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The decline of anime in North America
Sidwarrious at 1:48PM, Jan. 11, 2008
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isukun
I value my own opinion over…
There in lies the problem. Just because you think something doesn't make it true. I'm gonna just stop discussing with you now since you keep doing that. If I could find an article in Newtype or anime Insider that expressed the same sentiment would you believe it or would you just say “I'm right and everyon else is wrong”? Don't answer, I don't care anymore.

And mlai, c'mon that wasn't jumping the shark, that was uppercutting it out of the water. God bless if you if you get that reference. God bless you.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:36PM
Ziffy88 at 2:14PM, Jan. 11, 2008
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You have to realize that comic shops also caters to certain audience mainly comic books and really they only can sell what people will buy. They can't return their products or get refunds.
last edited on July 14, 2011 5:02PM
Sidwarrious at 3:07PM, Jan. 11, 2008
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Actually the shop I frequent most probably has more manga then comics, if you don't count all the unsold old comics.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:36PM
Ziffy88 at 3:22PM, Jan. 11, 2008
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actual independent comic book shops or corporate bookstores like Barnes and Nobles they're treated differently
last edited on July 14, 2011 5:02PM
Sidwarrious at 3:32PM, Jan. 11, 2008
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An actual stripmall comic shop. There are 2 of them but that's not quit “Franchised” especially when I know the owner personally and he still worked in his stores as a cashier and when we buy comics he invariably says “I get to eat today!”
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:36PM
Ziffy88 at 7:20PM, Jan. 11, 2008
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that neat. Most of the shops near me focuses more on the Big Four comic publishers(though Dark Horse does publish manga) But still if you go to Barnes and Nobles or Borders they pack a bunch of manga into the shelves and well a bunch of kids are reading them and buying them. I don't know if that help generates sales for the animes most of them are based.
last edited on July 14, 2011 5:02PM
Sidwarrious at 9:24PM, Jan. 11, 2008
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You'd think it would but no. I know many people who just read the whole thing in the stores and never buy them. I was with a black friend and when we sat down and started reading manga he got pissed scared thinking people were coming to come out and beat his ass for stealing. True story.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:36PM
mlai at 7:26AM, Jan. 12, 2008
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Sidwarrious
I was with a black friend and when we sat down and started reading manga he got pissed scared thinking people were coming to come out and beat his ass for stealing. True story.
You guys do live in the South n' all. 8D

FIGHT current chapter: Filling In The Gaps
FIGHT_2 current chapter: Light Years of Gold
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:06PM
Sidwarrious at 7:50AM, Jan. 12, 2008
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Yes but we were at the Summit, where the rich white folk live. Even some of my whtie friends don't like going there cuz we feel so poor. Lol, one of my more redneck friends(Garretjax in RL) was walking into the Barnes and Nobles there and whispered “I don't feel like I belong. This is a dark and evil place. Look at all these white people”
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:36PM
Puff_Of_Smoke at 7:52PM, Jan. 12, 2008
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Alright, now, let's review the term otaku and it's real meaning.

otaku in japanese = your house, your home.

Now, upon learning this, where the hell did that term come from, anyhow?
I
I have a gun. It's really powerful. Especially against living things.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:55PM
Hawk at 11:34PM, Jan. 12, 2008
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Yeah, that's the dictionary definition of it, but the term has been slanged. The weird thing is, anime fans in America think the term “otaku” is some kind of badge of honor as they stuff overpriced Pocky in their mouths and barely fit into their Cardcaptor Sakura costume.

In Japan, an “otaku” is a nerdy enthusiast of anything (computer otaku, anime otaku, shoehorn otaku) and the mainstream Japanese people look down on them.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:46PM
Ziffy88 at 8:50AM, Jan. 13, 2008
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basically otaku=geek of any genre?
last edited on July 14, 2011 5:02PM
AQua_ng at 10:30AM, Jan. 13, 2008
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Any genre. Anything. Even trains.

K.A.L.A-dan! Brigade Captain :D
K.A.L.A.-dan forums!
last edited on July 14, 2011 10:58AM
Kxela at 2:48PM, Jan. 13, 2008
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pretty much.

I dont think there is a decline, more like the growth in the popularity of it has slowed down/ isnt as rapid as it used to be a while ago.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:24PM
Ziffy88 at 8:16PM, Jan. 13, 2008
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so would this decline be part of the way anime is treated really special by its fans. I can't help it, but all I see is as another use of animation, and alot of them are not that well animated.
last edited on July 14, 2011 5:02PM
isukun at 5:03AM, Jan. 14, 2008
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Just because you think something doesn't make it true.

Which could also be said of any person's opinion on ANN. It's a site run by fans, their opinions aren't any more valid than my own. That was my point.

otaku in japanese = your house, your home.

Otaku is also a more formal way of referring to another person. The word as it was used by geeks in Japan literally just means “you”. It stuck because many of the early pop culture geeks in Japan spoke more formally with each other.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:04PM
Sidwarrious at 10:45AM, Jan. 14, 2008
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No it's not. It has writers and researchers and the such who attend cons and report. Fans can find news articles and such but that's the extent of involvement. Once again, just because you think something doesn't make it true.

But I'm not gonna argue anymore. You wouldn't listen anyway. I could sit Zac Bertschy in your lap and you'd tell me he was imaginary.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:36PM
isukun at 7:39AM, Jan. 15, 2008
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Fans can find news articles and such but that's the extent of involvement.

Wow, you don't know much about fans. Fans are just as capable of researching, finding corporate data, reading press releases, attending cons, and writing reports as anyone else. In fact, if you look through the staff notes for ANN, only two of the people on staff have any journalism experience and both worked exclusively for anime magazines. Nobody is listed as having a degree in jounalism (or even any interest in it) and many of them are referred to as “otaku” in their descriptions. They even talk about how the site started as a “hobby” and many of the staff members are working on the side (as in ANN isn't their main job). Hell, they even have a high school student “on staff”. Not to mention the lack of any sort of main office, these guys are working out of their homes from all over the country. It is a fan site, run by fans.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:04PM
Hawk at 9:46AM, Jan. 15, 2008
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Ziffy88
so would this decline be part of the way anime is treated really special by its fans. I can't help it, but all I see is as another use of animation, and alot of them are not that well animated.

I'm glad you mentioned that, because I agree. I've met people who believe that Japanese animation is superior by default. They claim that it is naturally deeper or of a higher quality but I think that's an ignorant point of view.

Sorry anime fans, but there are as many cartoon turds in Japan as there are anywhere else, but the eyes are just bigger.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:46PM
isukun at 11:35AM, Jan. 15, 2008
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Most of the people I know tend to know better than to say anime is inherantly superior in terms of quality. They do recognize, however, that anime does tend to target a larger and often older audience than shows from the West where animation is still widely believed to be a children's medium. In addition, even among the shows that target children, the Japanese are a little less anal about what their kids watch than we are, so many of their “children's” shows have broader appeal.

So while it's true there is a lot of crap on the airwaves in Japan, too, they also treat animation a bit differently than we do. I can see why many fans would prefer anime over Western animation, even though I'm not really one of those fans.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:04PM
Ziffy88 at 1:41PM, Jan. 15, 2008
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Cartoons from Japan tend to be better than cartoons in America because of what they are allow to do. However a lot of times I feel like it's more of a problem caused by the people who publishes these shows on the states. Like in Adult Swim a lot of the shows they aired were not really that adult. Sure there's violence cussing and sexual situations but it's feels like something for a pre-teen or teenager, like the last Die Hard movie. It kind of alienated me. That and the fact a lot of their writing has way too much exposition. The action scenes are normally very decompressed and takes a bunch of shortcuts but then the terrible dialog in between those scenes. “Well you see the Gundam is better than the previous one's because it's made of a special alloy and the pilots are pre-cogs and they evolved…” I'm sorry but dialog like that is just terrible.
Best example Naruto. Every thing they do they have to explain it like if it was real and would make sense to anyone. It doesn't and it's stupid!
last edited on July 14, 2011 5:02PM
Hawk at 1:11AM, Jan. 16, 2008
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Whether or not a person enjoys anime more is strictly a matter of taste I guess… My point was that a cartoon being anime is not a safe basis by which to pre-judge a cartoon's quality. A lot of anime fans get that impression because the stuff that makes it overseas is typically the stuff that's better, more successful, or at least easier to localize. There's a lot of stuff staying in Japan that I wouldn't ever recommend.

Ziffy88
Like in Adult Swim a lot of the shows they aired were not really that adult. Sure there's violence cussing and sexual situations but it's feels like something for a pre-teen or teenager, like the last Die Hard movie. It kind of alienated me.

I fully agree with that. A lot of the “humor” I see in Adult Swim is the kind I associate with children and young teens. Really immature stuff. In fact, I just got done trying to watch Adult Swim's translated Shin-chan. This was a show I thought was really clever and enjoyable in Japan, but whoever localized it ruined it. They didn't just mistranslate it, some bonehead thought it was be funnier and “edgy” if the characters were always talking about prostitutes and swearing in out-of-place situations. The localization retains none of the original's charm.

Ziffy88
That and the fact a lot of their writing has way too much exposition. The action scenes are normally very decompressed and takes a bunch of shortcuts but then the terrible dialog in between those scenes. “Well you see the Gundam is better than the previous one's because it's made of a special alloy and the pilots are pre-cogs and they evolved…” I'm sorry but dialog like that is just terrible.
Best example Naruto. Every thing they do they have to explain it like if it was real and would make sense to anyone. It doesn't and it's stupid!

You're naming all the things that bug me about anime. The worst thing about Naruto is that they put fight scenes on hold to do all that explaining you mentioned, which completely destroys the pacing. I don't want a flashback while two characters are in the middle of a fight to the death. I especially don't want those fighters to stand still while the people watching them discuss their life history.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:46PM
Frostflowers at 6:24AM, Jan. 16, 2008
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Hawk
Ziffy88
so would this decline be part of the way anime is treated really special by its fans. I can't help it, but all I see is as another use of animation, and alot of them are not that well animated.

I'm glad you mentioned that, because I agree. I've met people who believe that Japanese animation is superior by default. They claim that it is naturally deeper or of a higher quality but I think that's an ignorant point of view.

Sorry anime fans, but there are as many cartoon turds in Japan as there are anywhere else, but the eyes are just bigger.
The thing most of these Japanese-animation-is-superior people don't know is that a lot of the time, (at least with older anime) the animation is actually inferior.

Take the sequences where everyone is standing still and talking, cutting back and forth between the characters - all that really moves are their mouths, and their hair, if it's windy. This is because of time/money/technique constraints, the Japanese simply did not have the ability to animate as much motion as they might have wanted; it's easier to reuse animation-sequences and merely change the shapes of the characters mouths than it is to get very creative with the “camera” work and action sequences.

Over time, this manner of animation evolved into an established style, so that now, even though they could do everything more complicated, they choose not to. Most anime release a new episode every week, which means the time constraints are still there; if you want to see real quality Japanese animation, you'll have to look to the feature length films. *

(*All of this information I got from a documentary on anime I saw a couple of weeks back. Take it with a pinch of salt and feel free to refute it.)


And as for the dragged out fights in anime like Naruto… Some of it is there as filler in non-filler episodes, so that they can drag out a manga-chapter for a few more episodes, to make sure they don't catch up with where the manga is. Sad, but that's the way it is.
The Continued Misadventures of Bonebird - a poor bird's quest for the ever-elusive and delicious apples.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:31PM
Ziffy88 at 2:00PM, Jan. 16, 2008
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then does this come between substance of the storytelling vs. amount of episodes.
last edited on July 14, 2011 5:02PM
isukun at 9:44PM, Jan. 16, 2008
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The thing most of these Japanese-animation-is-superior people don't know is that a lot of the time, (at least with older anime) the animation is actually inferior.

I take some offense to this. In the time prior to the 90's, the Japanese actually ANIMATED things. This is more than I can say for the American studios (you can't tell me that the Hanna Barbera crap on TV back in th 80's was visually better than most of the anime from the same time period) of the time or even many of the more modern anime series that make it to TV. Sure, the pictures are cleaner, but you get a lot of standing and talking with the occasional action between dialogs. Also, rotoscoping has become a pretty common practice in recent anime, and not just rotoscoping from live action movies, but also from other anime.

Over time, this manner of animation evolved into an established style, so that now, even though they could do everything more complicated, they choose not to.

Actually, it's the exact opposite. Production costs for anime have gone up. The average frames per episode have gone down since the mid 90's and studios are rotoscoping far more than they ever did in the past. Anime series are getting shorter. With the exception of your highly popular fight-of-the-week animations, a standard anime season is between twelve and thirteen episodes when ten years ago it was twenty-six. Apart from digital coloring and cleaner linework, the quality of anime has gone way down since the older series. Take Urusei Yatsura for example. Many American fans today can't get into it because it is “ugly” by today's standards. Still, it was rare for any character in it to talk without moving in some way. You didn't get a lot of still shot conversations. You'd get a lot of scenes full of motion and even fully animated backgrounds for dynamic camera moves. Shows like Macross and Dirty Pair would have some truly impressive action and special effects sequences that most studios would use full CG for these days. Back in the 80's and earlier, you had perfectionists like Miyazaki and Nakamura putting out shows that to this day shames a lot of modern anime.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:04PM
Frostflowers at 1:25AM, Jan. 17, 2008
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Seems I've been misinformed then. Blame it on Swedish television airing not-so-factual documentaries.
The Continued Misadventures of Bonebird - a poor bird's quest for the ever-elusive and delicious apples.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:31PM
Ziffy88 at 1:36PM, Jan. 17, 2008
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well Hanna Barbara was crap in the 80s I mean before that it was excusable because they made some good shows but after yeesh…terrible. It wasn't until the 90s when Cartoons got really good here. Plus how long have we outsorced animation to Korea or Japan
last edited on July 14, 2011 5:02PM
isukun at 7:02PM, Jan. 17, 2008
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Tehnically we've been doing it since the 70's, but it didn't get really common until the 80's. Today you'd be hard pressed to find any TV animation project that doesn't rely on Korean studios (even the Japanese send off their series to Korea for inbetweening, cleanup, coloring, and often background work).
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:04PM
Ziffy88 at 8:12PM, Jan. 17, 2008
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really that early wow we're always cheap but at least the writing got better in the 90s but wow that's cheap…
last edited on July 14, 2011 5:02PM
Hawk at 2:57PM, Jan. 18, 2008
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Hannah Barbera certainly is known for cheapening animation, but at that point the deal was “Make it cheaper or don't make it at all”. It's hard for a lot of younger people to realize that cartoons weren't so common several decades ago. It used to be reserved for the movie theaters. Those Bugs Bunny cartoons you see on Loony Toons were animated shorts that preceded full-length movies.

Really, we have Hannah Barbera to thank for helping to bring cartoons home to us. Sure, it was cheap and very prefabricated. Sure, we see the same run-cycle in every episode of Scooby Doo. But Yogi and Scooby and the Flintstones were what we were capable of at the time, given the budget limitations.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:46PM

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