Debate and Discussion

Uncle Sam is at it again, "protecting" the morals, and bodies of innocent animated and manga children
ozoneocean at 4:35AM, Oct. 20, 2008
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bravo1102
As for the Postal inspector turning him in; IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HOMELAND SEC URITY/PATRIOT ACT. The postal inspection for seditious/offensive materials goes back more than 230 years.
Yeah, I had a look at what wiki said and it seemed to be along these lines… But that just talks about the office in a general way, not about the procedures they follow. I mean, do they randomly open post all over the place just in case it has something “bad” in it? Or does this follow other more logical routes: i.e. they notice a pattern of activity that catches their interest and decide to investigate further, or get tips or some other sort of information from another service or source and then use their own powers to follow it up? In which case Isukun's suspicions would seem to have some validity: Are they deliberately persecuting the man?

BTW, personally, I'm surprised the sort of manga that obviously depicts under-age people engaging in sex for viewer titillation isn't automatically verboten in the U.S. just because of the subject matter. It crosses the line for me. I have to say that if we found something like that on DD it'd have to go. I love sexy stuff as much as the next person, but not that sort.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:32PM
radarig at 5:09AM, Oct. 20, 2008
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ozoneocean
Yeah, I had a look at what wiki said and it seemed to be along these lines… But that just talks about the office in a general way, not about the procedures they follow. I mean, do they randomly open post all over the place just in case it has something “bad” in it? Or does this follow other more logical routes: i.e. they notice a pattern of activity that catches their interest and decide to investigate further, or get tips or some other sort of information from another service or source and then use their own powers to follow it up? In which case Isukun's suspicions would seem to have some validity: Are they deliberately persecuting the man?

Given what we're talking about, it could very likely have been imported. I've bought DVDs from Asia before, and they were marked that they had been inspected on entry into the country. And believe me, the package sure looked suspicious when I got it; the box actually looked like it held medical supplies or something.

So, if something looks concerning (or foreign, which is more likely the case in our grand xenophobic nation) it is probably more likely to get an inspection.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:58PM
KingRidley at 7:08AM, Oct. 20, 2008
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Yeah, and exactly what defines “a kid”?
Pre-pubescent individual? Or even still going through puberty. Hell, I don't think most teenagers need to be having sex. I don't think most adults need to be having sex.




ozoneocean
BTW, personally, I'm surprised the sort of manga that obviously depicts under-age people engaging in sex for viewer titillation isn't automatically verboten in the U.S. just because of the subject matter. It crosses the line for me. I have to say that if we found something like that on DD it'd have to go. I love sexy stuff as much as the next person, but not that sort.
man I think I've seen that on here. It was some comic that DID have a plot, but did have a scene with underage characters having sex. Thankfully the person didn't show it on here though, he just posted a warning page and linked to his deviantart account.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:16PM
isukun at 7:28AM, Oct. 20, 2008
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Or does this follow other more logical routes: i.e. they notice a pattern of activity that catches their interest and decide to investigate further, or get tips or some other sort of information from another service or source and then use their own powers to follow it up?

For anything in a mailer, box or labeled as first class, the USPIS has to obtain a warrant before they can open your mail. Generally they only do this as part of ongoing investigations or when they get tips. They should not have the authority to just randomly root through people's mail.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:04PM
KingRidley at 10:10AM, Oct. 20, 2008
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isukun
They should not have the authority to just randomly root through people's mail.
Seriously, I don't think they have that authority or practice it. Again, they can know what's supposed to be in a package without opening it.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:16PM
Mushroomcomix at 3:08PM, Oct. 20, 2008
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People keep saying this is the death of our Democracy, but we are not a true democracy we are a democratic republic..hence the fact that popular vote does not determine the leadership but electoral votes do.
Someone
DoJ Said:
The United States Supreme Court established a test that juries use to determine whether material is obscene. Under this test, something is obscene if the average person would find that the work, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest, is patently offensive in light of contemporary community standards, and lacks serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value. Because the test for obscenity incorporates the views of the community evaluating the material, something may be considered obscene in one jurisdiction that may not be considered obscene in another jurisdiction.

I believe that the Manga would fall under the artistic value category since it is a form of art…if you go around labeling everything obscene that depicts two people having sex or even nudity then most of the great works of art would be deemed obscene
not to mention numerous comics and manga that are not considered hentai.

Someone
DoJ Said:
Federal law prohibits the distribution of obscenity. More specifically, it is a crime to mail or receive obscene materials, or to import or transport obscene materials across state lines, including by computer. See 18 U.S.C. §§ 1461, 1462, 1463. It is also illegal to transport obscene materials for sale or distribution, or to engage in the business of selling obscene materials. See 18 U.S.C. §§ 1465, 1466. If on federal property, it is a crime to possess obscenity with the intent to sell it. See 18 U.S.C. § 1460. With that exception, it is generally not a crime to possess obscenity for private use. Thus, while possession of child pornography is a crime, possession of obscenity is not

Also if it is a crime to recieve or mail obscene materials then what about the people who get Play Boy, Hustler, mail order porn from websites shouldn't they be brought up on the same charges? As well as the stores who sell sex toys and porn. Your DoJ sure has a lot of loopholes in it.

KingRidley
Seriously, I don't think they have that authority or practice it. Again, they can know what's supposed to be in a package without opening it.
If they know what is in the package without opening it then why would they arrest a guy for buying a comic book and try to bring him up on child porn charges or obscenity charges. It makes no sense, unless they found other illegal porn in his house then he should not be charged with anything
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:08PM
isukun at 3:39PM, Oct. 20, 2008
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lso if it is a crime to recieve or mail obscene materials then what about the people who get Play Boy, Hustler, mail order porn from websites shouldn't they be brought up on the same charges?

There is a legal distinction between obscenity and pornography, which is why it is frequently hard to label something as legally obscene. Generally the USPIS's investigations into obscene material is to protect people from receiving these materials against their will.

This particular case is NOT an obscenity case, though. It is a child pornography case and even the section of the PROTECT act that this falls under goes under the label of “child obscenity”. The only reason obscenity is even being thrown around here is because the judge already ruled that it would be unconstitutional to label the material as child porn and the prosecutors are clinging to whatever charges they think they have even the slightest hope of bringing against this guy.

Under this test, something is obscene if the average person would find that the work, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest, is patently offensive in light of contemporary community standards, and lacks serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value.

As stated before this is one of the things which bothers me. Apparently, the “taken as a whole” bit doesn't apply here since they are judging the manga based on select images contained within.

Again, they can know what's supposed to be in a package without opening it.

Care to enlighten us on how that works when they aren't legally permitted to look at the contents of a package without a warrant, whether they open it or not? So how are they to distinguish the various clean manga and books being exported from those that may contain objectionable materials, especially when most import shops tend to carry a wide range of products from both categories?
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:04PM
Orin J Master at 3:56PM, Oct. 20, 2008
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considering the suspect nature of how they aquired the information of obscene material, i'd assume someone is trying a new way of prosicuting something their backers find objectionable so that it can be made illegal.

that they based this entire matter on a shaky obscenity charge and seem to be looking for a way to turn it into a child pornagraphy case shows they don't really have a good footing for it, but i am interested on how this is shaping up. anybody have a link on the current state ot the matter?
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:22PM
KingRidley at 5:40PM, Oct. 20, 2008
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Mushroomcomix
If they know what is in the package without opening it then why would they arrest a guy for buying a comic book

isukun
Care to enlighten us on how that works when they aren't legally permitted to look at the contents of a package without a warrant, whether they open it or not?


Well, they need to know what's in a package at a number of points. When they are first sending it and they're deciding to send it in one or more packages. Then they have all the computerized tracking information that allows the computer to know what got where and when. That also lets you check up on the status of your packages. And it means that at all times something knows what you're getting and where it is.

I'm sure there's alot more to it than that, but that's my theory anyways. And again I think this happened because Mr mail man recognized the name of the book. To me that also explains why that particular manga had no child sex but they still called it out.


But again this is all just a theory.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:16PM
isukun at 8:23PM, Oct. 20, 2008
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Highly doubtful. The postal service doesn't track contents in packages. In fact, they don't even ask for them when you ship something unless it is combustible, perishable, or hazardous. There really isn't any reason why they would need to. All they need to know is the type of package and the weight. Beyond that, there really isn't any information they need to get it from point A to point B. Heck, even when you insure a package, all they ask for is an estimate of the value of the contents, not any specific information on what the contents are. For companies, usually the products are already in a sealed box and labeled before the post office even gets it.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:04PM
JoeL_CQB at 8:28PM, Oct. 20, 2008
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the dude could have ordered overseas.

all packages that come from out of the states have to be checked by customs.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:10PM
NickGuy at 11:49AM, Oct. 21, 2008
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everyone is trying to feel sorry for the dude, but you know what? I can't.

if this is obviously hentai or whatever he ordered, then thats what he gets for wanting to see cardcaptor sakura's 9 year old cooch.

go on the net and find the free stuff goddamnit.

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last edited on July 14, 2011 2:15PM
Aurora Moon at 11:55AM, Oct. 22, 2008
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everyone is trying to feel sorry for the dude, but you know what? I can't.

if this is obviously hentai or whatever he ordered, then thats what he gets for wanting to see cardcaptor sakura's 9 year old cooch.

go on the net and find the free stuff goddamnit.

again, how do you know it's actual hentai? In fact there's nothing in the infromation provided here to even prove that it's hentai.

I've come across some very uniformed people who thought that ALL manga was hentai when it wasn't the case. even when some pages had only barbie-doll nudity (the type of nudity where there's no nipples, no gentials but just a competely blank body) they still thought it was “obscene” even though it was the type of nudity that every 4-year-old girl sees on thier dolls.

in fact there's been no links provided or more information prodivded on what KIND of Manga it was. They just say that it was manga (a VERY broad defination at that). and they also used VERY broad definations in the type of actions inside the manga. “Minors performing lewd/sexual actions”? I don't know about you, but I'd like to know how OLD the characters were, and what they were doing exactly.

I know people who conidser making out/fondling as an lewd/sexual action, for instance. Now it was just a bunch of teenagers making out and groping each other, tht wouldn't be so bad, right?
Now if it was actual intercoruse, etc it would really be hentai. then I would understand your reaction right now.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:10AM
Hawk at 1:06PM, Oct. 22, 2008
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That's the problem here. We're not given enough information. And what information we are being given is possibly being spun by the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund. If something sounds truly ridiculous, it's probably because some important details are being left out.

What's more, I hardly see this as evidence that America is becoming some sort of communist state. People take pedophilia seriously, which they very much should. And we can't expect the older generation to automatically understand what manga and hentai are. There are a lot of cultural subtleties that are hard for people to understand. With what information we do have, it looks like this prosecution will probably fail, and our judicial system will likely know more about manga and be able to treat it more fairly in the future.

Hopefully, like Isukun says, it won't take too large a toll on this man being prosecuted.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:46PM
isukun at 9:48PM, Oct. 22, 2008
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Honestly, I don't think this would have even made it to court if it wasn't hentai. I don't see how they could even argue the obscenity case if the manga was in any way story-oriented, it would have been thrown out long before it got to this point.

As for the material, itself, I don't necessarily equate manga depicting younger characters with pedophilia. Many characters in manga are not portrayed in particularly realistic fashions. Kids are often more mature, both mentally and physically than they are in real life. I have also met several people in the past who have had an interest in “loli” manga and art who lead perfectly normal lives and have perfectly normal girlfriends well within the legal limit. Hell, I've even met straight girls who are into that stuff.

Lets also not forget that about 90% of anime depicts underage characters. Most of your hentai doujin is depicting characters that would in real life be legally underage.

I'm also curious to see what people think about drawn depictions of underage boys having sex with older women. I find it is one of the biggest inconsistencies in the US since we tend to be far more concerned with depictions of young girls than young boys, to the point where professional publishers can put out comics depicting this sort of scenario without anybody batting an eye about it being pedophilia.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:04PM
radarig at 5:53AM, Oct. 23, 2008
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Hawk
That's the problem here. We're not given enough information. And what information we are being given is possibly being spun by the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund. If something sounds truly ridiculous, it's probably because some important details are being left out.

It's hard to get any info on this other than what the CBLDF has put out there, but comicfoundry.com has this:

Comic Foundry
Another case with potential consequences for comics involves Iowa resident Christopher Handley, who is being prosecuted by the federal government not for distributing sexually explicit comics material, but rather for owning it.

Handley is charged with receiving “obscene visual representations of the sexual abuse of children” for importing what is known as lolicon manga from Japan. Derived from the term “Lolita complex,” lolicon is a genre of manga that features young girls drawn in sexual situations.
http://www.comicfoundry.com/index.php/wfsection/article.php

And for those unclear as to what lolicon is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lolicon

Check out the “United States” section of that article for legal precedents and whatnot.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:58PM
NickGuy at 7:09AM, Oct. 23, 2008
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I know people who conidser making out/fondling as an lewd/sexual action, for instance. Now it was just a bunch of teenagers making out and groping each other, tht wouldn't be so bad, right?



fondling is sexual action…you are touching body parts for the purpose of pleasure. and its hard to show fondling in a comic, unless you draw a hand on a butt and add some shaky lines around it lol.

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last edited on July 14, 2011 2:15PM
DAJB at 7:19AM, Oct. 23, 2008
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On the question of precedents, has anyone in the US been prosecuted for owning a copy of Alan Moore's Lost Girls, I wonder?

Could they be? I'm sure Moore's book has far more wit and artistic merit than whatever piece of manga is being discussed here, but should that really make a difference? Merit, after all, is only a matter of taste. If it's okay to own one, shouldn't it also be okay to own the other?
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:03PM
radarig at 10:23AM, Oct. 24, 2008
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DAJB
Could they be? I'm sure Moore's book has far more wit and artistic merit than whatever piece of manga is being discussed here, but should that really make a difference? Merit, after all, is only a matter of taste. If it's okay to own one, shouldn't it also be okay to own the other?

Having not read Lost Girls I can only speculate, but given that it's an Alan Moore book it probably has a great deal of artistic merit. And no, just because one has merit doesn't mean this lolicon book the guy bought necessarily has it as well; they're two different things that would be judged separately by the courts to determine obscenity.

And as I said, I'm fairly sure the Moore book in your scenario could easily be proven to be worthy as art, while you would have a much harder time proving the same for what this case is most likely about.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:58PM
Aurora Moon at 12:00PM, Oct. 24, 2008
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isukun
As for the material, itself, I don't necessarily equate manga depicting younger characters with pedophilia. Many characters in manga are not portrayed in particularly realistic fashions. Kids are often more mature, both mentally and physically than they are in real life. I have also met several people in the past who have had an interest in “loli” manga and art who lead perfectly normal lives and have perfectly normal girlfriends well within the legal limit. Hell, I've even met straight girls who are into that stuff.
I bolded a certain important part of this for discussion.

it's true that drawn stuff tends to be vastly different than child porn in my opinion for this very reason. Those drawn children aren't real, and most of the time they don't even look like REAL children. How many 9-year-olds do you know who has an D-cup set of breasts? How many 9-year-old girls have curvy child-bearing hips when it's usually only teenagers who start to develop child-bearing hips once they get past being 13-year-olds?

And this isn't only applied to Japanese hentai. I see plenty of dirty American pornographic cartoons which draws people in simlar ways. ever seen images of underaged teenage boys with impossibly giant dicks, underaged female characters from cartoons such as kim impossible having an massive set of breasts for some reason?

So for this reason I just can't seem to visualize that anybody would automically become an pedophile if they were to look at such images, and possibly enjoy it. it's like those cartoon characters might as well be adult midgets, rather than real children.

I'm also curious to see what people think about drawn depictions of underage boys having sex with older women. I find it is one of the biggest inconsistencies in the US since we tend to be far more concerned with depictions of young girls than young boys, to the point where professional publishers can put out comics depicting this sort of scenario without anybody batting an eye about it being pedophilia.

you know, this is something I've been pissed off about lately. I fucking hate this double standard.. (pardon my cussin').

It's been competely proven in dozens of studies that young boys suffer just as much as young girls do should they be preyed on by members of the opposite sex. In fact Young boys tend to react much worse than young girls in such situations. The trama tends to leave such a impact on those young boys that they will actually turn into serial rapists, pedophiles, and even serial murderers.

Yet despite all this information out there making it very obivous that the effects on a young boy by an oppsite sex preadtor is more or less the same as when the situation is reserved…. people still somehow seem to accept it.
Adult men who doesn't even understand what it's like to be preyed on, will even joke: “Lucky little bastard!! Where were those women when I was young? LOLOLOLOL!!”
I wonder if they would still joke about it if they were able to look into the said young boy's future and see him growing up to be an serial murderer of women.

So if people aren't allowed to have lolicon on this ridlicious notion that owning those makes one a pedophile, then they shouldn't have Straight shotacon (younger women with underage boys), neither.

Also, I've heard that same old tired arugement regarding normal porn. people once thought upon a time that porn could cause a man to go out and rape women, etc…..
Turns out that the opposite is true. it actually doesn't cause men to become more horny than they normally would be in life. In fact it actually cuts down on the chances that a man would go out seeking to get laid one way or the other. After all, if you want to get a fix, just look up porn on the net and whack off!
there's also a study out there that provided that it reduced violent urges in inmates, and that in areas where porn was readily allowed, there was a dramatic drop in rape and murder cases.

So following the logic here, shouldn't lolicon and shotacon do the same for any supposedly pedophiles out there? Despite the fact that those “children” doesn't look like children to start with?
This is why it's even tolerated in Japan at all, they basically believe in this logic.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:10AM
mlai at 9:39PM, Oct. 24, 2008
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I also think that is a crux of the issue. Not only are manga characters not real, they don't even look real.

Look at the typical big-eyed anime character. How close to a real human being does this depiction actually seem?

Look at the typical bigger-eyed anime “child” character. This character looks even less human than the typical adult anime character. Forget about looking like a real child. Look at an anime child and compare it to a child in a Renaissance painting.

So the only mental link the reader has to say that this is child porn, is the situation posed by the story. This thing that looks “kinda human”… goes to school, wears a school uniform, etc.

What is depicted is basically a fantasy situation, such as when women dress up as cops, or nurses, or cheerleaders, or schoolgirls, or slave girls on a leash.
The man will never be aroused by real life women cops because real life women cops aren't sexy, their real uniforms aren't sexy, and if they're arresting you they're doing it for real.
The man will never be aroused by real life nurses because real life nurses aren't sexy, their real uniforms aren't sexy, and if they're around you it means either you're sick/injured, or you're there for some uncomfortable tests.
Same thing applies to depictions of children. Being aroused by such a drawn character has no bearing on whether this man would be aroused when around actual real-life children.

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last edited on July 14, 2011 2:06PM
radarig at 9:03AM, Oct. 25, 2008
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mlai
I also think that is a crux of the issue. Not only are manga characters not real, they don't even look real.

Look at the typical big-eyed anime character. How close to a real human being does this depiction actually seem?

Look at the typical bigger-eyed anime “child” character. This character looks even less human than the typical adult anime character. Forget about looking like a real child. Look at an anime child and compare it to a child in a Renaissance painting.

So the only mental link the reader has to say that this is child porn, is the situation posed by the story. This thing that looks “kinda human”… goes to school, wears a school uniform, etc.

Again, it doesn't matter what they look like or how adult/non-human/etc they appear; if the courts say that whatever this guy bought is obscene, he violated the law.

And to clarify again we're not talking about a child-porn case here (which you can't possess in any form); we're talking about general obscenity, which is regulated by the laws posted earlier.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:58PM
mlai at 5:58PM, Oct. 25, 2008
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Yes I know this is not an actual child pornography case. It it was, then they would have nothing because fictional drawn characters aren't real and therefore are excluded from child porn criteria. Child porn laws are about protecting children, not about dictating puritan values.

This general obscenity charge leveled on someone who bought private media of fictional characters is using the fear of child porn as its excuse. Like I said, it's like arresting shopowners who sell HS cheerleader uniforms to adults.

FIGHT current chapter: Filling In The Gaps
FIGHT_2 current chapter: Light Years of Gold
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:06PM
radarig at 6:18PM, Oct. 25, 2008
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mlai
This general obscenity charge leveled on someone who bought private media of fictional characters is using the fear of child porn as its excuse. Like I said, it's like arresting shopowners who sell HS cheerleader uniforms to adults.

Which fetish do you think is more obscene, if either?
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:58PM
isukun at 9:29PM, Oct. 25, 2008
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we're talking about general obscenity, which is regulated by the laws posted earlier.

Actually, we're not. Handley is being charged with violating § 1466A of the PROTECT Act. No part of that section of the PROTECT Act is about general obscenity. In fact, the part that he is being judged on reads as follows:
(a) In General.— Any person who, in a circumstance described in subsection (d), knowingly produces, distributes, receives, or possesses with intent to distribute, a visual depiction of any kind, including a drawing, cartoon, sculpture, or painting, that—
(1)
(A) depicts a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct; and
(B) is obscene; or
The court is trying to find a way around the previous rulings on the subject, but this is still very much a case about child porn. In fact, the whole subsection is titled “Obscene visual representations of the sexual abuse of children”.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:04PM
Aurora Moon at 11:20PM, Oct. 25, 2008
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radarig
mlai
This general obscenity charge leveled on someone who bought private media of fictional characters is using the fear of child porn as its excuse. Like I said, it's like arresting shopowners who sell HS cheerleader uniforms to adults.

Which fetish do you think is more obscene, if either?

aha, that's the point right there. it can be an fetish, BUT on the other hand it can be something else other than a fetish.

what if the adults buying the HS cheerleader uniforms only wanted to dress up for Halloween or a costume party? Just because one knows that there's a fetish about cheerleaders, is it right to automically assume that every adult who goes into the store to buy cheerleader uniforms is an perverse fetishist?

In this same sense, you cannot automically label anybody who likes dirty cartoons to be a pedophile/pervert/dangerous offender. as has been pointed out in the thread, there's even been straight girls who liked lolicon for some bizarre reason and led perfectly normal lives without sexually molesting anybody, much less children. Why? oh yes, because those aren't real children, and they're not even REALISTIC depictions of children at that. Goddess knows that anybody who were interested in dirty American cartoons depicting 13-year-old boys with Godzilla-sized dicks should know well enough that no 13-year-old boy are like that in real life at all. And if they don't… well, they're going to be sorely shocked when they find out that most teenager boys are still developing in *that area* and is usually very small at that age.

The same goes for drawn depictions of 9-year-old girls somehow developing the body of an adult before she even hit puberty.

I think everyone's had fantasies about a hot young cheerleader, cop, nurse, naughty schoolgirl, etc at one point… does that automically make it an fetish for those people, or just a fantasy that they think about once or twice for the mere novelty of it? Maybe the mentioned straight girls who like lolicon put themselves in the place of those manga young girls, as they explore the forbidden terrority of making love to somebody who's much, much older than they are in their head. you know, that classic fantasy of doing it with an older man. as opposited to getting turned on by the idea of real girls being molested/raped by older men.

to me, it's just about the context, and whenever it's like an obsession for those people or not.

For instance–if any person has only one or two lolicon manga, it may had been just a novelty to them and therefore nothing to get worked up about. However, if the same person in a different situation had like over a dozen of those lolicon manga, had over 20 hentai games, etc…. then that could easily be qualified as an obsession, and a true fetish. That's when it's time to be worried about that person.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:10AM
radarig at 8:09AM, Oct. 26, 2008
(online)
posts: 73
joined: 1-12-2006
Aurora
In this same sense, you cannot automically label anybody who likes dirty cartoons to be a pedophile/pervert/dangerous offender. as has been pointed out in the thread, there's even been straight girls who liked lolicon for some bizarre reason and led perfectly normal lives without sexually molesting anybody, much less children. Why? oh yes, because those aren't real children, and they're not even REALISTIC depictions of children at that. Goddess knows that anybody who were interested in dirty American cartoons depicting 13-year-old boys with Godzilla-sized dicks should know well enough that no 13-year-old boy are like that in real life at all. And if they don't… well, they're going to be sorely shocked when they find out that most teenager boys are still developing in *that area* and is usually very small at that age.
Would it be reasonable of me to infer from your posts that you believe there is a certain “boundary” of distortion, beyond which these kinds of comics are okay to have?

If so, isn't that boundary morally relative?
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:58PM
houseofmuses at 8:32PM, Oct. 26, 2008
(online)
posts: 156
joined: 4-4-2008
Give me a break, all of you. I have to agree with Dragonrider, Ipokino and Mlai and the others.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT DRAWINGS, FOR HEAVEN'S SAKE!!!

From the dawn of time people have been drawing dirty cartoons, and graffiti was a commonplace thing. Kind of like you Manga artists drawing your series on the sides of buildings up and down the city blocks for all to see. Now THAT'S publicity.

http://www.orbilat.com/Languages/Latin_Vulgar/Texts/Pompeii_Graffiti.html

It is absolute truth that the Religious Right is trying to restrict our First Amendment rights…and they will go as far as they can go.
Rarely do pedophiles have enough free time to do a comic series. Their criminal mindset is to seek and indulge in the real thing. If they are obsessed to the point that ALL they want to do is dirty comics, well, that's one less pedophile off the street. If only they would ALL just stay home and read….

Just be careful in condoning the restriction of artist's rights. It happened in WWII, and it could happen to even the E rated artists at this site if we are not very, very careful.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:50PM
krooboy at 4:04AM, Oct. 27, 2008
(online)
posts: 1
joined: 10-27-2008
Mushroomcomix
DoJ
Federal law prohibits the distribution of obscenity. More specifically, it is a crime to mail or receive obscene materials, or to import or transport obscene materials across state lines, including by computer. See 18 U.S.C. §§ 1461, 1462, 1463. It is also illegal to transport obscene materials for sale or distribution, or to engage in the business of selling obscene materials. See 18 U.S.C. §§ 1465, 1466. If on federal property, it is a crime to possess obscenity with the intent to sell it. See 18 U.S.C. § 1460. With that exception, it is generally not a crime to possess obscenity for private use. Thus, while possession of child pornography is a crime, possession of obscenity is not.
So interstate, and possibly international, trading of obscene materials is a crime. I seriously doubt the guy is going to get brought up on child porn charges, as those laws were meant to protect children from being exploited; this should be a plain-jane obscenity case. And as to how something is determined to be “obscene” for the above laws:
So…let me get this straight…in the US, it's illegal to distribute porn…??
NOW I'm confused…
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:24PM
DAJB at 4:33AM, Oct. 27, 2008
(online)
posts: 1,462
joined: 2-23-2007
radarig
DAJB
Could they be? I'm sure Moore's book has far more wit and artistic merit than whatever piece of manga is being discussed here, but should that really make a difference? Merit, after all, is only a matter of taste. If it's okay to own one, shouldn't it also be okay to own the other?

Having not read Lost Girls I can only speculate, but given that it's an Alan Moore book it probably has a great deal of artistic merit. And no, just because one has merit doesn't mean this lolicon book the guy bought necessarily has it as well; they're two different things that would be judged separately by the courts to determine obscenity.
I appreciate that. My point, really, was should it make a difference? If we have two pictures depicting the same act, why should one artist/owner be exempt from prosecution just because someone arbitrarily believes his work has artistic merit, while the other is charged with obscenity just because someone believes his work doesn't? It's a double standard. The act drawn is the same, so they should either both be liable or neither. (I happen to believe “neither”, but that's by the by.)

The only reason there is a distinction in law is because the intellectual elite have historically struggled to justify their own preferences for nudes and violent acts depicted in, for example, Renaissance paintings or Classical sculpture while, at the same time, hypocritically trying to dictate to the masses what they consider morally acceptable.

houseofmuses
Rarely do pedophiles have enough free time to do a comic series.
I don't know why, but that tickles me. It's somehow reassuring to know that all the DD-ers out there are behaving themselves!
;-)
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:03PM

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