Debate and Discussion

Should Abortion Be Legal?
reconjsh at 10:12AM, March 6, 2007
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Well, since we're debating “RELIGION”, “CURING HOMOSEXUALITY”, “CREATIONISM”, and “DEFENDING YOUR COUNTRY”… all of which are touchy subjects… I figured why not throw another monster into the arena. lol.



Should abortion be legal/illegal?
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:02PM
SpANG at 10:17AM, March 6, 2007
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http://www.drunkduck.com/community/view_topic.php?tid=22267&cid=241

Dang, we really need that search feature back. ;)
“To a rational mind, nothing is inexplicable. Only unexplained.”
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:52PM
subcultured at 11:45AM, March 6, 2007
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isn't abortion legal already, i mean up to a point?
J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:01PM
Atom Apple at 1:41PM, March 6, 2007
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Before three months I believe it's okay but right after that the brain develops and that's when it should be considered a living thing. I think it was three months, anyway.

Basically banning it before that is getting mad because it will soon be something. That's like being angry at someone for not being pregnant which would mean the church would want to tell everyone to have sex and, let's face it, that's not very church-like at all.
i will also like to know you the more
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:03AM
reconjsh at 1:45PM, March 6, 2007
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SpANG
http://www.drunkduck.com/community/view_topic.php?tid=22267&cid=241

Dang, we really need that search feature back. ;)

There's alot of forum features that I'd sure like to see. A Search feature would be nice.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:02PM
Priest_Revan at 8:07PM, March 6, 2007
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Yup.

Abortion should not be used as birth control, though.

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last edited on July 14, 2011 2:48PM
Aurora Moon at 8:17PM, March 6, 2007
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Priest_Revan
Yup.

Abortion should not be used as birth control, though.



I'd like to say that doesn't happen and if it did happen, it'd be rare. sadly, there would be people so stupid enough to use it as that. but on the bright side, if those stupid people does that, then they're actually damaging their own bodies if they contionually used it as an birth control and then pretty soon they'll become competely barren. then at an time when they actually feel ready to have children, they can't.
which would be good, snice stupidty shouldn't be allowed to breed, EVER!!

however, not every woman out there would actually use it as birth control. which seems to be one of the main reasons why some are so competely against abortion, which is just silly.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:09AM
vgman at 9:34PM, March 6, 2007
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im pro abortion the main reson being if a woman gets raped and gets pregnant she should have the right to have an abortion. even if thats not the case im still for it thugh the 2 people involved should be way more carefull about haveing sex. i am NOT for the mindless killing of any age or pre birth. unless virtual.
RIP TD :cry2:
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:40PM
Vagabond at 9:47PM, March 6, 2007
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There's Plan B medication for cases of rape/incest now. Even before that, I was very much pro-life.


… However, since I really doubt that my stance and my opinions are going to change any minds here, so I'll leave it at that.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:38PM
Aurora Moon at 10:06PM, March 6, 2007
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well, sometimes the plan B medication doesn't work too well, so they have to resort to abortion as the final solution.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:09AM
reconjsh at 10:31PM, March 6, 2007
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'AbortionStatistics'
The overwhelming majority of all abortions, (95%), are done as a means of birth control.
Only 1% are performed because of rape or incest;
1% because of fetal abnormalities;
3% due to the mother's health problems.

The above information is from: http://www.abortiontv.com/Misc/AbortionStatistics.htm

I had a hard time finding a precise number of abortions that were for rape/incest/health risks in the US, but every statistic I found gauged it to be 1% to 3%… and in a few cases 5%, but this higher number is typically due to mothers' health risks being estimated at about 2% higher than the other sites.

For sake of arguement, let's take the highest number I could find: 5% in the US. Now, arguing that 5% is a scary debate. There's alot of emotions that can be flung around because rape and incest isn't a very unpleasant subject. So for now, I'll avoid it.

But certainly the 95% who are having abortions that could have avoided preganancy by using some sort of birth control method is ridiculous. It seems barbaric to “suck out” the genetic goo that will become a person if left unaltered in the womb. I mean, who doesn't know that “sex can = prenancy”? Sex is a great hoot and all, but is killing something that will certainly become a human life worth it?

Doesn't seem so to me. I'm willing to argue the merits of legal abortion for rape/incest/health risks… but to defend abortion because you had sex and got a result you aren't ready for and/or that it's a “woman's body” and therefore subject to her sole discretion, for whatever reason, seems evil to me. Just evil.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:02PM
Aurora Moon at 11:03PM, March 6, 2007
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I hate to tell you, but that site seems on par with the PETA website….

they have pictures of abortions, videos and all other material made to gross out or shock people, and on top of it they seem to be spreading a lot of prodngda.

like they said on the side menu when I went to main page, things like: “The news media have a pro-abortion bias, repeatedly failing to report the hidden truth.” AND “Abortion clinics won't inform you – they make millions from abortions and selling the babies!”

and I've researched tons on this topic to make sure that I know where I stand really.
honestly, I've seen a lot of news media seeming to be against abortion more than for it, and on top of it those Abortion clinics, they do not sell babies or anything like that. completely ridiculous.

they also describe horrific scenarios which sounds completely made up. for instance what they described on one page:
Someone
she's been presented with many live fetuses including a set of twins, gasping for air. The doctor exclaimed “Got you some good specimens â?? twins!” The doctor then drowned them. Other times, doctors would break the neck or beat the fetus to death with a pair of tongs.

first of all, that kind of activity is ILLEGAL. all or most abortion clinics are required to not give the woman drug-numbing drugs, but to also give the baby inside the womb some kind of drug which shuts down the baby's systems so that it would be relatively painless, and also kills the baby. it's completely impossible that the babies would actually be alive once they got out of the womb in any REPUTABLE ABORTION CLINIC.

that kind of activity sounds more like it'd be going on in an illegal, back-door abortion clinic.

the more I view stories on that website and comparing that with all of my sound, rock-solid research, the less creditable that website sounds.

and…

please try to find an website that's NEUTRAL to both sides of the issues but providing info from both sides. instead of an website that is so obviously BIASED against abortion.

people who are highly biased against something often offers only an highly skewered view and facts.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:09AM
Aurora Moon at 11:20PM, March 6, 2007
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reconjsh
But certainly the 95% who are having abortions that could have avoided preganancy by using some sort of birth control method is ridiculous. It seems barbaric to “suck out” the genetic goo that will become a person if left unaltered in the womb. I mean, who doesn't know that “sex can = prenancy”? Sex is a great hoot and all, but is killing something that will certainly become a human life worth it?

you seem to be assuming that the majority of people aren't using birth control and pills when they have an “accident” in terms of pregency. you have to take in conidseration the people who in fact, was being responisble by using condoms, etc.
also failing to take into conidseration that sometimes shit just happens, and they get pregant anyway despite all that.

after all, birth control pills aren't 100% effective, nor is condoms. after all, condoms break, don't they?

sure, both combined cuts down on any chances greatly, but sometimes it happens anyway regardless of them using the pills and the condom breaking anyway.

also, abortion isn't just “sucking out” some “genetic goo”. there's many different methods of abortion.
I'm all for the method of abortion which is done at the VERY EARLIEST STAGE of fetus stage, which does not inlove sucking out anything. instead, it simply requres drugs which kills the emybro/fetus and causes the woman to go into an type of labor where she herself pushes out the dead embyro/fetus.
no machine or anything else is used. Just Drugs.

however, I'm not all for just ANY abortions. I don't really like “late” abortions at all, as seeing that's basically when an baby is formed fully inside the womb. by then it's like 8-9 months, and I don't get those people's logic at all.. if they were SO sure that they didn't want it, then why wait so long to do that? at that stage they may just as well as give birth to it and give it away. After all, at that stage it can live outside the mother.
just disgusting.

the earliest stages of the fetus though, they cannot live outside of the mother at all, and is just an formation of cells and tissues.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:09AM
reconjsh at 11:32PM, March 6, 2007
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You completely missed the point Aurora.

I used that site because it had the HIGHEST percentage in favor of the rape/incest/health point. I knew it was biased. I was just trying to find the highest percentage of those kind of rapes quoted on the web.

The point is… the larger percentage… the vast, vast, vast majority of women that get abortions are NOT for incest/rape/health issues.

But go ahead, find me a source that claims higher than 10% lets say. The absolute highest I've found one that suggested 7%. Let's just say 90% of people who get abortions aren't for rape/incest/health reasons. Let's talk about those 90% of women and apply that to my previous post.

Someone
the earliest stages of the fetus though, they cannot live outside of the mother at all, and is just an formation of cells and tissues.

This is the Age of Viability. It means the fetus has about a 50/50 chance of surviving outside the womb. In the U.S., this age is about 22-26 weeks. That's around the end of the 2nd trimester… about 6 months in.

So we can at least agree, after that stage abortion is a no-no Aurora?
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:02PM
reconjsh at 11:37PM, March 6, 2007
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Someone
you seem to be assuming that the majority of people aren't using birth control and pills when they have an “accident” in terms of pregency.

Who cares? The choice is sex. You choose sex, you accept the possiblity that you'll get pregnant. Abortion isn't a remedy for a failed condom or a poor choice to have sex.

If failed contraceptives is your arguement, then you should be an advocate for the morning after pills and things like that. I've read they're 90%+ effective. Combine that with other birth control methods and that probably resolves almost all accidently pregancy.

So your real argument is responsibility.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:02PM
Aurora Moon at 11:48PM, March 6, 2007
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reconjsh
Someone
you seem to be assuming that the majority of people aren't using birth control and pills when they have an “accident” in terms of pregency.

Who cares? The choice is sex. You choose sex, you accept the possiblity that you'll get pregnant. Abortion isn't a remedy for a failed condom or a poor choice to have sex.

If failed contraceptives is your arguement, then you should be an advocate for the morning after pills and things like that. I've read they're 90%+ effective. Combine that with other birth control methods and that probably resolves almost all accidently pregancy.

So your real argument is responsibility.

I agree, there IS the morning after pills.

in some areas, that may not be so easy to acquire. you see, there's plenty of places that allows pharmacists and other druggists to REFUSE to sell morning after pills and other types of conpectives based on their “morals”.

so if an couple was to live in an place, like oh say, Ohio (known for it's bible-thumping people who doesn't even believe in birth control pills)….and their condoms broke. Then.. uh-oh, they're MAJORLY SCREWED.
they just had the bad luck to be born and grown up in an bible-thumping state. so they don't know for sure if they had an “accident” or not….they can't even take morning after pills because they sure don't as hell sell it around there.
no way to make sure. just to wait… and then it's too late expect to have an abortion.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:09AM
reconjsh at 11:56PM, March 6, 2007
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then we should address accessibility to morning afters then instead of being okay with abortion.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:02PM
Aurora Moon at 12:00AM, March 7, 2007
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that's just the thing. a lot of bible-thumpers tend to view the pills on the same level as abortion itself.

abortion clinics have a lot of diffcuties even existing in the bible belt states, and it's worse for the accessbity of the pills themselves.

and…

I couldn't help but notice that so far it's been the males who's been competely against abortion while the women preffered for there to be at least an CHOICE.

gee, I wonder why?

maybe it's so easy to be so pro life when you NEVER have to be the one to endure the suffering and pain of the birthing process?
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:09AM
CorruptComics at 2:14AM, March 7, 2007
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Aurora Moon
maybe it's so easy to be so pro life when you NEVER have to be the one to endure the suffering and pain of the birthing process?


So you admit abortion is just a cop out so they don't have to deal with pain and suffer?
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:46AM
Aurora Moon at 12:38PM, March 7, 2007
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Aurora Moon
maybe it's so easy to be so pro life when you NEVER have to be the one to endure the suffering and pain of the birthing process?

So you admit abortion is just a cop out so they don't have to deal with pain and suffer?

uh, I never said that. women don't abort just because they don't want to deal with pain. if that was so, then they would NEVER ABORT to start with!!!
because the abortion process isn't painless as you would like to think it as.
it's been documented that the abortion process, even by the drugging process, provides the women with a great deal of discomfort, and even pain.

so I don't think it's an cop out at all.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:09AM
CorruptComics at 12:54PM, March 7, 2007
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So then what is it's purpose?
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:46AM
Aurora Moon at 1:15PM, March 7, 2007
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So then what is it's purpose?

uh… some people just shouldn't have children at all, and they usually regonize that fact. After all, would you want to have children growing up in an totally messed up family that can't even provide an good life for the children?
also, the majority of people who abort is also simply not ready to have children. They don't have the space in thier homes to rear an baby and raise it…they don't have the money to provide for it.

sure, there's adoption like so many people would be SO EAGER to point out, but people with an good knowlege of how the adoption process works knows that the adoption centers and the process is usually SCREWED UP AND DOES NOT WORK AS WELL AS IT SHOULD!!
a lot of kids are homeless, parentless and staying in foster homes. And those kids usually have a lot of mental and emintional issues, often will do drugs, etc….

and on top of it, a lot of the foster families are not very trustworthy people to be raising those kids. the foster familes around here are trailer trash, to be blunt.
they leave tons of trash around tiher home, doesn't clean up after themlseves, are alcholics.. etc….

hardly a postive influnce on any baby that you would choose to give up.

if I had to choose between adoption and abortion, I'd choose abortion because I'd rather die than knowingly expose an poor baby to that kind of enivioment!
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:09AM
CorruptComics at 1:35PM, March 7, 2007
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That's interesting logic used, but alright.

But surly you agree that if the mother has the right to forgo the responsibility of raising a child by killing it, a father should have the right to forgo responsibility by refusing to support it.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:46AM
Aurora Moon at 1:41PM, March 7, 2007
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CorruptComics
That's interesting logic used, but alright.

But surly you agree that if the mother has the right to forgo the responsibility of raising a child by killing it, a father should have the right to forgo responsibility by refusing to support it.

believe it or not, I agree with you on that.
There's been too many women who actually uses that whole child support as an type of Con. there's a varitey of women out there that actually gets pregant on purpose so that they can actually milk money out of men.. it's akin to bank robbery. it's disgusting how they use babies to get money.
and the ironic bit is, half the times the guys aren't even the biological father at all.

the men really does get the poor end of the deal on that whole child support. heck, if an woman leaves the family she isn't even required to pay child support if the guy is left on his own to raise the children alone. that's how it is in most states.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:09AM
CorruptComics at 2:00PM, March 7, 2007
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I guess I might as well state my opinion here.


To outlaw abortion would be cruel, to whatever percentage, of women who can not take care of the child, rape victims, and when the safety of the mother is in danger.

Abortions for anyone who wants one is immoral. A form of birth control, power to use over a man, laziness.

It saddens me when I see so many women behind the pro choice debate. Women deserve rights obviously, but the power to have an abortion seems to be the one thing women can control us men by. You bear our sons and daughters and you have the power to kill them if YOU see fit. It's a mighty power. But is it right? Has abortion become a society benefiting medical procedure? Or is the ultimate control for women?

I've heard the battle cry of women's rights long enough. It's just confusing when women, long been seen as the givers of life to the world, are the ones that stand behind a cause that destroys life. No matter what reason.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:46AM
Phantom Penguin at 2:02PM, March 7, 2007
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Well, i'm conflicted on this point. Because i hate the thought of a innocent being killed for no reason, it IS GROWING within another human, and i think the person should have the right to decide whats growing in them or not.

But i think if a women has that right, the man should have the right to NOT support their child.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:42PM
Aurora Moon at 2:38PM, March 7, 2007
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CorruptComics
I guess I might as well state my opinion here.
To outlaw abortion would be cruel, to whatever percentage, of women who can not take care of the child, rape victims, and when the safety of the mother is in danger.

Abortions for anyone who wants one is immoral. A form of birth control, power to use over a man, laziness.

It saddens me when I see so many women behind the pro choice debate. Women deserve rights obviously, but the power to have an abortion seems to be the one thing women can control us men by. You bear our sons and daughters and you have the power to kill them if YOU see fit. It's a mighty power. But is it right? Has abortion become a society benefiting medical procedure? Or is the ultimate control for women?

I've heard the battle cry of women's rights long enough. It's just confusing when women, long been seen as the givers of life to the world, are the ones that stand behind a cause that destroys life. No matter what reason.

intersting. I don't see it as an form of “power” or even a form of control.
did you know that in nearly more than half of the abortion cases, the MEN are usually the ones who wants the women to do that? and the women comply because they love thier men, and don't want to lose thier men… thinking that thier men might end up to be one of the unsavory ones who would leave or cheat with another women if they ever went though with an pregancy.

men has just about as much power over the women just as much as women have power over the men.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:09AM
CorruptComics at 2:50PM, March 7, 2007
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No, if you want one, we have no LEGAL power to stop you. That's the problem.

If a women wants a child, but kills it because their current boyfriend/husband/lover/luster might leave them if they don't, that is a weak willed, pathetic being.

If a man wants to have his son/daughter, but the women doesn't, she can kill it.

Should the law protect a humans offspring from termination if just one of the parents wants to protect it? Yes. Even if it's the father that wants it and not the mother. Yes she needs to bear the child to birth. Killing it, to avoid reaching birth, should be a crime.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:46AM
Aurora Moon at 3:25PM, March 7, 2007
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well, there's a lot of factors that comes into play in making an law against the woman aborting if one of the parties inloved wanted to have the child.

for instance, is the people inloved together or not? unmarried or married?

are the couple in an unstable relationship? etc…

what kind of man is the guy?

most people in strong, stable relationships would be able to agree on whenever they both want an child or not… and even if the woman was unsure about having an child and the guy wanted it, the woman would usually go with the guy's wishes in an stable relationship. or even if the guy was unsure and the woman the one to want the child, he'd go with her wishes to raise the child.

it's only in unstable relationships that such an strong disagreement and oppsititon would go on…. in which case I doubt that nethier one of them is in an sound enough state of mind to be able to handle the pressure and responsiblity of raising an baby.

and then people would have to take a long hard look at the man…

for instance, an guy who has an stable job, can support the baby finically and also can take care of the baby on his own if the woman was to leave him after the baby was born… would be certainly taken much more seriously.

As to compared to some deadbeat alcholic man who can't even clean up after himself, that is.
I know I wouldn't take an man seriously if he said he wanted to have that baby, to take care of it but his house was in shambles, he drank and smoked fruently, etc….

I know I would certainly doubt the deadbeat man's ablity to even keep an baby healthy.

there's just too many factors at play to even conidser how serious the man would be about the whole thing.

after all, does he just want the woman to give birth to the baby JUST BECAUSE HE DOESN'T BELIEVE IN ABORTION, EVEN THOUGH HE DOESN'T REALLY WANT TO TAKE CARE OF THE BABY LIKE HE SAID?

and so on forth.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:09AM
CorruptComics at 3:29PM, March 7, 2007
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But the problem is there is no law that protects that mans right to keep his child.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:46AM

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