Debate and Discussion

The Atheists Are Brainwashing Your Children!
Zerglingleader at 7:38AM, Aug. 11, 2008
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So I've been reading a few of these debate threads and I have to say I am EXTREMELY pleasantly surprised. I can't believe I've managed to find a place on the internet with actual intelligence and… you know… opinions that are coherent. So before I got into my topic I just wanted to say, give yourselves a pat on the back. I'm glad to see that at least on DrunkDuck the human population isn't devolving into primates.

I was born and raised catholic in a VERY christian atmosphere. And it's interesting to see myself back then and now. when your young you pretty much go with whatever your told. You follow your religion and you don't understand why. Then adolescence hits. For me anyway, I felt like I needed to prove something. I needed to show god that I was with him. So I joined a youth group. I was so shrouded in the christian religion that I convinced myself that I was having an enlightened experience. I imagined that I could feel god's love. I always had this feeling during those sessions. I silenced it because it got in the way of my “Worship.” I realize now that during the youth group what I felt was that I was uncomfortable. So much seemed to conflict with something in my head and I didn't seem to understand why. I realized that it was my opinion.

I used to get angry with Atheist because that's how I was told to react by the church. They said I needed to “save” them. but most of the Atheists I know are very good people. This, along with the fact that I'm a pretty deep thinker, added to my confusion. What did these relatively good people need to be saved from? If they simply didn't share the same belief system as me, was I to cast them aside? In a youth-group Q and A, the question was brought up about what to do if you had Atheist friends. The pastor, who was a young man that most of us could relate to, told us if they didn't want god's love, then your better off without them. Translation: If you can't convert them, lose them. I found this answer very unsettling. What were so bad about atheists? Why was the christian population so afraid of them. Whenever they're talked about in a christian way, they are depicted as evil, snivelling cowards without faith. What they had was reasoning. Was that really the way it has to be? Faith or reasoning? anyway, here's my point.

I think that To be completely devoted to catholacism, one must completely ignore their opinions, intelligence, sense of judgment, and exclude all other walks of life from your living experience. It is a church that uses propaganda and a great deal of effort so that their followers don't “lose faith.” I think that before one devotes himself to a religion in which they are constantly judged and told how to live their lives, one must judge the judges and decide with an open mind wether to become the sheep of a contradictive following. I disagree with the church's need to boycott everything that's different and knew. Case in point, the Golden Compass. The His Dark Materials series is my favorite book series of all time. It is a series that speaks of free will and free thinking, to things that catholics seem to find very dangerous. It judges and is against the Magesterium, the overarching power in Lyra's world. They exclude free will and tell their people how to act and what to belive in. This outraged catholics, and it isn't because the books were about catholacism. They werent. It was the fact that catholics automatically assumed that the Magesterium was a reference to their religion. So by boycotting this movie, aren't the catholics admitting that they are an organization similar to the magesterium, but don't want to be depicted that way. My only regret is that now the whole contraversy has blown over, and I never got to go head to head with one of these ignorant religious nutcases.

anyway, do you have a religious preference, and do you disagree or agree with my thoughts on christianity. I myself am Agnostic. I believe that there is a higher power, but I think that the idea of a human-run oranized religion telling me what that higher power is is completley idiotic. so what are your thoughts?
~Zergling
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:57PM
Product Placement at 8:06AM, Aug. 11, 2008
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Zerglingleader
I'm glad to see that at least on DrunkDuck the human population isn't devolving into primates.

Hurf Durf. I hate your opinion and tell you to piss of while I have no strong counterpoints to give. Hurf Durf.

No seriously, It's a good article and all. I myself was raised as a Lutherin. It's the original protestant faith, so to speak, sparked by Martin Luther who wanted to reform catholicism. The end result caused a split in the faith and divided it into two religions.

I myself am a strong opposer of organized religion and extremism in faith. I fully believe that all of mankind was held back throughout the dark ages thanks to the catholic church and now Islamic extremists are recruiting people to perform acts of terror through the medium of faith.

There is nothing wrong with belief I suppose. But if there is something greater then us out there that is so beyond us that we can not perceive it then wouldn't you consider it arrogant that a group of people claimed they knew it's intentions and desire?

I can't call myself an atheist. I guess I'm agnostic as well. I believe that there's something better than us out there. Whether or not it loves us or is even remotely aware of us or comes in a form we can comprehend or not I dare not say. I don't know and none of us does. That is my view on the issue.
Those were my two cents.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 2:49PM
Zerglingleader at 10:26AM, Aug. 11, 2008
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wow… I completely agree. well put.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:57PM
Product Placement at 10:42AM, Aug. 11, 2008
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^^

I got complimented.
Those were my two cents.
If you have any other questions, please deposit a quarter.
This space for rent.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:49PM
Ronson at 2:58PM, Aug. 11, 2008
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I think there's a trap in believing that any belief system is inferior to others, but we all do that to one extent or another. I think that when belief systems seek to harm or subjugate others, that's where the problems are.

While I am an atheist, and I have a very strong trust in rational thought and logic, I'm not blind to the fact that life is full of questions I just don't have answers for. I just prefer to say that “I don't know” instead of trusting someone else who claims to have all the answers. I don't think of believers in any particular religion as stupid, ignorant or even clueless. I just think their brains are wired differently than mine and hope they can peacefully coexist with everyone.

I heard a recent Penn Jillette bit that basically held this test to see if you're an atheist or not:

If God contacted you (in a manner that made you certain of His identity) and told you to kill your son/daughter/loved one, would you do it?

He says that if you answered “No” to that question, then deep down you're an atheist. He says that if you answered “Yes” then he wants you to stay far away from him.

I think that most people with any sort of religious belief would probably answer “I don't know” unless pushed. That, I guess, would be agnosticism.

It seems like a very fair test for anyone using the stories of the Old Testament to form their faith, it seems to me, since one of the “good guys” in that book is the one who nearly kills his son because God told him to.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:10PM
DAJB at 3:15PM, Aug. 11, 2008
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Hmmm - it seems to me you've had a very unfortunate experience of religion. Yes, religious extremism can be dangerous; and, yes, if you believe that belonging to a faith means mindlessly obeying every dictat of every clergyman then, by definition, you're giving up your right to free thought …

But - and I should add I'm speaking as an atheist here - most religious people are not extremists and most do not give up their right to form their own opinions about which tenets make sense in their lives and which ones don't.

Most Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus and Sikhs (for example) are perfectly capable of making friends in other faiths (and indeed with atheists and agnostics) without worrying about whether some priest or youth leader believes they should. Yes, organised religions have a lot of rules about what you should and shouldn't believe, but it's also true that some of the most progressive thinkers throughout history have belonged to organised religions (and indeed have brought about change within those religions, working “from the inside” ).

I'm delighted that you no longer feel anger towards atheists but it does sound rather as if you've redirected that anger towards Catholicism. And you know what the Jedi say about anger leading to the Dark Side …!
;-)
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:03PM
kyupol at 5:25PM, Aug. 11, 2008
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I read that original post and I agree with most of what you said.

I also noticed the trend in other forums in where its always the atheists vs the fundamental christians in endless debate that mostly end up in flame wars and personal attacks.

The way I see it, atheism could be another trap to imprison the minds of humans to keep them fighting with each other and to keep them from realizing what they really are (humans should be given more credit than what mainstream science and religion say).
The thing I dont like about atheism is how it asserts that this world is all there is. That there is nothing beyond that and you are just a collection of chemicals that just so happened to randomly evolve into the sentient being that a human is.

While atheists claim to be free thinkers, they also fall into the same trap as the religious fundamentalists who they routinely bash. They refuse to expand their horizons and totally rule out the existence of a God or other powers or high technology that can be called magic.


From personal experience, I was a hardcore Catholic at first. Being sent to an Opus Dei school for most of my life. At one point I was even saying that all abortionists and homosexuals should be burned at stake. Then when I got out of school, I was exposed to the other perspective of things. After being bombarded all the time with the same old propaganda about how abortion, divorce, euthanasia, gay marriages, etc. are all evil.

It was interesting. Then I became atheist for awhile. As a result of my constant questioning of religious dogma. For instance, it doesnt make sense that masturbation and looking at porn is a sin. You're not really hurting anyone by doing that. Also it doesnt make sense how a priest is supposed to be sworn to a life of celibacy. Cmon. That drives you insane. I tried not jacking off for a month or looking at porn. Its wasn't the best kind of experience. lol!

But later on, being an atheist has made me feel empty inside. It doesnt give me peace in my soul thinking that I'm just a biological entity with no soul.



That is why today, all I can say is I'm searching for the truth. I feel disillusioned by everything and I AM skeptical of everything these days.

Even that 3rd option you call the “New Age spirituality”. While it seemed cool at first, I found out how it advocates for population control and one world government (HELLO!!! ITS PRO NEW WORLD ORDER!!!). And all this stuff about channeling entities. Like wtf is that? How would you know if that entity you channeled is a good one or a bad one? How sure are you that you are not being deceived?

Well some of these new-agers talk about 3rd or 4th or 5th eyes that help you see the truth or something… then how sure are you that that entity you are speaking to is telling the truth? The bible said that Satan is a great deceiver and God knows if thats really Satan (on side note, there are some who say that the biblical demons = reptilians) deceiving you. It doesnt matter if you got an extra eye open.


Anyway… long rant. I wasnt expecting to go off this long. But all I can say is the truth is out there and I will find it.



NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:26PM
Zerglingleader at 6:34PM, Aug. 11, 2008
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Finally! I don't have to lower my vocabulary level to communicate! this forum is like the Eureka of the internet! you all gave valid points and put up a rousing topic for discussion. I have no thoughts on other religions, but I still think that one who blindly follows christianity needs to close off the rest of the world to do so
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:57PM
Product Placement at 9:45PM, Aug. 11, 2008
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Vocabulary? Communicate? What is this?
Those were my two cents.
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This space for rent.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:49PM
kaleygeminni at 9:16AM, Aug. 12, 2008
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I kinda get what people are talking about here. Like you, I'm also glad to find forums that are frequented by beings of favorable intelligence. I was also raised Catholic but I've always been very uncomfortable in church. I used every excuse in the book to not attend church (feigning sickness and more pressing academic issues) until finally I realized that Christianity simply wasn't a religion to which I belonged. I do believe in a higher power but I was simply too much of a feminist and deep thinker back then. Also, I'm half Filipina and half American and I spent a few years in the Philippines. There is simply no religion other than Christianity (and a few Muslims) there. We weren't hostile towards people who weren't Christians, but it was a simple fact of life that Christianity was as essential to life as breathing. When I got to the States, I could breathe again. :) Then I got confused. I've always believed in a higher power but I couldn't put a name to it.
I'm Wiccan. And I've come to believe that every religion has its black sheep and its embarassments. Christianity has its Jehovah's Witnesses and Wicca has its pretentious goths. I'm okay with goth style and music, but I HATE it when they claim to practice black magick and such and call themselves Wiccans. Christians in general AREN'T that bad and the good ones are really decent people who simply believe in kindness and decency. And the more level-headed Wiccans are simply nature-lovers and quirky/artsy when it comes down to it.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:13PM
Ronson at 4:44PM, Aug. 12, 2008
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I want to highlight a few remarks you made, kyupol, because they are arguments I hear fairly often.

kyupol
I also noticed the trend in other forums in where its always the atheists vs the fundamental christians in endless debate that mostly end up in flame wars and personal attacks.

No kidding. For a while, I was hanging around in the CARM forums and every time I tried to link to evolutionary science sites or actually quote from the bible I was banned for “attacking” and “violating the rules” … it was a violation to use scientifically verified facts that supported nonreligious beliefs. I left before things got too messy. :)

The way I see it, atheism could be another trap to imprison the minds of humans to keep them fighting with each other and to keep them from realizing what they really are (humans should be given more credit than what mainstream science and religion say).

I think any belief system can do that, so I pretty much agree. For most atheists though, accepting atheism is only the first step, after that comes the real quest for knowledge and meaning.

The thing I dont like about atheism is how it asserts that this world is all there is. That there is nothing beyond that and you are just a collection of chemicals that just so happened to randomly evolve into the sentient being that a human is.

I can understand not liking it, but to me this seems like someone not liking it when it rains - it doesn't stop the rain.

I also wonder if most people really would like to live in the paranormal world run by the god of any chosen religion. I can think of precious few religions who's rules are (a) acheivable and (b) 100% pleasant. When I think of any of the different versions of Christianity out there, few of them actually suggest that we persue life, liberty and happiness. In fact, most Christian religions make a point out of making sinful the things worth living for.

While atheists claim to be free thinkers, they also fall into the same trap as the religious fundamentalists who they routinely bash. They refuse to expand their horizons and totally rule out the existence of a God or other powers or high technology that can be called magic.

There are some atheists that tend to get fundamentalist when cornered. I used to a bit. But when you are assaulted often with smug (though irrational) certainties espoused by New Age and Christian Evangelicalism, it can be tiring.

I think overall though, when push comes to shove, an atheist has to admit that they are not 100% sure of the nonexistance of God … or unicorns or space aliens. They just believe that they are all very, very improbable.

As for high technology being called magic, that's from Superman's interaction with Mxyzptlk :) Seriously, I think that's exactly what a lot of atheists believe in regards to the so-called miracles of yore. They were events that science can now explain, but back then they seemed like magic…so I don't quite get what you're saying there.

But later on, being an atheist has made me feel empty inside. It doesnt give me peace in my soul thinking that I'm just a biological entity with no soul.

The point of atheism isn't to make you feel good. It is a conclusion many people come to after evaluating all the available evidence. It isn't supposed to make anything easier, better or to make you superior to the believers out there.

It's just a conclusion and nothing more.

I don't know many atheists who come to that conclusion quickly or easily, and I know more than a few that deny the conclusion until they feel the evidence is overwhelming.

And it's just a starting point. If you get rid of the paranormal dressing to people's feelings about life, what's left? Some folks might get nihilistic and feel that there's no point, others might think that the point is to live, love and search for happiness. By removing the yoke of other people's religous beliefs, you are responsible for your own destiny in a way religous people never will be.

That is why today, all I can say is I'm searching for the truth. I feel disillusioned by everything and I AM skeptical of everything these days.

I think skepticism is healthy. I think disillusionment is based on unrealistic expectations, but we all have that as well so I can't help you there.

Anyway… long rant. I wasnt expecting to go off this long. But all I can say is the truth is out there and I will find it.

Keep us posted.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:10PM
kyupol at 6:04PM, Aug. 12, 2008
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No kidding. For a while, I was hanging around in the CARM forums and every time I tried to link to evolutionary science sites or actually quote from the bible I was banned for “attacking” and “violating the rules” … it was a violation to use scientifically verified facts that supported nonreligious beliefs. I left before things got too messy.

I just checked out that website and there is that tendency in religious groups to become totalitarian in a way. Thats one of the reasons why I left Catholicism.

You know, in where opposing views are not tolerated. Even the slightest criticism isn't tolerated. Thats why there's all this arguement between protestant vs catholic vs baptist vs any other sect that calls itself “christian”. Its really annoying but that illustrates human nature.


I can understand not liking it, but to me this seems like someone not liking it when it rains - it doesn't stop the rain.

I see your point about atheism. But how do you explain that internal struggle in my soul telling me that I got it wrong? Its the feeling in your gut that something is wrong. After you made a bad decision or something. I had that same feeling when I was a hardcore Catholic. That something is wrong. I can't really articulate it properly but all I can say is that its the emptiness inside the soul. As of now I still feel that something is lacking but it isnt as bad as how I used to feel.

You know, the explanation that makes the most sense to me is the concept of the “higher self”. That is the part of you that is more intelligent and more knowledgeable than the “you” that is inhabiting this reality. It is also the one referred to by Christian groups as your conscience.

It is not a separate entity though. I disagree with those new-agers when they mention spirit guides that are separate entities. Because like what I said earlier, if a non-human entity will introduce itself as your spirit guide, that entity is most likely a demon pretending to be something else. And since demons arent dumb, they know exactly what buttons to push in order to deceive you.

As for high technology being called magic, that's from Superman's interaction with Mxyzptlk Seriously, I think that's exactly what a lot of atheists believe in regards to the so-called miracles of yore. They were events that science can now explain, but back then they seemed like magic…so I don't quite get what you're saying there.

As far as high technology = magic, please note that technology is not always equal to the mechanical things. Technology can be mastery of the spiritual. As evidenced by things like psychic healing, remote viewing, astral projection, lucid dreaming, etc.

Who knows. What if our soul and/our body is actually a very complex machine and not something that you call biological just because its made up of cells.


By removing the yoke of other people's religous beliefs, you are responsible for your own destiny in a way religous people never will be.

I believe in this, actually. That I am responsible for and that I control my own destiny.

What I dont understand is how some atheists utterly and totally reject the spiritual but would readily accept medicines that enslave you. Such as vaccines, fluoride, coccaine, prozac, etc.


Keep us posted.

As far as the “truth” is concerned, here is a summary of some of my beliefs (tentatively speaking… may change as I gather more information):

- I believe in a God but not too much in organized religion.

- This world is not all there is. There is always something behind the curtain. Be it government, politics, or the very nature of reality.

- Things like demons, angels, vampires, reptoids, werewolves, psychic abilities, etc. could possibly exist because the nature of reality is a reality of multiple dimensions that are similar to radio stations. Concepts of heaven and hell are just simplified explanations of it. I don't think there was a malicious intent of using religion to control the population in the beginning. It was just a way of explaining reality to the common people and was somehow corrupted by religious authorities as time went by.


Anyway, I've read somewhere that there are 3 types of people on earth.

1) laggards - ones that follow blindly. Doesnt matter if you are a complete atheist or religious fundamentalist.

2) seeker - one that questions everything. Disillusioned by mainstream secularism and religious fundamentalism. Some seekers however are drawn to the “new age” and this whole spiritist concept. Then they get addicted to talking to their pet demons (aka channeled entities) and it leads them to entrapment. You know, like being possessed by a demon.

3) mystic - someone who is enlightened and who has a way advanced comprehension of the truth and the nature of reality.


wow. way to generalize… Well, that isn't my own theory. Maybe its just a rough idea and there are many layers in between those three. And maybe I am a “seeker”. I don't know. :)
NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:26PM
Ronson at 9:29PM, Aug. 12, 2008
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I don't want to quibble with your opinions point for point, but I do think it's important for me to point out that the things you refer to as “truths” aren't that at all by any technical definition.

Astral projection, God, and all supernatural phenomena are believed in based on nothing besides “gut feelings.”

This is all well and good, but it isn't a “truth” Just an opinion.

As an atheist, I believe in what is real… that is, observable scientific phenomena.

On top of that, I have my unprovable “gut feelings” as well. I believe people are essentially good (but often too scared to allow the goodness to guide Them). I believe Praline's and Cream ice cream is the best flavor on Earth. These aren't truths any more than your belief in God or werewolves or other realities.

Until you can show people these things or at least tell them how to perceive These things, they're just your opinions. Which is fine, so long as you don't force your opinions on others or feel your opinions trump mine (or anyone's).

Truths are found in science and maths - though all too often human error creates “wrong science”. I think that there are some universe truths that have been proven. Things like gravity, propulsion systems and electrical engineering … even some astronomical theories have been supported with observations.

It's important to differentiate between truth and opinion. If you don't, you'll only find The latter.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:10PM
TheMidge28 at 11:01AM, Aug. 13, 2008
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Ronson
I don't want to quibble with your opinions point for point, but I do think it's important for me to point out that the things you refer to as “truths” aren't that at all by any technical definition.

Astral projection, God, and all supernatural phenomena are believed in based on nothing besides “gut feelings.”

This is all well and good, but it isn't a “truth” Just an opinion.

As an atheist, I believe in what is real… that is, observable scientific phenomena.

On top of that, I have my unprovable “gut feelings” as well. I believe people are essentially good (but often too scared to allow the goodness to guide Them). I believe Praline's and Cream ice cream is the best flavor on Earth. These aren't truths any more than your belief in God or werewolves or other realities.

Until you can show people these things or at least tell them how to perceive These things, they're just your opinions. Which is fine, so long as you don't force your opinions on others or feel your opinions trump mine (or anyone's).

Truths are found in science and maths - though all too often human error creates “wrong science”. I think that there are some universe truths that have been proven. Things like gravity, propulsion systems and electrical engineering … even some astronomical theories have been supported with observations.

It's important to differentiate between truth and opinion. If you don't, you'll only find The latter.


Have you ever seen Contact with Jodie Foster and Matthew Mochaunahee(sp?)?
At the end of the movie Jodie Foster's character in the movie is attempting time travel with information pulled from clicks and bings from the universe. To the scientific community and the world the big experiment at the end is a failure. However for Jodie's character she was transported to another world and communicated with an alien and yadda-yadda… yadda. For her she could not prove this experience but believed it without a doubt…faith?

This movie for me really defines the dialogue between faith and science.
For all the scientific data gathered, the personal experience of an individual will be the most compelling to themselves. I know that may seem self evident but many of us in our everyday lives seem to shrug that idea off. It echoes the core premise in kyupol's posts: Search for truth.

What you find may surprise you and may not be able proven.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:25PM
bravo1102 at 3:23PM, Aug. 13, 2008
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TheMidge28
Have you ever seen Contact with Jodie Foster and Matthew Mochaunahee(sp?)?
At the end of the movie Jodie Foster's character in the movie is attempting time travel with information pulled from clicks and bings from the universe. To the scientific community and the world the big experiment at the end is a failure. However for Jodie's character she was transported to another world and communicated with an alien and yadda-yadda… yadda. For her she could not prove this experience but believed it without a doubt…faith?

This movie for me really defines the dialogue between faith and science.
For all the scientific data gathered, the personal experience of an individual will be the most compelling to themselves. I know that may seem self evident but many of us in our everyday lives seem to shrug that idea off. It echoes the core premise in kyupol's posts: Search for truth.

What you find may surprise you and may not be able proven.

And Contact was written by a rational champion of humanism, free-thinking, populizer of science and atheism; Carl Sagan. (with his wife Ann Druyan, also an atheist)

Yes, atheists can be mystical and spiritual because we should always endevour to acknowledge that “There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”

The high technology being indiscernable from magic is Clarke's Axiom as in the late Sir Arthur C. Clarke. Another free thinker, rational, atheist who held with all the things espoused by Ronson and asked for proof of all the things held by kyupol as truths. When that proof was not forthcoming, he rejected those hypotheses. Scientific method.

In my worthless opinion Arthur C. Clarke and Carl Sagan both belong in that third category mentioned by kyupol.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:33AM
Hawk at 3:28PM, Aug. 13, 2008
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That's a pretty dang good point, Midge. It's kind of why I think we can't purely shrug off religion.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:46PM
SpANG at 6:41PM, Aug. 13, 2008
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TheMidge28
…For her she could not prove this experience but believed it without a doubt…faith?
Or it would have been a good point if that was correct. Did you miss the ending? She DID prove it and rational thought won again.
“To a rational mind, nothing is inexplicable. Only unexplained.”
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:53PM
Ronson at 8:32PM, Aug. 13, 2008
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I might be making my point badly, but I think we all are pretty much agreeing.

I'm not a scientist. I'm not a mathematician. I have to believe that the scientific process - though occasionally derailed due to human error - is essentially rational at it's core. As proof I give you all the technology and medicine that science has brought us. Even something as horribly destructive as nuclear weapons work as a result of highly developed and proven scientific hypothesis.

But I believe that it was science and not magic because I feel the evidence proves this. And I use “belief” and “feel” very specifically because I trust the evidence I've learned about without the knowledge or ability to test it myself.

Most atheists that aren't brilliant scientists have a similar belief system. Most who are do to.

But can an atheist be “spiritual” or “mystical”? Nope. By definition, an atheist believes in the real world, and both spiritual and mystical beliefs exist outside of nature (otherwise it would just be nature). If there are atheists who have spiritual or mystical beliefs, I would suggest that they aren't atheists, or really haven't fully realized the nature of atheism.

At the same time, an atheist can be optimistic, passionate or sentimental. Because they're human.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:10PM
kyupol at 8:37PM, Aug. 13, 2008
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For all the scientific data gathered, the personal experience of an individual will be the most compelling to themselves.

Well said. I wish I had more intellect to be able to properly articulate my thoughts. Thats exactly what I wanna say.

As somebody searching for the truth I've read alot of stuff and looked at 3 sides in particular. The atheist, the religious, and the “new age”. So far I'd say that ALL OF THEM have truth but not the complete truth or sometimes shrouded with a political agenda. So far here's my impression on the 3 sides (which could be wrong or a result of misunderstanding).

atheist - seems to have an agenda to discredit religion, spirituality and alternative medicine. I get the impression its part of a conspiracy to make people feel worthless. I smell big pharma or big government could be payrolling them.

religious - seems to have an agenda of a religious dictatorship. In where morality is determined by a few clerics.

“New Age” - seems to be calling for one world religion, population control, and one world government. Smells like a front of the New World Order and/or directly controlled by Satan with the purpose of luring away those who can't be fooled by the secular and religious approach.


Reading is one thing, and experiencing them is another. As I am still skeptical of things like the reptoids, astral projection, psychic surgery, galactic federation, etc.



While these may be dismissed as ramblings of another insane guy, these are some of the things that led me to the current things I believe as “truth”. I do not know how to scientifically prove this.

a) when focusing my eyes I start seeing things in the sky. Best described as small white particles moving at a rapid speed. As well as geometric formations including something that looks EXACTLY like orion's belt. Sometimes I see something that looks like a snake, sometimes I see a triangular formation. When I asked a psychic about it, I was told it was the Merkaba and I'm only seeing a portion of it because my 3rd eye isn't developed enough.

b) That psychic I asked. He was able to tell me things I never tell anyone. Um… Myspace? Facebook? He hacked my computer? Search me in myspace and facebook and there's barely anything there.

c) It happens consistently. Everytime I meditate before sleeping I end up experiencing a really vivid dream that I remember when I wake… or have a lucid dream.

d) I prayed to the Lord. I asked him a favor. If it isnt granted to me I will NEVER AGAIN believe in God and it will be finally proven that God does not exist and this world is all there is. It was like my final ultimatum to God. It was like me challenging God to prove me his existence. I remember it was at the point during my atheist phase. Feeling confused and depressed at the same time.



Anyway, I wish you all good luck in finding the truth (whatever it is).


As the cliche says: the truth shall set you free :)

NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:26PM
Ronson at 9:13PM, Aug. 13, 2008
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For all the scientific data gathered, the personal experience of an individual will be the most compelling to themselves.

But that doesn't make it rational or true. it doesn't even make it compelling for anyone else.

kyupol
atheist - seems to have an agenda to discredit religion, spirituality and alternative medicine. I get the impression its part of a conspiracy to make people feel worthless. I smell big pharma or big government could be payrolling them.

That's alright, I get the impression that folks who believe in the paranormal are just unable to think critically or too lazy to find real answers.:)

The simple fact is that aside from psychological comfort or distress, there isn't a shred of proof that religion or spirituality is anything but a mental crutch for dealing with reality.(Again, we all have mental crutches, but it's important to identify and hopefully outgrow them.)

As for “alternative” medicine, I won't completely discount it. There are treatments and substances that may work - but only due to rations, scientific reasons. That science may not have figured it out yet doesn't mean it's magic.





last edited on July 14, 2011 3:10PM
StaceyMontgomery at 9:40PM, Aug. 13, 2008
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kyupol
atheist - seems to have an agenda to discredit religion, spirituality and alternative medicine. I get the impression its part of a conspiracy to make people feel worthless. I smell big pharma or big government could be payrolling them.

Oh please. That's just insulting. I could just as easily say:

Conspiracy Theorist - Has an agenda that vast & secret forces are responsible for everything - I get the impression they want everyone to feel as worthless and helpless as they feel, perhaps to cover up their own failures? Or perhaps they are all on the payroll of vast evil conspiracies - because who else would benefit from us all feeling so helpless? Therefore, they are all traitors to the species.

kyupol
For all the scientific data gathered, the personal experience of an individual will be the most compelling to themselves.

Oh do speak for yourself - That's just not true for everyone. For many of us, the “most compelling” is the evidence that can be weighed and tested and proven, and the knowledge we can derive from that evidence. That's the kind of knowledge you can actually use and accomplish things with.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:55PM
DAJB at 12:12AM, Aug. 14, 2008
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kyupol
atheist - seems to have an agenda to discredit religion, spirituality and alternative medicine. I smell big pharma or big government could be payrolling them.
If that's true then, speaking as a self-avowed atheist, I want my pay-cheque! Where is it?! I've been an atheist for years and never received a damn penny!
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:03PM
Mr V at 5:58AM, Aug. 14, 2008
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I boil it all down to ‘my imaginary friend is better than your imaginary friend’ and then, if they find that amusing, then they've got their head screwed on properly no matter what religion they are. :)

I treat most religious teachings and stories as fables and codes by which people should live (because I'm pretty sure that's what they originally were intended to be, but I'm no expert… this could just be my own kind of ‘faith’). If there's some bloke up there watching down on us all the all well and good. I'll just assume that, whether I believe in him or not, if I just do the best I can and leave the place a little neater than I found it, then if he ever notices me he'll recognise I've tried to do a good job and tip his hat.

If that turns out not to be the case and he's still snaky cos I didn't worship him, then he's not worth the faith in the first place.

I'd prefer to put my faith in people, because most of them deserve it. :)
Remember when you were a kid and the world held magic the grown ups never knew.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:07PM
kyupol at 6:18AM, Aug. 14, 2008
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If that's true then, speaking as a self-avowed atheist, I want my pay-cheque! Where is it?! I've been an atheist for years and never received a damn penny!

Its not about the rank and file but the people at the top. What is the agenda for trying to discredit spirituality? Who is to benefit from that? It costs money to disseminate information.

Conspiracy Theorist - Has an agenda that vast & secret forces are responsible for everything - I get the impression they want everyone to feel as worthless and helpless as they feel, perhaps to cover up their own failures? Or perhaps they are all on the payroll of vast evil conspiracies - because who else would benefit from us all feeling so helpless? Therefore, they are all traitors to the species.

True to a certain degree. But in this field of conspiracy research there's alot of disinfo.

Payroll? I don't think so. They arent funded by the rockefellers and the rothschilds. That is why they get funding from the average people or from their own pocket. It costs money to operate a website, to advertise, to disseminate info. They wont be around if not for people's desire to find the truth. You seriously think people like Alex Jones are swimming in ca$h? How could that be if he puts out his movies for free?

Helpless? I don't think so. For example, David Icke and others have this idea that we are all “infinite consciousness” and far more capable of greater things than what mainstream religion and atheism give us credit for.

That's alright, I get the impression that folks who believe in the paranormal are just unable to think critically or too lazy to find real answers.

The word “paranormal” isn't really accurate. According to the dictionary, the word paranormal means something that is “Beyond the range of normal experience or scientific explanation”. Do you think our modern day science is perfect? No. It still has alot to learn. Do you think the state of the human body today is at its peak of evolution? No. We have still alot to evolve. Physically and spiritually.

As sciences and spirituality advance, what is paranormal would become normal phenomenon with a scientific explanation.

Unable to think critically?

True to an extent. But isn't the act of finding explanations outside the boundaries of science and mainstream media… by itself an act of critical thinking?

As I said earlier I am skeptical of everything.

NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:26PM
bravo1102 at 7:00AM, Aug. 14, 2008
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Someone
The word “paranormal” isn't really accurate. According to the dictionary, the word paranormal means something that is “Beyond the range of normal experience or scientific explanation”. Do you think our modern day science is perfect? No. It still has alot to learn. Do you think the state of the human body today is at its peak of evolution? No. We have still alot to evolve. Physically and spiritually.

There is one important word missing from the definition: "Beyond the range of [ current ] … scientific explanation.

The search continues. And I agree about the definition of “athiest” being insulting. It totally ignores the experiences and work of Carl Sagan, Arthur C. Clarke, Paul Kurtz, Johnny Carson, Steve Allen, Robert Green Ingersoll, Michael Shermer among others. All of whom were atheists (by the modern definition Ingersoll was an atheist), all of whom had a keen appreciation of the human spirit not some ephemeral face in the clouds or nebulous conspiracy in darkened rooms.

Skepticism means needing proof to accept validity and using Occam's razor. Not considering complicated and far-fetched explanations for simple things. Extraordinary theories require extraordinary proof not strung together, unrelated and poorly considered thoughts and interpretations that mostly arise from ignorance.

I suggest kyupol you stop reading the people you read and study the other side, the names named above. You just might learn something. I used to be in your place and then I discovered Sagan et.al and my universe changed. The sense of wonder was still there as the waves of the Cosmic Ocean lapped at my toes, but it was a wonder of a universe just yearning to be known, not belief or superstition, but knowledge, insight and wisdom all leavened with a healthy dose of skepticism.

It also helps to read Lao Tzu. :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:33AM
Ronson at 5:33PM, Aug. 14, 2008
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kyupol
That's alright, I get the impression that folks who believe in the paranormal are just unable to think critically or too lazy to find real answers.

The word “paranormal” isn't really accurate. According to the dictionary, the word paranormal means something that is “Beyond the range of normal experience or scientific explanation”. Do you think our modern day science is perfect? No. It still has alot to learn. Do you think the state of the human body today is at its peak of evolution? No. We have still alot to evolve. Physically and spiritually.

As sciences and spirituality advance, what is paranormal would become normal phenomenon with a scientific explanation.

That's not how I'm reading the definition you wrote. Beyond the range of scientific explanation means beyond the reach ever. As mentioned above, it doesn't say “current” scientific explanation.

Paranormal theories are just imaginative explanations created to short cut scientific study. They are always unprovable - which gives them credibility if you don't view them rationally.

Unable to think critically?

True to an extent. But isn't the act of finding explanations outside the boundaries of science and mainstream media… by itself an act of critical thinking?

No. It isn't by any definition of critical thinking.

Critical thinking is the cornerstone of science. It may not always be applied properly, but over time, the critical arguments in science strengthen the scientific theory and lead to scientific experiments which lead to scientific applications that affect our lives.

Critical thinking isn't just examining the law of gravity and saying “I think invisible demons are really just pulling us down all the time” You have to examine your theory, find tests to prove or disprove it and have evidence that can be evaluated by others to prove your theory.

As I said earlier I am skeptical of everything.

No offense, but I think you're actually cynical of everything. Skepticism is not believing everything you're told. Cynicism is believing everything you're told is not just false but also hides evil intent.

Atheism has been around for as long as religion has. It isn't part of any system to destroy society or individuality. It's been used well, and it's been used horribly.

Your false interpretation of atheism leads you to believe that there is yet again a cabal of people trying to thwart your preferred way of life. That isn't skeptical, that's cynical.

Cynicism is what leads to a loss of hope, because you never find anything satisfying in life. It's a destructive mind set and can lead to a lot of needless suffering. I try to avoid cynicism, but find it very alluring sometimes. That's when I listen to Bim Skala Bim for a day or so. :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:10PM
Faliat at 8:57PM, Aug. 14, 2008
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I'm personally agnostic, but I follow the I Rather You Didn'ts of Pastafarianism.

When I was little I wasn't baptised in any religion so I was given free choice regarding it. As both my parents had famillial problems regarding their Christian sects and didn't want me being forced into a religion I didn't even want to be in.

Despite that, I was raised in Catholic schools. Once you're in them it's really hard to get out of the habit. Because Scotland is viciously sectarianist.

Being surrounded by bleeding heart Jesus pictures and motivational posters while you're getting your head smacked in with heavy textbooks is a fast track to insanityville.

Call that jumped up metal rod a knife?
Watch mine go straight through a kevlar table, and if it dunt do the same to a certain gaixan's skull in my immediate vicinity after, I GET A F*****G REFUND! BUKKO, AH?!

- Rekkiy (NerveWire)
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:25PM
StaceyMontgomery at 9:48PM, Aug. 14, 2008
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Kyupol asks:

“But isn't the act of finding explanations outside the boundaries of science and mainstream media… by itself an act of critical thinking?”

Ronson has already addressed this very well - but I wanted to add a point. There IS a value to finding new answers that go beyond the limits of traditional answers and the current consensus. It's probably not “critical thinking” but it's awfully valuable. The problem is that “finding new answers” is not the same as “making up kewl shit.” One is hard work, the other is just staring into space and saying “hay, maybe British Royalty are like totally lizards!”

It is entirely the difference between doing hard work and sitting around wishing you had the rewards for doing hard work.

last edited on July 14, 2011 3:55PM
DAJB at 11:08PM, Aug. 14, 2008
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StaceyMontgomery
the other is just staring into space and saying “hay, maybe British Royalty are like totally lizards!”
And besides, I'm sure that's been proven to be a lie. At least half of them are part-chicken!
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:03PM
cartoonprofessor at 2:38AM, Aug. 15, 2008
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I think people tend to ‘find’ a religious dogma that suits them because by doing so it gives them an ‘identity’. The ego needs to identify with things… it's why humans are such slaves to the marketers after all.

I am a Christian, or I am a Muslim, or Hindu, or Buddhist, whatever, gives the individual a sense of identity. The problem is that this only supports the illusion by creating duality.

When humans finally learn to accept they are merely a part of the whole and not seperate themselves with ‘I’ or ‘my’, they will finally learn true brotherly (sic) love and wars and conflict will cease.

God (whatever you percieve him or her to be) gave us intellect. He or She also provided us with our surrounding world (nature) to learn from by observing it with that intellect. By learning to observe this world and including our Selves in that observation, we learn to understand the ego… that sense of duality and ‘I ness’ that causes so much unhappiness.

(For example, you may desire a bigger home or greater wealth, believing this will make you more ‘complete’ and thus grant you a more acceptable identity… but then when you achieve these desires, they don't fullfill you and so you desire more material ‘possessions’. You can never ‘own’ anything. Every single one of your ‘possessions’ are no longer yours when you pass on from this world. You never did ‘own’ them, merely looked after them for a while.)

Throughout history people have come to understand the illusion of this duality. Some have spoken of their understanding in an attempt to help their brothers and sisters, Mohammed, Jesus, Sodhivistra, and many more. Sadly, after their deaths other people have taken these teachings, misrepresented them and used them to achieve power over their fellows… this is where all modern ‘religions’ have come from… The desire of the ego to be identified.

We (and all around us) are miraculously present here and now because of one thing, the Sun. We all came from that source, which in turn came from the one source that created the entire universe. We are all like waves on the ocean, appearing as individuals from one perspective yet obviously only part of the greater whole.

(Phew… got that off my chest, now I'm gonna go and feed this body I am using with some ice-cream and feed this mind with a DVD)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:36AM

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