of climate warming based on human CO2 may have been exaggerated. The entire paradigm of the atmosphere before man has just shifted with new evidence about oxygen levels. It's leading to a shift in the models about the current atmosphere.

There have also been studies looking into the effects of implementation of all the proposed changes to reduce carbon dioxide output and a total reversion to a pre-industrial culture would not be enough to change the temperatures.

Then there is that damn sunspot theory that keeps cropping up and more correlation with previous global warming and cooling has been charted.

No, of course it's corporationg. Corporations and capitalism are evil and bad. Man is evil and bad and destroying the world, so the left has their reason to change the world the way they want it so we all become good little vegans living in adobe shacks and farming organically. ;)


Hmmm, that might not be so bad… except those damn Pastoral peoples will start smelting bronze and using leather all over again and destroy our little culture. lol!
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:33AM
ozoneocean at 7:21AM, Nov. 25, 2009
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That's very charming and all bravo, but simply not true. It's the “intelligent Design” compromise theories of some of the deniers.
bravo1102
No, of course it's corporationg. Corporations and capitalism are evil and bad. Man is evil and bad and destroying the world, so the left has their reason to change the world the way they want it so we all become good little vegans living in adobe shacks and farming organically.
The problem with this idea is that some big corporations are starting to come around and many conservative political parties are as well, particularly in Australia and throughout Europe. It's mainly your ultra conservatives and US conservative (who are all ultra) that are on the denier side.

Climate scientists “starting to come around” is as likely as Biologists and geneticists “starting to come round” to intelligent design or creation.
Sorry, but I don't think it'll ever happen, but you go on and keep hoping! :)
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:35PM
lothar at 7:33AM, Nov. 25, 2009
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i think all this “debate” about global warming is part of a bigger problem facing civilization , namely “the subjectivity of reality” wherein people have access to all kinds of theories being presented equally, regardless of their validity. many people begin to dig themselves into intellectual holes in a way, surrounding themselves with the kind of information that makes them feel comfortable. this kind of thinking is not new , but with the advent of the internet and very narrow target audience TV programming , people are able to isolate themselves from conflicting opinions untill they have locked into their veiws.
so while it may be obvious to me that global warming is happenening , you may be in a different hole where all is fine weather .
or where i might believe that reptoids are controlling are politicians , you may belive it is simply corporations pulling the strings .


anyway .. whatever,, that little yellow bird on the green box says it all

WWWWWW
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:45PM
seventy2 at 11:23AM, Nov. 25, 2009
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really? the link works fine for me. maybe those crazy brits just have it out for you australians….It was an article about how the last ice age turned europe from a moderate climate into a frozen wasteland in six months. and from there, it said that if todays global warming happens as said, it'll happen again.

and most scientists believe that the climate is changing. no majority believes any one cause. the most out spoken are the HUMANS DID IT. because they're causing the biggest uproar.

not all people who are “deniers” are “intelligent design”
facara
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I'm gonna love you till the money comes, half of it's gonna be mine someday.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:30PM
Hawk at 2:39PM, Nov. 25, 2009
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You know, I don't disagree with the whole Climate Change thing, but I find it quite troubling that it has reached a point where people aren't allowed to question or challenge the concept. To me that spells scientific stagnation.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:47PM
lba at 4:09PM, Nov. 25, 2009
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ozoneocean
lba
Global warming is kind of one of those topics where everyone thinks they're right and that anyone else is just some blowhard with nothing more than opinions.
No, it's not.

etc. etc.

thread
So on, so forth, a bunch of arguing.

May I present exhibits A-D to you all gentlemen?

I think this thread has become sufficient evidence of my point that the subject of global warming is such a charged topic that we have an excess of people with their own opinions and “evidence” in lieu of actual numbers or observable info.

I'm not denying or supporting anything here. But I am trying to make the point that very few people seem willing to back down and consider the other viewpoint. Hawk might put it a little better, but he's right. Just dismissing everyone else is asking for things to never go anywhere.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:29PM
ozoneocean at 5:01PM, Nov. 25, 2009
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lba
I think this thread has become sufficient evidence of my point that the subject of global warming is such a charged topic that we have an excess of people with their own opinions and “evidence” in lieu of actual numbers or observable info.
lol!

It's an illusion that this is an actual 2 sided debate.

I suppose because most of you guys are in the U.S. you're in a sort of an isolated fairyland about this. The fact is that in the sates the Bush administration actively blocked investigation into climate change and the debate their has been artificially altered to make it look as if things are unresolved in order to help the deniers.

While in the rest of the world things moved on long ago.
It's Very much like the Intelligent design and creation debate in that the main advocates and proponents of those silly ideas come from the U.S. so people there are fooled into thinking there is some debate about evolution when in reality it is only really there that it happens.

So Hawk- Not stagnation, just the reality that most of the world has moved on and you guys are unfortunately stuck in a bit of a “lost world” there. Except the dinosaurs in your case and using oil, not turning into it. :)
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:35PM
seventy2 at 5:46PM, Nov. 25, 2009
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except the scientists in question are british.

And here in america, we believe in global warming so much, the inventor of the internet is on a campaign to stop it. in his SUV.
——————-

btw folks, i'm doing my part, by having a bbq this weekend. we're gonna slaughter some cows. take that cow farts!
facara
Running Anew an exercise blog.
I'm gonna love you till the money comes, half of it's gonna be mine someday.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:30PM
Orin J Master at 9:58PM, Nov. 25, 2009
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ozoneocean
I suppose because most of you guys are in the U.S. you're in a sort of an isolated fairyland about this. The fact is that in the sates the Bush administration actively blocked investigation into climate change and the debate their has been artificially altered to make it look as if things are unresolved in order to help the deniers.

yeah…on behalf of the non-moron types in the states, i'd like to apologize for our government not being helpful…the tell you it isn't going to be anytime soon. the bushies scuttled anything even slightly helpful in that regard before shooting the budget down the the pipes. so, we'll have to get the whole “not falling to third-world levels of unemployment and homelessness” sorted before that really gets turned around proper.

seriously, we tried to get rid of him, but there's a LOT of screaming selfish children that never grew up over here.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:22PM
ozoneocean at 11:26PM, Nov. 25, 2009
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seventy2
except the scientists in question are british.
That had their e-mails hacked? Yes, we all know. What does that change Seventy? Why do you even bring it up?

Give us some more apparent exception…
“except that the scientists all wore pants”?
“except one guy's hair was blonde”?
“except only 10 of them are over 40”?

lol!

The denier movement originates in the U.S., like I've said, your exception doesn't seem to have anything to do with that fact.
Orin J Master
seriously, we tried to get rid of him, but there's a LOT of screaming selfish children that never grew up over here.
It's a shame… :(
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:35PM
Evil_Hare at 6:32AM, Nov. 26, 2009
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The people who believe in global warming are like people who believe in human evolution… They can find out that most ‘prehistoric man skeletons’ are made almost entirely of plaster, and they'll still believe the liars who put them together…

My favorite is Piltdown Man… reconstructed from a single tooth.. which turned out to be the tooth of an extinct species of pig. Second favorite is the fact that no one wants to talk about the fossilized modern human infant skulls found in the same stratum as Afarensis Australopethicus.

The earth moves through temperature cycles.. this past winter was one in which the thickest ice ever was recorded at the poles, and those lovely WWF and Greenpace commercials with the melting ice is film taken in the SUMMER, when some of the ice sheets melt and come apart.

I'm definitely in favor of clean air technology, but at the end of the day you have to question the veracity of the ‘scientific data’ which is backing up the agenda of taxing the hell out of everyone while at the same time creating a new futures market in which the biggest pollution culprits get to make even more money via ‘cap and trade.’

In fact, the same companies pushing for cap and trade, as well as for the so-called global warming treaty which will completely castrate the Constitution, are the same companies which are suppressing technology which would render the whole planet emissions-free.

We live in a period of history in which corporations control governments, and you can trace every last bit of evil and corruption to the big banks and their limitless greed.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:24PM

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