Debate and Discussion

Should the "internets' be legal?
SpANG at 10:35AM, March 6, 2007
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Regulatory forces are going into place already, regarding access and content (see banner).
A theory going around now is that the internet is a dangerous thing. That it's as addictive and as harmful as any drug. That people perform illegal acts on it every day, what with the identity fraud, music downloads, and pedophiles.

People must be protected from themselves. We must protect the innocent. Much like drugs are now illegal, will the internet soon be abolished? Should the internet be abolished?

After all, if a few people can't be trusted with it's awesome power, nobody should.


… Right?
“To a rational mind, nothing is inexplicable. Only unexplained.”
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:52PM
reconjsh at 1:18PM, March 6, 2007
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It sounds like there's an agenda in this thread to talk about more than just the internet. But that obviousness aside…

To say there's things wrong with internet and so it should be illegal is the same vague phrasing as saying there's things wrong with drugs and they should all be illegal. I don't hear anyone saying HEROIN should be government regulated and sold. The arguement you really should be making is the same as what you made in the “marijuana” forum. Some specific parts of the internet SHOULD be illegal and/or regulated and some specific parts are fine.

The free exchange of information certainly can't be a bad thing. But I would support regulating the internet. Why not? We regulate content in movies, television, music, library books, etc… mature content should only be available to those with permission or a predetermined age of maturity… like any other content.

I mean, the internet IS dangerous… you cited several reasons why. But to compare it to all drugs, that's just silly and you know it.

However, I DO see your point. We should put regulations down to protect the innocent. Information theft, pediphiles farming for victims who are careless with their indentity, software theft… these are all agreeably bad things and they should be regulated and made illegal.

Finally:
Someone
Regulatory forces are going into place already, regarding access and content (see banner).
Is not the same as:
Someone
People must be protected from themselves. We must protect the innocent. Much like drugs are now illegal, will the internet soon be abolished? Should the internet be abolished?
After all, if a few people can't be trusted with it's awesome power, nobody should.


So to answer your question, of course it shouldn't be abolished. But just like some drugs, it SHOULD be regulated more than it currently is. And it will be.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:02PM
Black_Kitty at 9:24PM, March 6, 2007
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What I want to know is:

1. How does one go about regulating the Internet? Considering it is this virtual space that does not inhabit in one specific country, how does one regulate something that they don't completely own?
2. What are you going to do, ban modems?

The idea of regulating the Internet reminds me of what China's been trying to do for a while now. They give their citizens access to the Internet but attempt to control the content that they see. But where there's a will, there's a way. China's better off banning modems then banning sections of the Internet.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:24AM
Aurora Moon at 10:23PM, March 6, 2007
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yeah. Black Kitty brings up an excellent point on the fact that the Internet pretty much belongs to almost all the countries of Earth.

so some content that might be deemed illegal would be legal in another country….

like for instance, some country's adult website that just happens to contain 15-17 years old. and that happens to be legal in THAT country, because the 15-17 year olds are considered adult enough to consent, and also of marrying age.

How does the United States enforce the laws on THAT website which belongs to ANOTHER country?
sure to most people in the United states, that might seem like child porn but to the people of that country and culture, they might be seen as women, and therefore not child porn… because to those people, the only young people they would consider to be children is under the age of 15, or even somebody who hadn't even hit puberty yet.
it'd be difficult to convince that mindset which has been so steeped in that kind of culture. and if we could, then it'd need to have a long time for it to change slowly.

heck, the USA was like that too for a while there. In fact, my great-grandma married when she was very young.. she was only 15 while my great-grandpa was like 17 going on 18 when they both got married…
and that was seen as normal, and my great-grandma didn't even feel like she was being an victim of pedophilia or anything like that. Because she was already considered an adult woman around that time. and My Great-grandpa treated her pretty good, and loved her very much.
it didn't occur to them at the time that what they did should had been illegal.. because it was pretty much common, and legal. it was just the culture around that time.

Of course, I could see people getting jailed or fined for going to an website that was illegal in their own country.

I'd expect for people to follow the rules of their own countries' laws regarding the net, or else be fined or go to Jail in the event that other people found out what they were doing.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:09AM
reconjsh at 10:57PM, March 6, 2007
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I imagine that it'll begin with some international agency creating regulatory policy for the internet. All countries, web authors, and governments will have to conform… or the countries that do belong to this international agency/agreement will not allow web traffic into their country from non-participating or sub-code countries.

And doing that is easy. They do it all the time. It's not hard to restrict broad access to/from specific areas.

It'd just be another international law. And just because country X doesn't submit to the international laws (set down by the UN for in instance) doesn't mean that breaking them won't go without punishment. Just because it's illegal to kill a Frenchman in France and it's perfectly legal to do so in country X, won't stop the world community from putting the murderer on trial and punishing him if found guilty. The same would hold true for the internet. Just because you don't acknowledge the rules/laws won't stop the international agency from keeping you out of the loop.

And the arguement of “it's hard/impossible to regulate the internet” is not a good one against why we shouldn't do it… it's more of an excuse than a counterpoint.

So tell me: should credit card theives in country X be punished for stealing numbers digitally? Let's say country X has no internet laws and there's no legal means for pursuing the theif… what then? Let's say it's providing a server that hosts kiddie porn… they're not viewing, creating, or distributing the kiddie porn, but they're providing a shelter for the perverts. Should there not be rules to punish this person if he fails to act?

Of course the internet should be regulated. Or else it'll become a haven for evil doers.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:02PM
Aurora Moon at 12:14AM, March 7, 2007
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I have no doubt that as the internet society grows, there'll be new laws and rules in place to ensure that net criminals are not running rampant.

however, I was just questioning how we could get that kind of thing off the ground in terms of international laws without cultures and traditions colliding, which I think would be impossible.

some countries may not be so peachy keen to comfirming to the laws of The US laws, etc….

hell, some counrties doesn't even agree on when an young woman is an adult or an child.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:09AM
reconjsh at 9:17AM, March 7, 2007
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Aurora Moon
I have no doubt that as the internet society grows, there'll be new laws and rules in place to ensure that net criminals are not running rampant.

however, I was just questioning how we could get that kind of thing off the ground in terms of international laws without cultures and traditions colliding, which I think would be impossible.

some countries may not be so peachy keen to comfirming to the laws of The US laws, etc….

hell, some counrties doesn't even agree on when an young woman is an adult or an child.

They'll just do what they always do, they'll use economic and polictical power to force the weaker countries to cooperate. I don't think that's a good idea, but that's what international governing bodies do all the time.

But certainly you agree there's some universal rights and wrongs? Can't we start by regulating those?
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:02PM
Aurora Moon at 12:43PM, March 7, 2007
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yeah. I think almost everyone can agree on protection from online theft, for instance.

it's just the “bigger” things that some people may have an conflict over.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:09AM
mlai at 3:09PM, March 7, 2007
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Regulate the Internet? Why? So we can have a government like China's? So communications corporations can dictate what we see and hear (even more than now)?

Who will regulate? If you think it's going to be the virtuous and the ethical, you're naive.

What will be regulated? If you think it's going to be the corrupted and the criminal, you're naive.

FIGHT current chapter: Filling In The Gaps
FIGHT_2 current chapter: Light Years of Gold
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:05PM
Aurora Moon at 3:33PM, March 7, 2007
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yeah. we already have some examples of the law enforcement and government agencies going to ridiculous lengths to just monitor what people say on the net.

I heard of an case on the news a while back where some dude made an photo shopped picture faking an news article and it talked about president bush being assassinated, and it was basically just an funny spoof depicting his dislike for president bush.

guess what? he was arrested, and then detained for questioning by government officials and police over some stupid photo-shopped picture! he wasn't even serious about it…

and on top of it they took down the picture and everything else related that he ever wrote relating to president bush.

sounds like censorship to me.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:09AM
CorruptComics at 3:35PM, March 7, 2007
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I'm gonna need a story link to back that up.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:46AM
reconjsh at 3:41PM, March 7, 2007
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Aurora Moon
yeah. we already have some examples of the law enforcement and government agencies going to ridiculous lengths to just monitor what people say on the net.

I heard of an case on the news a while back where some dude made an photo shopped picture faking an news article and it talked about president bush being assassinated, and it was basically just an funny spoof depicting his dislike for president bush.

guess what? he was arrested, and then detained for questioning by government officials and police over some stupid photo-shopped picture! he wasn't even serious about it…

and on top of it they took down the picture and everything else related that he ever wrote relating to president bush.

sounds like censorship to me.

Yeah, I agree with Corrupt… a link would be nice. I'm not saying this isn't true… but you have to substantiate a claim this large.



And the arguement that the regulators would be corrupt is not a valid one for the discussion “should it be regulated”… it's only valid in “who” should regulate it.

Don't you think it's worse to let people do whatever the hell they want on the internet because it's virtual, no matter how evil what they do is? What about hackers? What if someone hacked your server and stole your data? Should they be regulated or not? The only way to punish them for what they did to you is to “regulate” the internet: make laws regarding virtual properties.

Or something more relevant to us: what about theft of web art? They use the internet to steal from you. You published on the internet. Since, in an unregulated virtual world, there aren't laws that make web published works copyrighted and/or laws for punishing thieves, you have no legal recourse.

So of course you guys are FOR regulation.
There's already plenty of them. You just haven't thought it through. What you're really against is some Orwellian notion that all regulation leads down a slipperly slope towards total domination.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:02PM
CorruptComics at 3:46PM, March 7, 2007
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You do not exist.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:46AM
Aurora Moon at 3:49PM, March 7, 2007
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actually, people who steal copyrighted works on the net can be punished. people CAN copyright works that are on the Net.

and I think it's vaild to discuss what the difference is in regluating and what censorship is….

it helps gets all the cards out on the table, for all to see and oragnize on what thier ideals is, so to speak.

anyway, that news were on CNN.. I'll try to see if I can find an article of that.

hmm.. still looking, but I found this VERY intersting article!


http://news.com.com/Create+an+e-annoyance,+go+to+jail/2010-1028_3-6022491.html
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:09AM
CorruptComics at 3:52PM, March 7, 2007
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HAHAHAHAAHAHAH
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:46AM
reconjsh at 3:55PM, March 7, 2007
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Aurora Moon
actually, people who steal copyrighted works on the net can be punished. people CAN copyright works that are on the Net.

and I think it's vaild to discuss what the difference is in regluating and what censorship is….

it helps gets all the cards out on the table, for all to see and oragnize on what thier ideals is, so to speak.

anyway, that news were on CNN.. I'll try to see if I can find an article of that.

hmm.. still looking, but I found this VERY intersting article!


http://news.com.com/Create+an+e-annoyance,+go+to+jail/2010-1028_3-6022491.html

1) The title of this thread and the authors first post mention NOTHING about “censorship”. I've been talking about REGULATION and so has everyone else. Perhaps the disconnect and disagreance here is that YOU are talking about CENSORSHIP, which is OFF TOPIC.

2) You cited an example of regulation: stealing copyrighted works on the internet. These works are only copyrighted through NET REGULATIONS. They're virtual… they're not tangible. And since there's regulation, those people are punished.

So I gather you ARE in favor of regulation? You're just against censorship or, like I mentioned, some Orwellian notion that all regulation leads down a slipperly slope towards total domination.


3) If what in that article holds up, alot of people better leave me alone on the internet… because alot of people annoy me. Any I'll be in prison too because I certainly annoy people. LOL That's upsurd.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:02PM
Aurora Moon at 3:56PM, March 7, 2007
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoTUrK8uzCU

that was the news article on TV I remember. 4Chan isn't really an serious site at all, they photoshopped tons of pictures and would often make up fake news articles and so on forth as an form of joke but the police got thier panties in an twist over that, and it was over the news.

and that youth who made the photoshop and comment now has to go to jail for life supposedly.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:09AM
reconjsh at 4:00PM, March 7, 2007
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Someone
I heard of an case on the news a while back where some dude made an photo shopped picture faking an news article and it talked about president bush being assassinated, and it was basically just an funny spoof depicting his dislike for president bush.

guess what? he was arrested, and then detained for questioning by government officials and police over some stupid photo-shopped picture! he wasn't even serious about it…

is a bit different than:
Someone
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoTUrK8uzCU

but whatever.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:02PM
Aurora Moon at 4:12PM, March 7, 2007
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I got it a little bit mixed up because when I heard of it, I went to 4chan to see somebody talking about president bush getting assinisated, etc, as an joke..

and then that part got shut down, and somebody said that he got into trouble just like the guy who made the “bomb threat”.

ah well.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:09AM
Black_Kitty at 10:42PM, March 8, 2007
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Here's the problem I see with regulating the Internet:

It isn't the “should we?” but the “can we?” part that's troublesome. China and the US alone have two different views about the use of the Internet and flow of information. Considering that these two countries are part of the Security Council, that's pretty significant and worth thinking about.

Even Canada and the US have different laws that would be difficult to bring together. In Canada, there are hate laws but in the US there aren't any. So making an anti-Semitic website would be against the law here but not so in the United States. How will that be addressed when it comes time to regulate the Internet?

The other half of regulation is reinforcement. How will Internet laws be reinforced? Who will reinforce them? How will the system of reinforcement work? Who will have what jurisdiction?

If we are to concentrate on some universal right and wrong…then what will those be? Is promoting hatred an issue of universal right and wrong? What about spreading of misinformation? Information that contradicts your government's views?

Or maybe we can talk about copyrights? But what if I want to do something about Peter Pan and post it up on the Internet. Did I violate copyright? In the US, Peter Pan is considered public domain. But in Europe it's under copyright protection as Barrie gave the copyright to Great Ormond Street Hospital. So what does that mean?

I personally think a government has better luck banning servers and modems then they do in controlling the Internet. At least with servers and modems, they're physical things. The Internet is this virtual thing. It both inhabits space and doesn't.

It doesn't mean crimes on the Internet won't go unpunished. Just that it's much more difficult doing so at an international scale.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:24AM
vgman at 8:18AM, March 9, 2007
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i just think the internet is beond to large to ban sections or pieces of it. new sightes are added every day. and some of thughs sites may not be seen as leagal. so to effectivly shut down areas of the internet that are deemed illegal they would need some sort of always active system that regulates every sight added and puts a block on them (kind of like what schools have just WAY more advanced) and a computer that would have to proceses the entire internet would need to be MASSIVE in order to maintain every thing. also in order to make sure that it only bans the sight in our country they would have to make sure that all the computers are opporating on the same system and connected to it at all times. really its next to impossible to do. and even then there will be program developers and hackers that will be able to overide and/or infect the system. really its just to hard to do.
RIP TD :cry2:
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:40PM

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