Debate and Discussion

The immigration debate
bravo1102 at 2:37AM, June 22, 2010
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There is the question of national identity and the very human “us-not us” mindset. They're not like us so they shouldn't be here. It's been like that forever. Whether citizens of the Demos in Athens, those damn barbarians at the gates, This is SPARTA!, Citizen of Rome all the way down to the European Union envisioned by Napoleon and the Fourteenth Amendment of the US Constitution. We've been down this road many times and it is human nature. We are s clannish species and it takes a long time to accept others into our clan. Eventually we always do. But getting there is such a long drawn-out process and some groups have fared better than others.
I reminded of the satirical sign from the movie Blazing Saddles (refelcting a sentiment that did exist in 19th C. America) “Niggers, Chinks, Indians allowed, but WE DON'T WANT THE IRISH!”
The mass immigration of the late 19th and early 20th C in the USA was just as bad if not worse than the current illegal immigration problem. Face it everybody in the Western Hemisphere is an immigrant it's just how recently you arrived. My ancestors got here 400 years ago (1610) but I still ain't a “Native American”
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:33AM
imshard at 12:50PM, June 22, 2010
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In a slight segue from the banning the burqua thread, can anyone from UK or the EU tell me about the immigration problems over there? I've heard that many countries are expressing concern over islamic groups migrating into westernized areas and causing controversy for refusing assimilate and creating separate hostile communities even demanding unbalanced changes to courts and schools and forcing out native populations with aggressive behavior. Much like American groups raise ruckus over Hispanic/Latino groups “invading” (not my choice of word) US cities. Is there any validity to these claims? Or is this just more rabble rousing?
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last edited on July 14, 2011 12:59PM
ParkerFarker at 5:31AM, June 24, 2010
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Here's my opinion on the matter in Australia:

There is no right way of doing things. I don't think our infrastructure can handle every person that immigrates here. They're not gonna steal our jobs or anything, China's doing a good job of that, I just don't see how we can fit all the extra people without setting up some slumsvilles or sending them to the desert (which has been done (Woolimba)). I would love it if we could let them all in, but I just don't think our infrastructure can handle it. It almost seems like our duty to let the refugees in. They've come seeking our help, and all we're doing is sending them to some islands with piss-poor facilities on them for a few years then sending them straight back. However I don't see any solutions to the problem without majorly upsetting something.

“We are in the stickiest situation since Sticky the stick insect got stuck on a sticky bun.” - Blackadder
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:39PM
Genejoke at 5:57AM, June 25, 2010
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imshard
In a slight segue from the banning the burqua thread, can anyone from UK or the EU tell me about the immigration problems over there? I've heard that many countries are expressing concern over islamic groups migrating into westernized areas and causing controversy for refusing assimilate and creating separate hostile communities even demanding unbalanced changes to courts and schools and forcing out native populations with aggressive behavior. Much like American groups raise ruckus over Hispanic/Latino groups “invading” (not my choice of word) US cities. Is there any validity to these claims? Or is this just more rabble rousing?


It is commonly reported over here in the UK, how much does it really happen? I don't know.
There was an article in one of the news papers the other day about a man from a middle eastern country coming over here and claiming lots of money in benefits despite the fact he was loaded. Is it true? I will assume so as a friend works in the tax office and the difficulties in checking backgrounds of people from various countries is commonly exploited. Apparently I could claim child benefit for five children I fathered that live in Thailand… okay I don't have five thai offspring but they can't prove otherwise so I could get the money for it. This has been done in the past, although the loophole may be closed now.

To the main point, yes there are many campaigning to get sharia law in the UK, and I have seen a little of the “extreme” side of things but to be honest it isn't a huge thing where I live, big cities would be very different I imagine.
Where I live there is a large population of foreign students, from talking with them you would likely think the media have it completely wrong, but having lived in reading a few years back I did see the flip side. Estate where white people where a tiny minority and shops where no even speaks english and you get glared at if you enter them.

To me the solution is simple, well the idea is, the execution would be much harder.
National service.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:33PM
ozoneocean at 7:26AM, June 25, 2010
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Genejoke
To me the solution is simple, well the idea is, the execution would be much harder.
National service.
Various politicians tend to like that one too, but you're right: in practise it's very hard.
The military universally tends to hate it. It's a massive drain on resources and gives them a constant stream of the crappest quality soldiers.
It's like saying; “Hey, we're gonna take away your powerful computer, your tablet, all your top quality pens, expensive paper, your desk etc… And give you a truckload of cheap wax crayons (only four colours), and 500 yards of newspaper to draw on. That's the national service way to make comics!”

Plus, your population doesn't get any more happy, homogeneous, and integrated either. Israel's a great case in point. They still think their settlers are dicks (maybe that have a point), Orthodox don't have to serve so that's a great source of tension, and Arab Israeli's who serve are still second class.
ParkerFarker
Here's my opinion on the matter in Australia:

There is no right way of doing things. I don't think our infrastructure can handle every person that immigrates here. They're not gonna steal our jobs or anything, China's doing a good job of that, I just don't see how we can fit all the extra people without setting up some slumsvilles or sending them to the desert (which has been done (Woolimba)). I would love it if we could let them all in, but I just don't think our infrastructure can handle it. It almost seems like our duty to let the refugees in. They've come seeking our help, and all we're doing is sending them to some islands with piss-poor facilities on them for a few years then sending them straight back. However I don't see any solutions to the problem without majorly upsetting something.
That's the major dichotomy here-
Australia is a very wealthy, prosperous country, with a small population, and a gigantic landmass- as big as the USA- (minus Alaska). On the other hand, only a minute part of the country is habitable, farmers have to fight in court to get enough water for their land, drought is almost constant all over the continent, and the infrastructure is only set up to supply the needs of that small population. Indeed, the country couldn't really support much more, weird as it is…

Although we'd really have no trouble absorbing the small amount of people that trickle in as paid refugees bought by people smugglers if we actually had the balls to do it, instead of detaining them for years and years.

But that sort of thing is a massive and extremely nebulous issue with many more heads than a Hydra… There are so Many MANY aspects to it: the image and popularisation of mass consumerism , the divide between the haves and have nots, failure of foreign aid to reach the people that need it, organised crime in people-smuggling, our responsibility for foreign conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan and the people that are affected, disparities in trade that keep them poor and us rich, not to mention ethnic prejudice which makes us prefer English speaking or any European illegal immigrants over anyone from Asia, the Middle East or anywhere else.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:36PM
Salsa at 11:01AM, June 27, 2010
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Eh, I'm probably going to wind rehashing some things that have already been said, but here's my two cents.


Legal immigrants I have no problem with. They have gone through the background checks, the paperwork, and they have waited patiently for the chance to come here. As far as the requirements go, I'm not familiar with them, so I can't give a valid opinion there.

Illegal immigrants I have a problem with. While many are looking for honest work, there are many who are drug runners, gang members and wanted in their own countries. Another thing is through our border patrol is armed they aren't allowed to fire on people illegally jumping the border, and I heard from somewhere that this is true even if they are being FIRED upon by those people.

They have to know what they're doing is illegal because they know enough of the law to know that anyone born on US soil is a US citizens. This leads to all kinds of legal issues that I won't enumerate here. Basically, people'll jump the border, go to a US hospital and give birth. Their child is now a US citizen and the Immigration office has another case to work out.

Another fear, that I think is legitimate, but very unlikely, is the fear that terrorist are hopping across the border. The problem with Illegal immigrants is that they are very hard to track and to tax. It doesn't matter if they are doing legit work or not, as far as I know Illegals pay no taxes beyond sales tax, and they don't pay for medical insurance or anything like that because they would get caught otherwise. Yet they can use services like emergency rooms and some government services, which makes the people in charge just as guilty as the immigrants because I believe you have to be a citizen for most of those, and if they can't pay, then those of us that do have insurance and do pay taxes have to pick up the slack.

As far as speaking English goes, the vast majority of Americans are not fluent in Spanish. Those that are are probably already working for the state and those that aren't probably already work for companies that deal with Spanish speaking countries. I believe, and this goes for anyone who is going to a country that doesn't speak your language, that if your going into a country that does not have you native language as it's native language, then it's almost necessary that you learn the language well enough that you can communicate with the people there. The one time I had to go to th emergency room there was a guy who only spoke Spanish there and he had cut himself using a saw, and he was probably going to bleed out. The doctors couldn't get any information from him because they are trained in making sure everything is working and where it needs to be in your body, not interpreting Spanish. They SHOULDN'T have to worry about not speaking their patients language in my opinion.

As for National Service. I agree with whoever disagreed with it. That is not a solution for the reasons listed, and the fact that most of your best soldiers are going volunteer for the job, not be forced into it. I also have some problems with my knees and my ankles sometimes so I REALLY wouldn't be cut out for military training. Besides, I would want to be in the Air Force or the Marine's air corps for the simple reason that I want learn to fly planes and if I joined the latter, I'd want to fly a Harrier, and wouldn't be too happy if I couldn't.

Any way there's my two cents worth. A nickel'll get you an essay, a dollar'll get you a book.
RAGE!
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:18PM
bravo1102 at 4:24AM, June 28, 2010
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There's the huge fear that your identity will vanish in a sea of immigrants. It's happened quite a lot and then there's nostalgia for the old identity and it's a joke where a population that is now totally different because of immigration tries to reclaim a heroic past. Don't suggest to a modern Greek that his ancestors are probably originally from the Middle East and had nothing to do with Classical Greece or that a modern Italian's ancestors are probably barbarians from Germany and had nothing to do with the Glory that was Rome.

Over the long haul people move around a lot and usually morph into copies of the people already in place. The first generation is a total alien with the foreign language and odd clothes. Their grandkids are more “American” than most people who are members of the DAR. (Daughters of the American Revolution; able to trace ancestry to Rev War Patriots, decendents of Loyalists like me not wanted)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:33AM
ozoneocean at 5:34AM, June 28, 2010
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bravo1102
Over the long haul people move around a lot and usually morph into copies of the people already in place. The first generation is a total alien with the foreign language and odd clothes. Their grandkids are more “American” than most people who are members of the DAR.
That's why NSW and it's capital Sydney tend to be the most Orst-ray-lee-an of all places in Australia-> more immigration there than anywhere else in the place and they become ultra-aussie.

Children of British immigrants here; very Aussie.
Plus, immigrants who get citizenship are way more patriotic than anyone else. I think that tends to be the case elsewhere too.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:36PM

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