Debate and Discussion

The Broad line between 'implied' and 'graphic' sex.
Fly Hue at 6:31PM, Jan. 20, 2009
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I've had to deal with this problem from the beginning. The Mature V. Adult category, that is. My most active story on Druck Duck (being nearly 250 pages now) has a fair amount of sexual scenes, all quite necessary to the plot. For example, pretty early on in the story my main character is raped, thus leading into a whole landslide of fun new problems. I don't want to just blank out that scene and say, “Well, you get the picture.” No, I want my readers to witness this devastating and humiliating event, as well as how his attitude towards sexual acts change and develop with time.

Now, I've read my fair share of Mature and Adult comics on this site by now, so I'm pretty aware that the sexual scenes in the story are NOT pornographic. There is no full frontal nudity, no close-ups of members entering orifices, and it's definitely not non-stop. On the other hand, a few Mature comics that I have read have had some pretty secure sex scenes of similar nature to my own story. BUT I'd wager that they're still not quite as bad as my own.

In short, I really dislike having my story under an Adult rating. The description itself only mentions Pornography, Excessive Violence, or Excessive Obscenities –None of which my story contains. The Mature rating mentions that there will be no graphic sex -which I feel my story does not contain- but also that it may only have “implied sex”, which is where I get stuck.

Could the lovely Members of Drunk Duck help me figure this out, and tell me what “implied sex” really means, and if the general nature of the comic I just described can be considered Mature content or if it should remain in the Adult section.

Factors to Consider:
-Not Pornographic, or really graphic in the first place. Sexual acts are clearly occurring, but there is not excessive detail.
-There is no frontal nudity, however certain parts can be seen from angles on certain panels.
-Sexual acts are not on-going, but are continuously part of the storyline.

Thank You Very Much.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:30PM
ozoneocean at 6:44PM, Jan. 20, 2009
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As to the nature of your specific comic, this isn't a subject for the debate and discussion forum. You'd be a lot better off just PQing an admin directly ;)

But here's an answer anyway: From your description you comic sounds like it belongs in the “Mature” category. Especially since the subject you're referring to is not there for the sake of titillation but to educate and enlighten the audience. In such a case you could even argue for a Teen rating in my opinion, and there was an implied provision in the original rating scheme for that here, as proposed by Platinum. I know because I examined it very, very carefully.
But I would go “Mature” to be safe.

I can't say for sure right now since I'm at work in the office and can't really look at that sort of work. :)
—————————————————

Ok. If you want to take this discussion away from your comic and the rating scheme here in general (which is NOT up for debate), and instead discuss the title of this thread ( The Broad line between ‘implied’ and ‘graphic’ sex" ), Go ahead.
If not, case closed. ^_^
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:33PM
kyupol at 7:04PM, Jan. 20, 2009
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Here's how I understand it.



Implied sex
- just show the closed door with noises happening. Just the sfx and the dialog.
Example:
http://www.drunkduck.com/BK_Shadow_Nemesis/index.php?p=92687
http://www.drunkduck.com/MAG_ISA/index.php?p=290686

Graphic sex
- if they are doing it for pages and pages upon end. It doesn't leave anything up to the imagination. You see it right there. In your face.
NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:26PM
Fly Hue at 7:47PM, Jan. 20, 2009
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Ozone: Oh yes, I definitely intended for this to be more of an open discussion of what fits in Adult and what fits in Mature. I just posted my dilemma in order to be up front about my motive for starting such a discussion. Thank you for the advice though, the way you worded everything brought things into a neat perspective. It also is very relieving to see an Admin posting such feedback, however I'm going to hold back on changing my rating for a few days in case any other posts appear taking up the other side of the argument.
Once again, thank you very much for the advice (including the for future reference, just PQ an Admin part. ^^;;)

Kyupol: That's exactly what I was thinking. What are the wee people going to do if they don't feel their stories are either of these things? I'd like to figure out what the Drunk Duck community believes is the true definitive point between Mature Rated Sex and Adult Rated Sex.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:30PM
kyupol at 9:01PM, Jan. 20, 2009
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Mature Rated Sex and Adult Rated Sex

I understand that M rated sex is just conventional sex and maybe mild fetishes. You have none of the bestiality, tentacle rape, gang rape, cannibalism, necrophilia, and the hardcore BDSM.

I think though that M rated can include mild BDSM and any other thing that doesnt involve getting naked. I saw stuff in youtube that shows pretty girls seductively licking a banana or ice cream or gummy bears (mild vore). As well as girls wearing bathing suits while wrestling guys who purposely lose just for the chance to get their face in between their thighs (mild BDSM).

It depends though on how much percent of a comic is dedicated to hardcore sexual and violent acts. My comic is M rated and I've got these pages:
http://www.drunkduck.com/MAG_ISA/index.php?p=375469
http://comics.drunkduck.com/comics/M/MAG_ISA/gfx/MAGISA_Ch4_Page_7.jpg
http://www.drunkduck.com/BK_Shadow_Nemesis/index.php?p=93197
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v725/kyupol2/nsfw/bksn_ch1_page18.jpg

But if my entire comic or more than 50% of it is dedicated to hardcore sex (like tentacle rape and orgies and that kind of stuff) and violence (guts and blood spilling on every page. As well as guaranteed chain swearing on most pages), it would definitely be A rated.


NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:26PM
isukun at 8:30AM, Jan. 21, 2009
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The distinction between Adult and Mature should be fairly obvious on this site. What normally confuses people more is the distinction between Mature and Teen.

As for the line between implied and graphic sex, it's pretty clear cut. The better debate would be where the line lays between implied and explicit sex. Graphic requires a visual representation, implied would lack one. Explicit, however, only needs to clearly state the action, not visually represent it. It is possible for dialog to imply an action or be explicit and neither case needs to directly state what the action is. What makes the distinction more confusing, though, is that in a visual medium like comics or movies, a character can directly state they had sex, but because the action is not shown, it may still count as implied for rating purposes.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:04PM
Hyena H_ll at 4:51PM, Jan. 21, 2009
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I kind of worry about the line between “mature” and “adult”, but mostly for the obscenities clause.

My interpretation of “implied” sex: Author might show scenes directly before and after sex act, without showing the sex act itself; characters might appear under covers together for a couple panels; characters might state that they had sex; etc. Brief nudity- usually confined to butts or breasts, but absolutely no genitalia. This seems to be the standard for most “M” rated print books that I've read.

My interpretation of “explicit” sex would consist of multiple panels of full nudity; depict penetration, masturbation, or other close-ups of genitalia; depict sex acts that some viewers might find offensive; be presented in a “pornographic” sense- that is, graphic sex for the sake of itself, and not necessarily as a crucial part of a plot or story.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:52PM
BffSatan at 9:17PM, Jan. 21, 2009
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Pornography isn't based on content but intention, if your comic only shows nudity because of story and not to arouse anyone it isn't porn. I've read some comics that have penis in them and still stay at a mature rating. As long as the nudity isn't extremely graphic you can easily make it a mature comic provided the nudity is put in there for artistic reasons.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:20AM
Fly Hue at 4:27PM, Jan. 22, 2009
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Okay, so a few others seem to feel as stuck as I am. The two words definitely depict two extremes, so I feel like my story is still in the vague category of ‘not mature’ yet ‘not adult’. But I also feel more comfortable about changing to a Mature rating, which I've decided to do while countering with a firm banner of warning at the top.
Thank You all so much for the help and advice. The discussion is still open for anyone who wants to add their opinion, but in the mean time, I'm switching to M.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:30PM
bravo1102 at 3:28AM, Jan. 23, 2009
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Being in the US, I just asked myself what would the Motion Picture Association of America rate my comic if it were a movie.

Think about soft-core versus hard-core pornography. Implied penetration would be M, but graphically depicted penetration is A. You can have the tentacles going down there and poking under the panties in M, but you can't show the actual penetration and then have two pages of in-and-out.

And here I was thinking I could do tentacle rape as Teen+ ;)





last edited on July 14, 2011 11:33AM
ozoneocean at 4:05AM, Jan. 23, 2009
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bravo1102
Motion Picture Association of America
Ah-ah. In general (not for your comic alone), there is also consideration given to context in movies, not just what's actually in them.

As such, movies with the same sort of content could be rated differently depending on the context.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:33PM
Fly Hue at 4:18PM, Jan. 23, 2009
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That's an interesting way of looking at it. The comics to movies comparison makes the two rating ranks much easier to differentiate. At least for me. ^^;;
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:30PM
Hyena H_ll at 7:25AM, Jan. 24, 2009
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I think of the rating system comparison to movies, too. I guess M would be equivalent to R, and A would be “not rated” or “X”, or whatever it is they call it these days? But the American ratings for films seem to have much less tolerance for sex than violence. There's a lot of sick, violent stuff that can pass as “R”; but you can't show an erect penis and still carry the “R” rating.

Question: (This is a bit off topic, so call me out if it ain't the place to ask) I haven't been a member here for very long, but I think all of the A-rated comics I've seen here are obviously rated so because of their sexual content. Anyone know of any “A” comics that get the rating for excessive violence/obscenities?
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:52PM
ozoneocean at 7:33AM, Jan. 24, 2009
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Hyena H_ll
but I think all of the A-rated comics I've seen here are obviously rated so because of their sexual content. Anyone know of any “A” comics that get the rating for excessive violence/obscenities?
Nope, I can't remember any… But they should be rated that was (A) if they have tons of gore and such. I'd rather see sex than that sort of thing any day, but that's a matter of personal taste. :)
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:33PM
Ironscarf at 5:13PM, Jan. 24, 2009
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Ozoneocean and
“Hyena H_ll” Said:
but I think all of the A-rated comics I've seen here are obviously rated so because of their sexual content. Anyone know of any “A” comics that get the rating for excessive violence/obscenities?
Nope, I can't remember any… But they should be rated that was (A) if they have tons of gore and such. I'd rather see sex than that sort of thing any day, but that's a matter of personal taste.

I've always found that to be something of an anathema. Even when I was a kid way back in the seventies I could pick up a copy of 2000AD (a kids comic at the time) which was full of extreme violence and depictions of gore, but any allusion to sex was pretty much barred.

Perhaps because comics have been seen as a childrens medium in the UK and USA (though not in europe), the uncomfortable notion of mostly middle aged men peddling sexual titilation to children has led publishers to mercilessly expunge any such references. They were probably happy on the other hand, to see the violence quota increased, as it boosted sales and didn't have the same dodgy connotations: if the media were up in arms, they could always rein in the bloodletting to some extent, without any taboos having been broken.

I blame Christianity: always happy to engage in a bit of torture and murder, but never sex!

 
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:02PM
Senshuu at 4:41AM, Jan. 25, 2009
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I always wondered about this topic, but I guess I'll find out when I get to it.

(As I myself and squeamish and have a real distaste for ‘hardcore’ stuff - THAT is gratuitous and unneeded for any plot advancement - I think I'll be pretty safe with one of my comics.)
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:27PM
ipokino at 6:29AM, Jan. 25, 2009
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Ironscarf
I've always found that to be something of an anathema. Even when I was a kid way back in the seventies I could pick up a copy of 2000AD (a kids comic at the time) which was full of extreme violence and depictions of gore, but any allusion to sex was pretty much barred.

Perhaps because comics have been seen as a childrens medium in the UK and USA (though not in europe), the uncomfortable notion of mostly middle aged men peddling sexual titilation to children has led publishers to mercilessly expunge any such references. They were probably happy on the other hand, to see the violence quota increased, as it boosted sales and didn't have the same dodgy connotations: if the media were up in arms, they could always rein in the bloodletting to some extent, without any taboos having been broken.

I totally agree. Which is why my signature banner at the bottom of this shows a gun in the hands of the spacesuit girl–who also sports a bolero top as opposed to the skin tight spacesuit top she originally came with! The first was deemed to be ‘Not Workplace Safe’ (though it heads the top of my website which is always open at MY job) but the second is. Violence implied is soooo much better than breasts…implied!!!
The fact is, this whole topic tends to get my blood boiling…because, as is obvious here, no one actually has a universally accepted grasp of where the line should be drawn! There is a lot of yeah this and no, maybe not that…but in fact it is all subjective. Most of the comics on DD are XXX rated…if you live in Iran, or most fundamentally religious countries. The very idea that women can interact with men in a free environment is an anathema–whether you are fundamental Jew, Muslim, or even some Mormon sects. The idea that men and women can be homosexual is an ‘pornographic’ anathema to a host of other faiths–and the entire country of China (Oddly, no one had a lot to say there about Mao's little fixation with very…very young girls.)
Worse…in my belief…to actually voice a countervailing opinion on some aspects of this issue (ie…the whole kiddie porn thing) is to find yourself labeled with a “Scarlet Letter” as if you are somehow connected to the perceived issue! Grrr…. I had a psychologist actually tell me I was ‘guilty’ of child sexual abuse (on some imaginary level she conjured up in her head) because I refused to censor my daughter's internet activities and ‘protect her’ from bad sexual influences… Gahhh.

Normally I just keep to myself on this topic…but I find rating my comic to be a serious issue and one I stumble over often. I find that KNOWING my comic is labeled as completely pornographic in a large number of places in the world is sort of liberating, I mean who died and made the United States' idea of what is right and wrong the default setting!!! Since I cannot fit into the least common denominator–why bother with any!!!


Ironscarf
I blame Christianity: always happy to engage in a bit of torture and murder, but never sex!

I think this pretty much sums it up–but I'd add–all the “Jehovah/Allah based” religions…as the main offenders in this seem to all derive from the same religious root!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:02PM
the2ndredbaron at 10:27AM, Jan. 25, 2009
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Ironscarf
I blame Christianity: always happy to engage in a bit of torture and murder, but never sex!


ever read songs of Solomon?
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:16PM
Ironscarf at 2:55PM, Jan. 25, 2009
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the2ndredbaron
ever read songs of Solomon?

I sure have - at least er… many times!

That comes from before Christianity though: I don't remember my Church of England linked junior school making much reference to the fact that "Thy two breasts are like two young roses that are twins, which feed among the lilies", or hearing much mention of it since then!
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:02PM
isukun at 6:08PM, Jan. 25, 2009
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It is possible people may have non-religious reasons for being more concerned with sexual media than violent media. While both types of activity are frowned upon by society, social structures in countries like the US tend to be more lenient when it comes to sexually active kids than it is towards violent kids. So there are structures in place that help to curb the violence, but not so many that actually help prevent kids from becoming sexually active too early or under misguided ideals. This burden is usually placed entirely upon the parents. There is no legal punishment for kids having sex nor much of a social stigma (if anything, kids brag about it), but with the way our society is structured, it isn't really a good thing for kids to be that intimate. Glorifying that kind of activity in comics, TV, movies, music, etc. actively works against parents' efforts to stop it.

Kids are well aware that killing another person will land you in jail and leave you guilt-ridde for the rest of your days, but for many, sex is a crime on par with staying out past curfew. It is wrong, but doesn't have the stigma of being a life-altering event, even though in actuality, it often is.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:04PM
spaz at 9:54PM, Jan. 25, 2009
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bravo1102
Being in the US, I just asked myself what would the Motion Picture Association of America rate my comic if it were a movie.


I gotta say this how I think when I differentiate between graphic, explicit and implied sex.
To me it would break down as such

Implied= the lovers embrace, cut to the windows, its raining and storming ( representation of a storm of passion) cut back and the man is in his clothes with his collar upturned and hair a mess.
Very much like 1940's American Cinema.

explicitTwo lovers embrace, we see some clothes fly, a shoulder or two, the two lovers off camera breaths begin to climax, fade to black. Cut in later to the two eating breakfast. We never really see any nudity or sexual actions.

GraphicWe see the sex, its not being dragged on as the comics focus or main goal as Ozone put it focused on for reader titillation. Its graphic meaning it is graphically/ visually depicted.

And then, above and beyond, we have the pornographic which is in its own league. If you don't know when something is pornographic I'll leave it up to time and the internet to educate you in those matters.
When a pit bull romances your leg, fake an orgasim.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:53PM
Hyena H_ll at 6:20AM, Jan. 26, 2009
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spaz
If you don't know when something is pornographic…

Slippery slope!
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:52PM
kyupol at 5:21PM, Jan. 26, 2009
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I blame Christianity: always happy to engage in a bit of torture and murder, but never sex!

Yeah yeah. Blame the Christians for everything.

NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:26PM
bravo1102 at 6:02AM, Jan. 27, 2009
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There is always the context of the sex to be considered. A brutal rape scene where the purpose to disgust and terrify the audience is different from one that is thrown in because the creator(s) can. Just the same as truly gratuitous gore always goes for an R even if it is as entirely unrealistic as the little trickle of blood you see in PG movies.

I love putting in violence and nudity just because I can (see that Robofemoid thing linked below) It's good fun and agian it's the context. Robofemoids is a satire and the nudity and violence is acknowledged as gratuitious on purpose. That is different from a graphic sex scene just thrown in there with no rhyme or reason and left hanging and taht usually reduces me to fits of laughter because it has no context. That's the NC-17 and R. However, as the work of Kevin Smith has shown there are some areas where the context doesn't matter anymore in judging the content.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:33AM
Aurora Borealis at 7:30PM, Jan. 27, 2009
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This topic interests me greatly. In some of my unfinished scripts sex pays an important role. For example in one of these I have an orgy… and not for the sake of having an orgy, but to show that the main character controls another group of characters through sex and drugs. Thus I'm thinking something like a white silhouette of the main character (who's female) in a sea of black hands and feet, covering most of her shape (and all the private bits) while the background of the scene is some psychedelic b&w mandala or something (to imply the drugs). This would be accompanied by a text piece and wouldn't last longer than a page or three.
And I think it crosses the boundary of implied but doesn't really fall into the graphic territory due to being fairly symbolic.

…what I'm really worried though is whether for example ka-blam would be okay with that or not (seeing as I'll be using POD services for my work).
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:08AM
harkovast at 4:01AM, Aug. 15, 2009
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My understanding-

Implied sex= Disapointing, frustrating, losing interest.

Graphic sex= AWESOME!!!!!

For more Harkovast related goings on, go to the Harkovast Forum
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:43PM
Sea_Cow at 1:18PM, Aug. 15, 2009
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Well, she got raped “onscreen”. That justifies an M, but not an A unless it's done exploitation-style.
I am so happy to finally be back home
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:27PM
Mr Lostman at 9:53PM, Aug. 15, 2009
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kyupol
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v725/kyupol2/nsfw/bksn_ch1_page18.jpg
Did you just put some sort of smiley in your character's speech bubble?
Blood Martian Flowers. Occasionally updates.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:07PM
AshleeS at 10:16PM, Aug. 16, 2009
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@Lostman: I've done that before, but my character wasn't visible in the panel. ^^;

My comic has some ‘suggestive’ panels… There are definitely certain sillouette scenes every so often, maybe a boob or two? <


last edited on July 14, 2011 11:02AM

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