Debate and Discussion

The Economy Is Going Well, Isn't It?
mapaghimagsik at 9:02AM, Nov. 27, 2007
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So a new Wal-mart opens, and has hundreds of openings. They sure didn't expect 6,000 applicants.

http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/business-4/119606989156620.xml&coll=2

So what does it mean? I thought the economy was going well, and joblessness was at an all time low.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
bobhhh at 9:11AM, Nov. 27, 2007
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mapaghimagsik
So a new Wal-mart opens, and has hundreds of openings. They sure didn't expect 6,000 applicants.

http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/business-4/119606989156620.xml&coll=2

So what does it mean? I thought the economy was going well, and joblessness was at an all time low.

The economy is just bitchen if you're a rich person.

First of all, youre rich, then you got a huge tax cut, and the estate tax was eviscerated. You can hide a lot of your income in stocks and commodities and pay only capital gains tax.

Plus a lot of people were thrown out of work by outsourcing and free trade, so its easy to find people to wash your car and mow your lawn cheap!!
My name is Bob and I approved this signature.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:29AM
trevoramueller at 10:15AM, Nov. 27, 2007
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Did anyone question this when we elected a guy who's bankrupt two oil companies before taking office?

And by elected, I mean “elected twice.”
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last edited on July 14, 2011 4:33PM
mapaghimagsik at 10:17AM, Nov. 27, 2007
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You mean appointed by the supreme court once, and elected once?
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
trevoramueller at 10:25AM, Nov. 27, 2007
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mapaghimagsik
You mean appointed by the supreme court once, and elected once?

Good call. He did lose the popular the first time around.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 4:33PM
imshard at 12:04PM, Nov. 27, 2007
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he had two terms we can't dodge responsibility for both of them.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 12:58PM
freefall_drift at 12:27PM, Nov. 27, 2007
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I live in the Seattle Area. There are plenty of Help Wanted signs in my area. At corner stores and retail shops. Nothing that pays much over minimum wage. Who can do much more than eek out a survival, if that, on minimum wage?
The economy sucks!
Living wage jobs are few and far between and going away fast. I think we are going to be a great depression in a few years.
Here is my tin foil hat conspiracy theory, just after the election, the Republican Fed Chairman guy, after keeping the prime rate as low as possible to get as many repubs reelected as possible, is going jack the prime rate to the ceiling, wiping out the economy, like under Carter, to fight inflation. The Repubs are going to then blame Edwards/Oboma for the bad economy. Win/Win!
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last edited on July 14, 2011 12:31PM
mapaghimagsik at 12:38PM, Nov. 27, 2007
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I don't mean to completely support your theory, but here's an interesting article:

http://www.alleyinsider.com/2007/11/fox-business-finds-conflicted-online-shopper.html


See, Fox News Business wanted to talk to a “man on the street”. Sounds like this guy wasn't such a “man on the street”. Were they just being lazy, and needed someone?
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
freefall_drift at 12:44PM, Nov. 27, 2007
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mapaghimagsik
See, Fox News Business wanted to talk to a “man on the street”. Sounds like this guy wasn't such a “man on the street”. Were they just being lazy, and needed someone?
You are asking Faux News Business to be accurate? Bwahahahaha ……

I heard a joke recently. A recession is where your neighbor loses his house. A depression is when you do.

Seriously, who here has a well paying safe job? This is the first generation that doesn't think it's going to be better for their kids.
http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/wages.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/30/opinion/30wed1.html
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last edited on July 14, 2011 12:31PM
mapaghimagsik at 1:25PM, Nov. 27, 2007
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What do you mean by safe? Do you mean whether someone feels secure in the position they are working in?
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
imshard at 2:09PM, Nov. 27, 2007
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I have a safe good-paying job!
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last edited on July 14, 2011 12:58PM
TitanOne at 4:13PM, Nov. 27, 2007
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trevoramueller
mapaghimagsik
You mean appointed by the supreme court once, and elected once?

Good call. He did lose the popular the first time around.

No, he was actually still elected under constitutional rules, at least as long as nothing illegal/improper happened regarding the Supreme Court. There was no investigation, so I'm assuming his election in 2000 was legitimate.

Popular vote doesn't elect a President. It never has.

Now, 2004 is a whole other matter, because I do not consider Diebold computer ballots to be legitimate ballots. If a state hung in the balance over computer voting with no paper trail, it was not a legitimate election.

I didn't vote for him either time, by the way, so don't blame me.



last edited on July 14, 2011 4:30PM
Gordon CSA at 7:48PM, Nov. 27, 2007
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Weird, If anything, I thought of the 2000 election as being more messed up than the 2004 one. And the popular vote should. Though thats for another thread.

A public work progam got us out of the last depression. Maybe we need another one to avoid another depression. And the money to pay them comes from taxes. In fact, instead of just taxing the rich, just have an automatic tax on all celebrities. Hehe. Or a giant team of tax-in hoods, taxing the rich to give to the poor. :)
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last edited on July 14, 2011 12:38PM
kyupol at 8:29PM, Nov. 27, 2007
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The USA is on the decline as the world's superpower.

Its a cycle. When a nation reaches its peak, it eventually declines and goes back to 3rd world status (or at least waayyy much poorer or weaker than they were at their peak).

Look at the countries like Iraq, Egypt, Greece, Italy, Spain, Brazil, Japan, Indonesia, etc. They were once mighty powers. :)
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last edited on July 14, 2011 1:25PM
mapaghimagsik at 9:47PM, Nov. 27, 2007
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Perhaps that's true, that America is in decline. But we do have choices about our future. I think we're choosing between a hard and soft landing, if we choose to go softly into that good night.

Although, I'd like to point out, Rome was once an empire, and still did some very cool things long after, and they made a contribution.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
horseboy at 11:35PM, Nov. 27, 2007
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Yeah, that's in Cleveland. The midwest/Ohio Valley is having a hard time of it. I've been unemployed since April. Of course, I'm in a saw mill economy, it's not like there's much out here.
There is no such word as “alot”. “A lot” is two words.
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Never seek for happiness, it will merely allude the seeker. Never strive for knowledge, it is beyond man's scope. Never think, for in though lies all the ills of mankind. The wise man, like the rat, the crocodile, the fly, merely fulfills his natural function.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:50PM
cartoonprofessor at 3:16AM, Nov. 28, 2007
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Not meaning to be a downer or anything… but …um… I guess you should all read this.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:36AM
bbr at 5:25AM, Nov. 28, 2007
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Hehee :D
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:15AM
DAJB at 5:54AM, Nov. 28, 2007
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kyupol
The USA is on the decline as the world's superpower.
Maybe. But only in relative terms. For the time being, at least, there's no other country that can challenge the supremacy of the US, so its status as “sole super power” looks safe for a while yet.

kyupol
Look at the countries like Iraq, Egypt, Greece, Italy, Spain, Brazil, Japan, Indonesia, etc. They were once mighty powers. :)
Hey, don't forget us Brits! We're entitled to wallow in past glories, too!
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:03PM
mapaghimagsik at 8:12AM, Nov. 28, 2007
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kyupol
The USA is on the decline as the world's superpower.
Maybe. But only in relative terms. For the time being, at least, there's no other country that can challenge the supremacy of the US, so its status as “sole super power” looks safe for a while yet.

kyupol
Look at the countries like Iraq, Egypt, Greece, Italy, Spain, Brazil, Japan, Indonesia, etc. They were once mighty powers. :)
Hey, don't forget us Brits! We're entitled to wallow in past glories, too!

Supremacy in what? You might be right as far as lets say toe to toe military goes, but toe to to military hasn't been done in *ages* And this orgiastic excitement we have over things that go boom…well, its kind of old.

I cite again the fact that in Kosovo, we were firing multi-million dollar missiles at $20 dollar targets. This is where the Command and Conquer folks should at least get it that you can't afford to blow those kind of resources for that little of gain. Sun Tzu is giggling at us.

I rode in a train from Washington DC to California, and wound up talking to a Brit Soldier off to pick up one of his fellows that went AWOL in the states and cooling down in a jail in LA, I think.

We got to talking, and somewhere the conversation turned into him saying loudly,
“Yeah, and who invented the first Steam engine! The Brits!”
“And who invented the first machine gun, The Brits!”

“And who developed the first concentration camp? The Brits!”

We in the US aren't used to having to wallow yet, so we don't do it quite as much with as much humorous cynicism.

Though it is interesting that we seem to be following in Britain's footsteps regarding Iraq.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
horseboy at 8:34AM, Nov. 28, 2007
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Hey, don't forget us Brits! We're entitled to wallow in past glories, too!
Or France. But, well, Hollywood holds American influence on a global scale, from entertainment to fashion to maintaining English as the modern linqua francios. Cause even Rammstein admits that we all live in America. ;)
There is no such word as “alot”. “A lot” is two words.
Voltaire
Never seek for happiness, it will merely allude the seeker. Never strive for knowledge, it is beyond man's scope. Never think, for in though lies all the ills of mankind. The wise man, like the rat, the crocodile, the fly, merely fulfills his natural function.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:50PM
mapaghimagsik at 8:38AM, Nov. 28, 2007
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Or Spain. Jeebus, what is it about you folks that make you just desperately need to pwn the Philippines?
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
trevoramueller at 9:55AM, Nov. 28, 2007
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trevoramueller
mapaghimagsik
You mean appointed by the supreme court once, and elected once?

Good call. He did lose the popular the first time around.

No, he was actually still elected under constitutional rules, at least as long as nothing illegal/improper happened regarding the Supreme Court. There was no investigation, so I'm assuming his election in 2000 was legitimate.

Popular vote doesn't elect a President. It never has.

Now, 2004 is a whole other matter, because I do not consider Diebold computer ballots to be legitimate ballots. If a state hung in the balance over computer voting with no paper trail, it was not a legitimate election.

I didn't vote for him either time, by the way, so don't blame me.

Oh, I know that the popular vote doesn't elect someone - our electoral colleges do.

And I also didn't vote for him either time. However, somehow he was able to get into office, mess things up, and then get into office again.

And to my knowledge, there's really no plan in the works to fix things domestically - only to invade more countries in the middle east (cough cough iran cough cough).
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last edited on July 14, 2011 4:33PM
Mister Mxyzptlk at 12:23PM, Nov. 28, 2007
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trevoramueller
Did anyone question this when we elected a guy who's bankrupt two oil companies before taking office?

The problem with your point is this is not all Bush's fault. Sure he could have done some extreme things with the economy to try and slow the process down or even reverse it but those things would have been too scary for the average monkey on the street. This is just the end of a trend that was started back with the creation of the Federal Reserve System and taking the dollar off the gold standard.

Sure, I know all the popular countries were doing it too and there was a lot of peer pressure on the US to go along. It's so hard to resist the urge to go with the crowd after all. But what it did was allow the government to spend money without any restrictions. They were able to flood the economy with money to give a slow economy a “shot in the arm” by simply changing the rate at which the central banks loaned money to member banks.

However it created inflation and unless you get someone in power who has the balls to let a deflationary cycle happen now and again you keep making more money that has less value. But deflationary cycles look so bad on a resume, politicians fear deflation more than pictures of them with a 14 year old hooker. So it ain't gonna happen in a rational way, it will happen in a hard and brutal way without any controls. What we are seeing now is just the beginning of the end.
My soul was removed to make room for all this sarcasm.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:04PM
horseboy at 12:39PM, Nov. 28, 2007
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[quote=“Mister Mxyzptlk
The problem with your point is this is not all Bush's fault. Sure he could have done some extreme things with the economy to try and slow the process down or even reverse it but those things would have been too scary for the average monkey on the street. This is just the end of a trend that was started back with the creation of the Federal Reserve System and taking the dollar off the gold standard.

Sure, I know all the popular countries were doing it too and there was a lot of peer pressure on the US to go along. It's so hard to resist the urge to go with the crowd after all. But what it did was allow the government to spend money without any restrictions. They were able to flood the economy with money to give a slow economy a ”shot in the arm" by simply changing the rate at which the central banks loaned money to member banks.

However it created inflation and unless you get someone in power who has the balls to let a deflationary cycle happen now and again you keep making more money that has less value. But deflationary cycles look so bad on a resume, politicians fear deflation more than pictures of them with a 14 year old hooker. So it ain't gonna happen in a rational way, it will happen in a hard and brutal way without any controls. What we are seeing now is just the beginning of the end.
You know, I haven't heard anybody asking if a recession would actually be good in the long run. When I left B'more a house that was 14' across was hitting $200k. WTF was that all about? There's no good reason that a house that rinky dink should cost that much. I'd consider it to just be a massive self correction/reality check. Sure it means I'm probably going to have to work in a saw mill for a couple of years, but that hopefully means my nephew won't have to if he doesn't want.
There is no such word as “alot”. “A lot” is two words.
Voltaire
Never seek for happiness, it will merely allude the seeker. Never strive for knowledge, it is beyond man's scope. Never think, for in though lies all the ills of mankind. The wise man, like the rat, the crocodile, the fly, merely fulfills his natural function.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:50PM
Mister Mxyzptlk at 3:02PM, Nov. 28, 2007
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horseboy
You know, I haven't heard anybody asking if a recession would actually be good in the long run.

I don't know if “good” is the word to use. Inevitable it a better one…

horseboy
When I left B'more a house that was 14' across was hitting $200k. WTF was that all about?

The housing market was the only place the Fed could use to inflate the economy after the other bubbles burst during Clinton's reign. So they created a situation where money for homes was cheep. Remember Bush's “ownership society” crap? All part of the plan to continue the inflationary economy. If the Fed ever stops inflating we will have that recession and it will be long and deep.

horseboy
Sure it means I'm probably going to have to work in a saw mill for a couple of years, but that hopefully means my nephew won't have to if he doesn't want.

It's likely that it will be far worse than that. But hey, it's the Gen Xers and Gen Yers who will be picking up the tab for the Baby Boomers and their credit card government mentality. The govt will bankrupt itself making sure the Boomers get their SS checks and screw everyone else.
My soul was removed to make room for all this sarcasm.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:04PM
mapaghimagsik at 4:15PM, Nov. 28, 2007
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Stock Market was up 331 today. Has very little to do with employment, I know.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
kyupol at 6:11PM, Nov. 28, 2007
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mapaghimagsik
Or Spain. Jeebus, what is it about you folks that make you just desperately need to pwn the Philippines?

The Philippines wouldnt been pwned if not for the city state system it had back then.

Originally visayas and mindanao were part of the sri-vijaya empire. When that empire collapsed, the visayas decided to break up into city states and mindanao embraced islam.

The Spanish entered through Visayas. It wasnt Magellan's men vs Lapu-Lapu (who isnt even in Western history books while Magellan IS even if he was pwned by Lapu-Lapu. Is it because he isn't white?!?). Anyway it was Magellan allied with Humabon and Zula vs Lapu Lapu. It was like 3vs1 in starcraft and Lapu-Lapu pwned them all!!!

Meanwhile in Luzon, it was the Tagalogs who were the dominant force. No wonder Tagalog is understood in most of the Philippines. As it is customary for a conqueror to force their culture on the conquered.

But if the Philippines had an existing imperial power back then that encompassed the whole archipelago, I think it would have taken harder for the Philippines to be conquered.

Mindanao though was the most stubborn region and was never fully controlled by the Spanish, Japanese, and Americans. Up to now they are holding their ground against a superior-equipped AFP (Armed Forces of the Philippines).



Though in this day and age, military power seems out of fashion.

To ‘conquer’ nations nowadays means extending one's influence to other nations, the best ways are:

- economic dominance
- change its demographics
- propaganda

Military power doesnt really cut it in the long run. The reason why the European powers stopped their empires is because they cant maintain it. It costs money to maintain armies to keep putting down insurgencies that will keep on popping back up no matter what.



NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:25PM
TitanOne at 6:23PM, Nov. 28, 2007
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DAJB
kyupol
kyupol
Look at the countries like Iraq, Egypt, Greece, Italy, Spain, Brazil, Japan, Indonesia, etc. They were once mighty powers. :)
Hey, don't forget us Brits! We're entitled to wallow in past glories, too!

Oooh, good point. In police state and economic terms, I hear you guys are even worse off than us.

On the upside, however, you at least have a Dear Leader who reads newspapers, and is capable of speaking in complete sentences.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:30PM
kyupol at 6:25PM, Nov. 28, 2007
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Going back to the topic, here are my predictions for the USA (which may sound outrageous/stupid/crazy/the product of science fiction crap):

CIVIL WAR
I wont be surprised if a civil war happens in the USA. It will fragment into different states with refugees pouring into Canada (which is underpopulated btw) and Mexico.

Thats what happens after an empire breaks down. New states will form. Look at the Roman Empire which once included France, Germany, Spain, etc.

Some of these states may choose to adopt various systems of government. All would claim to be ‘democratic’ but some may become monarchies or theocracies.


THE RISE OF COMMUNISM
The inequality between the rich and poor in the USA is very very large as of now. There are the ultra rich and the ultra poor. Companies like to layoff and outsource to get cheap labour.

Sooner or later, the masses will be fed up. Countries where there is a huge rich-poor gap is a breeding ground for communism. In the future, once the memories of the cold war have died out, communism will re-emerge in the USA. It was capitalism that created communism in the first place. lol

Perhaps the government will be overthrown to be replaced by some commie dictatorship. With technology, the Big Brother will be a reality. That is in the long run though but in the short run, the lives of the people will be better. Communism WORKS WELL in the first few years.

I've read North Korean defector stories and the ones who experienced life in South Korea, USA, and North Korea have said that North Korea in the 60s-80s was a better place to live in than modern day South Korea and USA. And claims of Kim Il Sung being the benevolent dictator while his son Kim Jong Il fucked it all up.

NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:25PM

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