Debate and Discussion

The Economy Is Going Well, Isn't It?
bobhhh at 6:54AM, Jan. 11, 2008
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CharleyHorse
That's cute Imshard. Is there any other republican generated bogeyman issue you want to fling out on the table as promoted by one of their professional operatives?

Let's see . . . we are now nine trillion dollars in debt due to the Bush/republican leadership's borrow and spend mania. That's nine trillion dollars - NOT billions - and counting. This is HOW this nation paid for all those tax breaks for the wealthy and for two simultaneous and ongoing war ventures. We borrowed from communist china until they now partly own us, and we borrowed heavily from every other nation on earth with a pulse and a bank surplus. I call ten trillion dollars - which it will be and more - before we get Bush the criminal out of office, a substantial amount.

Ten trillion dollars of debt. That's the Bush economic legacy to this nation.

Sort of makes the traditional bogeyman scare of those EVIL BABYBOOMERS and their cost to the nation seem like chump change now, doesn't it?

What I love about republican think is that they - and their mouth pieces and apologists - take a block of people who worked hard all their lives and have done nothing but contribute to the economy and then turn them into evil incarnate just to draw attention away from the real problems and the real evils. Ten Trillion dollars of debt. Hmmmm . . . cookies!

Sort of sounds like the way Nazi Germany scapegoated using the Jews. Sort of sounds like the way the republican leadership, through Limbaugh and Hannity, O'Rielly, Coulter, and other professional propagandists working for the republican party, are currently scapegoating using illegal immigrants and, oh yes, the babyboomers.

“Look! Look Americans! Look over here . . . no, not there! Why do you always want to look at the real - er - the wrong things? Look over there, yes there! See that peacefully and productively living goat? See it?! It's evil! It's going to destr - will you STOP looking at what our other hand over here is doing in your national cookie jar?!”

As I said Imshard, cute. Next time try not to use a red herring that begins by flinging out so many patented republican propaganda bullet points and drips of republican think tank coaching.

I'm with you, but please, invoking the Nazi's always makes you sound like a demagogue. It allows people to scoff at your otherwise solid arguments. The neocons are a lot of heinous things, but I don't give them enough credit to be compared to Nazi's. If anything they resemble low class mafia hoods, and pretty short sighted ones at that.

Further I will give him credit for raising a salient point, a lot of the GAO guy says is true, but that doesn't change what you and I believe, if anything it only makes it more emphatic.
My name is Bob and I approved this signature.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:29AM
CharleyHorse at 2:07PM, Jan. 11, 2008
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Yes I know Bob, I went too far with the Nazi analogy, and I apologize to Imshard for that. I was feeling particularly cranky this morning.

Although the GAO generally does a decent job avoiding political partisan contamination I do not believe that they are entirely immune to political pressures and we know just how much pressure the White House can bring to bear on individuals and groups. I tend to take their pronouncements under advisement nowadays until I can compare it against the pronouncements of organizations that definitely are beyond the White House's reach.

The nine trillion dollar debt will probably be close to about twelve or thirteen trillion by the time that Bush is out of office. But even if for some reason it freezes at its current amount, how in the world can this nation hope to pay that off without crippling its economy?

That we have to pay it off is beyond dispute as it makes us hostage to our creditors - and not all of them particularly like us.

Well, the economic pronouncements are piling up as I type this and not a day goes by that some economic expert doesn't solemnly warn of a looming and massive recession on the near horizon. I'm not going to bother to do Imshard's research work for him but, yes, the doom and gloom economic prophets are popping up all over the place and too many of them are now spouting the ‘recession’ word to just shrug it off as alarmist remarks made for partisan political reasons.

Bush and company have economically damaged this nation and we, the citizens are going to pay the price of their incompetence or outright deliberate ‘take the money and run’ policies for many, many years to come.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:40AM
imshard at 7:43PM, Jan. 11, 2008
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CharleyHorse
Yes I know Bob, I went too far with the Nazi analogy, and I apologize to Imshard for that. I was feeling particularly cranky this morning.

Although the GAO generally does a decent job avoiding political partisan contamination I do not believe that they are entirely immune to political pressures and we know just how much pressure the White House can bring to bear on individuals and groups. I tend to take their pronouncements under advisement nowadays until I can compare it against the pronouncements of organizations that definitely are beyond the White House's reach.

The nine trillion dollar debt will probably be close to about twelve or thirteen trillion by the time that Bush is out of office. But even if for some reason it freezes at its current amount, how in the world can this nation hope to pay that off without crippling its economy?

That we have to pay it off is beyond dispute as it makes us hostage to our creditors - and not all of them particularly like us.

Well, the economic pronouncements are piling up as I type this and not a day goes by that some economic expert doesn't solemnly warn of a looming and massive recession on the near horizon. I'm not going to bother to do Imshard's research work for him but, yes, the doom and gloom economic prophets are popping up all over the place and too many of them are now spouting the ‘recession’ word to just shrug it off as alarmist remarks made for partisan political reasons.

Bush and company have economically damaged this nation and we, the citizens are going to pay the price of their incompetence or outright deliberate ‘take the money and run’ policies for many, many years to come.

Apology accepted. Look my point was you can't hold the incumbents responsible completely responsible any more than last weeks earthquakes are responsible for the position of the continents. Let alone strictly one political party. Them wascally wepubicans are not the only people who screwed up the country. You can't give a free pass to the entire opposition JUST because they happen to be the same party as you.

I wasn't targeting baby boomers or trying to target anybody with that post. I was illustrating that the true debt is $58 trillion. And finally Not all of the 9 trillion in the official National debt was generated in the last 8 years. Some of it stretches back to before the Civil War, add interest and inflation and those old debts are quite large.

Even propaganda from a think tank has some basis of fact that is whipped out of proportion. Simply dismissing evidence because it is exploited by your rivals is irresponsible. Facts simply are.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 12:58PM
bobhhh at 10:48AM, Jan. 12, 2008
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imshard
Apology accepted. Look my point was you can't hold the incumbents responsible completely responsible any more than last weeks earthquakes are responsible for the position of the continents. Let alone strictly one political party. Them wascally wepubicans are not the only people who screwed up the country. You can't give a free pass to the entire opposition JUST because they happen to be the same party as you.
You know I hear this a lot and while true, it is often used as an excuse to ditch any responsibility or effort to remedy the situation.

Fact is yes, Jr. can't be held totally responsilble for the sorry state of the economy today, that also belongs to his dad and dear Ronnie for tanking our economy in an attempt to spend the Soviets into the ground militarily. Since negotiation with the Soviets was off the table, what with them being the Evil Empire and all, we were doomeed to nearly wreck our own economy in a frenzied attempt at wrecking theirs. Worked a bit too well on both sides.

Clinton wasn't perfect, but he did do battle with the recession left in his lap by Sr. and promoted smart economic policies, except for Nafta, and promoted commerce and the internet, positioning us to realize the maximum benefit of the new digital economy. He even made meaningful peace with the Chinese, even passing them tech secrets on the sly, becuase he knew negotiation and trade were better ways to win peace and bring the Chinese into the next millenium than sabre rattling and economic isolation. The economy was roaring when Dubya took over.

And here's where you can't let him wriggle away with this “it's not all his fault” argument.

His bright idea was to ramp up military spending, cut taxes for the wealthy, relax environmental standards, relax business ethical and financial enforcement, start invading countries unilaterally(first Iraq, watch out Iran is next) and spending hundreds of billions to do so, the list goes on. Add to that his dogged refusal to get on board with the two new technologies that will ascend in the coming decades, Stgem cell research and green technology, and he has placed us on a path where other enterprising coutries will develope that ifrastucture first, and we will be buying instead of selling like we are rapidly doing with the auto industry.

I can, with clear conscience, blame that guy for his short sightedness and disregard for the well being of our country. No previous administration's actions forced him to do that.

Bush may not have made his bed, but that doesn't mean he didn't douse it with kerosene and set it on fire.
My name is Bob and I approved this signature.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:29AM

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