General Discussion

Todd Goldman stealing from Purple Pussy?
Black_Kitty at 4:57PM, April 8, 2007
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So I was browsing through my regular rounds of webcomics when I noticed a newspost Randy Miholland of Something Positive made:

Todd Goldman is a hack, throw rocks at him.

April 7, 2007

There are few things I hate more than stealing someone else's hard work - and for some goddamned reason, when it comes to comics, theft of intellectual property and t-shirt designers seem to go hand in hand. I've found Rippy, and versions of him, on fly-by-night t-shirt shops before. I've also seen the comics of people I know being hoisted up with no apology by the thief. It's infuriating and it's an uphill battle.

But at least those assholes hadn't built a small empire and decent wealth off the work of others.

Have you heard of Todd Goldman? He also goes by Todd Goliath and he's the “genius” behind such shirt designs as the “Boys Are Dumb - Throw Rocks At Them” shirts from his company, David and Goliath Tees. He's also got a line of shirts called Goodbye Kitty, meant to be a parody of Hello Kitty, that is actually just an image that's been on the web since the mid-90s.

Yeah. Someone ELSE drew that cat first.

Oh, but that's not all. See, Todd is also a painter. The Jack Gallery in Los Angeles did a recent exhibition entitled Golddigger of his works. Amongst his paintings in their online selection was this piece:



I like that piece a lot. Of course, I enjoyed it even more when it was this:



See, the second image was a comic from the strip, Purple Pussy by Dave Kelly. In face, it was the September 19, 2001 strip. The dialogue is almost the same. The layout is EXACTLY the same. The tail is the same. So are the eyelashes. All that's missing is the bow on her head. Goldman barely changed the text.

This is not the first time Goldman's been accused of ripping other people off. His character, Eve L. bears an uncanny resemblance to Roman Dirge's Lenore. The idea of Goodbye Kitty was something I saw years ago in a Evan Dorkin comic book. Most of the shirts have slogans you've seen on other shirts for years.

In the past I've been very critical of some of Dave Kelly's work on KeenSpot. Some of his other projects, like Living in Greytown (no longer online) and his animation at Something Awful called the Flash Tub are pure genius (if severely NOT safe for work). But one thing is for sure: Dave is an amazing artist, one of the best who's touched webcomics, and this isn't right. Dave Kelly's art deserves to be respected, and slapping your own name on it and hanging it in a gallery isn't respect.

Why am I posting about this? Someone told Kelly about it after she'd seen the piece at the Wentworth Gallery and then he made it public. And Dave Kelly is known for shying away from the spotlight. Also, this is something everyone who does some form of art has to be concerned about. And honestly, anyone who takes someone ELSE'S hard work and tries to pass it off as their own deserves to be called out.

And the consumer deserves to know where art is coming from. And the real artist deserves the praise and support, whether it's criticial or financial, that the piece moves the consumer to offer. And I think everyone knows how enraging it is to work hard and have someone else take credit for it.

Well, maybe everyone except Todd Goldman. -R

There are more links to it at Something Positive.

I know we have a slightly younger user base here on DrunkDuck so that's why I'm posting this here. I want all of you to think about this for just a moment. Let's say someone was ripping images from YOUR webcomic and making t-shirts off of it. Would you want other people to buy those t-shirts and thus support this person? Would you want to encourage him to take art from more artists and profit off their work?

If you've answered no, then I encourage you to pay more attention to what's going on between Todd Goldman and Purple Pussy. And if you feel as upset as I do, then I encourage you to not buy anything that Todd Goldman puts out. By buying his products, you are supporting an art thief and as an artist on the Internet, that's probably not something you want to support.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:24AM
Alexis at 5:23PM, April 8, 2007
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Man, that' something to think about. It underscores the dangers of building an online fanbase, people feel that things online are “up for grabs,” even if you put a copyright notice on them. You really have to watch your back.
last edited on July 14, 2011 10:49AM
draxenn at 1:06AM, April 9, 2007
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This is a problem the net has faced for a looooong time.
A friend of mine had a website up dedicated to the making of chainmail.
He was pretty liberal with the things he created. For the love of chainmail, he made many, many complicated 3d pictures showing how to assemble various pieces of chainmail.

People would take his images and put them up on their site. He normally had no problems with that as long as they would link his site, saying where they got the images. But people wouldn't. They would claim it as their own.
He would watermark the images with his weblink, they would get around it.

For a while he had it beat. He made his webpage so that IE would not allow the option to save the image…then the new IE came out and defeated that.

So yeah, i'm familiar with the uphill battle of what is your intellectual property, and I despise anyone who has the audacity to steal someone elses work for profit.

Personally, when people use art for non profit stuff, i don't have a problem with.
Sean Howard(www.squidi.net) had made a big deal a few years ago about people using his pixel art as their avatars. Although I agreed that they didn't have the right to do it, I didn't see what the big deal was. If someone took art from my comic to make avatars out of, i'd personally be flattered.

well, i've rambled on enough…in the end, if you didn't make it, don't try and make money off it. It's just bad form.
Screw the money! I have RULES!
. o O ( Evil )
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:16PM
Crazy Dutchman at 3:05AM, April 9, 2007
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Yeah, it seems that he had even just TRACED that image. It was all on the Something Awful-forums. I seriously lost all my respect for mr. Goliath.

It has been happening a lot on the web, it's sad stealing other people's art. Those people should stop being such arseholes. I still don't think anyone will ever steal my art, and I wouldn't care at all if they'd put it on their websites. Making profit of it is a different thing ofcourse..
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:48AM
SpANG at 5:34AM, April 9, 2007
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draxenn
Personally, when people use art for non profit stuff, i don't have a problem with.
Sean Howard(www.squidi.net) had made a big deal a few years ago about people using his pixel art as their avatars. Although I agreed that they didn't have the right to do it, I didn't see what the big deal was. If someone took art from my comic to make avatars out of, i'd personally be flattered.

True enough. But Sean didn't, and that should have been respected. People should have taken it down for that reason. But at first they denied it was his work and would continuously call him a LIAR. Then when it was PROVEN it was his… well, they said “So what?”

If Jack Black or his ‘people’ asked me not to use this image for my avatar I'd take it down. I wouldn't make belittling remarks, flames, and hate mail. Some idiot even posted Sean's REAL ADDRESS on a forum. That just sucks, and people should be ashamed of themselves for it.

Now, that said, when it comes to copyright infringement, you still need to pick your battles. Trying to police every use of your work is a fruitless endevor. Sean learned that the hard way, I think.
“To a rational mind, nothing is inexplicable. Only unexplained.”
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:52PM
ozoneocean at 6:56AM, April 9, 2007
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The problem wasn't that they made avatars out of Sean's work. You're wrong.
The problem was that the guy made avatars out of it and claimed it as his own artwork. ;)

The whole thing was rather sad because the fellow was a very skilled artist, just one of those pathetic losers who piggybacks on the success of others to get ahead. Karma doesn't always work though, because he did indeed get ahead that way :)

But in another case, Karma did work: I remember that Scott Kurtz was one of those who were derisive and dismissive of what happened to Sean. So it was incredibly amusing and ironic when Kurtz started to get upset at the same guy for “stealing” aspects of his characters and passing them of as his own art in his fantasy comic.

The moral is: Do NOT be dismissive of someone who's upset about the unauthorised use of their work, because the same or worse can happen to you and on top of your anger at having your work stolen, you'll also look like an idiot. lol!
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:26PM
Phantom Penguin at 7:35AM, April 9, 2007
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If someone wants to gank my shit they can go to hell. End of story.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:42PM
SpANG at 8:26AM, April 9, 2007
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If someone wants to gank my shit they can go to hell. End of story.
Copyright 2007 Steve Rowles
“To a rational mind, nothing is inexplicable. Only unexplained.”
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:52PM
Phantom Penguin at 9:01AM, April 9, 2007
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SpANG
If someone wants to gank my shit they can go to hell. End of story.
Copyright 2007 Steve Rowles

i will see you in hell good sir!
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:42PM
ccs1989 at 9:07AM, April 9, 2007
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Yeah, there's a topic on this over at the PVP forums. I feel like going to this gallery and throwing rocks at this guy's work. Or going with pieces of paper and posting “Todd Goldman stole this” or something like that. It's really dispicable. Art theives are moronic bastards who don't understand the importance of actually creating their OWN work.
http://ccs1989.deviantart.com

“If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.”
-Henry David Thoreau, Walden
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:38AM
kingofsnake at 9:08AM, April 9, 2007
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This makes me seriously angry. Purple pussy is one of the funniest, most original comics online. This guy deserves to get sued so f*cking hard
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:16PM
Black_Kitty at 9:35AM, April 9, 2007
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There is a certain unspoken trust when people put their work online. Every so often you'll see someone out there in some art community asking “how do I make sure people won't steal my work?” The answer is you can't. You just have to trust that nobody would try and turn a dime on your hard work.

Todd Goldman is ruining it for the rest of us. How many people out there read this and the first thing that came to their mind was how this could affect you as an artist? Or whether you should be worried about YOUR work being stolen or whether your work IS stolen but you just don't know it?

The other thing that bothered me was that he put it up in an art gallery. It not only shows a great deal of disrespect to Dave Kelly but to also the gallery and the art community in general. Back when I was taking art classes in university, the common topic of discussion was why people have a distaste for modern art and how this could be addressed. Thank you Todd Goldman for your contribution. Without people like you, we wouldn't have enough people out there who think modern art is one big hack job.

And on a more personal level, I actually own a David and Goliath t-shirt. At the time I thought it was quite a witty shirt and now I'm wondering if he stole the idea for that too. Damn you Todd Goldman. You ruined what was otherwise a perfectly good shirt. D:<
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:24AM
carrollhach at 1:31PM, April 9, 2007
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More than ten years ago I busted a web cartoonist who stole a strip from the legendary Cowboy Henk, originally published in Raw magazine. It turned into a massive flame war. My only thought is that if somebody is lame enough to steal your work and pass it off as their own they need to lose all the credibility and trust given them by their fanbase. When Garfield stole from Peanuts back in the 80's I vowed to never read the strip again. I also wrote the editor. Jim Davis issued an apology, saying that he used writers and that the one who had “contributed” that idea was fired. Still and all, very lame.
I'm gonna head over to that strip and give the chappy the Clench Treatment! OI! SOD! YE BUGGER OFF!
Josh Carrollhach
For profile inormation, other comics and general blog stuff, please check out
http://www.drunkduck.com/Clench_and_Cheese/
The Clench and Cheese Blog
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:36AM
The mediocre one at 4:07PM, April 9, 2007
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I hope that guy gets beaten with his own t-shirt.
Plagurism I have on the same level as Heresy. Call me crazy, but that's how it is.
Paper Mache Cataclysm
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:15PM
Custard Trout at 7:35PM, April 9, 2007
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I can't say I like Purple Pussy much, but what Goldman did was just sick, I know this as already been said by basically everyone one the entire planet, but it's serious enough to be said again and again until this tit gets it through his thick head.

I can tolerate a lot of things, but plagiarism is not among them.
Hey buddy, you should be a Russian Cosmonaut, and here's why.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:59AM
Crazy Dutchman at 2:36AM, April 10, 2007
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“Todd Goldman ripped me off and all I got was this lousy T-Shirt” XD
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:48AM
Neilsama at 3:35AM, April 10, 2007
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Wow, that's just… explicitly and unapologetically stolen. It's like he printed up the comic, threw it in the artograph machine, and painted it up without second thought. What amazes me is that people think that nobody is ever going to notice, as if the people reading Purple Pussy and the people viewing the gallery are two separate groups of people who will never ever intermingle.

If I was Dave Kelly, I would print up copies of the original comic and pass them around at the exhibit. Sure, he'll be asked to leave, but the meme will be firmly planted by then. Hee… there's my favorite word again.

ozoneocean
The whole thing was rather sad because the fellow was a very skilled artist, just one of those pathetic losers who piggybacks on the success of others to get ahead. Karma doesn't always work though, because he did indeed get ahead that way :)
Of course, it didn't have to happen that way. Sean neither picked his battles wisely nor handled them with an ounce of forethought and consideration. Sean was very adamant that his poorly-worded letter to PA was not to be interpreted as a legal threat. Ironically, that's probably the one thing he could have done that would have caused him the least amount of trouble. A calm cease-and-desist order, void of any of the ambiguity that existed in his letter to Gabe and Tycho, probably could have netted him a less emotionally costly result. The moral: If you must defend your work to the end, save yourself the headache, hire a lawyer, and handle your professional matters discretely and quietly.

ozoneocean
But in another case, Karma did work: I remember that Scott Kurtz was one of those who were derisive and dismissive of what happened to Sean. So it was incredibly amusing and ironic when Kurtz started to get upset at the same guy for “stealing” aspects of his characters and passing them of as his own art in his fantasy comic.

The moral is: Do NOT be dismissive of someone who's upset about the unauthorised use of their work, because the same or worse can happen to you and on top of your anger at having your work stolen, you'll also look like an idiot. lol!
Funny you should mention Kurtz…

http://www.pvponline.com/article/3253/mon-apr-09
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artisthazzard at 5:27AM, April 10, 2007
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This is not the first time D&G has done something like this!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:02AM
ozoneocean at 6:35AM, April 10, 2007
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Neilsama
Of course, it didn't have to happen that way. Sean neither picked his battles wisely nor handled them with an ounce of forethought and consideration.
meh, Sean had a grudge against Penny Arcade anyway, but that's beside the point. Concerning the specific guy himself, he was well within his rights, as are we all when someone does this to us. -as was Kurtz when the same guy did it to him. ;)
Neilsama
http://www.pvponline.com/article/3253/mon-apr-09
Yep, I'd say he's learned from his lesson lol!
artisthazzard
This is not the first time D&G has done something like this!!!
He's done it before? o_O
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:26PM
Glarg at 6:48AM, April 10, 2007
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…Another open and shut case, why doesnt the man just quit whining and Sue Todd Goldman eh?
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:37PM
Inkmonkey at 7:21AM, April 10, 2007
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With the Squidi, the guy who made the avatars (Tauhid Bondia) had found a “how to make sprites” tutorial on a short-lived geocities site that used Squidi's characters. Being mostly familiar with the mentality of many sprite comic, he was under the impression that if you alter a sprite significantly enough, it becomes an original work. He did not simply repaste Sean's characters as his own; he used Squidi's art as a template for creating new sprites based on other forum members' avatars. He had originally claimed them as original because that's just how he thought the system worked. At first, after being contacted by Squidi, he assumed that Squidi's sprites were simply from a game, and so ignored him. Unfortunately, once things became clear, he continued to ignore Sean's complaints out of spite and foolish pride (since at that point Squidi had become angy and belligerent). The two eventually had a real chat, and after Tauhid saw the very uncalled for harrassment Sean had endured, finally issued a formal, public apology.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:59PM
artisthazzard at 12:52PM, April 10, 2007
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ozoneocean

Yes.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:02AM
Neilsama at 1:39PM, April 10, 2007
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ozoneocean
but that's beside the point. Concerning the specific guy himself, he was well within his rights, as are we all when someone does this to us.
I'm not saying he wasn't. I'm just saying that he handled the situation QUITE poorly. Having the right to do something does not mean that it's a good idea. Didn't he actually get hassled over the phone over that whole thing? I don't sympathize with people who insist on exercising their rights in the absolute most idiotic way possible.

But I digress. Yes, it seems that Kurtz is singing a completely contradictory tune these days. His blog post for the day is even more illuminating.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:10PM
Generic Human at 1:49PM, April 10, 2007
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Wow, if that isn't an obvious rip off. I've seen those tee-shirts in stores, and even laughed at them, now I just feel dirty for semi-supporting D&G with my laughter. What scum.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:34PM
rainingbells at 4:09PM, April 10, 2007
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I remember having a huge debate turned outright flamewar of a thread back on the old OCAD bbs. This was back in the day, when an artist by the name of Kat Williams started going on about her work, and someone followed the link back to her site where she had a whole gallery of material, and went on about winning a couple contents…. Too bad that aside from one or two pieces that were actually her own, the bulk of her “work” consisted of outright tracings of Satoshi Urushihara's artwork (Chirality, Plastic Little…primarily the lesbian content, as Kat was lesbian). It was bloody. But she swore up and down that it was HERS by the mere fact that it wasn't the original, it was an enlarged piece done by her own hand, and she didn't even use a projector! And that's fine, if you make note that it wasn't your original work and you credit the original artist and you use it as an example of how you can enlarge and reproduce a preexisting piece of art…but NOT if you go out and win a contest with it and claim it as your own original artwork, which she was doing. I think that was the worst example I'd seen (up until now) because the thread was so damned long it forced the browser to scroll horizontally, and she STILL refused to acknowledge that it was anything other than her original work.

Though I have seen, over the years, friends online who have had their art poached, but it's usually by some kid on DA or Gaia (I remember one that didn't even bother to take off the artist's sig), and nothing really financially threatening. In the 90s, there were Japanese sites going down left and right because the artists were tired of people simply saving and redistributing their artwork (via FTP or File Shrines).

It's a nasty business, but as an artist, when you put yourself online, you no longer have to deal with the possibility that someone in your city, state, or country could swipe your art, you run the risk of it happening globally. That's why there are people who go around LOOKING for art thieves.

And you know, a lot of artists who steal produce crap on their own, when they don't have something to reference, so it's obvious when you ACTUALLY see their work, in the way their quality or style fluctuates. They want the attention, the back-pats, they have yet to EARN. It's the ones who are GOOD artists and do it that are a shame. And it does happen, even in the comic and manga industries. That's why there use to be the Swipe Of The Week website, where people would send in panels and pages from professional comics that had been lifted from elsewhere.

But what's happening, really? You're getting a lot of pissed off artists who keep talking. And the original artist will get more attention, more hits, more fans in the longrun.

And the people who never heard of this other chump before it got posted all over every BBS and LJ community (3 that I saw offhand when I logged on this afternoon) and Myspace from here until the end of the internet, the ones who simply care about wearing a clever t-shirt…will go out and buy one.

Not to say it shouldn't be discussed, and the guy shouldn't be held accountable, but don't let your blood pressure get out of hand over it.

Personally, I think art thieves should have their hands sawed off, or their hands struck with hammers until the bone is left a fine powder.

If you think I'm kidding, you'd be wrong.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:00PM
ozoneocean at 11:28PM, April 10, 2007
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Ewww.

Well, not to forget that a lot of the creative world is built on copying- in 2D visual art, sculpture, music, film etc.
“Copying” and appropriation has a long and venerable history. Nothing under the sun is truly original, -so they say.

But what it comes down to is NOT practising wholesale theft (where you don't innovate on the idea at all), and acknowledging your sources when it is required.

-personally I'd rather create my own stuff! But we have to be realistic when defining terms.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:26PM
carly_mizzou at 12:36AM, April 11, 2007
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Wow that is just sad. really it's so obvious that Todd just like traced that, and is making major money from it. It appears this little incident has exposed Mr. Goldman's other rip off jobs (like binky from “stuff sucks”)

Y'know every idea has a jumping off point, or insperation. You don't have to share that little helpful push with the rest of the world, but it's always nice to acknowledge that. Especially if you end up with a good idea and the inspiring artist is uber cool. (yay stardusty!)

meh, untalented artists are always like this guy. Nothing new, but still sad.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:36AM
Rich at 2:46AM, April 11, 2007
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This Todd Goldman guy wouldn't happen to have a forum or e-mail address floating around on the internet, would he? If so, could one of you please post it. I think some of the fine fellows on /i/ may enjoy paying him a visit…
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:07PM
Eviltwinpixie at 3:29AM, April 11, 2007
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According to this LJ post , it's been set up to auto-respond with a very insulting message about the original artist that… doesn't really seem to make a lot of sense.

*Glowers*

I mean, you do run the risk of someone taking your work if you put it online, but most people aren't gonna expect someone to take it and MAKE LARGE SUMS OF MONEY from it.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:24PM
subcultured at 6:58AM, April 11, 2007
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worse than rob lefield
J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:02PM

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