Debate and Discussion

The current revolutions in the middle east
ozoneocean at 1:18PM, March 18, 2011
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El Cid
But the Libyan government did agree to pay compensation to the victims in both cases, did it not?
Did you actually follow that case when it was happening?
They did not accept culpability, the only reason they agreed to pay was so that their oil industy would no longer by shackled by the ridiculously draconian sanctions that were being imposed (among other things). As soon as they signed that deal almost all restrictions on the country were lifted. It was a horrific blackmail on the entire populace. That “compensation” is in reality the wealth of the Libyan people being pissed away. It was the price Libya had to pay to get the US off their back so they could function as a normal country again.

El Cid
I think it's better to be concerned with substance than with what something can be construed to sound like. It's in nobody's interest for Qaddafi to stay in power except for Qaddafi's, so I have no problem with forces internal or external helping him on his way.
Internal forces are perfectly ok.
External forces however take us down the same road as Afghanistan and Iraq. Only a moron would want to go that way now.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:37PM
imshard at 3:48PM, March 18, 2011
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Ozone I think you've overreacted and let your own bias cloud your perception of the issue.

Ghadaffi DID admit to sanctioning those attacks. He publicly bragged about some of them on camera. Others were traced back to him and he admitted them too.

There was no armed rebellion until Ghadaffi started the shooting. Not all the Rebels were protesters and not all the protesters are armed rebels either. Ghadaffi continues discouraging unarmed crowds with machine guns today. The protests never stopped. People are still braving the streets unarmed with banners that have nothing to do with the rebels.

You don't have to convince anybody this is about the oil. We know that, but for once it happens to coincide with doing the right thing. Unlike Iraq the Libyans HAVE asked for intervention. NO ground forces are being proposed. Quite the opposite, the majority are refusing to involve themselves in a ground war, the USA included.

As popular a myth as stealing the oil is, its not based in fact. To this day Iraq maintains control over all its oil royalties. ($2-3 Billion a month) http://www.iraqoilreport.com/ It shows a stark lack of understanding in how the energy business works when people say “oh they just want the oil”. Oil companies are too highly scrutinized to blatantly move in and seize all the profits from a given source. There are international laws against it, and enough watchdog agencies both official and independent to make sure that the host country gets more than a pittance. Its part of why prices are so high in the first place.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 12:59PM
kyupol at 6:26AM, March 20, 2011
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Oh great. The globalists (USA, EU, etc. are not controlled by their people so its incorrect to say “USA”, “Britain” etc.) decided to meddle. Real power lies in places like Bilderberg, Bohemian Grove, etc.

More economic bankruptcy…

Ever wonder why there seems to be all the money in the world for conducting wars and creating police-state grids back home? If you look at your history, its regimes like the NAZIS who did things like that. Wars abroad and police state measures back home.

Meanwhile there is always no money for funding social programs or stuff like that. These pack of criminals running the system arent even socialists as some would say.

Then… they keep raising taxes and making it harder to do business.

Wake up. Get people like Ron Paul into office.

Time and time again. Big Government = Epic Fail. Because all it does is create wars and police states at home. And pain and suffering for people like you and me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-qm9U3X3EU
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last edited on July 14, 2011 1:27PM
bravo1102 at 7:42AM, March 20, 2011
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The retired military say a “No fly zone” is stupid and a waste of resources and won't help anyone.

So the Security Council votes for a No Fly Zone and cruise missiles and aircraft fly. Military expert s say that won't stop Qaddafi's forces or help anyone except a bunch of pilots get hours on new aircraft. British pilots are just itching to try out their Tornado and Typhoon fighters? Every modern aircraft modeller is waiting to see if they do any cool desert paint schemes?

At least that senile warmonger Reagan knew enough to do one strike and call it a day.

Haven't we learned anything?

I'm certain some wag in a motor pool somewhere in Britain is stencilling red jerboas on vehicles as we speak just in time for the upcoming 70 anniversary of the World War II North African Campaign in the same place with the same names. Benghazi, Tobruk…
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:34AM
blindsk at 11:47PM, March 20, 2011
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bravo1102
I'm certain some wag in a motor pool somewhere in Britain is stencilling red jerboas on vehicles as we speak just in time for the upcoming 70 anniversary of the World War II North African Campaign in the same place with the same names. Benghazi, Tobruk…

And in the case of US involvement, we at least have a history with this place. After all, it's where we launched our first campaign against terror (in fact, I believe it was the US' first war on foreign soil since becoming a nation).

Bringing down a leader there is like coming into full circle. I guess it's true what they say about history and repeating itself.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:25AM
imshard at 12:12PM, March 21, 2011
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In other middle east news

Yemen is facing final stages of government collapse as senior officials resign and the military leaders cast their support with the protesters: http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_theenvoy/20110321/ts_yblog_theenvoy/yemens-saleh-on-the-brink-as-generals-join-protesters

and Syria continues trying to stop its largest protest yet
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=134658580

Bahrain continues to exert its cool down with assistance from Saudi troops, while Iran looks on with displeasure.
A lot of attention is being focused on Libya but many other countries are still in turmoil as well.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 12:59PM
blindsk at 11:32AM, March 22, 2011
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I'm not really following what's happening with the UN and Libya lately, but I can tell you one thing - how the US is handling this is interesting…very, very interesting. And not in a good way.

Apparently we're considered at war with Libya after our recent attacks on their nation. However, little to no press releases have stated that we planned on doing this. In fact, the news over here hasn't acknowledged anything about war in another country so far (in my area). There has been no public forum to discuss our motives or directives for attacking Libya; it's almost as if our current administration just sort of decided to attack them overnight and not tell anyone about it.

The worst of it is, this makes the Bush administration's decision to go to war in previous years appear to have a strategic and sound foreign policy. We had a reason for invading then, even if an absolutely wrong one. And now, we have almost no rationale for instigating an attack, other than the only assumption I can come up with which is displacing their leader.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:25AM
imshard at 4:06PM, March 22, 2011
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The USA has not issued a declaration of war. So far the USA has cooperated with a UN no-fly zone, with mainly French and British forces participating. NATO as a group is not participating though many members are giving independent support of their own.

To me the goal is a public secret. The UN authorized the move to stop attacks on civilians. A lofty goal but the endgame condition can only be Ghadaffi's ouster.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 12:59PM
blindsk at 5:25PM, March 22, 2011
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imshard
The USA has not issued a declaration of war. So far the USA has cooperated with a UN no-fly zone, with mainly French and British forces participating. NATO as a group is not participating though many members are giving independent support of their own.

To me the goal is a public secret. The UN authorized the move to stop attacks on civilians. A lofty goal but the endgame condition can only be Ghadaffi's ouster.

I think it's a mistake not to consider this war. Okay, so we are providing some additional muscle from the sideline, but how long do you think that really is going to last? With what I've been reading, if the opposing forces are mobilizing like they have been, there will be so much pressure to send in ground troops.

Dipping ones toes into the cesspool of war inevitably gets them pulled in, and attempting to claw their way out never works without losing major face.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:25AM
kyupol at 5:43PM, March 22, 2011
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The West and al-Quaeda on the same team.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8391632/Libya-the-West-and-al-Qaeda-on-the-same-side.html

Where is bin Laden?

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last edited on July 14, 2011 1:27PM
kyupol at 3:19PM, March 25, 2011
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From the horse's mouth…

Libyan rebel commander admits his fighters have al-Qaeda links

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8407047/Libyan-rebel-commander-admits-his-fighters-have-al-Qaeda-links.html

I thought the war on terrorism is against Al-Quaeda?

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last edited on July 14, 2011 1:27PM

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