Debate and Discussion

They're doing WHAT?
subcultured at 2:04PM, March 28, 2007
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Custard Trout
Raising the age is NOT GOING TO SOLVE THAT. You'll just have older people becoming alcoholics instead. If that's your opinion, then why not ban it completely? Hey, people can have accidents in cars! Better ban those too, oh, and chocolate, can't have that around. Why don't we just live in boxes all our lives? Nothing bad can happen then. You seem very left wing, but you're as close minded as a die hard conservative. Kind of ironic really.

i'm sorry, but where do you get your conclusions from?
my POV comes from studies and statistics.
I don't have or ever will have my views define by bird appendages

http://www.reutershealth.com/wellconnected/doc56.html
Drinking in Adolescence. Currently 1.9 million young people between the ages of 12 and 20 are considered heavy drinkers and 4.4 million are binge drinkers. Anyone who begins drinking in adolescence is at risk for developing alcoholism. Young people at highest risk for early drinking are those with a history of abuse, family violence, depression, and stressful life events. People with a family history of alcoholism are also more likely to begin drinking before the age of 20 and to become alcoholic. Such adolescent drinkers are also more apt to underestimate the effects of drinking and to make judgment errors, such as going on binges or driving after drinking, than young drinkers without a family history of alcoholism.
J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:01PM
Black_Kitty at 3:49PM, March 28, 2007
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I'm an educator so I have nothing against education. I wouldn't be an educator if I didn't believe in education itself.

But I think in this particular issue, it's highly overrated. I would much rather see the law changed AND more education. To have one and not the other decreases its effectiveness.

I teach teenagers and none of them struck me as so stupid that they don't realize alcohol can make them drunk. I just came back from a day of classes where one student just reeked of weed. I would never wonder if she thought she was smoking ginseng and mistakenly picked up weed instead.

This is not to say that they know everything or that education is pointless. But to assume that people who indulge in things like alcohol and cigarettes are uneducated is misguided at best. Many smokers actually know about the negative aspects of smoking. They choose to do it anyway. I've never met anyone who looked forward to being an alcoholic or isn't aware that drinking heavily can lead to impairment.

The argument that lowering the age will make people attack those who sell alcohol or delay irresponsible use of alcohol strikes me as rather…silly…truthfully. If anything, both of those arguments tell me that people in that particular age group would be prone to irresponsible behaviour should they not get their way. They also tell me that none of them should be allowed to drive. If you can't be responsible for yourself and your behaviour, then you should not be put in control of a one ton vehicle. It isn't personal and it's not punishment. It's for the safety of everyone else in society. So if you're going to tell me that people will get upset and attack people because they can't have alcohol? Then I suggest raising the age for driving as well. In fact, you can keep your alcohol. Just stay away from the car.

I just want to stress that laws like this aren't designed to completely erraticate drinking among minors. But it does have its effect. Back when I was a frosh, alcohol was served during frosh week. Now that students are no longer required to attend high school for five years, most of the students who enter university are underage. Therefore, the university has banned alcohol from frosh parties. Sure you can sneak in some beer here and there but that's drastically different from having keg parties on campus grounds.

I'm not 100% sure but if it's found that you've knowingly served minors alcohol, you could endanger your liquor license. And if you're where I live, most alcohol is sold at two store chains only and those are controlled by the government. The government is not going to sell you alcohol if you're a minor. Yes you can find someone to get it for you but you're going to have to find that someone first.

I seriously hope all of you vote. The age group we're talking about in particular is well known to have a very low voter turnout rate. If you care about what the government does and you want a government that represents you, then you need to go out and vote. If you don't care what government comes into power, then why be surprised by what the government does?
  
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:24AM
Custard Trout at 4:00PM, March 28, 2007
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subcultured
i'm sorry, but where do you get your conclusions from?
my POV comes from studies and statistics.
I don't have or ever will have my views define by bird appendages


http://www.reutershealth.com/wellconnected/doc56.html Said:
Drinking in Adolescence. Currently 1.9 million young people between the ages of 12 and 20 are considered heavy drinkers and 4.4 million are binge drinkers. Anyone who begins drinking in adolescence is at risk for developing alcoholism. Young people at highest risk for early drinking are those with a history of abuse, family violence, depression, and stressful life events. People with a family history of alcoholism are also more likely to begin drinking before the age of 20 and to become alcoholic. Such adolescent drinkers are also more apt to underestimate the effects of drinking and to make judgment errors, such as going on binges or driving after drinking, than young drinkers without a family history of alcoholism.

Aha, but what do you say to the fact that those could just be twisted to suit the needs of the writer? Or even made up completely? Don't believe everything you read mate.

Ages 12 to 20? The majority of those are underage already, so rising it to 21 is not going to help.

. . . Bird appendages? What? Yeah, anyway, I derived my conclusions from my own logic and my understanding of your argument. The point I was trying yo get across was that drinking CAN be dangerous, but so can driving (not just when under the influence), and even walking. So should we put bans on those too? Because to me, that is what you seem to suggesting.

Black_Kitty: Good point, even I know of the effects alcohol can have on me, but I choose to drink it anyway.

I know the effect this law will have, and that's why I'm against it. At 18 I will be an adult, I will be able to vote and drive (I can legally dive now in fact) so why can't I celebrate that in the traditional way? The way everyone before me has had a chance to?
Hey buddy, you should be a Russian Cosmonaut, and here's why.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:59AM
subcultured at 4:50PM, March 28, 2007
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denial, that's what you are doing.
so tell me what are some good points of allowing people to drink? other than drinking itself.

does drinking get you from point a to b like driving? so you you can't make an argument like “oh driving kills people”. that's not its true intention.

and studies and statistics are done scientifically.
if they are not then they would be guilty of fraud and people can be fined or go to jail. so you can't argue “it's all made up”.

here's some more made up statistics by reputable sources
http://alcoholism.about.com/cs/alerts/l/blnaa37.htm
A survey focusing on the alcohol-related problems experienced by 4,390 high school seniors and dropouts found that within the preceding year, approximately 80 percent reported either getting “drunk,” binge drinking, or drinking and driving. More than half said that drinking had caused them to feel sick, miss school or work, get arrested, or have a car crash

Individuals who increase their binge drinking from age 18 to 24 and those who consistently binge drink at least once a week during this period may have problems attaining the goals typical of the transition from adolescence to young adulthood (e.g., marriage, educational attainment, employment, and financial independence) (13).


J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:01PM
Custard Trout at 5:12PM, March 28, 2007
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subcultured
denial, that's what you are doing.
so tell me what are some good points of allowing people to drink? other than drinking itself.

does drinking get you from point a to b like driving? so you you can't make an argument like “oh driving kills people”. that's not its true intention.

and studies and statistics are done scientifically.
if they are not then they would be guilty of fraud and people can be fined or go to jail. so you can't argue “it's all made up”.

here's some more made up statistics by reputable sources

http://alcoholism.about.com/cs/alerts/l/blnaa37.htm Said:
A survey focusing on the alcohol-related problems experienced by 4,390 high school seniors and dropouts found that within the preceding year, approximately 80 percent reported either getting “drunk,” binge drinking, or drinking and driving. More than half said that drinking had caused them to feel sick, miss school or work, get arrested, or have a car crash

Individuals who increase their binge drinking from age 18 to 24 and those who consistently binge drink at least once a week during this period may have problems attaining the goals typical of the transition from adolescence to young adulthood (e.g., marriage, educational attainment, employment, and financial independence) (13).

I seem to remember a certain time when alcohol was banned in America. Yes, such a gleaming, wonderful time that was, speakeasies on every corner, organized crime, corruption, greed and hate. People getting murdered over something as enjoyable as booze just because someone had a vision of a clean, dry future.

Good times indeed.

You seem like the sort of person who lives his entire life in denial (believing in things like justice, duty, that people are basically decent etc).

And if we're pointing out faults, then you are too serious, what the hell happened to enjoyment? Thank god there's no one like you in charge, or we'd be mindless robots by teatime. I like to have a drink with friends now and then, why should that be a crime?

I'm going to sound immensely paranoid now, but those guidelines could just be in place to fool you. Yes, you. You seem to be forgetting that people like the Prime Minister or the President are just that, people. You seem to be forgetting that greed is a huge influence and driving force. Think of the money that could be saved if no one drank? So yes, those statistics could be made up and the government are pandering to your needs, making you think that it's somehow fair. I'm not saying it's true, but it's a possibility. You should question everything.

You see? Your opinions have been hammered into you, you think how they want you too, crushing everyone who opposes them and you don't even know it.
Hey buddy, you should be a Russian Cosmonaut, and here's why.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:59AM
subcultured at 5:21PM, March 28, 2007
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hmmm…
why do you keep attacking my character? we are discussing if alcohol is bad for you and should the age limit be raised. it's not a debate and discussion of SUBCULTURED.

Someone
I'm going to sound immensely paranoid now, but those guidelines could just be in place to fool you. Yes, you. You seem to be forgetting that people like the Prime Minister or the President are just that, people. You seem to be forgetting that greed is a huge influence and driving force.
so…not selling alcohol to adolescents means they are greedy? do they make a profit everytime someone dies from alcohol? i don't understand what you are getting at.

so let's change your words to prove a point
I seem to remember a certain time when crack was banned in America. Yes, such a gleaming, wonderful time that was, crack houses on every corner, organized crime, corruption, greed and hate. People getting murdered over something as enjoyable as crack just because someone had a vision of a clean, dry future.

do you get why I did that?
J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:01PM
Black_Kitty at 5:37PM, March 28, 2007
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Custard Trout
Black_Kitty: Good point, even I know of the effects alcohol can have on me, but I choose to drink it anyway.

I know the effect this law will have, and that's why I'm against it. At 18 I will be an adult, I will be able to vote and drive (I can legally dive now in fact) so why can't I celebrate that in the traditional way? The way everyone before me has had a chance to?

Because some people ruined it for everyone else.

Think of it this way: you need car insurance in order to drive. Young people tend to suffer from the worse rates ever. If you're a 18 year old guy, you could be paying a fortune (in comparison to everyone else.)

You could argue that you're a responsible driver and that you shouldn't be penalized for being an 18 year old male. You could even argue that this is basic prejudice at work. You may even be right! But statistics show that inexperienced young male drivers tend to get into accidents more. So everyone falling in that group pays more in terms of car insurance.

You seem to be forgetting that greed is a huge influence and driving force. Think of the money that could be saved if no one drank? So yes, those statistics could be made up and the government are pandering to your needs, making you think that it's somehow fair. I'm not saying it's true, but it's a possibility. You should question everything.

The government makes a ton of money off of people's “vices.” This is especially true if you live in Ontario. Everyone buys their alcohol from the LCBO and that's a state controlled company. They tax the hell out of cigarettes. If all they want is money from you, they wouldn't be upping the age but lowering it instead. I don't know how it works in the UK but each time you buy alcohol here, the government gets some of the money.
  
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:24AM
Custard Trout at 6:17PM, March 28, 2007
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Black_Kitty: I really can't argue with anything you're saying, mostly because I have no idea whether you're arguing for or against, but also because I agree with everything you're saying.

subcultured
hmmm…
why do you keep attacking my character? we are discussing if alcohol is bad for you and should the age limit be raised. it's not a debate and discussion of SUBCULTURED.


Someone Said:

I'm going to sound immensely paranoid now, but those guidelines could just be in place to fool you. Yes, you. You seem to be forgetting that people like the Prime Minister or the President are just that, people. You seem to be forgetting that greed is a huge influence and driving force.

so…not selling alcohol to adolescents means they are greedy? do they make a profit everytime someone dies from alcohol? i don't understand what you are getting at.

so let's change your words to prove a point
I seem to remember a certain time when crack was banned in America. Yes, such a gleaming, wonderful time that was, crack houses on every corner, organized crime, corruption, greed and hate. People getting murdered over something as enjoyable as crack just because someone had a vision of a clean, dry future.

do you get why I did that?

Because I think it's a bad idea, and you don't, so I will argue and attempt to prove that I am right, it's human nature.

No, I was just saying that the statistics might not be true. And it's not just money, it could be a personal issue.

As for the crack thing. . . no, I have no idea how that works out, I mean cracks already illegal, an we're talking about alcohol. And that actually happened, the ban on alcohol in the 1920's bought on a huge rise in crime, do we want to repeat that?
Hey buddy, you should be a Russian Cosmonaut, and here's why.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:59AM
subcultured at 6:29PM, March 28, 2007
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organized crime is still here, the orgainizations just shifted to other illegal sources. The mafia saw an opportunity with alcohol and it took it. Organize crime also deals with prostitution, sex slaves, kidnapping, heroin, cocaine..etc. should we make those legal?

btw organize crime is on the rise, so if unbanning alcohol was suppose to solve that, it didn't work.

Someone
in 1885 the U.S. manufacturer Parke-Davis sold cocaine in various forms, including cigarettes, powder, and even a cocaine mixture that could be injected directly into the user’s veins with the included needle. The company promised that its cocaine products would “supply the place of food, make the coward brave, the silent eloquent and … render the sufferer insensitive to pain.”

the injection kit sold with cocaine (circa 1885)


Someone
In 1886 Coca-Cola is invented and its original formula includes cocaine

just because something (alcohol) was banned and then unbanned again doesn't mean it was the right thing to do.

J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:01PM
Black_Kitty at 6:36PM, March 28, 2007
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Custard Trout
Black_Kitty: I really can't argue with anything you're saying, mostly because I have no idea whether you're arguing for or against, but also because I agree with everything you're saying.

Pyohohoho~ I am sneaky!

I'm actually for upping the age limit but to be fair (and as I said before) I don't drink. So it really doesn't bother me that the age limit gets pushed up. Plus some of my students right now are around 18 and I rather they not drink.

I also don't see it as anything particularly upsetting. It's not as inconvenient as not being able to drive. Job opportunities and mobility in general would be greatly hampered if a person can't drive. Paying taxes/voting is part of what it means to be a citizen. The country runs on taxes and democracy doesn't work if nobody votes. Alcohol? Beyond being forced to find something else to drink, I'm not sure how it can negatively impact your life.
  
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:24AM
Phantom Penguin at 6:55PM, March 28, 2007
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I've drank regularly since i was 18. It hasn't done more damage to me then a British 18 your old. So that doesn't make since to me.

This is why i liked germany so much..heh.
In my opinion if your allowed to join the armed forces you should be able to drink legally.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:42PM
ozoneocean at 7:05PM, March 28, 2007
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Black_Kitty
Alcohol? Beyond being forced to find something else to drink, I'm not sure how it can negatively impact your life.
Think about it like being banned from eating chocolate or icerceam. It's about cutting into personal freedoms. What if a government decided that childhood obesity had reached epidemic proportions, with adult obesity and the cost of caring for adults with obesity related health care issues at prohibitive levels they decide to take action and totally ban anyone from eating high sugar, tasty foods until they reach at least 35 -because of the clear link between childhood obesity and adult obesity, and they don't want 20 somethings backsliding either…
So NO chocolate of any kind until then because the government decided for your own good.

Seem fair? I THINK NOT! :gem:
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:26PM
Custard Trout at 7:07PM, March 28, 2007
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Which is exactly what I'm trying to get across here.
Hey buddy, you should be a Russian Cosmonaut, and here's why.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:59AM
subcultured at 7:34PM, March 28, 2007
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i'm the only one putting out “evidence” of why it should be raised to support my opinion.

And why would we lock a topic, the discussion has and is remaining civil.

even if there is “freedom of speech” you know it's illegal to say “fire” on a crowded theater or “bomb” in an airport. because it can cause a panic and a possibility of people dying from bieng trampled. an example of how governmental laws help to protect society by impeding “freedom of speech”

so thousands of people die from alcohol related deaths every year, so you can drink? as a society we have to balance the bad with the good, and statistics don't lie about how many people are involved in yearly car fatalaties.

statistics don't lie:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Minimum_Drinking_Age_Act
National Minimum Drinking Age Act of 1984 (Title 23 U.S.C. §158) was passed on July 17, 1984

http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/drving.htm
Over the past 20 years, alcohol-related fatal crash rates have decreased by 60 percent for drivers ages 16 to 17 years and 55 percent for drivers ages 18 to 20 years, according to a study from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).

J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:01PM
Black_Kitty at 7:35PM, March 28, 2007
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I'm not sure about obesity and alcoholism though. I can certainly see what you're trying to get at but I've never known obesity to affect others as directly as alcohol does. Sure there will always be exceptions but I've never heard of obese related road deaths. Neither do obese people become unusually violent after eating too many fatty foods.

I know we're kind of arguing about analogies here but I personally see cigarettes as a more appropriate analogy. Both are considered as “vices”, both are heavily taxed, and both can affect not just the consumer but those who happen to be around them.

The other half of personal freedoms is personal responsibility. And if a certain age group isn't being responsible about their alcohol use and is not just hurting themselves but those around them…then why should they enjoy their freedom at the expense of others?

Sure it's not fair. I rather my brother not pay outrageous car insurance rates all because he's a young guy in his twenties. But I don't blame the insurance companies or the government. I blame the other twenty year old guys who ruin it for the rest of us.
  
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:24AM
pillinjer at 3:36AM, March 29, 2007
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Lets sort this issue out ok

1) This is another guy suggesting the age being risen to 21. Not the government putting through plans. I wondered why I hadn't heard of the idea till this article and thats why

2) Putting up the legal age at the moment would be a very bad idea as the legal age of smoking is rising to 18. This means that ID will be needed as they will be sold next to wine or beer. The shops will be more vigilant. This means less under-aged smokers. Yes they will still get their hands on it but it will be harder.

3) Alcohol is legally allowed with a meal at an age under 18 and definitely allowed with a meal at home. This wont change whatever the outcome.

4) The people this law would affect most is uni students as at the moment you don't really need ID at a UK uni pub as long as you have uni ID. Which will be a shame, but as I am turning 21 soon I can see both sides of the issue.

So yea it will be annoying, but as was said earlier people will get over it if it happens. But the original article, I found no links at all to on the BBC, so…probably not going to happen.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:43PM
Conned at 1:23PM, March 29, 2007
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I actually wouldn't care if they did (and thats not because I'm out of the country),
It's just sad they're forced to do things like this to keep youngsters undercontrol. People don't NEED alchohol, it's not essential, I'm sure they'd ban it but then the government would seriously get a massive decrease in Tax money..and then they'd raise Tax. Not to mention the amount of crazy alchoholics killing themselves because their will to live has been banned…and black markets. bla.

It's just you don't need it unless it's for hospitals, products, or raising your self esteem.

People have become so conscience about their personal bubbles that they now need alchohol to get close to people, use it as an excuse for bad behaviour, and to build their self confidence.

If you guys can't drink like adults then you'll be treated as children you are when you drink. Shame everyone else has to suffer.

On an even sadder note, The netherlands is thinking of raising the age to 18…no more casual beers for me for a while..
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:44AM
josif at 1:38PM, April 2, 2007
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I live in the Uk!!
NOO!!!!!
Your Reading Skills Have Increased By Two Points.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:11PM
ccs1989 at 6:27PM, April 2, 2007
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I don't see this as suprising at all, because 21 is the legal drinking age in the states. So what the UK is doing is basically trying to conform to the US's laws. However let me be the first to tell you that the law doesn't work in the US. Kids drink like crazy. Fake IDs, negligent parents, or just friends that are over 21 all get underage kids drinks. However since they're technically “underage” they drink a ton when they “can” and therefore do binge drinking. At colleges/universities, you can expect to see tons of kids in the infirmary each weekend because they drank too much. A lot of kids die, even at Ivy League schools.

While the law might have good intentions, it doesn't work, and it won't work in Europe either. Personally I think it's better just not the drink at all, no matter what age you are.
http://ccs1989.deviantart.com

“If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.”
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:38AM
subcultured at 9:21PM, April 2, 2007
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let me mention this again

Someone
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Minimum_Drinking_Age_Act Said:
National Minimum Drinking Age Act of 1984 (Title 23 U.S.C. §158) was passed on July 17, 1984


http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/drving.htm Said:
Someone
Over the past 20 years, alcohol-related fatal crash rates have decreased by 60 percent for drivers ages 16 to 17 years and 55 percent for drivers ages 18 to 20 years, according to a study from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).

putting these 2 data together concludes that the law did work…just because you see a lot of illegAl drinking around you and on the media doesn't mean that the law didn't make any impact
J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:02PM

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