Debate and Discussion

The Devil?
ozoneocean at 9:08AM, Nov. 13, 2006
(online)
posts: 24,789
joined: 1-2-2006
Is there such a thing as Satan? A hell of a lot of people believe that there is, (pardon the pun), and not just Christians either. Christianity, like Islam is a descendant from Judaism, one having a Greek/Latin influence and the other Arab, so they have many, many, many things in common; one of those being a belief that there is a ruling “devil” character who is somewhat antagonistic toward mankind.
A lot us, even religious people, would think of this character as symbolic, but many believe “him” to actually exist. Not only that, they believe “he” plays an active part in the world!

Why should we accept that such a mythological being really exists? Do you believe in it?

-My own personal view is that “Satan” is an interesting mythological amalgam of many beliefs and characters. The “Satan” myth is fascinating from a historical, and sociological point of view, but irritating and even alarming when people profess strong beliefs in it, and then go on to proselytise. (That means to preach at people)

-a good example is this site that came up in a Google add on Drunk Duck.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:24PM
Knuckles at 10:39AM, Nov. 13, 2006
(offline)
posts: 436
joined: 2-15-2006
Well, being a Christian, I believe he's quite real. But I guess we won't really know that for sure until we die, now won't we? But heaven forbid I would reall want to see him face to face. >.>

Myth Xaran (manga) - http://www.drunkduck.com/Myth_Xaran
Exodus Studios (Games & More) - http://www.exodus-studio.com
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:19PM
Tantz Aerine at 12:47PM, Nov. 13, 2006
(online)
posts: 1,616
joined: 10-11-2006
I think it's a real entity too, a creature. But that's that. The devil is none of anyone's business really. We haven't quite yet finished exploring our relationship to God and who God is in truth (church institutions' definitions and teachings aside) and how He is woven into our very lives to start wondering about anything else which is defined basically only by juxtaposition against the purity and good that God represents.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:06PM
Ronson at 1:20PM, Nov. 13, 2006
(online)
posts: 837
joined: 1-1-2006
The devil is as real as God.

Interpret that as you wish. ;)
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:10PM
Aurora Moon at 1:46PM, Nov. 13, 2006
(offline)
posts: 2,630
joined: 1-7-2006
Heh.. you know something? I've studied the various subjects on the “devil”…

and It seems that people are always confusing Luficifer with Satan, and so on forth. when the two are competely different people!

Most people think that Luficifer started being evil the mintue he opposied god and “became” Satan or whatever… but the truth of facts in the bible and othre sources state:

He was an angel who were against the idea of angels serving humans INSTEAD of god himself directly. He believed that only god himself was deserving of service from the angels, as seeing he believed humans to be a very flawed species (in which he was very right about)…
He only wanted all Angels to serve only a being that was “pure” enough and powerful… and he was fircely loyal to God, no matter what happened.
However, God pretty much got annoyed that Luficier kept on critzing the humans, his creation, and cast him down to earth to live as an human so that he would “walk a mile in thier shoes”, so to speak. all because Luficer thought that anything on earth, espeically the humans were a lowly speicies that didn't even deserve help from the angels, as seeing he believed the angels were an superior sort of race, with god as their ruler.


now, let me ask you people… if Lufcier was really Satan, then wouldn't that mean that Hell is actually EARTH itself, condisering that he got turned into an human? and second… it's been thousands of years ever snice that happened, so wouldn't Luficier have DIED by now, and proably sent back to heaven, having learned his lesson about pride?

So if Lucifer was Satan,and he died due to being an human, then that means that there's no Hell…or rather that hell is only a figure of speech, about what happens with consequences of your own actions in life.

that brings us to Satan…
the appearance of Satan never happened until midevil times, when The church started writing about him, and started talking about him in Mass.
beforehand, in any of the text that was written before midevil times, such as in the oringal bible, the herbew text… there was NO meition of Satan at all… much less an hell. it only merely talked about the Consequences that we (and also our children) would have to suffer if we went with the horribly wrong choices: such as raping, killing, etc.

so that makes me come to one conlcusion: there's no Hell. only the hell made up by the priests in England in the middleages in order to control the masses and to inflict fear upon them so that they wouldn't ever lose control.

and believe me, I did tons of studies before I gave up religion like that.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:09AM
LIZARD_B1TE at 2:21PM, Nov. 13, 2006
(online)
posts: 3,308
joined: 6-22-2006
Hell doesn't make much sense anyway whn you think about it…

I would think of Hell as being more like Purgatory, in that it involves punishing sinners to make them “pure” for heaven.

As for a devil… who knows? And… who really cares?

The ideas of devil, demons, and Hell can make for nice stories if they get mixed in with some originality, though.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:36PM
subcultured at 4:58PM, Nov. 13, 2006
(online)
posts: 5,392
joined: 1-7-2006
satanist make me laugh
J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:00PM
Rich at 9:05PM, Nov. 13, 2006
(online)
posts: 1,434
joined: 2-11-2006
This is one debate that could go on forever. Just like a debate on if there is God, people will never agree on this issue. But then again, I'm not a christian. I don't pander to religions that practice hypocracy and hatred as part of their beliefs.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:06PM
ozoneocean at 6:17AM, Nov. 14, 2006
(online)
posts: 24,789
joined: 1-2-2006
We blend them all up together: Satan, Lucifer, Beelzebub, Mephistopheles, “The Devil”… etc. -Along with many entirely unchristian figures like Odin, Loki ( his daughter Hel), Shiva, Hades, Pluto, Osiris etc, etc.

They're all different things with different applications and meanings that have simply been hammered into the simplified Judaeo-Christian way of looking at the world: Good/bad, Black/White, With me/Against me, Right/Wrong… This has been done through a mixture of ignorance and the natural blending and evolving of mythology, culture, and meaning over time.
So the precise the historical, textual, scriptural nature of the character isn't as important as the nature of the belief.

For those that do believe in the existence of a “Devil”, do you believe it to be something more abstract, like a nebulous evil force? Or an anthromorphisation of negative intent -“evil” in human-like form, ( the classic horned, red figure from medieval times)? Or maybe even something else?

Why is it even important to have a “Devil” at all? I notice Tantz mentions he's a good juxtaposition for the meaning of God, but that's still just a Judaeo-Christian interpretation; other cultures with gods had (and have) far more complicated systems that don't require such a simple delegation of roles… The pattern of a lot of non-Chirsian, Judaic, or Islamic belief seems to be that all deities have some shave of “evil”, “moderate”, and “good” qualities to varying degrees, no one deity having a monopoly on any trait.

I find the belief that there is a real “Satan” who exists now and is abroad affecting the world in a negative way (an idea usually espoused by evangelical Christian sects) preposterous, and yet it's so incredibly interesting to me that the belief even exists.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:24PM
lothar at 8:48AM, Nov. 14, 2006
(online)
posts: 1,299
joined: 1-3-2006
heres how i see it - the devil is the old god of the whole Earth. “God” god is the new god that came from somewhere else : he wants to be god of the humans. it's all twisted . they say the devils power is to fool humans and make them do evil stuff.
then WHY is it that soo much of the evil in this world comes directly from these people claiming to represent “god”
Because they have been FOOLED ! under all their BS scriptures and teachings all the main religions are just a cover for humans own fractured skitso disfunctional brains. ever since we came out of the trees we have been getting progressively more skrewed up ! seperating from the rest of the Earth,
The ultimate goal of this god of the humans is the destruction of the Earth !
why does the devil have horns
why is hell at the center of the earth
why do all the abrahamic religions look forward to an end of the world ?
why are these religions so oposed to science ?
the tower of babylon ?
the flood ?

i think the devil is a forgotten part of us , back when we were more simple, before we got these crazy ideas about absolutes, light and dark , good and evil .
the darkness that exists in all humans has just been pinned on the old creator, aka NATURE.
Heaven is portrayed as some antiseptic whitewashed humans only quarantine somewhere out in the cold reaches of space . i would much rather sink down into the warm depths of the earth with the worms. all life on this planet is an unbroken chain of existence , why seek to sever that with artificial divisions ? All are Earthlings: whales and cochroaches included. Only WE are the self hating Earthlings . Suicidal species.

last edited on July 14, 2011 1:45PM
Aurora Moon at 9:08AM, Nov. 14, 2006
(offline)
posts: 2,630
joined: 1-7-2006
whoa. intersting idea there. O_O
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:09AM
Nightmare Zero at 10:05AM, Nov. 14, 2006
(offline)
posts: 1,045
joined: 8-14-2006
well… that was morbid. I believe that there is a god. I believe there is a devil and I believe that there is a diffrence between good and evil. Or in Kingdom Hearts terms Light and Darkness.
I'll accept your challenge anytime!

And check out Crest Holders!

http://www.drunkduck.com/community/view_topic.php?tid=24926&cid=233
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:16PM
ozoneocean at 11:05AM, Nov. 14, 2006
(online)
posts: 24,789
joined: 1-2-2006
As usual Lothar provides a fascinating and original take on things! I think that would go well in your comics Lothar. I'm pretty sure I've seen that theme in some of (if not all) your Bazil/lothar creations… It's an idea worth thinking about. In fact, a lot of revivalists of the older religions tend towards that position.

But as for the rest: Jebus dudes, WHY do you think there has to be a devil? It's not enough just to state what you believe, provide some justification or deeper explanation for it! Maybe it's my fault? Maybe I haven't provided a controversial, argumentative enough position…

Ok, how's this?
There IS no devil! It's a stupid, antiquated myth and you're an idiot to treat it as a reality. What kind of fool are you to think something like that could be real? I mean look at the classic images of the devil! It's a joke! A poor copy of Pan with Poseidon's Trident. You'd have to be a moron to take it seriously.
Besides, “God” is all powerful, infallible, all knowing, “he” HAS no rival, even in Christian mythology is OBVIOUS the “Devil” is only there to scare and tempt the halfwits.
And all this “Good Vs Evil” crap is outdated Medieval Christianity, get over it, or go live in a castle in Jerusalem somewhere like the Crusader twits that epitomised such belief!

-don't be offended, I'm just trying to inspire you to something more than bland statements. ;)
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:24PM
AQua_ng at 11:29AM, Nov. 14, 2006
(online)
posts: 7,830
joined: 4-6-2006
According to my R.E. classes, the devil was created in medieval times to give a physical form to all the evil in the world, thus the devil. (See? Old folks can do puns as well :D)

I'm not actually sure on what Satan is; I have always swapped the words Satan and Devil around. What I do know is that he had a little helper.

K.A.L.A-dan! Brigade Captain :D
K.A.L.A.-dan forums!
last edited on July 14, 2011 10:55AM
LIZARD_B1TE at 3:14PM, Nov. 14, 2006
(online)
posts: 3,308
joined: 6-22-2006
You know what would rock?

If God and the Devil did exist, but hated eachother, so they each built there own universes where they would raise up an army of souls to fight for them in the final battle. These souls would be collected by some girl in battle armor that actually covers her body. But one soul named Arngrim would not be able to fight with the other souls, and him and the girl would sneak into the enemy castle and destroy it!

…..

I need to lay off on Valkyrie Profile.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:36PM
ccs1989 at 6:12PM, Nov. 14, 2006
(online)
posts: 2,656
joined: 1-2-2006
For there to be good there must be evil, just like light and dark have to both exist. So obviously there would have to be a counter to God or things just wouldn't be interesting.

http://ccs1989.deviantart.com

“If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.”
-Henry David Thoreau, Walden
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:38AM
Phantom Penguin at 6:33PM, Nov. 14, 2006
(offline)
posts: 1,075
joined: 1-6-2006
I personally do not.
I've seen to much crap on this earth to think there is a god and devil.


But i'm sure i will find out when i die.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:42PM
ozoneocean at 6:40PM, Nov. 14, 2006
(online)
posts: 24,789
joined: 1-2-2006
ccs1989
For there to be good there must be evil, just like light and dark have to both exist. So obviously there would have to be a counter to God or things just wouldn't be interesting.
gahhh…. again, that's a stupid argument, simply restating the tired old medieval Christian viewpoint. Sorry CCS, but we've had it before in a few variations, it doesn't have the inherent logic you assume it does, and it's not advancing the discussion.
Good attempt though.

Ok, It looks like this debate is at a dead end. What have we learned? Well I think I can gather that people have nebulous beliefs about these matters. For some people, it's a subject they couldn't really be bothered to think about, for others it's simply part of their bedrock belief system and not really open to any discussion beyond statement, and still others care enough to think about it semantically or idealistically, but won't take it any further than that.
How dull.
Blah.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:24PM
yeahduff at 9:16PM, Nov. 14, 2006
(offline)
posts: 19
joined: 10-9-2006
ccs1989
For there to be good there must be evil.


I don't see why this needs to be the case. Perhaps we couldn't recognize good very well without its foil, but surely treating others justly and with respect will remain good whether evil is there or not. Heaven is good and lacks evil, and Hell won't exist after Armegeddon, so good will last forever without the existence of evil.

I read about a theory a month ago that Satan is actually an agent of God, there to do the dirty work. And it makes sense, as Ozone pointed out, God's all powerful and can have no equal or opposite. Otherwise, why should God keep him around?
Get yourself a lawyer and a gun.


last edited on July 14, 2011 4:53PM
AQua_ng at 9:00AM, Nov. 15, 2006
(online)
posts: 7,830
joined: 4-6-2006
Maybe we're all just elitists and think everything is evil. :)

K.A.L.A-dan! Brigade Captain :D
K.A.L.A.-dan forums!
last edited on July 14, 2011 10:55AM
Terminal at 5:05PM, Nov. 15, 2006
(online)
posts: 5,505
joined: 1-6-2006
We are the devil, people say that the devil steals, lies and does everything conventionally bad you can think of, who really does that?

Us.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:10PM
VegaX at 8:19AM, Nov. 16, 2006
(offline)
posts: 617
joined: 4-28-2006
Ronson
The devil is as real as God.
heh, pretty much sums up my thoughts aswell. If your a believer in the guy knows as “God” then the “Devil” must be around there somewhere aswell.

It's all part of the fairytale, or religion as some like to call it. ;)

last edited on July 14, 2011 4:39PM
Nightmare Zero at 5:21AM, Nov. 17, 2006
(offline)
posts: 1,045
joined: 8-14-2006
Exactly. And for anyone who is Athiest I say this: There has to be some kind of power higher than us. If somthing as beautiful as a baby can be created, there just has to be.
I'll accept your challenge anytime!

And check out Crest Holders!

http://www.drunkduck.com/community/view_topic.php?tid=24926&cid=233
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:16PM
VegaX at 8:47AM, Nov. 17, 2006
(offline)
posts: 617
joined: 4-28-2006
Nightmare Zero
There has to be some kind of power higher than us. If somthing as beautiful as a baby can be created, there just has to be.
You know of course that “God” has nothing to do with the actuall creation of a baby?
You see it is created when two people love each other very much and…..

heh just kidding with ya. ;)

last edited on July 14, 2011 4:39PM
Rich at 9:34AM, Nov. 17, 2006
(online)
posts: 1,434
joined: 2-11-2006
Nightmare Zero
Exactly. And for anyone who is Athiest I say this: There has to be some kind of power higher than us. If somthing as beautiful as a baby can be created, there just has to be.

Such a simple way of trying to prove god's existence can be disproved because someone could rape and kill a newborn baby and your god will do nothing to stop it. The police and court system will, but your god either isn't there, or doesn't care.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:06PM
ozoneocean at 2:12PM, Nov. 17, 2006
(online)
posts: 24,789
joined: 1-2-2006
Nightmare Zero
I'm just saying there has to be a higher power guiding us.
Why?
…I'm deleting simple statements without backup or support. This is a debate forum, BLAH BLAH BLAH!

On the subject of “gods” existing or not, Atheism is exactly the same as Theism, that is to say: religion. Both sides claim to know an answer they have no possible method of proving. You can't prove the existence of “god”, you can't disprove it. Either way it involves faith and belief. Being agnostic is probably a safer way to go; it's less arrogant in that you don't assume to know all the answers. After all, our knowledge of what the universe entails is always expanding, what we “knew” 100% to be true about the world 150 years ago is completely different to what we “know” now, who can say if what we “know” may not eventually also encompass the divine (in some form)?
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:24PM
Kristen Gudsnuk at 8:05AM, Dec. 2, 2006
(online)
posts: 1,340
joined: 10-4-2006
Rich
But then again, I'm not a christian. I don't pander to religions that practice hypocracy and hatred as part of their beliefs.

first of all, that's really ironic, because you're calling a religion hypocritical and hateful, which is a pretty hateful statement in itself, and then you're saying that you don't pander to hateful beliefs (which you apparently have towards christians!) ad in doing so, have made a hypocritical statement.

what a terrible statement to make!!! you should be ashamed. just because some extremists in some sects of Christianity may practice “hypocracy” doesn't mean that you should use a blanket statement like that to decry an entire religion. Yeah, the Crusades happened. but wars have happened all the time, for non-religious reasons. You can't say that just because people were manipulating a religion for their own evil means, that the religion itself is bad. Look at what the Bible professes. Not at what the scary conservative christians say; but the bible itself. Generally, the bible says “love others. Don't do unkind things. Forgive others.” What's so hateful about that? Don't get the message confused with the messenger.

Personally I don't believe in anything at all, but I like it when other people do. I fancy I'm a bit like the vietnam vet who never got to go to college because he was in war, but is happy to see his child get a better education. I guess.
There's no proof that God exists, except in the minds of people. If you FEEL the presence of God (just like I feel the presence of the keyboard under my fingertips) well then it makes perfect sense for you to believe in God, and depending on your denomination, Satan too. But if there's nothing there, there's nothing there. I'm not in some existentialist funk about it. I'm a pretty happy person, and the only reason that there's stress in my life is because of school, and not because of the abject state of godlessness of my soul.

And finally, about the actual topic of the Devil, I do see what Ozone is saying about it being a manmade construct to keep people in order (but the same could be said for religion). It especially brings to mind John Edwards' “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God” and how that was such a popular sermon for people in the Puritan days. Back then, the focus was all “hellfire and damnation” to scare people into being good christians, whereas nowadays the tone has changed radically. The bible hasn't changed, but the messages people are gleaning from it are different (for example, who was talking about God hating gays in the 1700s?)
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:22PM
MagickLorelai at 1:43PM, Dec. 2, 2006
(online)
posts: 320
joined: 1-20-2006
I don't believe in the devil as existing. ~.~;If there is such an existance of an evil entity, and a place called “Hell”, it's all within our heads, and within how we treat one another at times.

Oh yes, there are many people who are kind and loving to each other, who love unconditionally and do many good things for charity's sake. There are also people who take a good thing(like some of the ideas in the Bible) and turn them into a message of hatred and a reason for murder/persecution.

I have a bit of a headache, so I'm probably not making a very complete argument here, but I feel the devil was conjured up to instill fear in all people who believed in a Horned God before the creation of Christianity. It panders to the innermost and most basic fears and desires in our minds; If we are “good” and do what we have been told to do(by the Book), we go to a place where we are in eternal bliss and never have to deal with pain again, but if we are bad, or sin, we go to a place where we are tortured for eternity. This works, because life is hard. We go through horrible things every day, and long for a period of rest, with no more heartache or strife; thus, heaven appeals to us. We fear having to endure worse than what we get on Earth, thus hell and the devil frighten us.

This is just how I feel, though. I could very well be wrong(o.o; Yipes, and THAT is a scary idea!), but ultimately, that just means there's more room in heaven for someone more deserving. ;) I suppose the basic way of saying that I don't believe in the Devil, is because I don't buy into the whole Christian Mythology(and before you go off on me for using the word “Mythology”, look up the definition in the dictionary…hopefully not the one implying that all myths are lies…).

last edited on July 14, 2011 1:50PM
subcultured at 5:31PM, Dec. 2, 2006
(online)
posts: 5,392
joined: 1-7-2006
it's about universal balance..if you believe there is fire there must be water. if there is God then there is a devil. two polar extremes exists in a universe such as ours. with matter comes anti matter.
J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:00PM
MagickLorelai at 7:49PM, Dec. 2, 2006
(online)
posts: 320
joined: 1-20-2006
subcultured, not EVERY religion has a “God/Devil” dichotomy. If you believe in the CHRISTIAN God, you believe in the Devil.

last edited on July 14, 2011 1:50PM

Forgot Password
©2011 WOWIO, Inc. All Rights Reserved