Debate and Discussion

The Economy Is Going Well, Isn't It?
TitanOne at 6:29PM, Nov. 28, 2007
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Mister Mxyzptlk
trevoramueller
Did anyone question this when we elected a guy who's bankrupt two oil companies before taking office?

The problem with your point is this is not all Bush's fault. Sure he could have done some extreme things with the economy to try and slow the process down or even reverse it but those things would have been too scary for the average monkey on the street. This is just the end of a trend that was started back with the creation of the Federal Reserve System and taking the dollar off the gold standard.

First law of currency: Fiat money only moves in one direction, value-wise: Down.

last edited on July 14, 2011 4:30PM
horseboy at 6:35PM, Nov. 28, 2007
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kyupol
Going back to the topic, here are my predictions for the USA (which may sound outrageous/stupid/crazy/the product of science fiction crap):

CIVIL WAR
I wont be surprised if a civil war happens in the USA. It will fragment into different states with refugees pouring into Canada (which is underpopulated btw) and Mexico.

Thats what happens after an empire breaks down. New states will form. Look at the Roman Empire which once included France, Germany, Spain, etc.

Some of these states may choose to adopt various systems of government. All would claim to be ‘democratic’ but some may become monarchies or theocracies.

Actually, a couple of years ago, I don't think enough people realized how close we were to this. The belt way REALLY needs to wake up, or else it'll be bloody.
There is no such word as “alot”. “A lot” is two words.
Voltaire
Never seek for happiness, it will merely allude the seeker. Never strive for knowledge, it is beyond man's scope. Never think, for in though lies all the ills of mankind. The wise man, like the rat, the crocodile, the fly, merely fulfills his natural function.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:50PM
Mister Mxyzptlk at 7:35PM, Nov. 28, 2007
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kyupol
There are the ultra rich and the ultra poor.

Come on, the “poor” in the US have Cable TV and DVD players. You want REAL poverty, look further south. They have the kind of poverty where you go to bed hungry more often then not, the kind of poverty where you live in a shack with no water, heat, power or sewage system. If you are starving in the US you have to be real stupid. With Food Stamps, WIC, AFDC and the hundreds of private charity food banks out there it takes an effort to go hungry.
My soul was removed to make room for all this sarcasm.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:04PM
imshard at 8:00PM, Nov. 28, 2007
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I choose to make a rebuttal,

Money does go up in value, problem is its reliant on too many factors.

The roman empire devolved as a result of societal breakdown and miniature ice age, the dark ages ensued and it took hundreds of years for civilization to re-emerge.

Civil war is unlikely to say the least. This country has its problems but open conflict is unlikely to say the least. There is a BIG difference between civil unrest and civil war. Politicians have expertly manipulated and steered the country since the end of the real civil war. Its not in their interest to push their contrived rivalries over the edge. The masses are just pawns to them. If unrest turns to anarchy they'll hit the brakes faster than a fat man can down a Little Debbie.

Communism is unpopular. The poor want what the rich have. They don't want to give away everything they earn to the State. The US has had recessions, depressions and and class rivalry, repeatedly. We recovered and like a pendulum the situation will swing the other way. Really, even Americans can tolerate much more. The polarization of wealth will get much worse before anything real happens.

Before anybody says I'm blind to the facts, a blind optimist, or hopelessly pro-American, let me cut you off by saying “Go to hell”. Nothing is impossible, and the USA is just as vulnerable to the mentioned problems. Other problems are more likely to cause the downfall of the world's oldest “democracy”.

As for the actual thread topic, the economy is doing fine. We enjoy deriding CEOs for taking away too big a paycheck. What we don't realize is the only reason they can get away with it is because their companies are making bigger profits. If that weren't true we'd be having an Enron every day instead of every year. Whether they deserve it is another matter.

Mister Mxyzptlk
kyupol
There are the ultra rich and the ultra poor.

Come on, the “poor” in the US have Cable TV and DVD players. You want REAL poverty, look further south. They have the kind of poverty where you go to bed hungry more often then not, the kind of poverty where you live in a shack with no water, heat, power or sewage system. If you are starving in the US you have to be real stupid. With Food Stamps, WIC, AFDC and the hundreds of private charity food banks out there it takes an effort to go hungry.

I have to reluctantly agree with that.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 12:58PM
mapaghimagsik at 8:54PM, Nov. 28, 2007
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Mister Mxyzptlk
kyupol
There are the ultra rich and the ultra poor.

Come on, the “poor” in the US have Cable TV and DVD players. You want REAL poverty, look further south. They have the kind of poverty where you go to bed hungry more often then not, the kind of poverty where you live in a shack with no water, heat, power or sewage system. If you are starving in the US you have to be real stupid. With Food Stamps, WIC, AFDC and the hundreds of private charity food banks out there it takes an effort to go hungry.

People might not be as poor as the “grease people” in the Phils, but still, there's people who go hungry. Its not that they're stupid. Some of them are simply not functional. They are the very least of us, and how we treat them speaks volumes about the US as a country.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
imshard at 9:20PM, Nov. 28, 2007
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mapaghimagsik
People might not be as poor as the “grease people” in the Phils, but still, there's people who go hungry. Its not that they're stupid. Some of them are simply not functional. They are the very least of us, and how we treat them speaks volumes about the US as a country.

eh? We still live in the wealthiest nation in the world. By that I'm not just referring to overall capitol. The percentage of destitute, homeless, and penniless in this country is tiny. The state and federal governments provide welfare to anybody. What are you talking about “how we treat them?” What monstrosities are you referring to? How many poor and mentally deficient persons do you think are running around? When they don't have family or friends to take care of them, they go to state institutions. Despite the horror stories thats more than 80% of the world's nations would offer them.

Describe for me what demographic you're referring to so we understand what you're talking about.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 12:58PM
bobhhh at 9:34PM, Nov. 28, 2007
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kyupol
Going back to the topic, here are my predictions for the USA (which may sound outrageous/stupid/crazy/the product of science fiction crap):

CIVIL WAR
I wont be surprised if a civil war happens in the USA. It will fragment into different states with refugees pouring into Canada (which is underpopulated btw) and Mexico.

Thats what happens after an empire breaks down. New states will form. Look at the Roman Empire which once included France, Germany, Spain, etc.

Some of these states may choose to adopt various systems of government. All would claim to be ‘democratic’ but some may become monarchies or theocracies.


THE RISE OF COMMUNISM
The inequality between the rich and poor in the USA is very very large as of now. There are the ultra rich and the ultra poor. Companies like to layoff and outsource to get cheap labour.

Sooner or later, the masses will be fed up. Countries where there is a huge rich-poor gap is a breeding ground for communism. In the future, once the memories of the cold war have died out, communism will re-emerge in the USA. It was capitalism that created communism in the first place. lol

Perhaps the government will be overthrown to be replaced by some commie dictatorship. With technology, the Big Brother will be a reality. That is in the long run though but in the short run, the lives of the people will be better. Communism WORKS WELL in the first few years.

I've read North Korean defector stories and the ones who experienced life in South Korea, USA, and North Korea have said that North Korea in the 60s-80s was a better place to live in than modern day South Korea and USA. And claims of Kim Il Sung being the benevolent dictator while his son Kim Jong Il fucked it all up.



Interesting. I think the big prob with Americans is that unlike other countries, we have never rounded up rich people and stuck there decaptitated heads on pikes, displayed in the market square. There is a reason why other civilized countries have socialized medicine and better welfare than us, they remember history and so they're frightened of pissed off poor people.

We need a guillotine party here for the Kenneth Lays and Dick Cheneys of America. That's my next prediction. Unrest and bloodshed.

Actually more of a dream than a forecast, sadly.
My name is Bob and I approved this signature.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:29AM
imshard at 9:56PM, Nov. 28, 2007
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bobhhh
Interesting. I think the big prob with Americans is that unlike other countries, we have never rounded up rich people and stuck there decaptitated heads on pikes, displayed in the market square. There is a reason why other civilized countries have socialized medicine and better welfare than us, they remember history and so they're frightened of pissed off poor people.

We need a guillotine party here for the Kenneth Lays and Dick Cheneys of America. That's my next prediction. Unrest and bloodshed.

Actually more of a dream than a forecast, sadly.

Ironically that point of view is the one most likely to cause a civil war.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 12:58PM
Mister Mxyzptlk at 7:12AM, Nov. 29, 2007
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bobhhh
Interesting. I think the big prob with Americans is that unlike other countries, we have never rounded up rich people and stuck there decaptitated heads on pikes, displayed in the market square.

Yea, what a wonderful incentive to succeed. “Gee mommy, someday I want to become wealthy enough so they stick MY head on a pike!” Utterly brilliant.

bobhhh
There is a reason why other civilized countries have socialized medicine and better welfare than us, they remember history and so they're frightened of pissed off poor people.

Yes, so wonderful when we let the losers dictate economic policy. What a great idea. Hey, how about asking the kids who got failing grades in school to figure out some of he most vexing scientific problems of our time? After all, if it works in economics it must work in science too!

bobhhh
We need a guillotine party here for the Kenneth Lays and Dick Cheneys of America. That's my next prediction. Unrest and bloodshed.

Class envy. Ah, I love it.

Eat The Rich
There's only one thing that they are good for
Eat The Rich
Take one bite now - come back for more
Eat The Rich
I gotta get this off my chest
Eat The Rich
Take one bite now - spit out the rest
My soul was removed to make room for all this sarcasm.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:04PM
CharleyHorse at 9:55AM, Nov. 29, 2007
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Thanks to giving the wealthy in this nation a tax break while financing two unending wars we are now something like NINE trillion dollars in debt and getting deeper in debt on a daily basis.

The dollar has been radically devalued.

Our big and moderate sized companies are doing well, but unless you already have entry into the middle class economy and job pool you are going to be working for Burger King wages.

In general jobs are going over seas.

Our wealthy are getting wealthier, our middle class is stagnating economically, and our poor are getting poorer. As for the insane or mentally ill in our nation, normally they go to prison if there isn't a family member to take care of them. Few, if any states, any longer maintain mental health and permanent care facilities that can or will handle more than a tiny, tiny number of mentally ill people.

Fox News and Drudge Report and Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity are not GOOD places to get your economic and health of the nation news.

Our economy? Consider the following; Nine trillion in debt and counting, New Orleans wiped off the rolls so far as a productive economy is concerned , the housing market is going belly up, there are no longer good paying lower class jobs available, and middle class jobs generally suffer from pay stagnation. ONLY the nation's wealthier are currently doing fine and rolling in money.

The future? Can you say naaaaaasty and long term economic recession?

last edited on July 14, 2011 11:40AM
horseboy at 10:35AM, Nov. 29, 2007
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mapaghimagsik
People might not be as poor as the “grease people” in the Phils, but still, there's people who go hungry. Its not that they're stupid. Some of them are simply not functional. They are the very least of us, and how we treat them speaks volumes about the US as a country.
We have a joke around here about how can you tell the difference between someone who works and someone on welfare. The people that work own horses. This implies that that's the only difference in our two standards of living. Nobody around here goes hungry. The closest places that you could find REAL poverty in America would be the Rezes.
There is no such word as “alot”. “A lot” is two words.
Voltaire
Never seek for happiness, it will merely allude the seeker. Never strive for knowledge, it is beyond man's scope. Never think, for in though lies all the ills of mankind. The wise man, like the rat, the crocodile, the fly, merely fulfills his natural function.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:50PM
imshard at 11:09AM, Nov. 29, 2007
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The national is currently:
9.139 trillion dollars and growing

subtract the amounts held by the Social Security and other federal trust funds and the net debt held by the public is roughly five trillion bucks or roughly $30,000 per citizen.

This is the Highest its been since the Eisenhower administration.
And having worked for a company with offices in New Orleans I know how much that Katrina cost us.

Pessimism is unhelpful. Instead of helping the economy take a nose dive from its relative stability we can build up. Me? I propose enforced maximum wage ratios for persons earning in excess of 1 million dollars a year. (i.e. a ceo cannot earn more than 10 dollars to every 1 dollar his employees earn) That way a person can still earn ridiculous amounts of money, but his employees share in the wealth and as such flushes the consumer market with cash instead of the current trickle down method of distributing wealth.
Don't be a stick in the mud traditionalist! Support global warming!

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last edited on July 14, 2011 12:58PM
bobhhh at 11:13AM, Nov. 29, 2007
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horseboy
mapaghimagsik
People might not be as poor as the “grease people” in the Phils, but still, there's people who go hungry. Its not that they're stupid. Some of them are simply not functional. They are the very least of us, and how we treat them speaks volumes about the US as a country.
We have a joke around here about how can you tell the difference between someone who works and someone on welfare. The people that work own horses. This implies that that's the only difference in our two standards of living. Nobody around here goes hungry. The closest places that you could find REAL poverty in America would be the Rezes.

That's a bunch of arrogant crap. I used to live in Michigan, and let me tell you about people who worked every goddam day of their lives and then their jobs just dissappeared. Not everybody who is poor is lazy. If you don't believe there is a top down enforced class system here then you are either lying or delusional.

Poor folks are punished for working hard with low pay and pitiful benefits. Rich people ar rewarded for wrecking major corporations and bilking their employees with golden parachutes…oh and horses.
My name is Bob and I approved this signature.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:29AM
horseboy at 11:19AM, Nov. 29, 2007
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bobhhh
That's a bunch of arrogant crap. I used to live in Michigan, and let me tell you about people who worked every god dam day of their lives and then their jobs just disappeared. Not everybody who is poor is lazy. If you don't believe there is a top down enforced class system here then you are either lying or delusional.

Poor folks are punished for working hard with low pay and pitiful benefits. Rich people ar rewarded for wrecking major corporations and bilking their employees with golden parachutes…oh and horses.
First off, did you check the links at the end, where it lists our per capita and how we barely missed being off the lowest 100 poorest counties? Secondly yes, I have seen it when I lived in Baltimore. I don't see it out here. Therefore I consider it to be more a problem with Urban living than the country as a whole. We tend to be rather Candide around these parts.
There is no such word as “alot”. “A lot” is two words.
Voltaire
Never seek for happiness, it will merely allude the seeker. Never strive for knowledge, it is beyond man's scope. Never think, for in though lies all the ills of mankind. The wise man, like the rat, the crocodile, the fly, merely fulfills his natural function.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:50PM
bobhhh at 1:54PM, Nov. 29, 2007
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Mister Mxyzptlk
bobhhh
Interesting. I think the big prob with Americans is that unlike other countries, we have never rounded up rich people and stuck there decaptitated heads on pikes, displayed in the market square.

Yea, what a wonderful incentive to succeed. “Gee mommy, someday I want to become wealthy enough so they stick MY head on a pike!” Utterly brilliant.

bobhhh
There is a reason why other civilized countries have socialized medicine and better welfare than us, they remember history and so they're frightened of pissed off poor people.

Yes, so wonderful when we let the losers dictate economic policy. What a great idea. Hey, how about asking the kids who got failing grades in school to figure out some of he most vexing scientific problems of our time? After all, if it works in economics it must work in science too!

bobhhh
We need a guillotine party here for the Kenneth Lays and Dick Cheneys of America. That's my next prediction. Unrest and bloodshed.

Class envy. Ah, I love it.

Eat The Rich
There's only one thing that they are good for
Eat The Rich
Take one bite now - come back for more
Eat The Rich
I gotta get this off my chest
Eat The Rich
Take one bite now - spit out the rest

Well add poetry to the list of things you suk at.
My name is Bob and I approved this signature.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:29AM
bobhhh at 1:55PM, Nov. 29, 2007
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imshard
The national is currently:
9.139 trillion dollars and growing

subtract the amounts held by the Social Security and other federal trust funds and the net debt held by the public is roughly five trillion bucks or roughly $30,000 per citizen.

This is the Highest its been since the Eisenhower administration.
And having worked for a company with offices in New Orleans I know how much that Katrina cost us.

Pessimism is unhelpful. Instead of helping the economy take a nose dive from its relative stability we can build up. Me? I propose enforced maximum wage ratios for persons earning in excess of 1 million dollars a year. (i.e. a ceo cannot earn more than 10 dollars to every 1 dollar his employees earn) That way a person can still earn ridiculous amounts of money, but his employees share in the wealth and as such flushes the consumer market with cash instead of the current trickle down method of distributing wealth.

Average??? You're forgetting that 1 percent of the population hordes 85 percent of the wealth in this country.
My name is Bob and I approved this signature.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:29AM
imshard at 3:11PM, Nov. 29, 2007
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bobhhh
Average??? You're forgetting that 1 percent of the population hordes 85 percent of the wealth in this country.

And where did I disagree with you?
Where did I even mention averages?
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last edited on July 14, 2011 12:58PM
mapaghimagsik at 3:53PM, Nov. 29, 2007
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imshard
mapaghimagsik
People might not be as poor as the “grease people” in the Phils, but still, there's people who go hungry. Its not that they're stupid. Some of them are simply not functional. They are the very least of us, and how we treat them speaks volumes about the US as a country.

eh? We still live in the wealthiest nation in the world.


We're also the most indebted. I don't know if when you use “net worth” (assets less liabilities) that that statement still stands. Curiously, the White house has discontinued the use of national net worth as a number since 1996 it seems, so it is no longer tracked.

By that I'm not just referring to overall capitol. The percentage of destitute, homeless, and penniless in this country is tiny.

Source?

Here's a document I could find that talks about destitute elderly. It doesn't address your measure, but is interesting the reasons for some of the destitute elderly.

But again we bandy about terms. If having nothing at all is your definition, I see your point, since even having clothing means you're not destitute. I tend to take a higher view of it, and just look at those in poverty, for which there is a formal definition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_States

Hope that helps.

The state and federal governments provide welfare to anybody. What are you talking about “how we treat them?” What monstrosities are you referring to?


http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5298034
http://www.familyhomelessness.org/pdf/fact_children.pdf
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0923-04.htm

If we take your statement that we are the wealthiest nation ever as fact, what's up with this? We could afford to fix it.



last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
imshard at 4:41PM, Nov. 29, 2007
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go outside look around and then honestly tell me if it looks like this in your neighborhood.

Don't be a stick in the mud traditionalist! Support global warming!

Tech Support: The Comic!! Updates Somedays!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:58PM
kyupol at 4:42PM, Nov. 29, 2007
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My so-called ‘predictions’ are no way etched in stone.

If USA as a nation will change for the good of the people, those two horror scenarios have less chance to happen and would only be found in a video game or a movie.

—–

Anyway another scenario:

3) A MAJOR ECONOMIC RECESSION – THE BEGINNING OF A WAR

- With the declining value of the US dollar as well as its debt, increasing poverty, etc, the economy of the USA will eventually go to a great depression.

Because of the depression, the USA will need an excuse to start a war. Perhaps a war can allow them to seize the assets of another country in order to recover their economy. Perhaps start a war with Iran? As the USA media seems to be hyping this and focuses less on North Korea.

What is the point of attacking North Korea? If NK has enough military power to retaliate and destroy South Korea and parts of Japan in the event of a war. With a possible 50,000 US casualties. Fine. Remove Kim Jong Il and you have a ravaged country with no oil.

But with Iran? Or Syria? Those nations are sitting on oil. Now time to create a provocation from either nation. Or stage a conspiracy like the one in Vietnam. Just make up a scenario to make Iran look like the aggressor. That way, war can be justified.

While Iran's possible retaliation could be Israel and US bases in Iraq and Afghanistan, the gains can possibly offset the American military losses. Doesnt matter if they're fighting a fanatical Iranian army with good contacts all over the middle east.

Wreck Iran with tactical nukes and cruise missiles. The oil is sitting under the country so its all gonna be fine.


And meanwhile, China and Russia will reveal their true colors. Perhaps a possible seizure of Taiwan. China may invade Japan, NK will invade SK again, and the Philippines may be included in China's expansion list. Though the Philippines is the most equipped for a loooong guerilla war because of its jungle environment and every foot soldier in its army is trained for that. (I did compulsory training and I got a taste of being STARVED. What more for the regular units who are more trained how to fight on an empty stomach or low food supply).

And the USA since its tied down in the middle east will be unable to deploy its forces to the Asian front. Perhaps Iranian-backed terror cells who are more efficient than al quaeda will blow up a few buildings and bridges in the USA or storm civilian centers.

China and Russia meanwhile will invade the USA through the Pacific. And they'd reveal they have an alliance with Iran. While Iran terror attacks US facilities, Russia and China will attack with its conventional forces.

Outnumbered and outgunned, USA will face final defeat. But US generals wont accept defeat and could use nuclear weapons. Hit targets like Moscow, Beijing, Tehran, Pyongyang, and all other stuff.

And there will be nuclear winter. The world will no longer be able to support life.

Or maybe after this great war, people will once again form bands or factions and take control of their own fiefdoms.


NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:25PM
horseboy at 4:58PM, Nov. 29, 2007
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kyupol
My so-called ‘predictions’ are no way etched in stone.

If USA as a nation will change for the good of the people, those two horror scenarios have less chance to happen and would only be found in a video game or a movie.

—–

Anyway another scenario:

3) A MAJOR ECONOMIC RECESSION – THE BEGINNING OF A WAR

It's a little too American-centric. “When Wall Street sneezes, the Nikkei catches cold.” If/when we go down, it'll take the rest of the industrialized countries with it. China can't attack America militarily, we're worth too much to them as customers. I certainly see them expanding into the rest of Asia, however.

Europe isn't in any better shape. There's many that claim that the European Commonwealth idea was just to get Britian and a few of the stronger economies there to try and pull Ireland, and several of the lower ones up. It's met with limited success. Of course, as convoluted and incestuous as Europe is, it's hard to tell exactly how it'd go down.
There is no such word as “alot”. “A lot” is two words.
Voltaire
Never seek for happiness, it will merely allude the seeker. Never strive for knowledge, it is beyond man's scope. Never think, for in though lies all the ills of mankind. The wise man, like the rat, the crocodile, the fly, merely fulfills his natural function.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:50PM
kyupol at 5:15PM, Nov. 29, 2007
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imshard
go outside look around and then honestly tell me if it looks like this in your neighborhood.



That is a manila slum area. A poor neighborhood. But have you seen this:

Makati:


A more affluent neighborhood:



A typical shopping mall:



The Philippines and any other country on earth has its share of rich and poor.

The reason why the slums were created in the first place is because of the wide rich-poor gap since the Philippine system is modelled after the USA. Once that rich-poor gap widened enough, communism was born.

In the 80s, during the years of Ferdinand Marcos' dictatorship, the communist insurgency was at its peak strength and was more active.

But now in a more progressive era, the communists are either forming their own breakaway factions of the original New People's Army or just simply defecting to the government in the hundreds.

The communists nowadays cannot anymore engage the AFP (Philippine Army) in direct combat. They can only manage to overrun remote police outposts or areas guarded by CAFGUS (the militia unit of the Philippine government. They're not as skillful as the regular units). Direct combat with the AFP only gets them slaughtered.

That is why now, the commies can only use youtube and blogspot to spread their propaganda that is almost useless. Its only a matter of years before communism dies out while the country progresses.

As Filipinos are learning from the past mistakes. Back in 2001, the minimum wage was PhP 250 per day (about $5 US). Now its at least PhP 400 which is a large percentage of a salary increase for the minimum wage earner. Corruption is more and more denounced. And the Philippines is on an upward rate of economic growth just like India and China but not as much.

http://www.goodnewspilipinas.com/


I forgot to add.

If you see any Filipino who disses the country and makes it appear like Mogadishu or Afghanistan, do not believe him/her/them. A negative trait of Filipinos is that they love to look for greener pastures based on mere rumors alone.

Alot of Filipinos like to talk about Canada and USA being paradise. Once rumors spread, it gets accepted as TRUTH. They never ever even thought about the CONS in these nations like the racism and sexism. As well as the bad morality (at least different from the average Filipino Catholic's mindset).

There are stories of Filipino immigrants who come to North America only to have their hearts broken. To get an idea, lets pretend you are a decently paid Filipino professional. The type who can afford 2 condos and 2 SUVs in Philippine prices. Once coming to Canada or USA, live in a basement apartment and barely make ends meet as your credentials are not accepted properly.

That is one of the truths that the Philippine immigration department likes to hide from the people. As migration to the USA or Canada is big business for them. lol!
NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:25PM
imshard at 6:10PM, Nov. 29, 2007
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wow, nice country. I didn't mean to say the Philippines are poor I just needed a picture of an impoverished neighborhood. Such places are rare to non-existent in the USA. I should know, I've seen the almost all the major cities on this continent in person. And a large number of the medium and small cities in the USA as well. (I travel… a lot.)

I agree with Kyupol, you can find opulence in any country. The difference is the US has a higher standard of living and the US poverty line is more valuable than most nations.

Oh yeah, I have a number in mind but tell me, if 85% percent of the America's wealth is held by 1% of the population how much is the remaining 15% worth that is owned by the other 99%?
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last edited on July 14, 2011 12:58PM
horseboy at 6:12PM, Nov. 29, 2007
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kyupol
That is a manila slum area. A poor neighborhood. But have you seen this:

Here I was thinking it looks a lot like parts of Mexico City in Man on Fire. Pretty sure our points are that that level of poverty doesn't exist in the US. For starters, there's a HUGE mass of code violations in there. That's the real crushing poverty. The poverty we have in America is much like our beer, lite and watered down.
There is no such word as “alot”. “A lot” is two words.
Voltaire
Never seek for happiness, it will merely allude the seeker. Never strive for knowledge, it is beyond man's scope. Never think, for in though lies all the ills of mankind. The wise man, like the rat, the crocodile, the fly, merely fulfills his natural function.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:50PM
CharleyHorse at 5:24AM, Nov. 30, 2007
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I love it when a person asserts that slums and downright dangerous areas in the United States do not exist or are exceedingly rare. This is particularly interesting when there are residents of any large city who know better than to go on a car tour of their fair city and commit the tragic error of breaking down in the wrong section of the city. One wonders just how much those peculiarly effective rose-colored glasses cost and if they also serve the owner as ersatz body armor should he or she walk into the wrong neighborhood at the wrong time of day or night.

You want anecdotal details? I spent a decade working at night in a mighty impoverished and bloody damn dangerous section of a major southern city in the United States and to this day I am amazed that I lived through the experience. There are plenty of slums in the U.S. of A and the the residents are impoverished and some people do die during the heat of summer because they cannot afford to cool their residence and do die during the bitter winters because they cannot afford to heat their abodes.

There's plenty of hunger in this nation. EVER visited the food pantry of a major city and discover just how frequently they have to beg for enough to keep the homeless from starving?

Psssst, sometimes it's even worse in small town USA because it's a bit easier to hide or to ignore what's happening and the institutionalized differences between those who have everything and those people born into poverty and have next to nothing.

The United States simply does a wonderful job of creating the appearance of having nearly zero starving, homeless, impoverished people eating out of garbage cans, but then we are damn good at packaging illusions, so good in fact that some people can even visit nearly every major city in the United States and manage NOT to see what is there to be seen. Just how much do those rose-colored glasses cost anyway?
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:40AM
imshard at 6:22AM, Nov. 30, 2007
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CharleyHorse
I love it when a person asserts that slums and downright dangerous areas in the United States do not exist or are exceedingly rare. This is particularly interesting when there are residents of any large city who know better than to go on a car tour of their fair city and commit the tragic error of breaking down in the wrong section of the city. One wonders just how much those peculiarly effective rose-colored glasses cost and if they also serve the owner as ersatz body armor should he or she walk into the wrong neighborhood at the wrong time of day or night.

You want anecdotal details? I spent a decade working at night in a mighty impoverished and bloody damn dangerous section of a major southern city in the United States and to this day I am amazed that I lived through the experience. There are plenty of slums in the U.S. of A and the the residents are impoverished and some people do die during the heat of summer because they cannot afford to cool their residence and do die during the bitter winters because they cannot afford to heat their abodes.

There's plenty of hunger in this nation. EVER visited the food pantry of a major city and discover just how frequently they have to beg for enough to keep the homeless from starving?

Psssst, sometimes it's even worse in small town USA because it's a bit easier to hide or to ignore what's happening and the institutionalized differences between those who have everything and those people born into poverty and have next to nothing.

The United States simply does a wonderful job of creating the appearance of having nearly zero starving, homeless, impoverished people eating out of garbage cans, but then we are damn good at packaging illusions, so good in fact that some people can even visit nearly every major city in the United States and manage NOT to see what is there to be seen. Just how much do those rose-colored glasses cost anyway?

I used to be a recipient of those institutions and food pantries. I've called those exceedingly dangerous and poor areas home. I'm not proud of it but there it is. Growing up in that as a cripple is not easy. I still keep a gun next to my bed just so I can sleep at night. Yet I'm not bitter about it. The fact that care and assistance is freely provided to the residents of those areas speaks volumes to me about the wealth and charity of this country. I also know that in the poorest areas of any US city only a few are truly suffering like the beggars and poor of other nations. At least we have free food pantries and shelters. Illusions? Go to hell. Next to nothing is still something. Poverty is not as easily hidden as you maintain. I recognize it wherever I go. The very fact that the impoverished people who can't afford AC and a space heater even have a place to call home is a step above the tin shacks and dirt streets of the third world or the ghettos of Europe and Asia. Take your pessimism somewhere else.
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CharleyHorse at 7:45AM, Nov. 30, 2007
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Shall we step this down and discover the cut off point for charity and compassion? Let's see now, if you have anything approaching a roof over your head and something just above Alpo to eat you are doing well and should bow down and worship the wealthy in your nation for allowing you to live in such munificent conditions while they drink champaign and enjoy - most of them - their INHERITED wealth.

Absolutely wonderful and HOW DARE people living in such conditions have any gripe with the system?

I also love the fantasy that anyone impoverished can waltz right into some help organization and be fed and clothed and receive free medical care. Funny thing, though, if you actually walk into those neighborhoods - don't forget your body armor or body guards – and interview a hundred residents you will discover that the numbers of residents actually receiving such aid is mysteriously, shockingly low. I wonder why? Again, this nation is fantastic at generating the illusion that we have no serious problems in that area to speak of.

But, let's keep stepping it on down. Compared to the third world slums, by golly, our peasants live like kings and queens. On the other hand, compared to certain other nations, the typical third world peasant lives like kings and queens and so they, too, have absolutely nothing legitimate to bitch about. They should merely be grateful that their masters allow them to live, after all.

Step it down further – isn't his fun in that we have yet to find anyone deserving of compassion or help or even the opportunities that are so much a part and parcel of middle and upper class lifestyles the world over? There are some few areas of this world where peasants fight over warm grates over which to feel the life giving warmth floating upwards or conversely huddle beneath tin garbage can tops just to keep some of the wet off their heads and yet, and yet even they have things just wonderfully hunky-dory compared to places where war is ripping through on a routine basis.

So, when you boil it all down, realists are pessimists and those rose-colored glasses of the “Praise for the status quo” optimists show things as they SHOULD be. So if you have ever had to dumpster dive in order to feed yourself, be grateful that you had a dumpster conveniently provided by your lords and masters. Oh wait a minute, in some cities in the United States, desperate people are now being jailed if caught dumpster diving, because – after all – they are misusing private property and causing an unsightly appearance and the ILLUSION that people in said cities could be so desperate when, after all, there is plenty to be had by one and all.

Heck; thanks much for clearing all that up for me.

last edited on July 14, 2011 11:40AM
imshard at 10:01AM, Nov. 30, 2007
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CharleyHorse
Shall we step this down and discover the cut off point for charity and compassion? Let's see now, if you have anything approaching a roof over your head and something just above Alpo to eat you are doing well and should bow down and worship the wealthy in your nation for allowing you to live in such munificent conditions while they drink champaign and enjoy - most of them - their INHERITED wealth.

Absolutely wonderful and HOW DARE people living in such conditions have any gripe with the system?

I also love the fantasy that anyone impoverished can waltz right into some help organization and be fed and clothed and receive free medical care. Funny thing, though, if you actually walk into those neighborhoods - don't forget your body armor or body guards – and interview a hundred residents you will discover that the numbers of residents actually receiving such aid is mysteriously, shockingly low. I wonder why? Again, this nation is fantastic at generating the illusion that we have no serious problems in that area to speak of.

But, let's keep stepping it on down. Compared to the third world slums, by golly, our peasants live like kings and queens. On the other hand, compared to certain other nations, the typical third world peasant lives like kings and queens and so they, too, have absolutely nothing legitimate to bitch about. They should merely be grateful that their masters allow them to live, after all.

Step it down further – isn't his fun in that we have yet to find anyone deserving of compassion or help or even the opportunities that are so much a part and parcel of middle and upper class lifestyles the world over? There are some few areas of this world where peasants fight over warm grates over which to feel the life giving warmth floating upwards or conversely huddle beneath tin garbage can tops just to keep some of the wet off their heads and yet, and yet even they have things just wonderfully hunky-dory compared to places where war is ripping through on a routine basis.

So, when you boil it all down, realists are pessimists and those rose-colored glasses of the “Praise for the status quo” optimists show things as they SHOULD be. So if you have ever had to dumpster dive in order to feed yourself, be grateful that you had a dumpster conveniently provided by your lords and masters. Oh wait a minute, in some cities in the United States, desperate people are now being jailed if caught dumpster diving, because – after all – they are misusing private property and causing an unsightly appearance and the ILLUSION that people in said cities could be so desperate when, after all, there is plenty to be had by one and all.

Heck; thanks much for clearing all that up for me.

Your bitterness is putting a bad taste in my mouth. The status quo sucks. Congress wastes my tax dollars on pet projects and anytime I try to earn more money or improve my standard of living they raise my taxes ridiculously. The rest of my family lives in poverty and I have to support them. From your tone I would almost think you grew up poor too, but more likely you're some just some 3rd to middle-class workman who made nothing of himself and feels the world owes him something.

Of course the poor have something to bitch about, they're poor and the system is designed to keep them poor. Yet its not like the rich sit around thinking up new ways to make them stay poor. They're busy being caught up in their own little worlds.

And how would you know how hard it is to get aid? Have you ever had to give up your dignity and ask for a handout? Its one of the worst things a person has to do in life: Admit that they need help. It breaks your spirit, tears you up inside. Even so city rescue missions saved my life and fed me. Limits on charity, Bah! Having brittle bones from malnutrition teaches you exactly how valuable even a little bit of food is.
Take your conceited opinions and attitude then stuff them.
Don't be a stick in the mud traditionalist! Support global warming!

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last edited on July 14, 2011 12:58PM
CharleyHorse at 10:25AM, Nov. 30, 2007
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imshard, tsk, tsk, tsk. From what you've revealed about your background, I could easily match you woeful story for woeful story. The differences between us is that I do not swallow the bilge that it's all for the best and that things will get better if your just don't pick at them.

I've been on the bottom in this nation and I've dove in dumpsters for my meals, and you know something, today I have to interract with very wealthy people, and I KNOW just what they are like and how they got their money and how they keep it and I know that most of them really do deserve to roast in hell; but hey, that's just me and my take on things.

Had I to do things all over again under the same circumstances I would love to be the type of person who grins all the time and thanks the masters for what little they let flop down to the bottom of the pile. But we are what we are. I'm a realist. It helps that I've really been through several varieties of hell in my life, too. Or should that be, it doesn't help?

Life is good in this nation IF you are born into the middle class or blessed with just the right mind-set that you can force your way into the middle class despite the low socio-economic start in life. If you are wealthy then life is so great in this nation that you have to invent problem just to keep yourself from getting excessively bored; well that, and to justify getting all those tax breaks while our insane president sells our economic future right down the toilet.

Anyway, it's been a real blast jousting with you, and I wish you well.

last edited on July 14, 2011 11:40AM
TnTComic at 10:35AM, Nov. 30, 2007
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imshard
Yet its not like the rich sit around thinking up new ways to make them stay poor.

Maybe not, but they certainly fight tooth and nail to avoid paying taxes. Take the estate tax, for example. Little Johnny Silverspoon has never lifted a finger in his life, and stands to inherit such a sum as to remain with un-lifted finger for the rest of his life. But oh, how he will fight to avoid paying taxes on that inheritance. And what about tax shelters? Corporations thrive on the business they acquire by operating in the country, but put a P.O. box in Bermuda and call it their headquarters to avoid paying taxes. It seems that once you make a certain amount of money you think taxes are beneath you.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:31PM

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