Debate and Discussion

The american dream--bootstraps or institutional barriers?
BigFishComic at 10:13PM, Aug. 23, 2006
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people are always aspiring towards the american dream–rising up from complete poverty into a comfortable suburban lifestyle through nothing but good old hard work. essentially, pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps.

the problem with this is that a lot of other people say that there are inherent institutional barriers that keep certain people –blacks for example from being able to achieve the american dream no matter how hard they work because they simply aren't given the same opportunities as other folks.

to narrow the subject down, are black folks right when they complain about the “man” keeping them down? how about affirmative action? is that reverse racism or just leveling the playing field? is there really such a thing as “reverse racism”?

what do you think?
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:21AM
BigFishComic at 11:06PM, Aug. 23, 2006
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equinox
This is unfortunately the mindset of the majority of the black community.
http://www.michaellwilliams.com/blog/display.php?id=421
Read this. Done? Good.

woah. that piece of writing was full of sweeping generalities.

–>When 75 percent of New Orleans residents had left the city, it was primarily immoral, welfare-pampered blacks that stayed behind and waited for the government to bail them out.

welfare-pampered?

http://www.alternet.org/wiretap/9435/

The most ridiculous idea is that welfare recipients simply refuse to work for a living: they are lazy bums taking us all for a ride. Mike Males says: "Of course recipients don't ‘work.’ Two-thirds of its beneficiaries are children… Two-thirds of the parents… are disabled. Thus at most, one-fifth of AFDC beneficiaries are ‘able-bodied’ non-workers.“

People who deride the poor for laziness are out of touch with the difficulty of finding decent jobs. It's hard enough to get any job if you're poor, and have little or no higher education or training (like many welfare recipients).

–>One wonders how there was “no way” for these people to evacuate the city.

Of course most of the poorer population didn't pack up and leave right away because it costs money to move and move properly. I doubt anybody knew it was going to be such a disaster hurricane and so the mentality wouldn't have ‘omg get out FAST!’ until it was too late.

–>Instead of doing the obvious, Mayor Nagin…loaded remaining New Orleans residents into the Superdome and the city’s convention center.

yes, you can load all those people into all those ”available“ buses but then where were you put them? is the obvious answer to just pack people onto a bus out of the city and then wash your hands of them?

–>It took a mere three days for blacks to turn the Superdome and the convention center into ghettos, rampant with theft, rape and murder.

I'm sure there were blacks that were participating in theft, rape, and murder but blaming it all on the blacks is just as bad as blaming it all on the whites. it's too much of a generalization.

whoever wrote that is entitled to their opinion but my gosh, that sounded a little racist to me. NOT just because he's ”telling it like it is" but because he's writing like blacks are inherently a problem.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:21AM
BigFishComic at 11:55PM, Aug. 23, 2006
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equinox
bigfishcomic
whoever wrote that is entitled to their opinion but my gosh, that sounded a little racist to me. NOT just because he's “telling it like it is” but because he's writing like blacks are inherently a problem.

It was written by Rev. Jesse Lee Peterson. He is black. And how can a black man be racist against blacks?

just because he's black doesn't mean he can't be racist.

look at ward connerly, he's black and he helped write prop 209 in california.

the mentality goes back to if the individual is to blame for being poor or out of work or is it the system? is it the players in the game or the rules we play by?

rev. peterson is blaming the players for performing poorly…and most of them just happen to be black.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:21AM
LIZARD_B1TE at 5:46AM, Aug. 24, 2006
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The thing today is that people determine what's going on based on skin color. God forbid a white person punches a black person, because we all know that the people in question have nothing to do with it! It has to be racism! Give me a break.

And while there are many people who are on welfare because of disabilities and such, there are also a majority people who take advantage of welfare and live of it. Trust me, when I go to Walmart or something on the first of a month, there will be a ton of able bodied people there spending all the money in there welfare checks.

And what about education? I have a hard time believing anyone who says “Yo, homie, what you been doin'? I been just chillin'.” gives a crap about school.

But don't get me wrong, I've met a great deal of black people who don't fit this description. It's just this one group that well… it's already been said.

equinox
'whitey owes you caws yo momma and ‘er ancestas were whitey’s slaves'

That.

The whole thing with people screaming racism left and right is ridiculous. Same thing goes for illegal immigration. Nevermind that the immigrants are filling job positions without being paid minimum wage or the possibility that terrorists are sneaking into our country, if you're against it, you must be a racist! Seriously, some border patrol officers were attacked by illegal immigrants, the officers fought back in self defense, and guess which group got into legal trouble? Definately not the immigrants who struck first, because to hold them responsible would be racist!

Most of the racism in the USA is imaginery. I bet you at least 75% of it isn't even real.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:36PM
ccs1989 at 6:41AM, Aug. 24, 2006
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You'd be surprised at how much racism still exists in this country. Blatant racism has decreased, but racism on more subtle levels is still around.

A good definition of racism today is that ‘Racism is a set of advantages based on race.’ Think of housing descrimination. A black person may want to buy a house, and are turned down by someone who thinks that having a black person in the neighborhood would lower the housing value in the area. Then a white person may try to buy the house and get accepted. Now the white person buying the house was not racist, but they still got the house due to racism.

Now I think the American Dream is a nice bit of propaganda, and a nice little byline to get people to come over to the old US of A, but it isn't true. People are limited by where they live and their education. I don't think the American Dream is applicable, or if it was ever applicable.
http://ccs1989.deviantart.com

“If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.”
-Henry David Thoreau, Walden
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:38AM
blackaby at 7:05AM, Aug. 24, 2006
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I think having a history of being a slave has a severely detrimental effect on people's (or A people's) ability to thrive. You can see real problems with this in places like Australia, where there's a huge problem with drinking, depression and abuse within the Indiginous Australian communities. Also the ‘Creole’ (descendents of black African slaves) troubles in places like Reunion, which was colonised by France a long time ago. Having a history of slavery can be completely emasculating for any race, and it does filter through to future generations.

The French/African side of my family has always kept slaves, and later on, when slavery became illegal, they kept servants (very low paid). I've heard them talk, even now, about how slavery was really very good for those poor little blacks. I think so long as that kind of attitude persists amongst people who historically kept slaves, you can't say that a history of slavery remains something of the past and has no bearing at all on the present and people's ability to get jobs.

I think racism is alive and well and is keeping many people out of work. I've been at jobs where people will refuse to interview a candidate because their name is ‘too hard to pronounce’ or ‘too foreign’. I'm quite aware I've gotten jobs myself because of positive discrimination - I've been mistaken for being Jewish, Irish Catholic, Indian, Indiginous Australian… well, okay, I admit I'm Irish Catholic by blood. :D People have given me jobs because they think I'm one of them. I can certainly believe it works the other way too.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:23AM
Ronson at 7:25AM, Aug. 24, 2006
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Racism is inexticably tied to the class warfare in this country.

Across the board, the chances of a person rising above the economic class of their parents is less than 10%. It is a percentage that has gotten lower fairly consistently for about 15 years. And if you're in the lowest classes, it's even less.

But even when it was a bit higher, it wasn't much more than 20%.

And who rises above their economic class? The smart, the talented and the lucky. Sometimes they need all three qualities, on occasion just one.

It is no coincidence that the lower classes are overwhelmingly minorities. It is no coincidence that these particular minorities got their start in the United States as slaves or illegal immigrants.

It's all well and good for people on the other side of the fence to point at the underclass and tell them that it's their fault and that they should “try harder” or that “they get too many breaks and it makes them lazy” … but is it true?

No, overall it isn't. There are individual cases that exist, but the overwhelming majority of the underclass are ignored and abused by the United States governmental policy. There is a system in place that is designed to give “just enough” to the lower classes to prevent them from demanding more.

When you have nothing left to lose, you act. When you have a little something, you guard it jealously.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:10PM
LIZARD_B1TE at 8:51AM, Aug. 24, 2006
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blackaby
Having a history of slavery can be completely emasculating for any race, and it does filter through to future generations.

Now, I know this isn't a slavery issue but I'm part Cherokee. So, are you saying that I should naturally be anti government because of what the USA did some ancestors of mine? And are you also saying that certain other groups should naturally discriminate against me because a small bit of my blood is Native American?

And, remember after slaves were freed, many of them had nowhere to go, and ended up in more or less the same situation. And, in a sense, a worse situation because this time they were constantly tantalized by a promise of freedom. I'm not saying that slavery was good, but many freed slaves ended up in pretty bad situations. A few blacks blame whites for this, but the Chiefs of the African tribes sold them to the slave traders. So, really, it wasn't entirely the white people's fault. It was mostly, but not entirely.

And while racism does exist, you can't deny that people do use it as an excuse. If someone who is black wants to be a nurse, they can't be turned down because it's politically incorrect. No matter how bad they are. Think about it, do you really want a nurse who has no idea what she's doing?

The problem really isn't racism in itself. It's more like a huge fear of racism that's preventing this country from actually becoming the United States.

Serously, “Black Community”, “White Community”, “Asian Community”… Is this what you call “United?”

And is this issue even a problem elsewhere? Is it just America or what?
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:36PM
Jillers at 11:23AM, Aug. 24, 2006
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Affirmative action is a crock now that there are laws in place to prevent discrimination against a person because of their race, creed…. whatever. Don't get me wrong, I understand why it is in place, and that it definatly needed to be in place when it was put in action.
But now it's just a reason for the black community - who are not all African American - to have this “entitlement” mentality. That they deserve something just because their ancestors were treated like shit.
Shit, most of their families have been in America longer than mine, and longer than a lot of white people.
I mean if you ancestors were treated like shit, and you think you deserve something because of it then go back to your country of origin and demand it, right? I mean, I guess I can always go to Ukraine and demand from them something for the horrid living conditions they forced on their people and half of my family. I can demand something from Italy because of Mussolini right?

The only way racism can ever really stop is if people start seeing themselves as equals - not better, equal. That's the key. I've been saying this for years now - any community that feels that they're not equal will never be equal. It's not for your government or for the other communities around you to make you equal, it's something you've got to believe you are, and then you can fight for it. It's not about “the white man” keeping you down. Rappers don't help their communities much either - first off, rap used to be a movement. Now it's glorifying the “gangsta” life (and overall, bad sense of fashion), and that's what these kids look up to and aspire to be.

You want to be equal, work hard like everyone else.
I mean, same's true for the white trash people.

And I'm not saying all black people have this mentality that they're entitleed to whatever they want. Because they're not. If I'M not allowed to make a joke about black people, they shouldn't be able to make a joke about white people. That's equal.
If a white guy punches a black guy, there's almost an immediate investigation to see if it was a hate crime.
So, equally, if a black guy punches a white guy, there should be a hate crime investigation.
Same goes true for Black/hispanic, hispanic/asian, asian/middle eastern, etc…

Sometimes, poor happens - one income families, maybe only one parent who's on disability (rightfully so) - but it can happen without being a reason to not try.

I don't know, I fucking tired of having white guilt for shit my family didn't even have any part of. I mean, like, the American Dream right? My grandparents, on both sides, came from poverty and shitty situations - did what they had to, and left. They hardly had a penny to their names on both sides, but they went out, got shit jobs, and managed to raise families, and eventually own their own homes. And, it's not as if Eastern European immigrants were very welcome during WWII either (speaking of, they also all learned how to speak, read, and write English), nor did they get great jobs - my grandmother cleaned office buildings at night and my grandfather worked at a gum factory.

You want a nice house? You have to work for it, like every other person… except those people born into money - who, I think, we can all agree, can just die horribly for the most part.

/rant

I don't think we can ever truly be equal, and get jobs and into colleges equally until they do away with that “what's your ethnic background” question, which I alwasy put other - because apparently all white people are the same, it's a good excuse to use social security numbers.

Also, did anyone ever see that FX series Black/White? They turned a white family black and a black famiy white. It showed that black people and white people see racism differently - and that, in every day life, simply moving to the side of a sidewalk, because there's not a lot of room for both you and the black guy walking down the sidewalk in the opposite direction, can be seen as rascist.

Name the demon and it appears.


*I am aware that this post is a long rant with no facts whatsoever, and full of sweeping generalizations that don't hold true for every black person, nor all types of black communities, but for the many that you see that demand entitlment - which are the only ones that make a stink whenever a white person clears their throat (which has happened to me before).
Also the rich kid generalization. Not every rich kid is spoiled… I suppose.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:08PM
LIZARD_B1TE at 11:31AM, Aug. 24, 2006
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Jillers
Also, did anyone ever see that FX series Black/White? They turned a white family black and a black famiy white. It showed that black people and white people see racism differently - and that, in every day life, simply moving to the side of a sidewalk, because there's not a lot of room for both you and the black guy walking down the sidewalk in the opposite direction, can be seen as rascist.

I saw a comercial for it once, thought it looked interesting, but never watched it. It's probably the only reality TV show I actually WANTED to watch, but I didn't get a chance. Meanwhile, my sisters watch Totally Lame Crap (TLC) channel all the time. :(
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:36PM
Ronson at 11:34AM, Aug. 24, 2006
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*I am aware that this post is a long rant with no facts whatsoever, and full of sweeping generalizations that don't hold true for every black person, nor all types of black communities, but for the many that you see that demand entitlment - which are the only ones that make a stink whenever a white person clears their throat (which has happened to me before).

Worse, you made sweeping generalizations based on nothing but your opinion. This is the stereotype that used and doesn't exist.

Far larger than the money we spend on entitlements for the poor (which help them to survive…barely) is the money we give the rich and the corporate structure. We paid companies to move overseas, then gave tax breaks to investment profits. Then we gave government grants to the oil companies to make them drill for oil and overcharge us.

There is soooo much more money being spent to keep the rich wealthy than to keep the poor alive.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:10PM
Ronson at 11:43AM, Aug. 24, 2006
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Probably. Most do.

Though I'm willing to limit the discussion to facts in evidence, citing credible news reports supporting arguments.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:10PM
Ronson at 12:18PM, Aug. 24, 2006
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I disagree. I can find plenty of stories of people struggling to exist with the bare minimum of amenities. I can find plenty of stories about corporate welfare. I can find no end of stories about racial predjudice.

Without using Fox, you won't find evidence of the other side of this: that racism doesn't exist, that minorities think they are owed something because of their skin color … that's a fake story to make middle class white America feel better.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:10PM
BigFishComic at 12:40PM, Aug. 24, 2006
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actually, I know there's evidence going at least one way because I do have one or two books on the subject.

the shape of a river by william G bowen and derek bok discuss the long-term consequences of considering race in college and university admissions using a lot of quantitative research. conclusion? affirmative action is good for various reasons I'm too lazy to look up but I'm sure you guys can google up yourselves.

another book which deals with race in some sections is cultural sociology in practice by laura desfor edles. At one point, she uses the OJ simpson trial to discuss some interesting points about this argument for a “color-blind” society, one were you take each individual as an “equal”

read:

one of the extraordinary features of the ‘trial of the century’ (ie the OJ simpson trial) was the adamant inisistence, especially by ‘white’ americans, that the ‘race card’ not be played. especially in the early stage of the case, the demand was for jurors in particular and americans in general to ignore race in the pursuit of colorblind ‘justice’. the impetus for this demand was two fold. first, the idea was that ‘class’ negated ‘race’ in the oj trial: since the 1960s, the barriers to equality in the United States had been torn down, such that in the 1970s, even a ‘black’ kid from the projects–like oj simpson–could become a wealthy, well-loved celebrity. with his brentwood mansion, his ‘white’ wife, ‘white friends’ and ‘white’ fans, it seemed to many that oj had ‘made it’ not only to the top of ‘black society’ –but the top of ‘white society as well. thus, many thought that even if there were ’remnants' of historical racism against blacks (eg excessive police brutality in ‘minority’ communities), clearly this type of racism ‘did not apply’ to the ‘race neutral’ oj–oj epitomized a ‘new’ type of assimilated, integrated black american.

in addition, the demand for ‘colorblindness’ in the oj case was motivated by the notion that even if there are ‘remnants’ of racism ‘left’ in our justice system (and nation), the only way to erase these ‘remnants’ and truly become a ‘colorblind’ society is to ‘just do it!’ (as the nike slogan proclaims) Akin to the self-help maxim that ‘if you want to be happy just make up your mind to be happy’ akin to the american entrepreneurial ‘can-do’ spirit, the thinking behind the race-neutral ideal is that enough is enough–just BE “colorblind” for goodness sakes!

Yet, this demand for “colorblindness” is most remarkable in a country where “race” has had such a profound historical, institutional, and symbolic foothold.The metaphor of the ‘race card’ presumes a social terrain devoid of race until the ‘race card’ is (illegitimately) introduced. “Racism” is framed only “in terms of the formal exclusion of nonwhites, not in terms of the privileging of whiteness.” (Crenshaw 1997. pg106) In terms of the OJ Trial, “even the scripted declarations that this would not be a race case was itself a constitutive dimension of the racial dynamics of the case” (ibid, pg112)

Most significantly, the whole notion of “colorblindness” is a system of shared meaning especially prominent in “white” but not “black” America today. This differential understanding of “colorblindness” reflects that “blacks” and “whites” (as well as other “racial” and/or “minority” ethnic groups) do not percieve of and experience “race” in the same way. For instance, Carr (1997 pp149-51), finds that 77 percent of white students surveyed said they were “colorblind when it comes to race” –while 60 percent of black students surveyed said they were not. WHen asked what it meant that they were colorblind, ost white students said it meant that they did not discriminate and were not prejudiced or that race means nothing to them. By constrast, the majority of African Americans said things like it is impossible to African American and be colorblind in the united states, and many found the notion of colorblindness offensive.
It is precisely this difference in perception and experience that is behind kinder and sanders's (1996 pp27-31) recent findind that the differences between public opinion about race policy (eg affirmative action) are much more drastic between races than those associated with class. Blauner (1989) also finds that there are two ‘languages’ of race in the United States, one in which members of racial minorities, especially blacks, see the centrality of race in history and everyday experience, and another in which whites see race as ‘a peripheral, nonessential reality“ (as cited by Omi and Winant 1994, pg70-1) Indeed, a recent survey, 76 percent of ”whites“ percieved that black Americans were treated the same as whites in their local community. Only one in two blacks (49 percent) agreed (Gallup and Lindsay 1999, p120)



baldwin (1985), hooks (1991), and Roediger (1998 pg6), among others, argue that historically not only have whites tended to ignore their own racial identity–they have tended to fantasize that ’black people cannot see them' (hooks 1991, pg16) ”A vast amount of the energy that goes into what we call the Negro problem is produced by the white man's desire not to be judged by those who are not white“ (Baldwin 1985, p333) ”Discounting and suppressing the knowledge of whiteness held by people of color was not just a byproduct of white supremacy but an imperative of racial domination.“ (Roediger 1998, p6)

–there's more I'm just too lazy to type it all out. Anyway…

I don't think that everybody is on ”equal" footing and like ccs1989 said, racism has just taken on more subtle tones to treat everybody like equals when they aren't is going to put some at a disadvantage.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:21AM
Comicmasta at 5:24PM, Aug. 24, 2006
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Haha lucky me i live in mexico.
i have been brought back….The Boanitia..grrrrr…..Must find Super Jesus!!!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:43AM
Mimarin at 5:54PM, Aug. 24, 2006
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The African american population of America seems to be really messed up, if not by actual opression then by their own states of mind and general attitudes towards them, the thing is lots of black people are poor, poor families have a tendancy to stay poor unless one of them is an exceptionally driven and hard working person, it isnt so much a race issue I think but a class divide, but that said, in every society racism is present, some people just seem to be assholes for no identifyable reason.

I myself am mixed race (African-american/White english) and I think I got the better side of the coin when it came of my circumstances, being part of a white middle class family in the UK or being part of a poor as hell african american family in new orleans is pretty much a no brainer.

Basicly, its complicated, and it sucks to be poor, and it sucks just a little bit more to be poor AND black, because there ARE without question racist authority figures who will do their best to make sure you never make anything of yourself. And even when you avoid those there are generally people on the street who if you encounter will give you a hard time because you are a different hue to them.

people suck.
Of course you will. All intelligent beings dream. Nobody knows why.

Also, tell random people they are awsome! it helps!
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:02PM
BigFishComic at 12:19AM, Aug. 25, 2006
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more quoting from edles:

One of the most important books impacting this discussion has been William Julius Wilson's provactively titled The Declining Significance of Race (1978). In this book, Wilson argues that since the late 1960s, the ‘life chances’ of black youths have been determined by their class position, not by the color of their skin. Wilson maintains that after state-enforced raial inequality was eliminated by civil rights legislation, blacks were admitted to the society-wide system of economic stratification, rather than being confined to a specific location by racial segregation (Omi and Winant 1994, pg27) The result was a black community stratified into a small privileged ‘class’ whose opportunities are equivalent to those of whites with similiar high levels of training and skills, and a massive black ‘underclass’ which is relegated to permanent marginality.

On one hand, Wilson's book aptly demonstrates that ‘racial’ straficiation is often a guise, or front for economic stratification. In other words, Wilson underscores that what often are percieved to be racial differences between groups, are actually class differences; such ‘racial’ differences between social groups disappear if we take into account class positition. In addition, Wilson emphasizes that the movement of capital is to a large extent ‘colorblind’; large scale demographic, economic, and political chances (such as suburbanization and federal housing policy) that have little to dow ith race have negatively impacted our inner cities. In sum, wilson argues that the problems that plague our inner cities have structural–not ‘racial’–roots; inner-city problems seem like ‘race’ problems )and, arguably, they become ‘race’ problems) only because large minority populations live in these communities.

Nevertheless, the obvious problem with Wilson's thesis is its implied ‘zero-sum’ foundation: ‘class and race are not antithetical…’more class' does not necessarily mean ‘less race’." (Blauner 1989) That social class looms fateful in racial stratification today says nothing about racialization, or the potent symbolic aspect of race.

Put in another way, ‘class’ and ‘race’ are not simply macro-level institutional structures, but complex social and symbolic structures, created and maintained through ritual and representation. As we will see, race ‘matters’ because racial discourses inform how individuals experience their world and theorize and act on their material conditions. "chang the boundary of rational behavior." (Boswell 1986, pp354-4…)

Yet, ironically, while Wilson sought to demonstate the importance of class structures, (eg employment opportunities and the lack thereof) in the creation and maintenance of inequality in the United States; conservatives and the media interpret Wilson's book as an affirmation of racial egalitarianism. In complete contradiction to what Wilson maintained, the ‘declining significance of race’ was turned into a social psychological phenomenon. In which, 'making it' became a function not of race or class; but of individual characteristics (such as willpower, talent, personality, etc) In this (mis)reading of Wilson, the Declining Significance of Race was coterminous with The Cosby Show–both demonstrating that if blacks want to make it, they can. Moreover, Wilson's differentiation between a small, successful black middle class, and a larger, alienated black ‘underclass’ vicariously affirmed an emerging popular dichotomy between ‘good’ (assimilated, middle-class) and ‘bad’ (unassimilated, poor) blacks. This dichotomy is often verbalized much in the way that Joe Hicks, executive director of human relations commisions, recently observed: ‘wherever you go, whoever you talk to…people want their kids educated,they want good jobs, they want affordable, clean housing, they want what everybody else wants." We are all really ’the same' There are ‘good’ and ‘bad’ blacks, just as there are ‘good’ and ‘bad’ whites. Some make it and some do not, but this is primarily because of their individual choices and situations.

In recent years, liberal social psychologists and sociologists have challenged this neo-conservative social psychological argument by replacing it with their own social psychological arguments. Social scientists such as (blah blah you don't care) reject the notion that African Americans are themselves to blame for their place at the bottom of America's social hierarchy, by showing that while overt, blatant bigotry has sharply declined in this post-civil rights period, nevertheless, there is a new, more subtle ‘laissez-faire racism’ today. These analysts have conducted numerous surveys and found not the ‘declining significance’ of race in contemporary American society, but the continuing significance of racism.

What is this ‘new racism’ all about? Interestingly, implicitly or explicitly, many social psychologists and sociologists conceptualize the 'new racism' as specifically anti-black. For instance, Bobo, Kluegel, and Smith (1997, p16) define ‘laissez-faire’ racism as a ‘kinder, gentler, anti-black ideology.’; ‘laissez-faire racism involves persistent negative stereotyping of African Americans, a tendency to blame blacks themselves for the black-white gap in socioeconomic standing, and resistance to meaningful policy efforts to ameliorate US racist social conditions and institutions.’ Bobo, Kluegal, and Smith go on to explain why racism still exists by arguing that in every historical period the social psychological make-up of a society follows from its structural situation. Thus, just as there was slavery/overt racism in the plantation economy, and ‘jim crow’ racism (or separate, but equal) in the ‘jim crow’ era: today we have ‘laissez-faire racism’ in this ‘laissez-fair’ capitalist society. According to Bobo, Klegal, and Smith (1997, pp21-2) “a significant segement of white America effectively condones as much black disadvantage and segregation as the legacy of historical discrimination and modern-day free market forces and informal social mechanisms can reproduce or even exacerbate.”

Yet, like Wilson, Bobo et al. seamlessly fuses social structural and social psychological variables without exploring cultural phenomenon. The proble, is that while ‘a significant segment of America’ undoubtly ‘condones black disadvantages’ as Bobo et al. insists; this attitude is only a small piece of the complex, historical phenomena of racialization. We must take a look not merely at economic structures and individual attitues but the semiotics, or genealogy, of ‘race’ in the united states.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:21AM
blackaby at 4:58AM, Aug. 25, 2006
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blackaby
Having a history of slavery can be completely emasculating for any race, and it does filter through to future generations.

Now, I know this isn't a slavery issue but I'm part Cherokee. So, are you saying that I should naturally be anti government because of what the USA did some ancestors of mine? And are you also saying that certain other groups should naturally discriminate against me because a small bit of my blood is Native American?

Um. No, that's not what I'm saying. That'd be like me saying that because I've got some Jewish blood that I'm going to have a Bat Mitzvah and learn Hebrew. Either I've completely mistaken what you're trying to say there, or you've completely mistaken what I am. :D

LIZARD_B1TE
And, remember after slaves were freed, many of them had nowhere to go, and ended up in more or less the same situation. And, in a sense, a worse situation because this time they were constantly tantalized by a promise of freedom. I'm not saying that slavery was good, but many freed slaves ended up in pretty bad situations.

Yeah, a whole heap of the slaves wished they were still enslaved after they were ‘freed’, according to what I learnt in university.

I'll come back after lunch and see if I can phrase things a little better so that folks'll understand my meanings. :D
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:23AM
Ronson at 5:43AM, Aug. 25, 2006
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I think you're right, equinox. So I'll pull out as well.

But I will reiterate that it is only racism as tied to class warfare. And that those that regard people who need welfare as less hardworking and less worthy have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA WHAT THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT.

okay, I'm done now.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:10PM
ccs1989 at 6:07AM, Aug. 25, 2006
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The problem with the issue of race is that blacks, since the time of slavery, have been in a lower social standing than whites. Things didn't even begin to sort themselves out until the 1950's. Because of black codes and then Jim Crow laws, blacks were surpressed for another 100 years after they were suppossed to have become free.

Now that blatant racism has died down, people think that it's no longer around. However we still see that blacks are in a worse position than whites and that there is a huge disparity between median incomes between the races (I choose median income because averages can be messed up by the few really rich). The liberal idea is that social programs will fix the problem. The coservative idea is that blacks should just start working harder (live up to the American Dream and all that nonsense). I think the answer lies somewhere in the middle, but also in education. If we could better educate minorities, this wouldn't happen. And then stereotypes would fall away slowly.

Unfortunatly people of a certain race are influenced by stereotypes. If the stereotype of a black person is a rapper, then that will influence them. If the stereotype of a white is a corporate businessman, that will influence them. So it's very complex. To break down stereotypes we need to change the stereotypes, but we can only do that by proving the stereotypes wrong.
http://ccs1989.deviantart.com

“If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.”
-Henry David Thoreau, Walden
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:38AM
Mimarin at 3:22PM, Aug. 25, 2006
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You know, it would be nice if we had a topic that was about racism outside the confines of America, it may be pretty fucked up there, but everywhere else has racism too.
Of course you will. All intelligent beings dream. Nobody knows why.

Also, tell random people they are awsome! it helps!
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:02PM
Comicmasta at 4:06PM, Aug. 25, 2006
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THEN LUCKY YOU IM HERE!!!!!! the outside of america topic shall be made!!!!
i have been brought back….The Boanitia..grrrrr…..Must find Super Jesus!!!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:43AM
lothar at 6:04AM, Aug. 31, 2006
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American Dream ? is that still around ?
i thought it died in a Hostile takover by Walmart and Fox news !
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:45PM
ccs1989 at 7:23AM, Aug. 31, 2006
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posts: 2,656
joined: 1-2-2006
http://ccs1989.deviantart.com

“If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.”
-Henry David Thoreau, Walden
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:38AM

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