Debate and Discussion

The current revolutions in the middle east
ozoneocean at 9:58AM, March 4, 2011
(online)
posts: 24,789
joined: 1-2-2006
What do you think of these?
Strife in Tunisia, Egypt, Libya, Bahrain and I'm not sure where else.

It seems that popular feeling has finally reached boiling point in those countries. After the failed protests in Iran, people tried in Egypt and succeeded, and that flowed over to Tunisia and beyond as word spread.

It's worth noting that the governments in many of those those countries came to power after popular revolutions that toppled monarchies that were propped up by foreign countries. Most of the current governments were all mainly controlled by the military, but had been comparatively peaceful and stable for a long time.- In the past there was a LOT more trouble in the Middle East than there is now.

Anyway, the situation in most of the countries seems legit; real popular movements, not influenced or orchestrated by Israel, the US, Europe, Hesbolah, the Muslim Brotherhood, or Iran.
Except for Libya…

Gaddafi is the only leader that the west hates (the west pretty much loves the other toppled leaders) and there's distinct problems with what's happening there.
At first I was as shocked as everyone else with the stories of “Libyan forces killing 2000 civilians”, and “ordering air-strikes on civilians”, but things are starting not to add up: There are organised rebel forces well armed with heavy weapons and it seems that the air strikes are actually happening against them.


Now I am ALL up for ordering sanctions against an insane leader who's attacking defenceless civilians involved in peaceful protests, but when there are actual well armed and organised rebel forces all bets are OFF. The rest of the world shouldn't take sides in internal conflict.
And who is supplying all those weapons? (anti tank, anti air, heavy machine guns etc)
Is it just troops who've defected, or are they coming from Iran or US friendly Arab states?

The situation in Libya is quite different to that of the other countries now and talk of any sort of intervention strikes me as being pretty suspicious given how the west has always regarded Gaddafi. Plus, the strategy of trying to stir up rebellions though marginalised political rebel groups has been a tactic of many countries for many years, (the US, Russia, Britain and Israel were big players in that in the middle East during the cold war), so it is a strategy that have definitely and openly used before. -it's on record and the US still openly tries in Cuba.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:37PM
imshard at 11:21AM, March 4, 2011
(online)
posts: 2,961
joined: 7-26-2007
BBC'c got ya covered: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-12482311
It actually all started in Tunisia and when Ben Ali left office the snowball got going everywhere else. Egypt just got the more attention for some reason, probably since its a major regional player and had a much larger revolt than the others.

As far as Libya goes, watch Al Jazeera for the best coverage (they have a free English web-cast now). I have no reason to believe the uprising there has a different cause than in its neighbors. The people are not well organized or well armed. They are simply fed up with their ruler, and inspired by the promise of democracy. Most of their weaponry is either improvised or stolen from Ghadafi's forces and supplies. Estimates vary but a significant portion of the military has defected to help the opposition. So far the protesters have not managed to acquire their own air force and mount their own aerial strikes. In fact the few interim councils emerging are supporting international air strikes against Ghadafi but do not want foreign troops on their soil.

-After seeing footage of Ghadafi's soldiers unloading anti-aircraft rounds cannon into a crowd of protesters and pelting funeral processions with mortars, I'm of the opinion he should be taken to the Hague on charges of genocide and war crimes. Though I doubt he'll get the chance if/when the opposition forces get their hands on him. I'm guessing he'll get the Mussolini deluxe treatment.
Don't be a stick in the mud traditionalist! Support global warming!

Tech Support: The Comic!! Updates Somedays!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:59PM
ozoneocean at 11:52AM, March 4, 2011
(online)
posts: 24,789
joined: 1-2-2006
imshard
Most of their weaponry is either improvised or stolen from Ghadafi's forces and supplies. Estimates vary but a significant portion of the military has defected to help the opposition. So far the protesters have not managed to acquire their own air force and mount their own aerial strikes. In fact the few interim councils emerging are supporting international air strikes against Ghadafi but do not want foreign troops on their soil.
They're no longer protesters.
This is the point- some of the press is still framing this is a protest issue, but when you have rival armed forces, the situation is radically different.
The press in other quarters are rightly describing them as rebel forces.
None of the weaponry I've seen or heard described is “improvised”. They have and are using heavy machine guns, anti tank weaponry and lord knows what else.

imshard
-After seeing footage of Ghadafi's soldiers unloading anti-aircraft rounds cannon into a crowd of protesters and pelting funeral processions with mortars, I'm of the opinion he should be taken to the Hague on charges of genocide and war crimes. Though I doubt he'll get the chance if/when the opposition forces get their hands on him. I'm guessing he'll get the Mussolini deluxe treatment.
The Mussolini reference is surely intentionally ironic? Since he's largely responsible for much of their problems today in Libya.
I'd be very careful about the framing of incidents at this stage- Such attacks as you've mentioned are of course despicable and deplorable, bt we also know of the extreme bias in the west (mostly lead by the US and Britain) against the man, as well as him not being popular with most Arab states either.

The fact that there have been Interpol alerts against all his children, people calling him the new Hitler, Libyan assets seized world wide, calls for bombing raids against the country… Nothing even approaching that happened in the case of any of the other states (I mentioned) with similar movements, even when violence was freely employed against a largely non-violent populace (no rebel movements there).
Far worse violence was perpetrated against innocent Lebanese civilians by Israel when half the country was levelled over retaliation against a few ineffective rockets from an independent terrorist group and no one called for air strikes against them or the seizing of their assets. Even Iran got off scott free for what they did to their people during the protests. When you compare notes, the international reaction to Libya does look unbalanced.

Then again Neither Yemen, Tunisia, Egypt nor Bahrain have such significant and strategic value as an oil producing country either.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:37PM
imshard at 1:43PM, March 4, 2011
(online)
posts: 2,961
joined: 7-26-2007
ozoneocean
When you compare notes, the international reaction to Libya does look unbalanced.

Of course the vultures are circling because Libya looks weak and the Western governments are trying to recoup their images after failing to act against their longtime regional partners. They can't turn on their allies outright or they'll loose all their diplomatic credibility. As for ignoring the crackdowns of others? Nobody has been invaded, and the Libyan situation is FAR more escalated.

I agree Libya has sprouted into a full blown rebellion, but Ozone you have got to be the first person I've heard of besides Ghadaffi trying to say this looks staged. Even Ghadafi isn't blaming his western enemies. HE blames Al-Qaeda of all people.

The whole thing started when he jailed a public figure that spoke against him. As for the heavy weapons, the rebels have overrun half the country at this point. There are videos of them raiding captured bases and entire army divisions defecting. Before that, the first engagements were fought with bulldozers, rocks, and Molotovs, as peaceful protests turned violent and escalated. Do some more research instead of trying to fit the situation through your anti-establishment filter.

ozoneocean
Then again Neither Yemen, Tunisia, Egypt nor Bahrain have such significant and strategic value as an oil producing country either.

Don't give me that.
Bahrain hosts an entire US fleet. Egypt has been holding the peace with Israel for decades. Saudi Arabia has a crap-ton of oil AND hosts international forces.
Iran is already under sanctions and international pressure for years. None of them has called in thousands of mercenaries to back their regimes and lost control of their nations.

Many have died in the 13 countries caught up in the wave of protests. The reason Libya is facing international intervention is not only its strategic and economic impact but the fact its death toll is being measured in the thousands not the dozens.
Don't be a stick in the mud traditionalist! Support global warming!

Tech Support: The Comic!! Updates Somedays!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:59PM
kyupol at 2:33PM, March 4, 2011
(online)
posts: 3,712
joined: 1-12-2006
Its because the people want liberty and have had it with tyrants. There is a legitimate beef on that level. But then again, the people's anger can be manipulated in such a way that the new boss would be the same as the old boss or even worse.

Theres lots of conflicting data happening. Some people say its legit. And humanity is about to experience a new age of liberty. Some people say all these revolutions are CIA black-ops staged. I dont know what to say. I'm leaning towards “it is legit”. Maybe thats wishful thinking on my part. I just wanna live in a world where freedom and liberty reigns supreme.

Not just in the middle east but in America as well (see the rise of Ron Paul and others like him, Wisconsin protests, etc.)

WW3 is the people vs the elite. Not country against country. Because afterall, wars are started by the psychopathic elite who cannot seem to be contented even if they already live in large palaces and can buy anything they want. As the average person just wants to live their lives peacefully.

Just my 2 cents.

NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:27PM
Faliat at 4:21PM, March 4, 2011
(online)
posts: 582
joined: 10-17-2006
I gotta say I'm loving the delicious irony of David Cameron going over there and singing praises for democracy when he didn't even win the election.

Also, people that say Tunisia started all this have really short memories.

Iran kicked everything off in ‘09 and ’10 with its predidential election protests. Sure, they didn't work but it sure influenced a lot of people to do what they're doing now in these other countries.

Call that jumped up metal rod a knife?
Watch mine go straight through a kevlar table, and if it dunt do the same to a certain gaixan's skull in my immediate vicinity after, I GET A F*****G REFUND! BUKKO, AH?!

- Rekkiy (NerveWire)
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:25PM
sama at 7:44AM, March 6, 2011
(online)
posts: 46
joined: 12-25-2010
kyupol
WW3 is the people vs the elite. Not country against country.


I agree with this point. From the perspective that with the internet, Wikileaks, etc, power has become decentralised in the world. We live in a new world order where where traditional government and media are no longer able to control information like it used to. Instead it's like a shouting match around the globe by different mobs of people. Is this better? Probably, but it comes at it's own price.

In the situation with Libya, it looks legit. But it depends on what comes now. Is the country going to release power to the mobs of people, or are we just going to see one centralised government (like a fundamentalist Muslim party) take over- if that happens it's going to be just more of the same or worse.


Live life as the new Death
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:19PM
ozoneocean at 8:12AM, March 6, 2011
(online)
posts: 24,789
joined: 1-2-2006
imshard
I agree Libya has sprouted into a full blown rebellion, but Ozone you have got to be the first person I've heard of besides Ghadaffi trying to say this looks staged. Even Ghadafi isn't blaming his western enemies. HE blames Al-Qaeda of all people.
I don't say it looks staged, I say that given what has happened in the past it is impossible to dismiss the possibility.

We have no solid stats on death tolls at all in Libya, just people telling us numbers. All that we know for sure is that some people have died, not how many. What really does worry me is that unlike almost any other conflict, none of the information from the anti Ghadaffi side is being questioned, whereas everything from the Ghadaffi side IS.

I don't doubt for a moment that he is a corrupt, unpopular leader who is currently freely employing brutally violent tactics, but I can spot exaggeration, demonstration and unbalanced reporting when when I see it.

There is civil war in the country currently and yet every move the government takes against the rebel forces is treated by the press a crime against humanity, while rebel actions pass without comment. That is very strange.
Israel got less criticism for using phosphorus bombs in air-strikes on Palestinian areas.

———-
As to conspiracy- All that I'm getting from the current situation is that all the ministers, diplomats and soldiers that have joined the opposition seemed to choose their moment very well.
I'd say that it wasn't any actions of the government (right now) that caused them to switch, but the fact that most of them had probaby been planning something for some time and chose this moment of unrest and weakness to go through with it. Whether that was done with the encouragement of foreign intelligence services I absolutely could not say, but I wouldn't rule out the possibility- it's been done many times in the past, and that's the sort of indirect intervention currently favoured by most services.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:37PM
Genejoke at 12:14PM, March 6, 2011
(online)
posts: 3,031
joined: 4-9-2010
Faliat
I gotta say I'm loving the delicious irony of David Cameron going over there and singing praises for democracy when he didn't even win the election.

Then who did win the election? Don't want to derail the topic but the tories did get the majority of votes. If labour had stayed in power and the labour leader did the same as the greased up rent boy did, THAT would be ironic.

As for the situation in Libya, meh. So much media bullshit.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:34PM
mlai at 8:17PM, March 6, 2011
(online)
posts: 3,035
joined: 12-28-2006
Basically, when despots supported by US lobby interests gets thrown out by the will of the people, the US fiddles its hands and urges mutual restraint.

When despots who don't play ball with US lobby interests gets contested by his people, the US starts throwing out blatant propaganda.

Though in this case, Qaddafi has been playing ball. Well, Qaddafi's got oil, so making up was easy.

US has even liked him enough to sell him large amounts of anti-rioting gear. It's like the wolf calling out the fox to the farmer.

FIGHT current chapter: Filling In The Gaps
FIGHT_2 current chapter: Light Years of Gold
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:07PM
bravo1102 at 12:14AM, March 8, 2011
(online)
posts: 3,224
joined: 1-21-2008
The Japanese like Qaddafi a lot because they sold him all those little trucks they're using for the “technicals” That's a heavy machine gun on an improvised mount in the pack of a pick-up. Very popular across the world and very improvised. The people go into an armory and steal the weapons. Rioters have been doing that forever, I mean how did they get those cannon to blow apart the Bastille in 1789? They raided an arsenal.
The French supplied the jets that are allegedly bombing the protesters. There is some small evidence that the bombings never actually occurred unlike the helicopter gunships. The helicopters are a mixture of European and Russian types so we can parcel out blame to them too.
Some Libyan police guy got one of those annoying Police Force catalogs and ordered away. There's ready access to such things across national lines it's amazing how police equipment looks so much alike these days. It's like those stupid BDU uniforms. They either buy the cloth wholesale and sew their own or some guy goes to a US Gov surplus sale and buys a lot (they're tied up in huge bundles like hay) Wouldn't be surprised if some Arab has a set of BDUs with my laundry mark in them.

I'm thankful that the problems in Egypt have subsided without a war unlike the last time in 1956. Been that long since violent disturbances in Egypt. I recall it was the French and British who intervened in that one and the USA urged restraint.
But Obama ain't Ike. But McCain is sounding a lot like LeMay these days.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:34AM
mlai at 1:43AM, March 8, 2011
(online)
posts: 3,035
joined: 12-28-2006
Are you trying to tell me that the USA did not sell any military/paramilitary goods to Libya? I'm shocked! What the hell are those lazy politicians doing? Not looking out for their generous military industry lobby interests?

Paranoid dictator + Wads of oil cash. OMFG if we don't sell to him, who the heck do we sell to?!

FIGHT current chapter: Filling In The Gaps
FIGHT_2 current chapter: Light Years of Gold
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:07PM
Faliat at 4:47PM, March 8, 2011
(online)
posts: 582
joined: 10-17-2006
Genejoke
Faliat
I gotta say I'm loving the delicious irony of David Cameron going over there and singing praises for democracy when he didn't even win the election.

Then who did win the election? Don't want to derail the topic but the tories did get the majority of votes.
Nobody won the election.

The tories got more in total but overall more people voted against a Tory government than for one.

Scotland has a minority government, too. More people voted against SNP than for them but they still got into power anyway based on their individual tally.

You need a clear majority for someone to truly “win” an election.

Y'know what we should be doing right now? Holding another one. There'd sure as hell be a majority now…

Call that jumped up metal rod a knife?
Watch mine go straight through a kevlar table, and if it dunt do the same to a certain gaixan's skull in my immediate vicinity after, I GET A F*****G REFUND! BUKKO, AH?!

- Rekkiy (NerveWire)
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:25PM
El Cid at 5:51PM, March 9, 2011
(online)
posts: 946
joined: 5-4-2009
Faliat
Y'know what we should be doing right now? Holding another one. There'd sure as hell be a majority now…
You should revolt. Hey, it's what all the cool kids are doing! What are you waiting for!
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:20PM
Genejoke at 12:05AM, March 10, 2011
(online)
posts: 3,031
joined: 4-9-2010
@Faliat then you should be bitching about the system not the one who use it to legitimately gain power. I don't disagree with the l;st part but that would just put labour in power again and that would be awful too. El cid is actually right there we should revolt.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:34PM
imshard at 10:57AM, March 10, 2011
(online)
posts: 2,961
joined: 7-26-2007
Meida bias aside, its starting to look like the Libyan rebellion is dying from lack of air support.

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/03/gadhafi-bombs-rebels-while-nato-planes-monitor/#more-42276


While many international groups like the UN, Islamic conference, African Union, and even NATO support and debate a no-fly zone it could swing the tide to the rebels favor again. Meanwhile the UN initiative appears to be held up by the vetoes of Russia and China. Countries who receive ~$4 billion dollars a year each from Ghadafi in trade and weapons deals.

Who knows how this will turn out but it needs to be decided soon lest Libya settle into a protracted war or worse Ghadafi gets to extract revenge on the rebels.

Should somebody step in? I'm really not sure. The rebels are calling for aid but I don't think anybody wants to repeat the United States mistakes and get embroiled in a foreign conflict.
Don't be a stick in the mud traditionalist! Support global warming!

Tech Support: The Comic!! Updates Somedays!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:59PM
Faliat at 4:10PM, March 10, 2011
(online)
posts: 582
joined: 10-17-2006
Genejoke
@Faliat then you should be bitching about the system not the one who use it to legitimately gain power. I don't disagree with the l;st part but that would just put labour in power again and that would be awful too. El cid is actually right there we should revolt.
Firstly, those that wanted the system to change voted Lib Dem. Look where that's got us.
And even though the Labour Government wasn't all sunshine and roses… err… kinda… It overall did more for the country than the current lot could ever hope to do. Yet the current government keeps mentioning “inheriting” things from the last lot that they didn't inherit. They've been in a power a year now and they've still failing in one of the least epic ways possible.
You can say whatever about ye olde milk snatcher but at least she knew what she was doing.

Lastly, we did revolt.
It was just a really crap one compared to the awesomeness of France. Our protests were too organised and tame. Any deviation from that was demonised by the media. The only time it wasn't was when the police dragged that guy with cerebral palsy out of his wheelchair and it got posted online.

Call that jumped up metal rod a knife?
Watch mine go straight through a kevlar table, and if it dunt do the same to a certain gaixan's skull in my immediate vicinity after, I GET A F*****G REFUND! BUKKO, AH?!

- Rekkiy (NerveWire)
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:25PM
mlai at 9:15PM, March 10, 2011
(online)
posts: 3,035
joined: 12-28-2006
The Libyans have no one to blame for lack of foreign support. They have no united front for any foreign country to rally behind. Some want foreign intervention, some don't, and no one is “in charge.” How can foreign countries back you when you don't even know who you are yourself?

"We're not Qaddafi." Well, that's just not good enough.

It's very likely that Qaddafi will successful squelch this rebellion, and realistically we can't even say whether that's a bad thing.

FIGHT current chapter: Filling In The Gaps
FIGHT_2 current chapter: Light Years of Gold
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:07PM
ErosApollo at 7:37AM, March 17, 2011
(offline)
posts: 6
joined: 3-8-2011
Democracy is overrated. what you are going to get over there is civil chaos, and order will only be restored by a new dictatorship. All the democracies are destined to collapse, because people being people will always vote to give themselves freebies until the public treasure is bankrupt

Remember democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting what is for dinner
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:22PM
El Cid at 9:19AM, March 17, 2011
(online)
posts: 946
joined: 5-4-2009
Democracy is overrated… as opposed to what alternative? There is nothing easier in life than to point out that some human institution is imperfect. What matters is whether that imperfect human institution can serve you better than a given alternative imperfect human institution. And there is no one-size-fits-all answer to that question.

Democracy is destined to fail only in the sense that every imperfect human endeavor is, at least theoretically, destined to fail at some point. Holding something up to a standard of perfection and perpetual viability is unreasonable. But democracy can function as a going concern for the foreseeable future, so long as certain criteria are met. Perhaps first and foremost among these criteria is that the population must have some genuine vested interest in the long-term health and survival of the state, and the education to understand this and what all it entails. Whether this is the case in Egypt or Bahrain, I'm not sure. Democracy may work there and it may not.

At this point, there's no reason to be either categorically euphoric or categorically dire about the outlook in the Mideast. The revolutions may issue in a new era of prosperity, or something more like what Russia experienced after they overthrew the Czar. What, specifically, they do will have specific outcomes. I don't know that they've really done anything yet to show which direction they're headed.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:20PM
ozoneocean at 12:12PM, March 17, 2011
(online)
posts: 24,789
joined: 1-2-2006
This is starting to take a turn for the worse now
The US has changed its official stance and the Obama administration is pushing for a no-fly zone, airsrtikes on Libyan targets and directly against artillery and tanks, as well as diverting frozen Libyan assets to the rebels so they can buy weapons.

I'm sorry, but that is internationally politically irresponsible (interfering in another country's internal politics), as well as morally indefensible! -Basically encouraging war instead of making moves to try and end it through more diplomatic pressures and overtures to BOTH sides, mediation from stronger powers…
It's also extremely stupid since the US and the rest of the West is already paying for the useless efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan and cannot really afford to start paying for yet more military action.

I don't think Gaddafi is great, but he is not the cartoon monster he's made out to be. For the rest of the world, the Middle east and North Africa it really does NOT matter (in any realistic practical sense) if either he or the rebels win, and to the population of Libya what they would want most of all is peace and NOT war.

With Western involvement you can ensure things will simply extend, you'll have a broadening of the “terrorist” front (inevitable in any conflict in that region involving the US and allies), and yet another situation where the West is looked on as a big brutish interfering power.

We really need to grow the hell up and let countries take care of themselves without this old-fashioned childish paternalism. I expected a lot better from Obama.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:37PM
imshard at 4:13PM, March 17, 2011
(online)
posts: 2,961
joined: 7-26-2007
Naw, Obama is no more eager to jump into this one than the next guy. At first there was pressure to save face on the pro-democracy stance, but he avoided committing forces until the situation matured. He still hasn't put down anything definite. As it stands I think he's waiting for something more concrete from the EU so it doesn't look like another US initiative. The time for swift action has passed, the window of golden opportunity has closed. The west hesitated and for good reason. A few leaders talked big but ultimately nobody interfered. Now that Ghadaffi is regaining control it hinges on whether the EU or the UN will step in and help the NLC coalesce into a real government for Libya. If anybody is to blame for this mess it is them. Whether you want to point to the decades of oil revenues EU members fed Ghadaffi or farther back to the failure of the UN to create a stable government there after WW2 or back more to the Italian colonials, or farther still to the Ottomans, or back more to the Roman's. Ghadaffi refused to sell to the USA for 40 years, so we're not sad to see him go. You're right Oz, its not the USA's fight. It's Europe's (specifically Italy's) mess through and through. Enjoy the cleanup EU! This one has been brewing since the fall of Carthage!
Don't be a stick in the mud traditionalist! Support global warming!

Tech Support: The Comic!! Updates Somedays!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:59PM
mlai at 1:29AM, March 18, 2011
(online)
posts: 3,035
joined: 12-28-2006
Regarding Qaddafi… he's a mixed bag.

On 1 hand, yes he's a classic dictator. Even if his people doesn't starve, they themselves know they're living under a “regime.”

OTOH, after being a James Bond type villain for quite a few years, he honestly did turn over a new leaf. He announced to the international community that he repented, and then started cooperating dutifully with the West on issues such as radical Islamism. Correct me if I'm wrong but that's what the Western media has fed us for years.

And now as soon as his internal politics are giving him problems, the West throws him to the wolves. Even though he has been cooperating. Why? Hmm… Libya… sitting on oil reserves… coincidence?

FIGHT current chapter: Filling In The Gaps
FIGHT_2 current chapter: Light Years of Gold
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:07PM
imshard at 12:17PM, March 18, 2011
(online)
posts: 2,961
joined: 7-26-2007
The Libyan people turned out in massive numbers to protest and like their neighbors Tunisia and Egypt demand that the will of the people be respected and that their dictator should stand down. He turned guns on those people and caused it to escalate into an armed conflict. He should be tried for crimes against humanity, and his people should be able to oust him from power as they've chosen.

The NLC presented itself as an alternative and the rebels united under their banner and are now being hunted down because they dared to ask for somebody else to be their leader.

Of course the oil-hungry world is jumping at the chance to oust him. They have their own priorities. Nonetheless, he is quite clearly not “reformed” nor fit to lead. He made it apparent he doesn't deserve his throne anymore when he crossed the line and tried to suppress the will of his people with force.
Don't be a stick in the mud traditionalist! Support global warming!

Tech Support: The Comic!! Updates Somedays!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:59PM
ozoneocean at 12:44PM, March 18, 2011
(online)
posts: 24,789
joined: 1-2-2006
imshard
The Libyan people turned out in massive numbers to protest and like their neighbors Tunisia and Egypt demand that the will of the people be respected and that their dictator should stand down. He turned guns on those people and caused it to escalate into an armed conflict. He should be tried for crimes against humanity, and his people should be able to oust him from power as they've chosen.

The NLC presented itself as an alternative and the rebels united under their banner and are now being hunted down because they dared to ask for somebody else to be their leader.
This isn't actually what occurred, it's the narrative that most media outlets are framing the situation with. And it's really rather silly and completely one-sided.

It is NOT the world's business to help support revolutions and rebel forces within a country to enable a change of government. All this “trying people for crimes against humanity” is rubbish and has zero validity. We're not dealing with the Nazis here. We're not even dealing with George Bush Jnr and Tony Blair level of culpability for the wars and civilian death in Iraq and Afghanistan.

And this idea that a country's government taking military action against rebel forces is somehow wrong is beyond belief. That really is off into the realms of absolute fantasy.

Let's go by precedent shall we? Not long ago there were various popular people's movements all throughout Eastern Europe, spurred by the so-called “rose revolution” in Georgia country after country saw orange shirted protesters marching against their governments. When it came to Belarus all seemed fine… Then there was a terrible massacre and media blackout. WHERE was the UN then? Where was bloody self righteous NATO and their “protect the civilians” bullshit? What about all the “crimes against humanity”?

How about our old loveable favourite Burma, eh? Oh yes, good old Burma, the one we like to conveniently forget about when this sort of thing happens. Massive protest movement lead by Buddhist monks, unprecedented popular uprising, perfectly peaceful protest… and then the machine guns opened fire.
Allll forgotten now.

Oil is the only story here. No one could give two craps otherwise. Muammar Muhammad al-Gaddafi is just yet another leader of yet another country in the Middle East, same as all the rest. Same as 10's of leaders throughout South East Asia and Eastern Europe. Sure he's corrupt, venal, vain and brutal but no more than any other anywhere else and he's the Libyans problem to deal with.

——-
I apologise to you imshard if I seem overly confrontational in my reply here, I'm just tried of the hypocrisy and the united front of absolute media and political bias concerning this situation and I used my reply to you as a springboard for a general rant.
The lack of balance with these things and the constant amnesia for all similar events never ceases to shock me.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:37PM
El Cid at 12:51PM, March 18, 2011
(online)
posts: 946
joined: 5-4-2009
Aren't we talking about the same Qaddafi who blew up Pan Am Flight 103, and UTA Flight 772 after that? Why on Earth would anyone want to defend that creep? Hell yes, the daggers are coming out now that he's down; we've wanted to get rid of that guy since the 1980s!

And as for him being reformed, what a joke! To steal a line from Gary Becker, getting Qaddafi to agree not to pursue long-range missiles is something like getting the Mafia to agree not to pursue air strikes. That's never been the way he does things, and if he were serious about fighting terrorism, he should start by turning himself in. I don't see how anyone can take it seriously that he's “turned over a new leaf” if they're familiar with this guy's history. Qaddafi has a track record of backstabbing his allies, bullying his neighbors, and repressing his people. None of that has changed. He's still the same douchebag he always has been.

Sadly though, I'm pessimistic as to whether anyone is capable of ousting him, and the more practical half of my brain wonders whether whoever takes his place would be any better.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:20PM
El Cid at 12:58PM, March 18, 2011
(online)
posts: 946
joined: 5-4-2009
ozoneocean
Oil is the only story here. No one could give two craps otherwise. Muammar Muhammad al-Gaddafi is just yet another leader of yet another country in the Middle East, same as all the rest. Same as 10's of leaders throughout South East Asia and Eastern Europe. Sure he's corrupt, venal, vain and brutal but no more than any other anywhere else and he's the Libyans problem to deal with
What about oil? The oil belongs to Libya, and were Qaddafi to go, it would still belong to Libya, wouldn't it?
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:20PM
ozoneocean at 1:01PM, March 18, 2011
(online)
posts: 24,789
joined: 1-2-2006
El Cid
Aren't we talking about the same Qaddafi who blew up Pan Am Flight 103, and UTA Flight 772 after that?
No actually. These were alleged and not against him but against people who were supposed to have has Libyan backing.

I don't see this as a matter of “defending” any individual, I see this as a matter of principal- in getting rid of idiotic biases when dealing with situations of this gravity. Similarly, I did not support the hunt for Saddam Hussain and the rest of his cabinet. Neither would I support people going after Kim Il Jung if that ever came to pas. Acting against head's of state in this fashion truly makes a joke of everything the UN was ever supposed to stand for.

The rhetoric has more in common with the old days of monarchy and empire- “lets go after the disgusting dark-skinned savage king who has the impertinence to stand up to our civilised and might Christian empire and show him what good right thinking civilisation means!”
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:37PM
El Cid at 1:06PM, March 18, 2011
(online)
posts: 946
joined: 5-4-2009
ozoneocean
El Cid
Aren't we talking about the same Qaddafi who blew up Pan Am Flight 103, and UTA Flight 772 after that?
No actually. These were alleged and not against him but against people who were supposed to have has Libyan backing.
But the Libyan government did agree to pay compensation to the victims in both cases, did it not?

ozoneocean
The rhetoric has more in common with the old days of monarchy and empire- “lets go after the disgusting dark-skinned savage king who has the impertinence to stand up to our civilised and might Christian empire and show him what good right thinking civilisation means!”
I think it's better to be concerned with substance than with what something can be construed to sound like. It's in nobody's interest for Qaddafi to stay in power except for Qaddafi's, so I have no problem with forces internal or external helping him on his way.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:20PM
ozoneocean at 1:10PM, March 18, 2011
(online)
posts: 24,789
joined: 1-2-2006
El Cid
What about oil? The oil belongs to Libya, and were Qaddafi to go, it would still belong to Libya, wouldn't it?
You mean like Iraq's oil belongs to Iraq or East Timor's Gas fields belong to East Timor?
hohoho.

That's not how the world works I'm afraid. In the very best case scenario they end up still being able to charge real market prices for it, they just lose any say on who they get to sell it to and which companies get preferential treatment of mining rights and all the rest of it for an unspecified length of time with painful termination clauses built in that will basically bankrupt the country if they try and change anything.
In the worst case scenario a “deal” is structured so they get the “opportunity” to “buy” much needed infrastructure, weapons systems, and various supplies with their oil at a “fair price” decided by the US and European contractors and brokers.

In all cases the oil is no longer their resource to do with as they choose. The friendly paternalistic powers take that off their stupid, ignorant savage native hands…
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:37PM

Forgot Password
©2011 WOWIO, Inc. All Rights Reserved