Debate and Discussion

the end of democracy in america
bobhhh at 2:25PM, Dec. 22, 2007
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Watch this chilling speech by Naomi Wolf.

Her main point is that there are ten tipping points that emerge as a pattern throughout history that despots engage in when they want to shut down democracy.

1. Invoke an internal and external threat and hype it.
2. Create a secret prison system that exact torture ouytside the rule of law.
3. Create a paramilitary force that can intimidate citizens.
4. Create a surveilance apparatus.
5. Arbitrarily detain and release citizens.
6. Infiltrate citizens groups with police and federal agents.
7. Target key individuals with intimidation.
8. Restrict and intimidate the press.
9. Recast criticism as espionage and dissent as treason.
10. Subvert the rule of law, or simply declare martial law.



I am not usuallly receptive to conspiracy nuts, I always think the tussle of polarized politics acts as a messy check and balance, but she makes a lot of sense.

Please tell me I'm just paranoid, because I am getting really worried.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:29AM
Kilre at 3:10PM, Dec. 22, 2007
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Let me find my tinfoil hat.

Most all of the points have been covered for many, many years. It started with the communism scare way back when–and possibly before that; my historical knowledge right now covers art more than other points of importance.

She even said herself that these things have cycled around for a while.

If anything, Ms. Wolf is just jumping on the “scare Amurca” bandwagon. Half of it's in her head; the other half is jumping to conclusions.

Woo-woo! Here comes the conspiracy train! Next stop, the FDA is an evil organization that wants to shut down small shops.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:15PM
bobhhh at 4:35PM, Dec. 22, 2007
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Kilre
Let me find my tinfoil hat.

Most all of the points have been covered for many, many years. It started with the communism scare way back when–and possibly before that; my historical knowledge right now covers art more than other points of importance.

She even said herself that these things have cycled around for a while.

If anything, Ms. Wolf is just jumping on the “scare Amurca” bandwagon. Half of it's in her head; the other half is jumping to conclusions.

Woo-woo! Here comes the conspiracy train! Next stop, the FDA is an evil organization that wants to shut down small shops.

but everything she said rings true except the political watch list at the airport. I hear all the timw that its ok to suspend the human rights of detainees becuase they are not americans. but there is no due process for people labeled enemy combatatents. and i have also heard too many people saying that if they are in gitmo, they probably are guilty of something. I find it too easy to start locking people up in connection to the war on terror with trumped up charges and make them dissappear.

after all they suspended habeas corpus for enemy combatents as well, so all you have to do is prove someone is a terror suspect, and you can hold him without charges and torture, ahem excuse me waterboard him, because he might cough up vital info that will prevent another 911.

I need more than “she's a kook” to convince me she has no valid points.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:29AM
Kilre at 5:09PM, Dec. 22, 2007
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It's all happened before.

Take a gander at the Red Scares.

I admit, the torture aspect is new–almost, for detainees back then were beaten–but everything else has been done before.

NINJA EDIT:

She's also a kook.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:15PM
lothar at 8:58PM, Dec. 22, 2007
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congratulations on finding the red pill bobhhh !!

i was gunna post about this a while ago but i figured it was a waste of time with all the starry eyed “america is still the best country evar” zombies here

now do you want to see how far the tunnel goes ??

why does aol use a triangle with a circle inside it as their logo , what could that be a referance to ???

you'll know naomi was onto something when she mysteriously suicides or dies in a car accident http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter_S_Thompson#Death
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:45PM
Kilre at 9:38PM, Dec. 22, 2007
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Anyone who thinks we're the “best country evar” is delusional. Even more delusional are those who think that this period is oh-so-traumatic and horrible and leading to the U.S. as a fascist state. Get over yourselves: it's been done before.

If you don't like it, stop whining about it and revolt.

I can't believe the conspiracy idiots are winning. I'll be sure to vote in people who will keep the nutters quiet this time 'round–now that I can actually vote.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:15PM
TH89 at 2:14AM, Dec. 23, 2007
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Kilre
Anyone who thinks we're the “best country evar” is delusional.

Pish posh!

Which one is the best evar, in your opinion?

P.S. I am of the opinion that everyone should think their country is the best country ever, unless it sucks.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:14PM
CharleyHorse at 6:17AM, Dec. 23, 2007
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Bob, the items listed by Naomi Wolf are simply the core values of the leadership of the republican party and so every once in a while there comes along the correct combination of president and legislative branch that allows these animals to push our nation to the limits of its ability to stop short of genuine fascism or to recover from having nearly walked into the same.

Reagan pushed us hard in that direction but things were not quite right for this degree of disaster in those days but with a very slightly more complacent general population snookered by twenty something years worth of 24/7/365 hard right conservative talk radio and then the later advent of the far right's Fox News organization things finally came together for the republican leadership, and G.W.Bush has very nearly succeeded where Reagan failed.

Lord knows that butt-head Bush is no genius but he knows plenty of people who are and who are cynical and self-serving enough to steer him in the far right's ideological direction. Bush being Bush, a heretofore utter failure in everything he ever did, a petulant and angry little rich boy out to show the world that he's a better man than pappa, blissfully went along with what passes for brains in his party's upper level leadership. Thus we have come perilously close to dipping into neo-fascism this time around.

I think that we will manage to halt short of actually attaining the secret neo-con dream of dreams here, but it's going to be a near thing nonetheless. The kicker though is, can this nation recover this time around?

The thing to keep firmly in mind is that the Bush Administration essentially turned the reigns of government over to a massive block of big business interests and those people and their representatives are now deeply entrenched in the halls of power within our government. They do not want to give up their power and aren't going to go quietly nor without a struggle merely because a democrat president and majority democrat controlled legislative branch are soon to replace the ultra-corrupt Bush machine.

So, this time can we recover from our reoccurring flirtation with fascism? No, I don't think so, but neither do I think that this grim prediction precludes returning to greater freedom and rights for our general citizenry. I just think that from this point onward this nation will mostly be working behind the scenes to benefit big business interests before the rights and interests of our citizenry.

I just don't think that a nation can dance with the devil for about eight years and then just go back to what it was before the evil people took office in this nation. I think there is always a price paid for such actions and that the United States is only beginning to pay that price for having let a piece of human garbage like Bush steer our nation right into the toilet.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:40AM
Mister Mxyzptlk at 6:32AM, Dec. 23, 2007
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Kilre
Even more delusional are those who think that this period is oh-so-traumatic and horrible and leading to the U.S. as a fascist state. Get over yourselves: it's been done before.

Yes, but those times it was done by Democrats who had the best intentions. This time it's a REPUBLICAN!!! OH MY FREEKING GAWD!!! They are so EVIL!!!

If all these things were being done by Gore or Kerry they wouldn't worry and in fact would be doing what FAUX News is doing now, rationalizing why these are necessary temporary measures blah blah blah…

Once one of their guys is in power, while the situation wont change, they will be the ones defending the actions and FAUX News will be the ones screaming about the impending death of our democracy.
My soul was removed to make room for all this sarcasm.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:04PM
StaceyMontgomery at 6:46AM, Dec. 23, 2007
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Mister Mxyzptlk -

I don't quite agree with you there. It seems to me that the whole “the republicans are as bad as the democrats” approach is essentially a way of saying “there are no choices.” I agree that the current republicans and democrats largely represent a consensus approach. Over the last few generations, they have agreed on most things, and used “wedge issues” to make sure that Coke and Pepsi look like two different worldviews.

(I dont mean to belittle the wedge issues here - some of them are very important!)

But I do think that most people believe that “Governments should fear the people” or “People should fear the government.” Clearly, the bulk of the Republicans and Democrats agree that people should fear the government.

Noami Wolf, it seems to me, is talking about the current form of the general trend to keep us afraid of the government. Saying “it's been done before” doesnt make it go away. The red scare hysteria was bad, and we had to work hard to get it under control. In the same way that the current situation is bad and we will have to work hard to get it under control.

The first step, of course, is getting people to talk about the problem. In fact, that's most of the steps.



last edited on July 14, 2011 3:55PM
imshard at 6:51AM, Dec. 23, 2007
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Somehow this reminds me of the Communist goals set forth by the Soviets in association with US communist party.

http://www.uhuh.com/nwo/communism/comgoals.htm
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Kilre at 7:06AM, Dec. 23, 2007
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StaceyMontgomery
Noami Wolf, it seems to me, is talking about the current form of the general trend to keep us afraid of the government. Saying “it's been done before” doesnt make it go away. The red scare hysteria was bad, and we had to work hard to get it under control. In the same way that the current situation is bad and we will have to work hard to get it under control.

The first step, of course, is getting people to talk about the problem. In fact, that's most of the steps.


Of course saying “it's been done before” doesn't make the problems go away. But the fact that we've been there, done that, and still come out only slightly worse for wear means that the people got sick of the abusive powers the U.S. government was doling out and fixed things. Slightly.

It would help matters greatly if we didn't elect people into office who want to be there in the first place. Honestly. If they want to be there, they've got ulterior motives that conflict with the interests of the nation as a whole.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:15PM
bobhhh at 10:35AM, Dec. 23, 2007
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Kilre
StaceyMontgomery
Noami Wolf, it seems to me, is talking about the current form of the general trend to keep us afraid of the government. Saying “it's been done before” doesnt make it go away. The red scare hysteria was bad, and we had to work hard to get it under control. In the same way that the current situation is bad and we will have to work hard to get it under control.

The first step, of course, is getting people to talk about the problem. In fact, that's most of the steps.


Of course saying “it's been done before” doesn't make the problems go away. But the fact that we've been there, done that, and still come out only slightly worse for wear means that the people got sick of the abusive powers the U.S. government was doling out and fixed things. Slightly.

It would help matters greatly if we didn't elect people into office who want to be there in the first place. Honestly. If they want to be there, they've got ulterior motives that conflict with the interests of the nation as a whole.

I like that, make being a representative like jury duty.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:29AM
imshard at 10:44AM, Dec. 23, 2007
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bobhhh
Kilre
StaceyMontgomery
Noami Wolf, it seems to me, is talking about the current form of the general trend to keep us afraid of the government. Saying “it's been done before” doesnt make it go away. The red scare hysteria was bad, and we had to work hard to get it under control. In the same way that the current situation is bad and we will have to work hard to get it under control.

The first step, of course, is getting people to talk about the problem. In fact, that's most of the steps.


Of course saying “it's been done before” doesn't make the problems go away. But the fact that we've been there, done that, and still come out only slightly worse for wear means that the people got sick of the abusive powers the U.S. government was doling out and fixed things. Slightly.

It would help matters greatly if we didn't elect people into office who want to be there in the first place. Honestly. If they want to be there, they've got ulterior motives that conflict with the interests of the nation as a whole.

I like that, make being a representative like jury duty.

Even better, don't pay them, put them in a sparsely furnished barracks and care for their needs until their term is done. If they can be shown to have profited in any way from their tenure have them prosecuted as traitors. THAT would make any self-respecting beady eyed greed-meister avoid office like the plague.

I may or may not be serious about that plan.
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TitanOne at 2:25PM, Dec. 23, 2007
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Mister Mxyzptlk
Kilre
Even more delusional are those who think that this period is oh-so-traumatic and horrible and leading to the U.S. as a fascist state. Get over yourselves: it's been done before.

Yes, but those times it was done by Democrats who had the best intentions. This time it's a REPUBLICAN!!! OH MY FREEKING GAWD!!! They are so EVIL!!!

If all these things were being done by Gore or Kerry they wouldn't worry and in fact would be doing what FAUX News is doing now, rationalizing why these are necessary temporary measures blah blah blah…

Sort of like the rationalizations of Democrats over perjury, sexual harrassment, bombing Serbia, burning women and children to death at Mount Carmel, sanctions starving thousands of Iraqi citizens to death, and the seizure at gunpoint of Elian Gonzales? They rationalized away or ignored every single one of the Clinton Administration's abuses.

Mister Mxyzptlk
Once one of their guys is in power, while the situation wont change, they will be the ones defending the actions and FAUX News will be the ones screaming about the impending death of our democracy.

George Washington warned us about political parties, just as Ben Franklin warned us against losing our republic.

One good thing about the Bush Administration is that its abuses of power are teaching an entire generation to value the Founders and their image of constitutional Liberty.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:30PM
imshard at 2:40PM, Dec. 23, 2007
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TitanOne
Mister Mxyzptlk
Kilre
Even more delusional are those who think that this period is oh-so-traumatic and horrible and leading to the U.S. as a fascist state. Get over yourselves: it's been done before.

Yes, but those times it was done by Democrats who had the best intentions. This time it's a REPUBLICAN!!! OH MY FREEKING GAWD!!! They are so EVIL!!!

If all these things were being done by Gore or Kerry they wouldn't worry and in fact would be doing what FAUX News is doing now, rationalizing why these are necessary temporary measures blah blah blah…

Sort of like the rationalizations of Democrats over perjury, sexual harrassment, bombing Serbia, burning women and children to death at Mount Carmel, sanctions starving thousands of Iraqi citizens to death, and the seizure at gunpoint of Elian Gonzales? They rationalized away or ignored every single one of the Clinton Administration's abuses.

Mister Mxyzptlk
Once one of their guys is in power, while the situation wont change, they will be the ones defending the actions and FAUX News will be the ones screaming about the impending death of our democracy.

George Washington warned us about political parties, just as Ben Franklin warned us against losing our republic.

One good thing about the Bush Administration is that its abuses of power are teaching an entire generation to value the Founders and their image of the constitution.


Ben Franklin: “we live in a Federal Democratic Republic”

We need a Federal party fast. Supposedly the Republican party holds the value of representative government. The democratic party is named for the value of the People deciding policy. Federal should exist to striate the differences between levels of government and separate the levels of power. We have to much of the feds in our lives and business. Just as it was realized that three branches are needed to properly balance power with checks, the same is true for the para-governmental body known as the partisan system. That or we should abolish parties once and for all and have true government by the people, as it was intended.
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bobhhh at 11:25PM, Dec. 23, 2007
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Sort of like the rationalizations of Democrats over perjury, sexual harrassment, bombing Serbia, burning women and children to death at Mount Carmel, sanctions starving thousands of Iraqi citizens to death, and the seizure at gunpoint of Elian Gonzales? They rationalized away or ignored every single one of the Clinton Administration's abuses.

You can't be serious? The Branch Davidians were the ones who loaded their homes with ammunition, fuel cannisters and explosives, they were heavily armed and opened fire on the federal agents, where exactly did the government go wrong? You know, if my home was a powder keg, I would make it my business not to open fire on a swat team. That place was like a trap just waiting to be sprung.

And please don't tell me that stoping genocide in the balkans was a mistake. Milosovich needed to be stopped, even our allies thought so. No one at the UN complained about Bosnia, you think they would support a war just so Clinton could get away with cheating on his wife?? I only wish Bush had the guts to do the same in Burma and Darfur instead of trying to steal oil from the Iraquis.

And please, sanctions??? At least Clinton didn't go marching into Bagdad, guns blazing and level the infrastructure, disband the military and police, and destabilize the government. At least they had electricity during sanctions. At least whole families weren't being bombed into oblivion. You need to recheck your facts.

And please spare me the retread of the Clinton impeachment/screw job. That international embarrassment of the Right's botched vendetta on Clinton's presidency never turned up a single prosecution. It was all a fucking smear job. They started investigating one thing and then just kept throwing shit on the wall to see what could stick, until they found some semen. It was a disgusting perversion of our constitution to claim that a duely elected president should be impeached because he lied about a blowjob.

The only thing on your list I can concede is the Elian Gonzales story. But if that's the worst Clinton did compared to George W. Douche, then I'd say he's OK in my book.

Abuses? You wanna talk abuses? How about suspending habeas corpus and due process? How about subverting FISA? How about operating gulags like Gitmo? How about torturing prisoners? How about allowing people to drown in New Orleans(gee, wouldn't it have been nice if their National Guard units weren't all off in Iraq?)? You know the National guard isn't supposed to be called up to fight outside our borders unless its armageddon!! They are supposed to protect us here at home. Let's not forget the veterans who can't get decent health care or even the soldiers who's wives end up on welfare or the parents have to buy their kids kevlar to wear into battle.

And the worst, most heinous travesty of all: the profane use of the 911 tragedy to cynically and conveniently sell their long term desire to invade Iraq, even though Hussein was well known in the intelligence community to never be even possibly allied with Bin Laden. They even dropped their search for Bin Laden and wasted their time hunting Hussein. Wouldn't it have been nice for them to concentrate on actually catching the guy who razed the WTC? If Bin Laden perptrates another major attack on US Soil it will be on Bush's head for wasting manpower in Iraq that could have captured Osama and brought him to justice.

People who compare Bush's easily visible crimes and blunders to Clinton's supposed trangressions never manage to prove anything except their irrational hatred of Clinton.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:29AM
kyupol at 9:07AM, Dec. 24, 2007
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Before you dismiss ‘conspiracy nuts’ as wackos, please do actual research on the claims they make. Or connect the dots yourself. I believe alot of the stuff of Alex Jones and Michael Moore (lets say between 60-70% including that 9-11 is a conspiracy thing).

I've read somewhere though that the average North Americans are considered the most underinformed people on this earth, which is scary.

That is what makes dictatorships survive. A population that is gullible and easily controlled.

NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:25PM
mapaghimagsik at 9:51AM, Dec. 24, 2007
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There's a couple of issues here. Whether this is all conspiracy theory stuff, and whether its a partisan issue.

Well, crying conspiracy nut is just a weak argument. These were issues under previous presidents, but have never been exploited to the levels we're seeing now. It just *happens* to be the Republican party that's exploiting it the most because many of the major tenants of Republicanism (not conservatism) are ripe for these kind of abuses.

What's really interesting about all this is these “rule of law” Republicans can't bring themselves to life a finger when one of their own breaks the law. Perjury is breaking the law, and congress went through impeachment proceedings. The president was censured.

This president has lied to congress and has extended executive privilege to the point of covering white house staffers. He has intervened in the investigation of Scooter Libby not because justice wasn't being done, but to cover up an investigation.

These same rule of law republicans? Nothing. Not a sound.

Carter was sure no saint when it came to East Timor, either. But authors who write about that are conspiracy nuts!

There's a point where this is a world problem too. The world at large has done little for Somalia, but the nations who keep Africa destabilized have way too much money involved.

What is distressing about fascism in America is many believe it can't happen here, when it can happen anywhere. The moment we all believe it can happen to us, we've devolved into this kind of exceptionalism that means we're ripe for it *to* happen.

Realizing we're not unique or special is probably one of the most empowering things there is.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
lefarce at 12:27PM, Dec. 24, 2007
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America isn't a democracy, that's a common misconception. We're a republic. So there you go.

 
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:32PM
imshard at 1:04PM, Dec. 24, 2007
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lefarce
America isn't a democracy, that's a common misconception. We're a republic. So there you go.

A federal democratic republic. So named because we are a republic but the representatives carry out the will of the people. We could spend days debating who's who on conspiracy. When you really get into the world of conspiracy theory Partisan lines disappear fast. Its a totally different reality. Politics as the common knowledge sees it doesn't exist. Master theories of the shadow government and the central controller emerge. Suddenly the partisan politics look like shallow masks used to distract attention while the puppeteers have all the politicians of all rank and file under their control.

I agree with kyupol in that US citizens are the most under informed. They hear the short version only and stop there.

Bobhh gave a perfect example of only seeing one side of an issue without doing a complete analysis. I don't defend the Dividians and their beliefs, personally I've run across a few in my time and they tend to be head cases. Even so think about this: why were there agents at the compound to be fired on in the first place? let alone who fired first? Stopping genocide in the balkans? that was a U.N./NATO initiative if there ever was one. And the US bombing of medical facilities and orphanages hardly qualifies as a humanitarian action. And yes under the Clinton administration three half-heartened attempts were made to “march into Baghdad”, most notably operation Desert Fox.

And calling the guy George Douche is about as intelligent as calling Michael Moore a fat bastard. So let's avoid “irrational hatred” of anybody regardless of whose agenda you subscribe to.
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lefarce at 1:46PM, Dec. 24, 2007
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Alien Sedation Act.

Our first president stripped our right to free speech. So I'm not very gung-ho on the whole “the people are represented” thing. I mean, maybe that's the case if you're rich or can afford to lobby, but even in the good old days there was no such thing.

Sorry, I just think it's stilly to go all crazy and make conspiracies over potential freedoms we can lose. We've been losing essential freedoms since our nation's conception. The things Bush is doing/has done are nothing new. Just history repeating it's self.

 
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:32PM
Mister Mxyzptlk at 2:01PM, Dec. 24, 2007
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StaceyMontgomery
It seems to me that the whole “the republicans are as bad as the democrats” approach is essentially a way of saying “there are no choices.”

The first step, of course, is getting people to talk about the problem. In fact, that's most of the steps.

There are no choices. The people who are trying to tell you there are choices are either delusional or they have a partisan agenda. Getting folks to talk means nothing if all the talk is about chosing between coke and pepsi.
My soul was removed to make room for all this sarcasm.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:04PM
lefarce at 2:02PM, Dec. 24, 2007
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Mister Mxyzptlk
StaceyMontgomery
It seems to me that the whole “the republicans are as bad as the democrats” approach is essentially a way of saying “there are no choices.”

The first step, of course, is getting people to talk about the problem. In fact, that's most of the steps.

There are no choices. The people who are trying to tell you there are choices are either delusional or they have a partisan agenda. Getting folks to talk means nothing if all the talk is about chosing between coke and pepsi.

Personally, I'm a coke kinda' guy.

 
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:32PM
Mister Mxyzptlk at 2:06PM, Dec. 24, 2007
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bobhhh
The Branch Davidians were the ones who loaded their homes with ammunition, fuel cannisters and explosives, they were heavily armed and opened fire on the federal agents, where exactly did the government go wrong?

If the Feds were in the right on that one then why did they bulldoze all the evidence?
My soul was removed to make room for all this sarcasm.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:04PM
bobhhh at 3:08PM, Dec. 24, 2007
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lefarce
America isn't a democracy, that's a common misconception. We're a republic. So there you go.

A federal democratic republic. So named because we are a republic but the representatives carry out the will of the people. We could spend days debating who's who on conspiracy. When you really get into the world of conspiracy theory Partisan lines disappear fast. Its a totally different reality. Politics as the common knowledge sees it doesn't exist. Master theories of the shadow government and the central controller emerge. Suddenly the partisan politics look like shallow masks used to distract attention while the puppeteers have all the politicians of all rank and file under their control.

I agree with kyupol in that US citizens are the most under informed. They hear the short version only and stop there.

Bobhh gave a perfect example of only seeing one side of an issue without doing a complete analysis. I don't defend the Dividians and their beliefs, personally I've run across a few in my time and they tend to be head cases. Even so think about this: why were there agents at the compound to be fired on in the first place? let alone who fired first? Stopping genocide in the balkans? that was a U.N./NATO initiative if there ever was one. And the US bombing of medical facilities and orphanages hardly qualifies as a humanitarian action. And yes under the Clinton administration three half-heartened attempts were made to “march into Baghdad”, most notably operation Desert Fox.

And calling the guy George Douche is about as intelligent as calling Michael Moore a fat bastard. So let's avoid “irrational hatred” of anybody regardless of whose agenda you subscribe to.

I call my hatred rational. that's a joke, and so was the douche comment.

But what also is humourous is your comparison of the no fly zones with what is happening now in Iraq. Those were put in place with UN approval to keep Hussein from retaliating against the shia in the south and the kurds in the north.

Yes Bosnia was a UN action, remember the good old days when we worked with the UN instead of going in unilaterally? Unlike Iraq where we were scorned by the international community and the white house response was to rename french fries.

And why were the feds at waco? perhaps it was the reports of ex davidians that their spiritual leader told them that god had ordered him to have serial sex with them and their underage daughters, statutory rape is something of a crime you know and using a church to commit a crime is a federal offense. then there is that little bit about koresh hiding a cache of illegal, unregistered weapons.

You know I just call them like I see them. I'm not saying Bubba was without faults. I think his welfare reform was heartless and his botched job of healthcare reform was a strategic blunder. Giving the job to Hillary was an almost idiot mistake. Somalia was also a disaster. And I do fault him for being so sloppy in his personal life, knowing he was being scrutinized by bloodthirsty republicans.

And perhaps he should have ended the no fly zones instituted by Bush senior after his clusterfuck called desert storm, but his military commanders at the time were united in their opinion that pulling out to soon would cause a massacre and that Taking out Hussein would destabilize the region.

Maybe if he wasn't so worried with his image, he would have taken the risk and gotten Bin Laden when he had the chance after the Cole bombing. Perhaps he could have also twisted Israels arm and made them come to the table with a reqasonable plan for peace instead of a Photo Op. Buts lets not forget that the republicans were dogging his every move. I laugh when I heard the neocons call all dissenters traitors in 2003 because they questioned the president in time of war. Look up some the things they said about Clinton during Bosnia, every day of that action. Perhaps if the republicans and the special counsel weren't making Clinton do a litlle dance for the last five years of his presidency he might have acomplished more.

But he still managed to accomplish a lot. and I maintain to compare him with Bush and say one is no better than the other is partisan in it's lack of perspective.

It's myopic at best misleading at worst.
My name is Bob and I approved this signature.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:29AM
imshard at 3:39PM, Dec. 24, 2007
(online)
posts: 2,961
joined: 7-26-2007
bobhhh
I call my hatred rational. that's a joke, and so was the douche comment.

But what also is humourous is your comparison of the no fly zones with what is happening now in Iraq. Those were put in place with UN approval to keep Hussein from retaliating against the shia in the south and the kurds in the north.

Yes Bosnia was a UN action, remember the good old days when we worked with the UN instead of going in unilaterally? Unlike Iraq where we were scorned by the international community and the white house response was to rename french fries.

And why were the feds at waco? perhaps it was the reports of ex davidians that their spiritual leader told them that god had ordered him to have serial sex with them and their underage daughters, statutory rape is something of a crime you know and using a church to commit a crime is a federal offense. then there is that little bit about koresh hiding a cache of illegal, unregistered weapons.

You know I just call them like I see them. I'm not saying Bubba was without faults. I think his welfare reform was heartless and his botched job of healthcare reform was a strategic blunder. Giving the job to Hillary was an almost idiot mistake. Somalia was also a disaster. And I do fault him for being so sloppy in his personal life, knowing he was being scrutinized by bloodthirsty republicans.

And perhaps he should have ended the no fly zones instituted by Bush senior after his clusterfuck called desert storm, but his military commanders at the time were united in their opinion that pulling out to soon would cause a massacre and that Taking out Hussein would destabilize the region.

Maybe if he wasn't so worried with his image, he would have taken the risk and gotten Bin Laden when he had the chance after the Cole bombing. Perhaps he could have also twisted Israels arm and made them come to the table with a reqasonable plan for peace instead of a Photo Op. Buts lets not forget that the republicans were dogging his every move. I laugh when I heard the neocons call all dissenters traitors in 2003 because they questioned the president in time of war. Look up some the things they said about Clinton during Bosnia, every day of that action. Perhaps if the republicans and the special counsel weren't making Clinton do a litlle dance for the last five years of his presidency he might have acomplished more.

But he still managed to accomplish a lot. and I maintain to compare him with Bush and say one is no better than the other is partisan in it's lack of perspective.

It's myopic at best misleading at worst.

There is no rational hatred. Righteous anger is one thing, but hatred is neither logical nor useful. I won't debate details and nit-pick over examples. Point is people hold double standards for their “party” and excuse the self-same types of behavior they decry their rivals for. Whine, deny, and argue all you want it won't change how all sides still flip-flop and say whatever they can to get more votes and cash for themselves.Glad to see you aren't a blind Clintonite at least its a nice change of pace.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 12:58PM
mapaghimagsik at 4:19PM, Dec. 24, 2007
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posts: 711
joined: 9-8-2006
Gotta agree here. There's something about hatred that throws reason to the wind. Hate isn't rational. Outrage can be rational, as can anger, but when it turns into hate…
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
bobhhh at 8:42PM, Dec. 24, 2007
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joined: 5-12-2007
mapaghimagsik
Gotta agree here. There's something about hatred that throws reason to the wind. Hate isn't rational. Outrage can be rational, as can anger, but when it turns into hate…

Fine I'm outraged, I'm indignant and angry. I take back the hatred remark.

And I'm glad to get a chance to prove I ha-, um am indignant with my own party as well as the GOP.

When my adrenaline runs out and I am no longer angry, I am in truth sad that our nation has digressed to this point.
My name is Bob and I approved this signature.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:29AM
bobhhh at 8:53PM, Dec. 24, 2007
(offline)
posts: 893
joined: 5-12-2007
imshard
Point is people hold double standards for their “party” and excuse the self-same types of behavior they decry their rivals for. Whine, deny, and argue all you want it won't change how all sides still flip-flop and say whatever they can to get more votes and cash for themselves.Glad to see you aren't a blind Clintonite at least its a nice change of pace.

I don't have double standards, if Clinton had done half of the things that Bush has done, I would have voted against his second term and criticized him every day. I give you that Clinton made mistakes, but not the outright subversion that Bush engages in.

Its not being fair and balaced to claim all politicians are the same when some are far worse than others.

And I invite you to not characterize my opinion as whining. I have a very well reasoned, if not passionate opinion. Just because you disagree is no cause for either of us to denigrate the validity each others position with a personal insult.

Here we are in a debate forum and you proclaim you won't take on my position point by point. Well then of what use is you're blanket condemnation of it? To make me look bad for having an opinion? We already know you think I'm wrong, why not engage in debate and poke holes in my logic?

It's so much easier to be vaguely critical than it is to discuss things in depth.
My name is Bob and I approved this signature.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:29AM

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