Debate and Discussion

The Nature of Reality
kyupol at 7:36AM, May 14, 2008
(online)
posts: 3,712
joined: 1-12-2006
What is the real nature of reality?

Is it:

a) Just purely physical reality. There's no such thing as God, angels, devils, reincarnation, UFOs, etc. etc. etc… Thats it. We're just evolved from apes. No souls. We're just a bunch of chemical reactions and accidents that just happen because they happen.

b) Its just us, and there's heaven and hell. You go to heaven if you are good and unquestioningly obey the religion. You'd go to heaven for all eternity. And you go to hell if you are bad and disobey/question the religion. For all eternity you'd be locked up in hell.

c) There are many realities/dimensions all co-existing in the same place and the same time. Just like a radio station. All that you see is just part of the frequency that your eyes can perceive… because your eyes are just limited. Heaven and hell are symbolic. Heaven is just a reality that is much better than this current reality, and hell is a reality that is worse than this. And your reincarnation into a particular reality is proportional to your spiritual evolution.


This topic of the nature of reality isnt one of those philosophical discussions that have no effect on human actions and the rest of the world.

Think about it. People would base their ACTIONS according to their BELIEF SYSTEM. For example, if you are convinced that you'd go to heaven after killing a few infidels, suicide bombing is no problem to you.

If you are convinced that killing abortion doctors is doing the will of God, then bombing their clinics is no problem to you.

If you are convinced that the whole world is stacked against you and your religion, you'd have no problem when your particular group/religion does things that hurt other people.

If you are convinced that there is nothing more to this life and you're nothing but an accident and a bunch of chemicals put together randomly for no reason, then you'd have no problem being materialistic and seeing other people as mere objects.


But if you are convinced that every human being is a consciousness… would you still justify causing harm to them because of a difference in race, religion, sex, place of origin, etc. etc. etc.?

For example, I have this cousin who has this drinking and drug problem, is a womanizer, and has a string of problems with the law and with other family members. Because he knows he's just an illegitimate child. Because he knows his father didnt marry his mother and just fucked her out of fun… and out he came into this world.

What if it is implanted to his head that he is just a soul/consciousness and his physical body is just like an external casing? That his nature of coming into this world is just one of many ways to get into this reality. THAT HIS BEING AN ILLEGITIMATE CHILD HAS NO EFFECT ON THE NATURE OF HIS SOUL AND OF HIS BODY. I dont think he'd be doing stupid things.

Because after all, this life is just a ride.


What if it is implanted on EVERY HUMAN ON EARTH that our true nature is a spirit. I think stupid things based on discrimination will be completely gone. And the whole human race will be on a path to an evolution in consciousness.

Free from the imprisonment of their minds.

Free from the secular and religious matrix.




NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:26PM
mapaghimagsik at 8:19AM, May 14, 2008
(offline)
posts: 711
joined: 9-8-2006
Thanks for making those nice neat pockets to slide everyone into. I wouldn't have been able to stereotype myself without them.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
poinko at 8:25AM, May 14, 2008
(online)
posts: 31
joined: 6-17-2007
Someone's been watching ‘Pokémon: The First Movie’
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:46PM
ozoneocean at 8:25AM, May 14, 2008
(online)
posts: 24,995
joined: 1-2-2004
I think this is one of Kyupol's best thought out, intelligent posts in the debate forum. :)
I've nothing much to add but it was an interesting read and it's nice to see his take on those things.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:31PM
arteestx at 8:36AM, May 14, 2008
(online)
posts: 285
joined: 6-1-2007
kyupol
What is the real nature of reality?
In your post, you go through many definitions of reality. Physical reality as part of the external universe (ie, this desk in front of me exists whether or not I “believe” in it or admit it's there). But you seem to be asking more about nonphysical reality, that what we believe is true influences our actions. That kind of reality is what we make of it. That kind of reality is subjective and relative.

To believe that another person is “worthwhile” or not, that depends totally on what you find worthy. A knickknack on my shelf may hold great worth to me because of what it means to me, the memories it evokes in me, the significance I place upon it, whereas to you it's just junk. That knickknack does not have absolute worth in any sense outside of myself. The worthwhileness of humanity or the environment or countries is only what we individually (and collectively together) place upon it.

But acknowledging that doesn't diminish its worthwhileness. I know that knickknack doesn't mean anything to you, but it still is precious to me. I know that not eveyone shares my views of the environment or sees it exactly the same, but that doesn't mean I don't have a view or that it's not meaningful to me. I love someone else, and while you may like this person or acknowledge their right to exist, you don't see this person the same as me, you don't care or love them like I do. But it doesn't mean I don't feel love. Relative truth doesn't mean it's not true for us.

kyupol
What if I dont think he'd be doing stupid things.
No matter how wonderful, noble, true, uplifting, or magnificent the idea that we believe deeply and truly down to our bones, there ain't nothing that's going to prevent us flawed, finite, mortal humans from doing stupid things. Sorry.


Xolta is not intended for anyone under 18 years old.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:02AM
bravo1102 at 3:53PM, May 14, 2008
(online)
posts: 3,323
joined: 1-21-2008
arteestx
No matter how wonderful, noble, true, uplifting, or magnificent the idea that we believe deeply and truly down to our bones, there ain't nothing that's going to prevent us flawed, finite, mortal humans from doing stupid things. Sorry.

But using logic, reason and critical thinking we poor humans can at least try really hard not to do or believe in stupid things. Evaluation of evidence helps in keeping those weird beliefs from forming. Doesn't stop it, but it helps.
http://www.csicop.org/si/9012/critical-thinking.html
http://www.csicop.org/si/9505/belief.html

Good read : Why People believe Weird Things by Michael Shermer.

last edited on July 14, 2011 11:33AM
mapaghimagsik at 5:23PM, May 14, 2008
(offline)
posts: 711
joined: 9-8-2006
bravo1102
But using logic, reason and critical thinking we poor humans can at least try really hard not to do or believe in stupid things. Evaluation of evidence helps in keeping those weird beliefs from forming. Doesn't stop it, but it helps.
http://www.csicop.org/si/9012/critical-thinking.html
http://www.csicop.org/si/9505/belief.html

Good read : Why People believe Weird Things by Michael Shermer.



If you haven't seen “Fog of War”, you might want to give it a looksee. Robert S Mcnamera was and is a very sharp, very brilliant man. It did not stop him from being on the architects of the vietnam war, and then later regretting it and realizing the domino theory was completely bunk.

Being smart does help prevent from doing stupid things, but there's something else – other qualities that assist. I think empathy plays a part, as does compassion. I think introspection is another piece of the puzzle.

But if I knew the whole answer, Mcnamera would probably be asking me what it is, but that's not happening.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
kyupol at 6:23PM, May 14, 2008
(online)
posts: 3,712
joined: 1-12-2006
I agree with the critical thinking part. Critical thinking is an important thing everyone needs to learn.

To arrive at these tentative conclusions I posted in the 1st post on this thread, it took some amount of critical thinking.

But on the other hand, I am not too over-skeptical to a point where I deny something that already unfolds in front of my eyes. lol I wanna put up a comic strip about that concept one of these days. About this guy who gets punched in the face, and still believes he wasnt punched in the face. lol!
NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:26PM
cartoonprofessor at 7:34PM, May 14, 2008
(online)
posts: 396
joined: 9-2-2007
Interesting subject Kyupol.

Critical thinking is something that far too few humans practice, as the news media knows well… and constantly takes advantage of.

Common sense seems far too rare to be called ‘common’… rather it should be called, ‘uncommon sense’.

As to reality… as said by others, it depends on your point of view. If there is such a thing as one true ‘Reality’, no humans live in it… rather each of us percieves it through various filters, according to our own knowledge, personality, indoctrination, etc.

Not to go all, ‘The Secret’ on us, but there is value in the laws of attraction.
If you remain in a state of happiness you tend to ‘create’ situations where your happiness is justified. Personally, I believe your mind state determines your environment, not so much through psychic manifestation, but rather through decision making processes determined by this mind state.

For instance, a fear of falling from a height may cause the fear to ‘come true’ because this fear caused hesitation and lack of confidence when climbing a tree.

Whereas, a state of happiness and positivity is more likely to create a confident, strong climb.

last edited on July 14, 2011 11:36AM
kyupol at 9:34AM, May 15, 2008
(online)
posts: 3,712
joined: 1-12-2006
Not to go all, ‘The Secret’ on us, but there is value in the laws of attraction.

I remember my 1st time watching “The Secret”. Of course, I was just laughing at it because I thought its just so utterly stupid. I brushed it off.

Then a psychiatrist told me to see it (There was this time when I was totally depressed and wanted to kill myself so I kept seeing a psychiatrist). That is when I started having second thoughts.

Still… I doubted the psychiatrist.

But the next thing I observed was my failure of a driving test. I took that test FOUR TIMES before getting my drivers license.

I failed 3 times because of what you can call “bad luck” with the yellow light, the lane change, pedestrians, overspeeding trucks, etc. But was it my preoccupation of entertaining thoughts that I will fail, that caused me to fail three times?!?

Ironically, it was the 4th time when the examiner was really giving me a hard time. The test route was long. I was on the road for half an hour when a road test is normally suppose to be 15 minutes. But I ended up passing. Because I wasnt entertaining thoughts too much on failure.

In other instances though, I noticed that even in simple things like playing Half-Life 2. If I'm not in a good mood, and thinking all the time that I'll die, my score isnt too good. But if I'm in a good mood with the thought of being at the top of the list, 95% of the time, I AM at the top of the list and I get accused of cheating.


That is why now, I'm also convinced that it could be YOU who creates your own reality to a certain extent. And your thoughts to an extent, can influence the outcome of an event.
NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:26PM
StaceyMontgomery at 10:18AM, May 15, 2008
(offline)
posts: 520
joined: 4-7-2007
All those people with cancer? It's their fault!

All those poor people throughout history? They all deserved it!

That woman who got attacked the other night? She made her own reality!

Those people killed in that Earthquake? Their bad thoughts attracted the tremblor!


Does our attitude affect the way we perform at video games? Sure.
But do our thoughts create the reality around us? No. That brick wall is solid no matter how sure you are that you can walk right through it.

Here - I'm making a reality in my mind that you all owe me $10 each. I'm really focused on it!




last edited on July 14, 2011 3:55PM
subcultured at 11:53AM, May 15, 2008
(online)
posts: 5,392
joined: 1-7-2006
a person may create their own reality, but it also stands that realities interject and mingle.

beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
the beholder can only twist the vision so much until it schisms into a different reality that the beholder can no longer see. beauty is after all just molecules forming a whole where it can be observed by most reality.

A sum of all different realities attached together in a similar experience to form the real world. It can be equated as atoms merging together to form what most consider beautiful.
J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:03PM
kyupol at 6:12PM, May 15, 2008
(online)
posts: 3,712
joined: 1-12-2006
StaceyMontgomery
All those people with cancer? It's their fault!

All those poor people throughout history? They all deserved it!

That woman who got attacked the other night? She made her own reality!

Those people killed in that Earthquake? Their bad thoughts attracted the tremblor!


Does our attitude affect the way we perform at video games? Sure.
But do our thoughts create the reality around us? No. That brick wall is solid no matter how sure you are that you can walk right through it.

Here - I'm making a reality in my mind that you all owe me $10 each. I'm really focused on it!

Read my last sentence again:

That is why now, I'm also convinced that it could be YOU who creates your own reality to a certain extent. And your thoughts to an extent, can influence the outcome of an event.

I believe this law of attraction thing to a certain extent. I've heard about a theory of how the pyramids were built that puts forth the idea that a bunch of ancient egyptian priests WILLED those things to manifest themselves. That's just too far out for me because it makes things like Professor X and DBZ look like noobs. That almost sounds “batshit insane” for me but I'm still like “hmmm… interesting… cool… it doesnt seem possible but I'll never dismiss something even if it sounds utterly outrageous”.

I understand where you're coming from though. Its one of those things that are hard to accept.

Initially, I was like… SO ITS MY FAULT I KEPT GETTING REJECTED BY WOMEN?!? SO ITS MY FAULT THAT I GOT BULLIED IN SCHOOL?!? SO ITS MY FAULT THAT I HAD NOT-SO-GOOD PARENTS?!? AAARRRGGGHHH!!!!

You know, it takes a degree of humility to swallow your pride and go into the drawing board stage.

And you know what, those negative things in my life were the things that drove me to question reality. Among the things I learned after were:

- my unconfident and weak appearance drove women away.
- my unconfident and weak appearance attracted bullies
- my wussyness and cowardly spineless attitude is what brought out the controlling behavior in my parents. It was until I started standing up for myself was when they started respecting me.

Therefore I am partially to blame for these undesirable outcomes. The women who rejected me, the people who bullied me, and my parents who behaved like dictators… also have their own free will, making them also at fault.

When shit happens, there isn't really a particular group of people that is completely at fault.

“But but… you and your ridiculous conspiracies. Why are you pointing a finger at those reptoids, illuminati, satan, etc. etc. etc.?!? Arent you looking for a scapegoat?!?”

All the blame doesnt gravitate to them but to also those who they managed to control.

“Walang mang-aalipin kung walang magpapa-alipin”
(There are no tyrants where there are no slaves)
-Dr. Jose Rizal-
NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:26PM
bravo1102 at 7:49PM, May 15, 2008
(online)
posts: 3,323
joined: 1-21-2008
mapaghimagsik
If you haven't seen “Fog of War”, you might want to give it a looksee. Robert S Mcnamera was and is a very sharp, very brilliant man. It did not stop him from being on the architects of the vietnam war, and then later regretting it and realizing the domino theory was completely bunk.

Being smart does help prevent from doing stupid things, but there's something else – other qualities that assist. I think empathy plays a part, as does compassion. I think introspection is another piece of the puzzle.

But if I knew the whole answer, Mcnamera would probably be asking me what it is, but that's not happening.

It's on my list, but having done my college paper on Vietnam I'm in no hurry to revisit it. McNamera was a smart guy about a lot of things, like running an automobile company. His management skills were first rate, but when it came to running a war… he didn't let the people who knew how to do it, do it. He did a lot of stupid things because he didn't properly analyze what was being shown him and he didn't know how to interpret it.

His critical thinking was skewed by what he wanted to believe and that he thought he knew more than he did. His perception became his reality and it came back to bite him on the butt because his perception wasn't reality. He was a numbers guy. Numbers don't win wars. Proper use of numbers wins wars. “Victory goes not to the big battalions, but to the best shots.”

There is a macro objective reality. My thoughts only effect me If I hold on to those thoughts others will respond to them. However, I can change them at any time and thereby change how others see me.

Also in all likelihood how you see others seeing you is wrong,. You're projecting how you feel about yourself on others.

So kyupol since you saw yourself as wimpy, you invited others to pick on you and this reinforced your perception so it became your reality. If you change your internal script you can change your life. I see myself as less worthy than others, so I put myself down and don't give myself a chance. When I do see myself as worthy, guess what? I can assert myself so others won't take advantage. It really works and everything.

Self-perception creates your emotional reality, and how you interpret the world. But there is an objective reality outside of you on a macro level. You interact with it everyday and how you do so is ruled by your emotional perception, but that doesn't mean that you emotional perception is a correct interpretation of what is happening.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:33AM
cartoonprofessor at 9:31PM, May 15, 2008
(online)
posts: 396
joined: 9-2-2007
bravo1102
Self-perception creates your emotional reality, and how you interpret the world. But there is an objective reality outside of you on a macro level. You interact with it everyday and how you do so is ruled by your emotional perception, but that doesn't mean that you emotional perception is a correct interpretation of what is happening.
Well said.
But your emotional perception is correct for you… and in the end, that is all that matters.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:36AM
RabbitMaster at 5:29AM, June 12, 2008
(online)
posts: 129
joined: 5-26-2007
I spent my teen years (15-21) immersed in philosophy. I read everything I could get my hands on from ‘Socrates to Sarte’ as the saying goes. I looked at Hinduism and even got into a lot of New Age stuff which has its basis in eastern philosophy. Time would fail me to tell of all the roads I ran down seeking soem sort of enlightenment.I noticed a couple of things (especially after age 21 when I concluded what the nature of reality actually was); I noticed that a lot of philosophers apparently became philosophers because it didn't involve any heavy lifting. I noticed that a lot of philosophers (and their followers) weren't really about finding any answers, it was more fun to sit around the coffee shop and ask questions. I found that 99% of the world's philosophies start with a couple of basic and common assumptions. I also found that most people want to be their own authority when it comes to the nature of reality. They have way that is right in their own eyes and they're just looking around for someone as smart as them who agrees with them. When you refer to an absolute authority outside of their own wisdom and point to it as the one true source of truth independent of anyone's opinion of it, they tend to reject that, Apparently that's human nature. Oh well.

“Perhaps you would care to try your villany on a less defenseless opponent?”–Kung Fu Rabbit
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:57PM

Forgot Password
©2011 WOWIO, Inc. All Rights Reserved