Debate and Discussion

Sicko and the US health care system
imshard at 10:45AM, Dec. 17, 2007
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crap I hate it when the cynic is right.
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CharleyHorse at 11:56AM, Dec. 17, 2007
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Nah! If Moore was only interested in becoming even wealthier than he already is he would simply accept the vast sums of bribe money that the republican leadership offered him to clam up and go away.

last edited on July 14, 2011 11:40AM
imshard at 12:08PM, Dec. 17, 2007
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REALLY! THERE'S A BRIBERY DEPARTMENT? SWEET!
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Mister Mxyzptlk at 1:12PM, Dec. 17, 2007
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CharleyHorse
If Moore was only interested in becoming even wealthier than he already is he would simply accept the vast sums of bribe money that the republican leadership offered him to clam up and go away.

Got a source on that? I mean besides Micky Moore himself trying to make it sound like his movies are having an impact on something other than his bank account…
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last edited on July 14, 2011 2:04PM
Mister Mxyzptlk at 1:13PM, Dec. 17, 2007
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imshard
REALLY! THERE'S A BRIBERY DEPARTMENT? SWEET!

I wish I could make them want to bribe me like that.
My soul was removed to make room for all this sarcasm.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:04PM
bobhhh at 1:33PM, Dec. 17, 2007
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albone
I really think the point of Moore's movie was to encourage discussion, like the one being had here. The more people that are hip to the broken US healthcare system the better. We don't have to have a solution right now, but we do need to talk about one right now.

I agree. Just a quick scan at all the resulting press from his flick is a testament to the fact that he helps get things pushed to the front of the national agenda. That his films do well and earned him an oscar is just proof that he has a constituency that cares about what he has to say.

I believe this discussion and criticism is good, but I only hope his message is not ultimately lost in a lot of irrelevant personal attacks.
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beautifully_demonic at 7:28AM, Dec. 18, 2007
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I watched “sicko” just a few days ago and I was shocked at the poor health care system in the U.S., since our health care system is very basically like in the UK (except we have to pay like 27.000 krona at the dentists for just a few fillings).!!!
I couldn´t believe it …
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Mister Mxyzptlk at 1:19PM, Dec. 18, 2007
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beautifully_demonic
I couldn´t believe it

You probably shouldn't beleive it. Sicko that is.

I had to go to the emergency room last weekend. Had some weird intestinal thing going on that needed some super strong IV antibiotics. We didn't have our insurance cards on us because they were in the mail. My wife's company is changing providers so we were up in the air. They took me in, treated me right. I even got a private room. All for someone who might not even HAVE insurance.

Now I've got a hell of a co-pay for this one, probably $4,000 but they will allow me to make that in several payments. If I didn't have insurance they would give me what's called “internal assistance” which would drop the bill to something I could manage to pay.

So I don't think Moore is showing how the majority of Americans are affected by the health care system. I think he has taken a few cases WAY out of context and tried to make the health providers look bad so his movie will sell lots of tickets and DVDs.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 2:04PM
albone at 7:44AM, Dec. 19, 2007
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So wait a second here…a $4000 co-pay sounds acceptable to you? Even with the generous installment method? Health care providers don't need Moore to portray how crummy they are, they do a wonderful job on their own.

So, wouldn't Moore make more money on bribes to keep quiet then to put this out?

Honestly, if you're poor or rich you're okay. If you're blue collar, you're screwed. If you're going for a checkup, no worries. The second it gets over that though, get ready for backward run through a cornfield.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 10:48AM
jaswilson at 9:17AM, Dec. 19, 2007
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$4,000!!! You're not serious. Anyhow, I think Moore does an invaluable job. Before change can take place there has to be a high awareness throughout the States that this is just not right in any country, never mind a western country, and at that the leading superpower. On spreading awareness in the States and the rest of the world he seems to be doing a superb job and I haven't heard many Americans attacking the essential truths he gives voice to.

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last edited on July 14, 2011 1:07PM
Mister Mxyzptlk at 3:23PM, Dec. 19, 2007
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albone
So wait a second here…a $4000 co-pay sounds acceptable to you?

For the emergency room staff saving my life. Hell yes it's reasonable. Had I found out about the illness earlier and not ignored some symptoms because I “ain't got time to bleed” then it may have been dealt with in the doctors office for a $20 co-pay. My fault for putting it off and trying to work through it. So yeah, $4,000 for a two night stay with hot and cold running nurses and all the medicine they pumped into me. Happy to pay it. I'm alive when I very well could have been dead had they not taken care of me.

albone
So, wouldn't Moore make more money on bribes to keep quiet then to put this out?

I don't see why you think this needs to be hidden? The problem with assholes like Moore is he makes people think they will be booted to the street at the emergency room if they don't have insurance. He makes them worry so they avoid seeking care until they are really far gone because they fear the consequences of an uninsured visit. The lady at the billing dept at the hospital hears that kind of crap from people all the time. the myths that people believe about health care are amazing…

albone
The second it gets over that though, get ready for backward run through a cornfield.

I've been in the emergency room 5 times in the last 6 years. Two times without insurance, three times with. I haven't been run backward through the cornfield yet. The billing department helped me out, dropped the bills to a payable amount and made reasonable billing arrangements. An 11 day stay for an emergency appendectomy cost me less than $10,000 between the hospital and all the doctors. It started off at over $50,000 for the hospital alone but when you don't have insurance they work with you. They don't want to screw you, they just want to pay their bills for saving you.
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Mister Mxyzptlk at 3:24PM, Dec. 19, 2007
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jaswilson
I haven't heard many Americans attacking the essential truths he gives voice to.

Then you haven't been listening… But I expect that from ideologues.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 2:04PM
albone at 9:24AM, Dec. 20, 2007
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I think the missing ingredient here between you and I is what we consider a fair deal.

You can't really put a price on well being, but a $4000 co-pay? Dude that's a ton of money to me. $10,000 is crazy. Lower income families have that paid for by the state, because they're lower income. Me, I'd be happy with paying a little more in taxes to not have to worry about a $10,000 bill from getting sick. As I get older, that immigration to Canada looks better and better.

So maybe that's the cross up between you and I. If 10 large is acceptable to you, then more power to you. Myself and a lot of other people find that intolerable. There it is.
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Mister Mxyzptlk at 5:26PM, Dec. 20, 2007
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albone
I think the missing ingredient here between you and I is what we consider a fair deal.

That's always the problem. “Fair” is something children whine about. Like the grandfather in “The Princess Bride” says “Who said life is fair? Where is that written?” As adults we have to accept that sometimes life is simply unfair. I've been to the hospital 5 times in the last 6 years. Three of those times resulted in more than one night stays. I have friends who don't even know how the emergency room looks much less understand the intricacies of getting admitted because they never need to go. Is that “fair”? Of course not. Its life. Do I despise them for their health? No. Well, maybe a little…

Hospitals are very costly places to run. Administrators, doctors, nurses, cleaning crew and maintenance crews all need paychecks. Not to mention the building itself along with the very costly equipment drives the price of building it up and the people who put forth the money to build the hospital deserve something for their investment and risk. Just heating and cooling the place along with the millions of gallons of water needed to keep the place spotless cost money too. All in all a whole lot of palms to grease. Or do you think all those folks along the way should get less money for their work?

albone
You can't really put a price on well being, but a $4000 co-pay? Dude that's a ton of money to me. $10,000 is crazy.

It's not pocket change to me either. But the hospital has always been fair with me in setting up payment plans that I can manage. This $4,000 co pay will likely be done over 18 to 24 months and they will co-sign the bank loan for it. That's how they handled it before.

albone
Lower income families have that paid for by the state, because they're lower income. Me, I'd be happy with paying a little more in taxes to not have to worry about a $10,000 bill from getting sick.

But what about the folks who don't need the emergency room? Like I said, most of my friends only know where the hospital is because they come to visit me when I'm in it. Why should they pony up for my bad luck? I used the service, I should pay for it. If I total my car without insurance they shouldn't have to buy me a new car. If my house burns down and I don't have insurance they shouldn't have to buy me a new house. It's up to me to take care of myself. I like it that way.

albone
As I get older, that immigration to Canada looks better and better.

Go for it. I hear the winters are a bear though.

albone
Myself and a lot of other people find that intolerable.

But what will you do about it? Force everyone into a one size fits all health care scheme where doctors who take cash go to jail? Make everyone have the same insurance provider? Imagine the corruption and graft that will bring into the system.

European nations can afford to nationalize health care for several reasons. The biggest one being population density. They can have fewer overall providers because they aren't so spread out. Also they haven't gone to war with each other for the last 60 years because the US had bases all over their countries supposedly keeping the Soviets at bay. All the money they used to spend on armies for beating each other up every twenty years or so they have been able to funnel into social services. The US has foolishly taken the fiscal hit for all that.

Personally I think the US should have left Europe alone in WWI and WWII and let them slaughter each other every twenty years while we saved that money and built up a real healthy economy where everyone could afford the health insurance package that works best for them. But hey, no one asked my opinion about saving Europe from itself…

The problem with health care in the US is all the patchwork remedies that have been tried over the years. When I was a young fellow you paid the doctor out of pocket. A hospital stay was costly but not bank breaking expensive. Then Nixon pushed his wage and price controls and the concept of insurance being a benefit to keep good employees came about. Then the doctors all needed full time insurance billing people which drove up the costs of doing business. Along the way other regulations have been written that were supposed to help but just had unintended consequences that made things worse. No one has ever said “gee, why not try to wind back to what worked?” They keep trying to move “forward” with new zany ideas.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 2:04PM
TitanOne at 9:11PM, Dec. 20, 2007
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imshard
REALLY! THERE'S A BRIBERY DEPARTMENT? SWEET!


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imshard at 9:23PM, Dec. 20, 2007
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so if they're so rich why they just buy us all off then?
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bobhhh at 12:03AM, Dec. 21, 2007
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imshard
REALLY! THERE'S A BRIBERY DEPARTMENT? SWEET!


Proof —-> “Impeachment is off the table.” -Nancy Pelosi

I don't give her that much credit, I think she is just Tom Daschle in drag.

Democrats have never really gotten over their fear of Repulicans since Reagan kicked their ass and turned Liberal into a political swear word. Sometimes they vote like they're embarrassed about their opinions.

Say what you will about Republicans, they are unafraid of their party's platform. Most of it is heinous from my perspective, but I have to respect them for not waffling like my party.

I only hope that Bush's trangressions give the Democrats sufficient oxygen enough to grow a spine.
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imshard at 1:00AM, Dec. 21, 2007
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bobhhh
I don't give her that much credit, I think she is just Tom Daschle in drag.

Democrats have never really gotten over their fear of Repulicans since Reagan kicked their ass and turned Liberal into a political swear word. Sometimes they vote like they're embarrassed about their opinions.

Say what you will about Republicans, they are unafraid of their party's platform. Most of it is heinous from my perspective, but I have to respect them for not waffling like my party.

I only hope that Bush's trangressions give the Democrats sufficient oxygen enough to grow a spine.

I think the party system is despicable altogether. But I am interested in your point of view. What exactly do you find heinous about the GOP's stated beliefs? Yes it'd be nice if the leftist party would get some balls and stand up on something instead of simply sniping at their opponents weak points in lieu of any plans or alternatives of their own.
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bobhhh at 7:53AM, Dec. 21, 2007
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imshard
But I am interested in your point of view. What exactly do you find heinous about the GOP's stated beliefs?

I'll name a couple. Their opposition to legal abortion, their denial of gay families and marriage, their support for the patriot act, their preoccupation with government support of faith based instutions, opposition to teaching anything but abstinence to kids, their embrace of biblical science in schools, etc.
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SpANG at 8:08AM, Dec. 21, 2007
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I'd also like to point out that I recently compared paychecks with someone in Canada. We both get paid bi-weekly, her pay is a actually a couple hundred more than me. Anyway, without counting my health care costs, just counting federal taxes, I am paying WAY MORE than she is, and her health care is included in that, mine isn't.

Now, if you are PAYING for health care in your paycheck now, what the hell is the difference to you? Do you actually think you'd be paying MORE through your federal taxes than you are paying for your current provider? I highly doubt it. Plus, there would be no co-pays anymore. That should be taken into account if you get prescriptions or emergency room visits.

I think you should face the FACT that it actually works in other countries. Our current health care system does not.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 3:53PM
imshard at 5:55PM, Dec. 21, 2007
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imshard
But I am interested in your point of view. What exactly do you find heinous about the GOP's stated beliefs?

I'll name a couple. Their opposition to legal abortion, their denial of gay families and marriage, their support for the patriot act, their preoccupation with government support of faith based instutions, opposition to teaching anything but abstinence to kids, their embrace of biblical science in schools, etc.

I can empathize with that.
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CharleyHorse at 8:33PM, Dec. 21, 2007
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I'm reasonably certain that regardless of massive opposition from the business community that some form of universal free health care coverage is just a matter of time in the United States.

People are sick and tired of either paying outrageous sums of money for decent health care coverage against the possibility of some day needing to use it or doing without and having to pay utterly obscene out of pocket expenses, depending on the nature of the illness.

I know of too many people who were rather low on the economic totem pole but more or less making it in life who were reduced to near poverty by the greedy medical system in the United States. Eventually people will simply get enough of being ripped off and will force the legislative branch into doing their damn job despite every trick and filthy counter technique that the republican party can render to halt or emasculate the switch over to universal health care.

Actually, what I KNOW will happen is that a great and perfectly intelligent and affordable system of universal health care will be proposed by the democrats and then once the republicans discover that THIS TIME around they can't destroy it or its messengers they will then begin watering down and subverting it and actually wrecking evil upon the plan until it is not only barely effective but will vastly benefit the wealthy while making the populace at large believe that universal health care just is neither practical nor effective.

A variation of this tactic is precisely what these animals did to the U.S. civil rights legislation whenever possible throughout the 1960s and 1970s, and is their modus operandi.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:40AM
Mister Mxyzptlk at 9:37PM, Dec. 21, 2007
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SpANG
I'd also like to point out that I recently compared paychecks with someone in Canada. We both get paid bi-weekly, her pay is a actually a couple hundred more than me. Anyway, without counting my health care costs, just counting federal taxes, I am paying WAY MORE than she is, and her health care is included in that, mine isn't.

Your taxes are defending the Free World from the scourge of World Communism… Or is it Islamo-Fascism now… I can never keep track of the latest boogeyman. So many evils, so little time.

The US is foolishly allowing the rest of the 1st world to get by with a fraction of the military that they kept pre WWII. That's a hell of a savings for those nations. A savings they have decided to plow into nationalizing “vital” services. They are able to make that choice because of the post WWII Pax-Americana.

Now, when the American Empire crashes down and things get wild we shall see if the rest of the first world decides to try and keep those pathetically small militaries and hope their neighbors don't hear the drumbeat of war too loudly. If they decide to beef up their militaries then I doubt they will be able to afford the luxury of quality nationalized health care.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 2:04PM
Bimbo_Zombie at 12:55PM, Dec. 23, 2007
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You should see the healthcare system in my country.
They pay the nurses the same or less than plumbers then wonder why there are almost NO nurses in the country yet a surprisingly large number of New Zealand nurses in Austrailia (which pays their nurses even more). And to make the problem worse, they wonder why the nurses go on strike 5 times a year.

You would expect this from a 3rd world country, not NZ!

Oh wait, NZ is third world. Never mind.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:22AM
mapaghimagsik at 11:29AM, Dec. 24, 2007
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Bimbo_Zombie
You should see the healthcare system in my country.
They pay the nurses the same or less than plumbers

Plumbers in the US make good money. Nurses aspire to plumbing in the US.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
Mister Mxyzptlk at 2:08PM, Dec. 24, 2007
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Bimbo_Zombie
Oh wait, NZ is third world. Never mind.

Do you have nukes? If not then you are at best second world.
What is the percentage of homes with indoor toilets? That's pretty much the dividing line between second and third.
My soul was removed to make room for all this sarcasm.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:04PM

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