Debate and Discussion

The New World Order...
kyupol at 10:01AM, Dec. 31, 2007
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Is there really a shadowy government in existence? That allegedly calls the shots and projects power in the USA and UK… with limited presence in Canada, Australia, and across Europe?

Are they the ones behind things like:
- The creation of AIDS - originally intended for population control and extermination of Black people.

- Starting wars in the middle east. Because Islam is strict with pre-marital sex and homosexuality, aids will not spread and therefore wont decimate their populations. That is why it serves the NWO's interest to set the middle eastern countries against each other.

- Being behind 9-11 and other things like Virginia Tech and Columbine. The purpose is to scare the population into submission and trusting them as ‘big brothers’. And to justify taking away liberties through the use of ‘mind-controlled assassins’.


Theres also other mentions of the Asian version (composed of Chinese, Japanese, and other Asian elite) of the Illuminati that acts like a buffer zone against the New World Order. They supposedly warned the New World Order that if they do anything to attempt to reduce their populations, they will go to war with them.


There's also other mentions of the New World Order collaborating with Demonic forces or Reptilian and Grey aliens. Also the true reason for invading Iraq was not about oil but to gain access to so-called ‘stargates’ left behind by the Annunaki (the alleged ‘gods’ worshipped by the ancient Mesopotamians now present day Iran and Iraq). And while the millions of muslims pray to Allah to punish the infidelds, their prayers will be heard by the Annunaki who will go to war with the New World Order and drive them out of the middle east. On the other hand, the New World Order will unleash never before seen weapons to fight the Annunaki.

And then there's this stuff from Christian magazines demonizing Russia and China. That communism is not dead. That Russia and China (and possibly Muslims) are collaborating with the Devil and THEY are the true ‘New World Order’.


Or maybe… Is all of this the product of overactive imaginations? A result of bombardment by science fiction movies?

What is the ‘New World Order’?

NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:25PM
mapaghimagsik at 10:35AM, Dec. 31, 2007
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*sigh*

This all really boils down to “there are many competing interests”.

Until you identify who you think *should* be calling the shots, this is a bit of conspiracy talk.

last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
ozoneocean at 10:37AM, Dec. 31, 2007
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Well done on making the topic Kyupol :)

As to the question though, it sounds a lot like David Ike's ideas. I don't think there's any credence to any of it because the logic of all those things (AIDS, war etc), make a LOT more sense in the way we conventionally understand them. Adding a layer of conspiracy doesn't make things clearer, it actually makes them less logical, more complicated and harder to understand- which isn't what should happen if you were really finding out why things work the way they do.

It's like saying magic makes bread rise in the oven instead of yeast. On the face of it that'd seem a simpler explanation, but understanding the yeast process is actually pretty straight forward, whereas “magic” is… impossible.

The real question is why do people feel the need to come up with and latch on to these “secret government” theories? I would think it stems from a frustration at not being able to understand the complicated workings of the real world, so some people use the “secret government” theories as an easier way to do that, without realising the logic behind it is far more convoluted and unworkable.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:29PM
crazyninny at 10:51AM, Dec. 31, 2007
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This is a topic Dale from ‘King of the Hill’ would be loving.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:48AM
TitanOne at 12:18PM, Dec. 31, 2007
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Many things attributed to the “New World Order” are goof/conspiracy mumbo-jumbo. For example, the anti-semitic crapola, the stuff about freemasonry, and lots of other things are wacko, off the wall, “fruity as a nutcake”, as Captain Kirk would say.

On the other hand the ‘New World Order’ itself is real, and wields influence on our various governments in myriad ways. It's a policy consortium that promotes government-managed free trade (an oxymoron, since government-managed-anything is not “free”), dissolution of national sovereignty, and it promotes one world governance. Its primary policy group in the US is the Council on Foreign Relations.

The Council on Foreign Relations was not made up by the John Birch Society–its members often appear on cable TV news shows, are represented in government, media, and thinktanks, and the CFR has its own official website: www.cfr.org

The term “New World Order” was not invented by Alex Jones or David Ickes, it was coined by George Herbert Walker Bush in 1991:

Now, we can see a new world coming into view. A world in which there is the very real prospect of a new world order. In the words of Winston Churchill, a “world order” in which “the principles of justice and fair play … protect the weak against the strong …” A world where the United Nations, freed from cold war stalemate, is poised to fulfil the historic vision of its founders.


How bad that is depends upon how much you dislike the idea of the United States being Globocop, as it now is currently in Iraq. Because the United Nations is really just a sock puppet for the US military-industrial complex and those who manipulate public opinion in internationalist circles.

There is also a real ‘shadow government’, as was revealed by the Bush Administration shortly after 9-11. Again, “shadow government” has been their term–it was publicly used during the immediate post-9-11, “protect your home with duct tape” period.

How conspiratorial it is, is debatable–IMHO, the only thing “conspiracy” about it that I can see is that they hide their various agendae from the public, and often lie brazenly about them.

For example, in response to accusations on the Internet, the White House has steadfastly denied plans for a NAFTA Superhighway (cold, factual reality–known as the ‘Trans Texas Corridor’, the subject of official votes in the Texas legislature), or a North American Union/Amero superstate (also cold, factual reality–recently confirmed as true in print by Mexico's ex-president, Vicente Fox).



last edited on July 14, 2011 4:30PM
TitanOne at 12:41PM, Dec. 31, 2007
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ozoneocean
As to the question though, it sounds a lot like David I©ke's ideas. I don't think there's any credence to any of it because the logic of all those things (AIDS, war etc), make a LOT more sense in the way we conventionally understand them. Adding a layer of conspiracy doesn't make things clearer, it actually makes them less logical, more complicated and harder to understand- which isn't what should happen if you were really finding out why things work the way they do.

It's like saying magic makes bread rise in the oven instead of yeast. On the face of it that'd seem a simpler explanation, but understanding the yeast process is actually pretty straight forward, whereas “magic” is… impossible.

Yep..on the other hand, “magic” doesn't have its own official website. ;)

last edited on July 14, 2011 4:30PM
DAJB at 2:38PM, Dec. 31, 2007
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There may well be “shadow governments” in many or even all countries but a single shadow government for the whole of the western world? Please! They'd never agree on anything!

I used to work with a group of guys including several from various Eastern and Central European countries. Whenever some major event happened, the guys from the former Soviet countries would all see a government conspiracy behind it; the guys from the western European countries would all see a government cock-up behind it.

Looking at the standard of competence of most politicians, I still subscribe to the cock-up theory rather than the conspiracy one!
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:03PM
CharleyHorse at 6:20PM, Dec. 31, 2007
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TitanOne pretty much lays out the format of what we have working on us or against us in the United States. But others are correct in that there is no uber organization moving the entire western world in one direction.

So in that respect the big business conspiracy to control the United States through – well pretty much anyway – the republican party is utterly no different than the sort of thing that has happened within the borders of any powerful nation throughout history. All that makes this particular time period nearly unique for the United States is the current open and above board aspect of the big business inspired movement. They barely make any effort to hide their tracks at all, and they are generally speaking damn clumsy at pushing through their self-centered goals. There's a whole lot of delicate eggs getting smashed to smithereens of late in order to create a few choice and tasty omelets for a tiny minority of U.S. centered movers and shakers. It's the sheer open and above board arrogance and incompetence that I find breath-taking.

Still, what is in the best interests of a handful of elite movers and shakers in the United States definitely may not be in the best interests of their counterparts in Great Britain or France, Germany, or Italy for that matter. So an all encompassing world wide conspiracy? No, I don't think so. A very powerful home grown one in the United States? Yep, I definitely think so.

Bet you could find the same sort of thing happening in Australia and Japan though.

last edited on July 14, 2011 11:40AM
ozoneocean at 2:30AM, Jan. 1, 2008
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Oh there will always be family groups, business groups, lobby groups, religious groups, study groups, and so on, that would like to control the course of events anywhere in particular to their own advantage, but their influence will always be limited to their own little corner of the world. The further they stray from that the more dissipated it becomes.

Look at the most obvious, most striking example: The “neo-cons” in Washington. They have big ideas about how to influence the course of events in the world, but even though they could bring to bear influence to make things like the invasion of Iraq happen, Pakistan's crackdown on the religious tribal areas, continued support for right-wing elements in South and Central America (Mexico, Anti Chavez groups in Venezuela, Support for the Columbian regime), backing the Ethiopians to invade and occupy Somalia and so on, even with all that very open and obvious tampering in world affair they still fail miserably to achieve any world controlling results.
As of yet anyway. :P

As a lot of people have said, I think if you want the “conspiracies”, you have to look for more down to earth things; within the boarders of countries, not without.

Pakistan is a great example. We hear about the trouble there, Martial Law, a former president being assassinated, the courts not supporting the current president, but what's the real story?
To know what's really happening there you have to understand the destabilising corrosive, contradictory influence of US foreign policy there, the rising tide of hard-line Islamic militancy in reaction to it and Pevez Mushaef's accommodation of US interests, and beneath all of that is an ingrained system of “democratic aristocracy”: the family's of the country's former “democratic” leaders control the country and command their own blocks of tribe-like loyalty among the citizens and the courts.

It's a very complicated story, but even so, we have our idiots in the press simplifying it into a military conspiracy… Jebus.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:29PM
donkas at 4:03AM, Jan. 1, 2008
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as long as there is bread on the table and bread for tomorrow people wont care about these types of things.

they might talk about it,but no one will take it serioulsy
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:13PM
TitanOne at 9:44AM, Jan. 1, 2008
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donkas
as long as there is bread on the table and bread for tomorrow people wont care about these types of things.

they might talk about it,but no one will take it serioulsy

Which is OK…I think being taken seriously is something they want. The most dangerous thing about them is their bad ideas.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:30PM
albone at 1:35PM, Jan. 1, 2008
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Going off of Ozone's post, and taking it a step further, in the example of Pakistan….should we have the same coverage of Pakistan and its politics as say, Iraq for the last 20 years, we probably would have a different view on them. It all comes down to information and being informed.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 10:48AM
cartoonprofessor at 5:53PM, Jan. 2, 2008
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CharleyHorse
… So an all encompassing world wide conspiracy? No, I don't think so. A very powerful home grown one in the United States? Yep, I definitely think so.

Bet you could find the same sort of thing happening in Australia and Japan though.


If by the term, ‘conspiracy’ you mean manipulation ‘behind-the-scenes’ and without public disclosure events… ABSOLUTELY!

Worldwide? Well yeah, in that big business is no longer confined to any one country (and hasn't been for decades, perhaps centuries (depending on how you look at it).

And yes, Australia has its fair share of media control and ‘spin’… which is after all, absolutely necessary to anyone attempting to influence events. (Rupert Murdoch is originally an aussie after all.)

If anyone is niaive enough to believe governments really pull the strings and make the ‘important’ decisions unhindered by ‘behind-the-scenes-powerbrokers’, well…

A good example of true ‘conspiracy’ is the US banking system. It is truly shocking that the ‘leader of the free world’s' central bank is not even owned by its own citizens!

I believe its only healthy to follow the more rational ‘conspiracy theories’. One should always question and look for all possible motives behind everything that happens, whether its a new war, or a a new law.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:36AM
albone at 8:42AM, Jan. 3, 2008
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Or do you think their is a connection between the New World Order being discussed here and the old wrestling group, the NWO with Hollywood Hulk Hogan, Big Sexy Kevin Nash and Scott Hall?!

We'd be in serious trouble if these guys were running the world.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 10:48AM
ozoneocean at 9:36AM, Jan. 3, 2008
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Jesse Ventura made a start on that at least… :P

The most annoying conspiracy theories are the ones about Jews controlling the world. You'd think that after what happened in WWII that people would think twice before propagating those stupid ideas.

Or what about Dan Brown? A writer of lame popular fiction manages to spawn or popularise yet another “world control” theory, and people are so lacking in historical, cultural and general knowledge about the world that they latch on to that one as well.

Truly, these ideas attract the ignorant because they supply simple answers to life's complicated concepts.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:29PM
mapaghimagsik at 12:06PM, Jan. 3, 2008
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Dan Brown is a horrible writer, and yet people continue to read his crap. The only reason he's popular is because its who *they* want you to read.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
ozoneocean at 9:44AM, Jan. 4, 2008
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mapaghimagsik
Dan Brown is a horrible writer, and yet people continue to read his crap. The only reason he's popular is because its who *they* want you to read.
ha ha ha! :P

But true after a fashion funnily enough. The publishing companies love a big smash hit like that, and they'll do their best to make sure such a book becomes one.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:29PM
albone at 10:20AM, Jan. 7, 2008
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Dan Brown is writing fiction, and should be treated as such. Max Brooks wrote ‘The Zombie Survival Guide,’ and ‘World War Z’ as ‘fact-based’ books too, but it's only fiction.

I mean….uh, right?
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Phantom Penguin at 7:56PM, Jan. 7, 2008
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To think the NWO exists would mean you think people from all those different countries get along enough to come up with the ideas stated above.

A global rule system would mean (I would imagine) theres a leader from the US,Canada,UK,Australia, ect, ect. And would also mean they would have to see eye to eye on everything, those countries can't really agree on anything besides “they support one another.” which really doesn't mean much.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:42PM
TitanOne at 2:47AM, Jan. 19, 2008
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Phantom Penguin
To think the NWO exists would mean you think people from all those different countries get along enough to come up with the ideas stated above.

A global rule system would mean (I would imagine) theres a leader from the US,Canada,UK,Australia, ect, ect. And would also mean they would have to see eye to eye on everything, those countries can't really agree on anything besides “they support one another.” which really doesn't mean much.

That's the goal, however, ‘One World’ under one unified banner. I don't think it's desirable or in any way realistic, but that's the goal of the presumed “New World Order”, which is a real elite political consortium. (Not a conspiracy.)

As I said, they have their own website. They hold meetings and conferences every year.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:30PM
StaceyMontgomery at 6:24AM, Jan. 19, 2008
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if you've ever read a good mystery, you know there's a real thrill - a sort of rush - that comes when you figure it out, when the puzzle pieces fall into place, and suddenly order springs up out of what had been chaos. It feels good.

Our brains are work this way. We see chaos, we look for order. We look for patterns. And it's fun.

And so, we just keep finding them.

The reason we have so many conspiracy theories and religions is that we are always, always trying to make sense of the universe.

Of course, some conspiracy theories turn out to be true - but not many. Perhaps some religions are true too. Some of the patterns we find must be true, after all.

But in general - it's good to remember all this before you decide to tie everything up in one grand theory, along the lines of the Original Post.

Or, you could do the old fashioned thing and present, you know, evidence. The key to Conspiracy theories - as opposed to uncovering actual conspiracies - is in phrases like “Wow, there must be a connection!”

last edited on July 14, 2011 3:55PM
imshard at 8:43AM, Jan. 19, 2008
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Follow the money, young padawans. It all leads back to the Bilderberg Group. Every man who was ever elected president attended one of their meetings a year before-hand. Do your own googling on it. NOTE: the wiki article is inaccurate.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 12:58PM
cartoonprofessor at 3:58PM, Jan. 28, 2008
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imshard
Follow the money, young padawans. It all leads back to the Bilderberg Group. Every man who was ever elected president attended one of their meetings a year before-hand. Do your own googling on it. NOTE: the wiki article is inaccurate.

It's always about money… money and power… the two are the same thing after all.

It would be so easy if everything was controlled by the reptilians, or the bilderbergers, or the neo-cons.

The ‘Powers-That-Be’ are confused human beings with their own various psychosis… humans who tend to try to manipulate events and circumstance so as to maintain their own status quo… and yes, even stage events to achieve their goals.

Sometimes the ‘spin’ applied to these events achieve these goals, other times they spin out of control like a helicopter that's lost its tail rotor.

These people must lead extremely stressed out lives, the more you try to manipulate the more manipulation you must do and the bigger the monster grows.

It would be like playing chess on the grandest scale imaginable, except the pieces aren't limited by specific moves, new pieces join the board, and you are playing a multitude of opponents, some you aren't even aware of…

Is it in the Tao where it is said the more you try to control events the less control you have?
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:36AM
mishi_hime at 6:06PM, Jan. 28, 2008
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albone
Dan Brown is writing fiction, and should be treated as such. Max Brooks wrote ‘The Zombie Survival Guide,’ and ‘World War Z’ as ‘fact-based’ books too, but it's only fiction.

I mean….uh, right?


That's the impression I was under.
i mean the possibility that there's a huge shadow government is possible, but then again isn't anything possible in that respect? It's nothing you can determine by yourself.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:03PM
imshard at 8:57PM, Jan. 28, 2008
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imshard
Follow the money, young padawans. It all leads back to the Bilderberg Group. Every man who was ever elected president attended one of their meetings a year before-hand. Do your own googling on it. NOTE: the wiki article is inaccurate.

It's always about money… money and power… the two are the same thing after all.

It would be so easy if everything was controlled by the reptilians, or the bilderbergers, or the neo-cons.

The ‘Powers-That-Be’ are confused human beings with their own various psychosis… humans who tend to try to manipulate events and circumstance so as to maintain their own status quo… and yes, even stage events to achieve their goals.

Sometimes the ‘spin’ applied to these events achieve these goals, other times they spin out of control like a helicopter that's lost its tail rotor.

These people must lead extremely stressed out lives, the more you try to manipulate the more manipulation you must do and the bigger the monster grows.

It would be like playing chess on the grandest scale imaginable, except the pieces aren't limited by specific moves, new pieces join the board, and you are playing a multitude of opponents, some you aren't even aware of…

Is it in the Tao where it is said the more you try to control events the less control you have?

Philosophy doesn't negate the existence of consortia that can and do exist, which dictate policy and guard their own power jealously. You speak reason and logic, but I cannot deny something I have seen with my own eyes ~ 100-200 of the world's richest and most powerful people walk into closed meetings secret from the public. There is too much empirical data available to outright dimiss some conspiracy theories. After all most of them have at least some root in reality.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 12:58PM
cartoonprofessor at 4:43AM, Jan. 29, 2008
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OH yes, these people operate best in packs.
I was not denying their existence, far from it, only commenting on how frustrating it must be to live like they do.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:36AM
Calbeck at 5:29AM, Jan. 29, 2008
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I believe its only healthy to follow the more rational ‘conspiracy theories’. One should always question and look for all possible motives behind everything that happens, whether its a new war, or a a new law.

Absolutely. Theory is an indisputably valuable tool in terms of framing questions and helping to organize data.

The problem is when “conspiracy theory” becomes someone's idea of “fact” without actually qualifying.

As an example, I went inside the Militia Movement in the ‘90s doing my own independent investigation. I posed as the leader of the fictional “First Arizona Volunteers, Federal Unorganized Militia” and in this guise spent more than two years talking to militia leaders in person and over the Internet as “one of them”.

I discovered that most of these people were not anti-government, anarchists, or crackpots — about 80%-90% of any given group considered themselves to be staunch Constitutionalists and that the formation of militias was an act of “collective defense” made necessary by the actions of the federal government at Waco and Ruby Ridge. Here, they believed that excessive violence had been used in the pursuit of gun control, resulting in unnecessary civilian deaths, and as gun owners they saw this as a direct threat possibly to their own lives and/or civil rights.

Given what has since come to light about both incidents, which confirmed much of what was believed to be true at the time, this was not altogether an unreasonable reaction. And given that the overwhelmingly prevailing view was that starting a shooting war without sufficient government provocation would destroy any pretense of public support, the militias remained quiescient.

The other 10%-20% of their numbers, however, were a hotbed of conspiracy theory centering around many of the same “threats” I’m hearing brought up in this very thread — such as the “New World Order” and the Bilderbergs. They spent most of their time trying to instigate violence with fearmongering. I spent much of my time opposing these people and, naturally, becoming targeted as “the enemy” by the ACTUAL anarchists, anti-government “Patriots” and outright crackpots.

I find it ironic that the Left and Right extremes tend to believe in the same conspiracy theories, differing only in terms of blaming each other as being the ones Behind It All. -:/
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:35AM
imshard at 1:32PM, Jan. 30, 2008
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Take 2 hours, sit down and view this video. Listen without bias or preconception, then discuss. It is one of the most well thought-out universal conspiracy theories I've seen.

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/
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last edited on July 14, 2011 12:58PM
kyupol at 3:23PM, Jan. 30, 2008
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I also think there is also alot of disinfo going on.

I believe the NWO exists.

But the stuff that sound too outrageous sound like disinfo to me. Think about it. If I am the supreme dictator of the world, how would I discredit or get rid of those who blow the whistle on my evil plans?

solution 1: round em up and shoot em or imprison em Stalin style
Not a good idea. It will only validate my opponents. It will only put me in a bad position and threatens my power.

However it may seem ok only against targeted specific individuals who know too much. Such as those who can provide details of what is really going on in area 51.


solution 2: Spread disinformation
A more peaceful solution because no need to round em up. Saves bullets and jail space and land. Those bodies need to be dumped somewhere.

All I have to do is have my propaganda machine spread disinfo about crazy theories such as:
- The earth is secretly controlled by reptoids. The general public's reaction would be like: ‘AHAHAHAHA WHAT KIND OF CRACKPOT THINKS AND BELIEVES THAT SPACE LIZARDS ACTUALLY CONTROL THE WORLD!!!’

- 9-11 was caused by small nukes or an alien space beam or super secret technology that uses sound or light or chakra or anything. There was really no plane really hit the WTC. The public reaction: “WHAT KIND OF IDIOTS THESE CONSPIRACY THEORISTS ARE?!? EVERYONE SAW THAT A PLANE HIT THE WTC!!!”

Think about it. The illuminati are not illumanti for nothing. If I can think of clever ways to protect my dictatorship, then what more with them.


NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:25PM
imshard at 4:24PM, Jan. 30, 2008
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Alex Jone's is the conspiracy king in my book.

"We shall have World Government, whether or not we like it. The only question is whether World Government will be achieved by conquest or consent.� James Paul Warburg (1896-1969) - industrialist and international banker.
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