Debate and Discussion

The importance of an ARMED population.
kyupol at 6:44AM, Aug. 24, 2008
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-Ozone edit-
We don't start debate posts with videos, but I moved this to this forum because it turned into a debate. :)



NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:26PM
Custard Trout at 6:59AM, Aug. 24, 2008
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Or option three: pull a gun on the rapist only to find out he also has a gun due to easy they are to obtain and is a lot less worried about using it than you.
Hey buddy, you should be a Russian Cosmonaut, and here's why.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:01PM
kyupol at 7:05AM, Aug. 24, 2008
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Custard Trout
Or option three: pull a gun on the rapist only to find out he also has a gun due to easy they are to obtain and is a lot less worried about using it than you.

Thats alot better than just standing there and waiting to be raped.

END VICTIM DISARMAMENT. GUN CONTROL PROTECTS CRIMINALS.

You know what, I wanna custom print out a T-shirt with a message that says:

“Attention criminals, This person is disarmed for your convenience.”
NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:26PM
Custard Trout at 7:23AM, Aug. 24, 2008
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kyupol
Thats alot better than just standing there and waiting to be raped.

Well, the implication was would that you'd end up A: raped anyway, B: wounded, then raped, C: killed, or D: raped, then killed.

I'd rather get raped than risk being killed or both.
Hey buddy, you should be a Russian Cosmonaut, and here's why.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:01PM
Signz at 7:33AM, Aug. 24, 2008
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well i'd say it all depends who is raping me….

srsly tho i'm with kyupol on this.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:36PM
bravo1102 at 7:38AM, Aug. 24, 2008
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Custard Trout
Or option three: pull a gun on the rapist only to find out he also has a gun due to easy they are to obtain and is a lot less worried about using it than you.

Common mythology brought up by the anti-gun lobby. The truth: more crime is stopped and prevented by and armed and properly trained populace than committed.

If the victim pulls the gun most perps will think that discretion is the better part of valor. Also most perps have no idea how to use their weapon. Most law-abiding gun owners do. Most perps will depend on surprise and threaten, not use the weapon. Exceptions are drive-bys. However, gang-bangers have no idea how to shoot and it's the exception that they hit what they're aiming at.

Please don't give me the million shot Police over reaction bit. That's because it's a 9mm/40 caliber automatic with a large capacity clip. Back when police had 6 shot revolvers you saw dead perps but not as many bullets. It's too easy to keep pulling that trigger esp on most 9mm.

This message brought to you by: the National Rifle Association and gun toting/loving Americans who stop crime everyday. When you can return fire the perp thinks twice.

At least that's what my gun loving NRA-member brother tells me. :)

If you're ever stupid enough to pull a gun you better be smart enough to pull the trigger; repeatedly until the target is dead.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:33AM
ozoneocean at 7:52AM, Aug. 24, 2008
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The way I look at this is; if I was walking into town to go to the shop to buy milk or whatever, I would really rather NOT have every idiot on the street having their own gun… morons with itchy trigger fingers. I'd feel intimidated and a little worried, jut in case someone started something. They'd probably all feel that way too. Bit of a powder keg there wouldn't you say?
Gunfight at the OK coral lol!

Imagine what'd happen when people got cut off in traffic etc when everybody's got a gun? Road rage to another level. ;)
Even if someone goes after someone else with a tire lever, it's pretty easy to avoid them or even drive away. It's hard to hide from or outrun a bullet… if you're not Superman.
———————–


Mass armed populations can't work. It's a stupid idea championed by stupid people.

Now, if you were living in little isolated communities, where everyone knew each other, there weren't many strangers, police didn't go out that way too often; then guns are ok for the people… not really for protection form other people, just as a tool they might use occasionally. For hunting etc, and maybe protection if it was really needed.

In a mass population, if your society starts to break down and law is ineffective, then you'll probably need and want a gun for protection. That won't make things better, it might give you some protection, but it just contributes to the break down. In that situation your best solution is to move and go somewhere more stable.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:32PM
Inkmonkey at 8:06AM, Aug. 24, 2008
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Y'know… rapists generally don't dress like a cartoon criminal and announce themselves several feet in front of you. In general, random, on the street rape is so rare that preparing paranoidly for it is kind of like having a bomb shelter; not necessarily a bad idea, but it might make you look a bit crazy. Rape generally happens in the home, because let's be honest, it would just be hard to have sex with someone against their will in the middle of a public street. All in all I'd say this whole thing is really oversimplifying a complex problem.

When it comes to gun law, I think it should be okay for citizen's to carry guns, but I wouldn't say people should be forced to, or that you're in danger if you don't. Rape aside you're more likely to get held up at gun point, and in those cases even if you have a gun it's a better idea to just cut your losses and report your credit card stolen when you get home, rather than risk a gunfight.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:00PM
Custard Trout at 8:16AM, Aug. 24, 2008
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Inkmonkey
it's a better idea to just cut your losses and report your credit card stolen when you get home, rather than risk a gunfight.

It wouldn't really be a gunfight, because the robber would have pulled the trigger the second he realised you were pulling out your own gun.
Hey buddy, you should be a Russian Cosmonaut, and here's why.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:01PM
ozoneocean at 8:32AM, Aug. 24, 2008
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Custard Trout
It wouldn't really be a gunfight, because the robber would have pulled the trigger the second he realised you were pulling out your own gun.
Heh, more like “gun death”? lol!

How about instead of it being ok to carry guns, let's make it a law that people have to wear heavy Kevlar armour, carry RPG7 rocket launchers, and wear helmets with two foot long spike on top of them!

Kids won't be allowed, they'll have to carry flame-throwers instead. And NOT those stupid toy gas fuelled ones you see in the movies and games like TF2. No, the REAL ones with the sticky fiery liquid spray that shoots much, much further and does a lot more damage.

Only then will be truly safe from the menace of street rapage :(
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:32PM
Inkmonkey at 9:43AM, Aug. 24, 2008
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Also, I just realized that, in the video, there was no real indication of what the “rapist” was going to do before he actually got to the girl. Sure, he's clearly running in her direction, but should we really be encouraging people to go straight for the gun whenever a guy with a cold face happens to be in a hurry?

That reminds me of a story posted I believe somewhere here in WTH where an old woman pulled a gun on a bunch of kids she thought were breaking into her car, only to realize later that it was their car and just happened to be the same model.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:00PM
JoeL_CQB at 11:21AM, Aug. 24, 2008
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in that case, if the dude was a rapist, couldn't she have used mace instead?
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:10PM
Croi Dhubh at 2:51PM, Aug. 24, 2008
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Society is safer when the criminals don't know who's armed. Places which have strict gun control laws have a higher rate of violent crime.

Custard Trout
Or option three: pull a gun on the rapist only to find out he also has a gun due to easy they are to obtain and is a lot less worried about using it than you.
Most people aren't prepared to suddenly pull out a gun when one is pulled on them. The likely hood of the person having a gun might be high, but if you're actually willing to use the gun you have, then this isn't an issue. If you aren't willing to shoot, then don't have a gun.

In addition, since the criminals can easily get a hold of a weapon to use against you, then why should you be forced to remain defenseless? Are you suggesting people simply allow themselves to be raped?

I treat everyone as if they are armed anyway, so it wouldn't affect me and my profession.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:54AM
Inkmonkey at 4:41PM, Aug. 24, 2008
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Croi Dhubh
Most people aren't prepared to suddenly pull out a gun when one is pulled on them. The likely hood of the person having a gun might be high, but if you're actually willing to use the gun you have, then this isn't an issue. If you aren't willing to shoot, then don't have a gun.


I dunno… I get the feeling if a rapist is out a-rapin', and he does happen to be a gun owner, odds are high that he's going to keep it handy, just in case. Hell, tha's probably going to be a primary instrument in his rape plans for the evening.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:00PM
ozoneocean at 4:51PM, Aug. 24, 2008
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Croi Dhubh
Society is safer when the criminals don't know who's armed. Places which have strict gun control laws have a higher rate of violent crime.
Brazil, Columbia, and South Africa would tend to disprove that as convincingly as it is possible to have something disproved.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:32PM
bravo1102 at 6:00PM, Aug. 24, 2008
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Croi Dhubh
Society is safer when the criminals don't know who's armed. Places which have strict gun control laws have a higher rate of violent crime.
Brazil, Columbia, and South Africa would tend to disprove that as convincingly as it is possible to have something disproved.

The numbers can go both ways, it depends on who's doing the counting. All three of those places can go either way. South Africa is a tribal society so that can change things a bit. Brazil and Columbia have drug cartels. In each one it is not the average person who has the gun, but organized gangs who have a vested interest in using violence to enforce their own power. It can be argued that if the general populace was armed, the violent groups would be defeated. Kind of like gang bangers in the USA. In areas where the gangs have taken over the streets, the street with armed civilians (like a neighborhood watch or the Guardian Angels) has less gang problems than unorganized unarmed civilians.

My time in the army I sat and talked to lots of guys who joined because of those streets and gangs and in the Reserve knew lots of police officers and prison guards as well as social workers and I have taught “at risk” kids. I don't just look at the news and read numbers, I talk to those who've been there.

By the way, the whole thing about comparing it to the Old West is another myth. They should be comparing it to a Western Movie, not the real Old West. Usually when the armed law-abiding types banded together the outlaws lost and order was preserved.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:33AM
ozoneocean at 10:29PM, Aug. 24, 2008
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I know a lot of people from South Africa, white and black. Most white families have guns for protection… The fully automatic kind.

It doesn't decrease the level of violence and murder.
———-
Ha! Where you're talking about less violence because an armed gang take overs (be they criminal or vigilante), what you really have there is them just taking the role of the police as being the only major armed group that keeps the peace.

So it's not a really argument in favour of guns, just an indictment of poor civil control. In fact even your point about the old west… Seems to be the argument of an armed populace ensuring peace is a myth and the real argument is about policing methods.
———-

If you want a really secure place, you could always go the Romanian route and have everyone keep an eye on everyone else… No need for weapons then :)
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:32PM
Custard Trout at 1:53AM, Aug. 25, 2008
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Croi Dhubh
In addition, since the criminals can easily get a hold of a weapon to use against you, then why should you be forced to remain defenseless? Are you suggesting people simply allow themselves to be raped?

Gosh yes, because making it harder to get guns wouldn't affect criminals at all. They just use their innate voodoo bad guy magic to make them appear from thin air.
Hey buddy, you should be a Russian Cosmonaut, and here's why.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:01PM
ozoneocean at 2:02AM, Aug. 25, 2008
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Custard Trout
Gosh yes, because making it harder to get guns wouldn't affect criminals at all. They just use their innate voodoo bad guy magic to make them appear from thin air.
That's true. They have that power. They can also rape you at long range via those new sophisticated rape guns I've heard about… Now with 8x rape-scopes! o_O
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:32PM
HippieVan at 8:46AM, Aug. 25, 2008
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I'm really glad that guns aren't just given out willy-nilly in Canada. The creepy stalker guy in my neighbourhood actually just got arrested so I can walk around in the dark alone and feel pretty safe, but I can't imagine that being the case if I knew that anyone I walked by could be carrying a gun. I have to agree with Custard Trout.
I do have a funny gun story, though. A neighbour of mine, who liked to hunt, woke up one night and looked out the window to see some delinquents robbing his garage. I think the same guys had actually robbed another garage down the block just recently. Without thinking to call the police - or put on any clothes - this guy grabbed his shotgun and ran out after the robbers. After being chased down the street by a naked guy with a shotgun, they never came back.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 12:49PM
ozoneocean at 9:50AM, Aug. 25, 2008
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Hippie Van
The creepy stalker guy in my neighbourhood actually just got arrested so I can walk around in the dark alone and feel pretty safe
Reminds me of the creepy man that gets off at my stop on the train in the afternoons sometimes. He tries to chat up all the young guys. :(

Creeps me out. I cross the street or pretend to be really into my book or something. If he's gay, why doesn't he just go to a club or something… gah!
He's so… CREEPY!
————–

Man, I am soooo glad he doesn't have a gun.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:32PM
bravo1102 at 11:51AM, Aug. 25, 2008
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Ha! Where you're talking about less violence because an armed gang take overs (be they criminal or vigilante), what you really have there is them just taking the role of the police as being the only major armed group that keeps the peace.

So it's not a really argument in favour of guns, just an indictment of poor civil control. In fact even your point about the old west… Seems to be the argument of an armed populace ensuring peace is a myth and the real argument is about policing methods.

Exactly. However, the old west thing is not a myth. There was no organized police in the Old West, just the same as there is no effective police in extremely violent areas. Texas was an exception with the Texas Rangers and later there wre Federal marshall, but until then it was the people. This is the story of the American Frontier going back to when the West was the foothills of the Appalchians.

So an armed citizenry took the law into their own hands, often assisting or with the authority of the sheriff.

Most of my friends are from Brazil and Columbia as well as the inner cities of the US. Something as simple as sitting on your stoop with a baseball bat would decrease violent crime. If the criminals knew that a certain block wouldn't take any shit, the criminals stayed away. A neighbor can get there a lot faster than 9-1-1. It takes time for the police to arrive and patrols are transitory. The residents are always there. The police can't be everywhere, and many prosecuters as well as police appreciate it when the people help with those watches, baseball bats and even shooting the bad guys.

An armed populace can and has worked. But it isn't for everywhere. The numbers prove that. It also doesn't work in sharply divided populations (like South Africa. Brazil is mostly confined to the cities and in areas where the people have weapons to take care of “critters” the criminals buy them off) It usually doesn't or can't be proven to work in urban populations. A lot of the information is anecdotal or historical so may not apply. Can a frontier area with six shooters and Winchesters be compared to a suburban area with drive-bys?

I was surprised to find 18th-19th century accounts of home massacres and assaults by psychotic individuals. That's not supposed to happen! You mean people went postal in the 18th century? An 18th Century Columbine? Yup. Except Clem went home, got his rifle and shot the guy.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:33AM
HippieVan at 1:26PM, Aug. 25, 2008
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Hippie Van
The creepy stalker guy in my neighbourhood actually just got arrested so I can walk around in the dark alone and feel pretty safe
Reminds me of the creepy man that gets off at my stop on the train in the afternoons sometimes. He tries to chat up all the young guys. :(

Creeps me out. I cross the street or pretend to be really into my book or something. If he's gay, why doesn't he just go to a club or something… gah!
He's so… CREEPY!
————–

Man, I am soooo glad he doesn't have a gun.

This guy in my neighbourhood has actually stood behind telephone poles and just stared at me. He doesn't generally talk to people, which I'm thankful for. Him and his roommate also throw furniture(stereos, bookshelves etc. that they have probably stolen) and paint onto the highway and stand beside it drinking, watching cars run over the stuff.
One time I saw him drunkenly stumbling in my direction on the street and I actually just ran away. I don't even care if I looked silly or whatever, because he's really scary.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 12:49PM
ozoneocean at 10:15PM, Aug. 25, 2008
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That guy and his friend sound like just plain morons. Not stalkers so much as dangerous types that could do anything at all… Sounds like he'd be happier in prison :)
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:32PM
lothar at 5:14AM, Aug. 26, 2008
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Hippie Van
This guy in my neighbourhood has actually stood behind telephone poles and just stared at me. He doesn't generally talk to people, which I'm thankful for. Him and his roommate also throw furniture(stereos, bookshelves etc. that they have probably stolen) and paint onto the highway and stand beside it drinking, watching cars run over the stuff.
One time I saw him drunkenly stumbling in my direction on the street and I actually just ran away. I don't even care if I looked silly or whatever, because he's really scary.

ROFL !!! hahaha ha a
those guys sound cool
what do you think they would do if you pulled a gun on them ?
they'd prolly throw you in the street and watch cars run over you , see , you don't even need guns to be violent !
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:45PM
HippieVan at 7:36AM, Aug. 26, 2008
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lothar
Hippie Van
This guy in my neighbourhood has actually stood behind telephone poles and just stared at me. He doesn't generally talk to people, which I'm thankful for. Him and his roommate also throw furniture(stereos, bookshelves etc. that they have probably stolen) and paint onto the highway and stand beside it drinking, watching cars run over the stuff.
One time I saw him drunkenly stumbling in my direction on the street and I actually just ran away. I don't even care if I looked silly or whatever, because he's really scary.

ROFL !!! hahaha ha a
those guys sound cool
what do you think they would do if you pulled a gun on them ?
they'd prolly throw you in the street and watch cars run over you , see , you don't even need guns to be violent !

True, but they could get me from farther away if they had guns.

I think it would be really great if one day whatever they threw on the highway flew back and hit them when a car ran over it.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 12:49PM
Custard Trout at 8:43AM, Aug. 26, 2008
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There guy who used to chuck stuff on the road here as well. Eventually he managed to knacker someone's car and got the shit beaten out of him by its owner. He stopped doing it after that.
Hey buddy, you should be a Russian Cosmonaut, and here's why.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:01PM
bravo1102 at 11:25AM, Aug. 27, 2008
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hippie van
I think it would be really great if one day whatever they threw on the highway flew back and hit them when a car ran over it.

I saw video of that once or twice. The guy wanted to see the thing get trashed and pieces flew right at him.

Custard trout
There guy who used to chuck stuff on the road here as well. Eventually he managed to knacker someone's car and got the shit beaten out of him by its owner. He stopped doing it after that.

I saw that happen to a couple of kids. It got better when the cops were called and it was the kids who got in trouble.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:33AM
Croi Dhubh at 7:39PM, Aug. 27, 2008
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Custard Trout
Croi Dhubh
In addition, since the criminals can easily get a hold of a weapon to use against you, then why should you be forced to remain defenseless? Are you suggesting people simply allow themselves to be raped?

Gosh yes, because making it harder to get guns wouldn't affect criminals at all. They just use their innate voodoo bad guy magic to make them appear from thin air.
Considering the criminals get hold of weapons rather easily and there are ALREADY laws PROHIBITING THEM FROM DOING SO, you sound like a jack ass
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:54AM
ozoneocean at 8:45PM, Aug. 27, 2008
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Croi Dhubh
Custard Trout
Croi Dhubh
In addition, since the criminals can easily get a hold of a weapon to use against you, then why should you be forced to remain defenseless? Are you suggesting people simply allow themselves to be raped?
Gosh yes, because making it harder to get guns wouldn't affect criminals at all. They just use their innate voodoo bad guy magic to make them appear from thin air.
Considering the criminals get hold of weapons rather easily and there are ALREADY laws PROHIBITING THEM FROM DOING SO, you sound like a jack ass
Not really Cori.
You have to consider that if things are legally able to be sold and manufactured in a country, anyone can get a hold of them relatively easily no matter what specific laws there are regarding trading and ownership if they go outside of those laws- as criminals do, by definition. ;)

However, if there is no major local source, then the only options are: illegal smuggling, illegal small scale manufacture, and trade in the finite existing supply.
If that's the case it's very hard for criminals to obtain the weapons they desire.

-There are many, many instances where this has happened, notability in many warring areas where local large scale manufacture is impossible and legal large scale importation is also impossible. The supply of useful working weapons in the hands of the people not supposed to have them decreases as they wear out and break, the black market cost of new ones dramatically increases, putting them out of reach of petty criminals.
———–
In that case, only your warring factions will have them (who're just as bad), as well as very organised criminal gangs- and the main antagonists of these groups are the local military and police forces. :)
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:32PM

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