Debate and Discussion

US military chief says gays are immoral
kingofsnake at 8:06AM, March 15, 2007
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kingofsnake
You never answered my question. Why do they segregate men and women?
Uhhh…. They segregate for a lot of reasons. Cause some straight people don't think they or someone else could control themselves if they saw the other naked. Cause some people have nakedness issues and don't want to be seen naked by people who might find them attractive. Cause the mystery would be removed “Is that all he's got? Why bother…” Cause the religious teaching say so.
I don't have a rational reason why they should be separate. Just cultural emotional ones left over from church and growing up in American society.

Don't most of those also apply to homosexuals now as well? Just because you have good self control doesn't mean everyone does. And regardless of the level of self control its going make uncomfortable anyone who feels they might be the object of sexual desire. Showering together is the obvious example to go to though, but this could be extended to many of the different aspects of a soldiar's life while they're in the army. What is appropriate and what isn't? Who decides? The lines were clearly drawn when women joined the army, but you still have to expect that it was a large expense to the goverment to allow them in, having to have seperate housing and utilities when before everyone could use the same ones.

I'm personally in favor of gays in the military. I don't think that sexual orientation should come into play when one wishes to fight for their country. However, theres alot of gray area when it comes to what policies the goverment needs to put into place to protect the personal privacy of each individual soldiar. I can understand why it's taking so long for them to come to any official decisions, and I'm glad I'm not in charge of figuring out how to accomadate homosexuals into the atmosphere the US army.

I guess this is all a little off topic for the one douchebag general who considers homosexuality immoral.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:15PM
ozoneocean at 10:54AM, March 15, 2007
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Jebus Reconjsh…
It's a perspective and perfectly true from his experience.

I think the problem isn't really to do with sexuality, gender, or physiology, this is a deeper cultural issue to do with how we deal with sexuality and gender. Most people think that culture is something entirely surface, but it goes far, far, deeper… It controls the way you think about things and react to them. So, sad as it is I think Reconjsh probably actually has a very valid point! -not because men are naturally insatiable sexual beats, but because they believe themselves to be.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:26PM
kingofsnake at 11:23AM, March 15, 2007
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This line of reasoning is starting to make me mad…apparently horny males have no self control after 15-30 days. Poor males cannot help but be excited, they are slaves to their biology. Thus the closeted gay ones should be “outing” themselves right and left, up and down on those field rotations, since as males they have no self control. Yet, I don't hear about mass kicking out of gays after field rotations so I assume the gay males behave themselves. So males can behave themselves, the straight ones just don't want to.

If studies found that in addition to being homophobic, being misogynist and racist helped some of soldiers kill and blow up things better, should our society encourage that too?


I think you're misinterpreting me. If its a problem with one person. Its a problem. You can't assume everyone is going to be like you. You have to assume the lowest denomenatior. I might be able to take a communal shower with women without being inappropriate, but it doesn't mean it's appropriate for all men to do so. I'm not seeing how why it should be different for gays when the reasons men and women shower seperately are primarly still there when gay men are showering with other men.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:15PM
reconjsh at 12:16PM, March 15, 2007
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This line of reasoning is starting to make me mad…apparently horny males have no self control after 15-30 days. Poor males cannot help but be excited, they are slaves to their biology. Thus the closeted gay ones should be “outing” themselves right and left, up and down on those field rotations, since as males they have no self control. Yet, I don't hear about mass kicking out of gays after field rotations so I assume the gay males behave themselves. So males can behave themselves, the straight ones just don't want to.

If studies found that in addition to being homophobic, being misogynist and racist helped some of soldiers kill and blow up things better, should our society encourage that too?


I don't understand how you extrapolated this from anything said so far, but okay… whatever. It's all pretty ridiculous so I won't treat it very seriously.

Anyways, to think that sex and sexuality isn't a primary force in our lives as humans and our culture as americans… than that's just ignorance.

But here's something to consider: either 1) homosexuals are like heterosexual men in thier sexual needs, reactions, desires, etc etc… and should thus be treated approriately in regard to these things. i.e. just like we would with heterosexual men and women; or 2) homosexuals are uniquely different and deserve special care and consideration.

To put it another way: either homosexuals should fit into an already existing category or they go into a new one. Either they're treated as men in the military… or they're treated as unique gender. Either way carries the burdon of unique considerations.

So answer me this… which is it?

EDIT AFTERTHOUGHT: If we aren't “slaves to our biology”, then biology as a justification for homosexuality isn't a valid one, right? Of course we're slaves to our biology, lol.

EDIT AFTERTHOUGHT: "Yet, I don't hear about mass kicking out of gays after field rotations so I assume the gay males behave themselves" - actually, that's what this article is about… the very high number of “homosexuals” getting kicked out of the military.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:02PM
reconjsh at 12:34PM, March 15, 2007
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Jebus Reconjsh…
It's a perspective and perfectly true from his experience.

I think the problem isn't really to do with sexuality, gender, or physiology, this is a deeper cultural issue to do with how we deal with sexuality and gender. Most people think that culture is something entirely surface, but it goes far, far, deeper… It controls the way you think about things and react to them. So, sad as it is I think Reconjsh probably actually has a very valid point! -not because men are naturally insatiable sexual beats, but because they believe themselves to be.

I can accept this. And as I've said… once we're to a point where we can shower like in Starship Troopers… women and homosexuals in combat arms with men is going to be an issue.

Also, as I've always said… I personally have known homosexuals in combat arms and have no problem with them there, but most people I knew would have.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:02PM
ccs1989 at 1:32PM, March 15, 2007
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Well I assume it's harder to see from the inside. Armies always make the world a better place.

Yep, we're making Iraq a much better place now with our army.

And I'm sure if an army invaded us they'd be making the world a much better place, right?

http://ccs1989.deviantart.com

“If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.”
-Henry David Thoreau, Walden
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:38AM
Phantom Penguin at 1:42PM, March 15, 2007
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kingofsnake
Would it be ok to let straight male and female soldiars share the same showers?
Personally this is a strange argument. I'm a gay man. I can and always have been able to control myself in the shower with straight men. Did I discreetly look? Yes. I assumed they were doing the same. But that was it. I never did anything to make anyone uncomfortable. Are straight people unable to discreetly look and leave it at that? Do gays have more control than straight people? Bwahahahaha!

Not that it's a realistic solution, but by Recon's logic the military needs to recruit a class of people who have self control. Or maybe only recruit eunuchs who won't be distracted. Or require all soldiers to take sex suppression drugs.

So the military is afraid that a gay man may hit on them, since many of the straight men will hit on anything that is warm and vaguely concave?

I wasnt trying to say that gay men or women were sex machines. I just don't think the vast majority of male soldiers would be ok with shareing a shower with a opening gay man.
Honestly i dont care, as long as no one grabs anything i'm cool. I control myself around the few women soldiers i come across, i imagine gay guys could do the same. I say imagine because i've never asked if they think the same thing about guys and straight dudes think about women.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:42PM
Phantom Penguin at 1:50PM, March 15, 2007
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Personally this is a strange argument. I'm a gay man. I can and always have been able to control myself in the shower with straight men. Did I discreetly look? Yes. I assumed they were doing the same. But that was it. I never did anything to make anyone uncomfortable. Are straight people unable to discreetly look and leave it at that? Do gays have more control than straight people? Bwahahahaha!

Self control shouldn't factor into it. I could probably shower communally with a bunch of women and limit myself to looking discreetly. That doesn't mean it's appropriate in a goverment organization.

You never answered my question. Why do they segregate men and women? Is it because of our sexual differences or our physicial ones? Or is it a combination of the two? I'm not saying we should start building gays-only bathrooms or anything, but you can see why there are people who are uncomfortable with the notion.

I know why they do it in the military, which i think is dumb. Women can't have combat jobs because they are afriad the male soldiers will kill themselves trying to protect the females, which is dumb because dieing to protect other soldiers is what we are always told to do if it comes to that. Ive fought with a few women in Iraq and i didnt think anything of it. I yelled at them to shoot at things like i would to a guy.

The shower thing? I don't think that will ever happen. For the fact its been drilled into everyone heads form the age of 1 that men and women should be seperated when they are naked (not count sex). Even more so when bathing.

And the only place ive been that even had group showers was in Basic training. And i was in a all male basic training company so it was not even possible. Co-ed basic like military police..i imagine some crap is going down there.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:42PM
Phantom Penguin at 1:52PM, March 15, 2007
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kingofsnake
You never answered my question. Why do they segregate men and women?

ADULT CONVERSATION BELOW]Well, if I were a female, I'd probably be uncomfortable around 10 showering men “discretly looking” but not so discretly displaying their erections - an involuntary act.

Field rotations sometimes last 15-30 days where men can't get any form of “release”… even the few minutes of alone time for self-release is impossible to come by. I would not want to be in that shower at all… let alone around a woman bathing.


Not to mention the complications of dealing with woman phsyiology and menstral cycles and stuff.

13-30 days? Weak! i was out for 60 once.
But yeah it was hell. Good thing the MPs came with us…heheh.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:42PM
reconjsh at 1:56PM, March 15, 2007
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reconjsh
kingofsnake
You never answered my question. Why do they segregate men and women?

ADULT CONVERSATION BELOW]Well, if I were a female, I'd probably be uncomfortable around 10 showering men “discretly looking” but not so discretly displaying their erections - an involuntary act.

Field rotations sometimes last 15-30 days where men can't get any form of “release”… even the few minutes of alone time for self-release is impossible to come by. I would not want to be in that shower at all… let alone around a woman bathing.


Not to mention the complications of dealing with woman phsyiology and menstral cycles and stuff.

13-30 days? Weak! i was out for 60 once.
But yeah it was hell. Good thing the MPs came with us…heheh.

The longest I ever went without some private time was about 30 days. I've been deployed for much, much longer. lol. Longest I went without a real shower was 14 days I think. Of course, I took a baby wipe shower every day. Longest I went without companionship in the military was much much longer.

Being a scout sucked sometimes. We're always alone.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:02PM
Phantom Penguin at 6:14PM, March 15, 2007
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Phantom Penguin
reconjsh
kingofsnake
You never answered my question. Why do they segregate men and women?

ADULT CONVERSATION BELOW]Well, if I were a female, I'd probably be uncomfortable around 10 showering men “discretly looking” but not so discretly displaying their erections - an involuntary act.

Field rotations sometimes last 15-30 days where men can't get any form of “release”… even the few minutes of alone time for self-release is impossible to come by. I would not want to be in that shower at all… let alone around a woman bathing.



Not to mention the complications of dealing with woman phsyiology and menstral cycles and stuff.

13-30 days? Weak! i was out for 60 once.
But yeah it was hell. Good thing the MPs came with us…heheh.

The longest I ever went without some private time was about 30 days. I've been deployed for much, much longer. lol. Longest I went without a real shower was 14 days I think. Of course, I took a baby wipe shower every day. Longest I went without companionship in the military was much much longer.

Being a scout sucked sometimes. We're always alone.

Most i went without a shower was around 2 weeks when we kicked off the fallujah offensive.

Thats why i loved FOB warhorse so much, tons of MPs and medics….
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:42PM
exalted1 at 9:14AM, March 16, 2007
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how about a non-U.S. perspective?

in the canadian army last year in halifax, nova scotia, two soldiers were married. why is this news? they were both men.
the chaplain couldn't marry them himself bc his denomination did not recognize same-sex marriage but it was still his duty to get them someone who could perform the ceremony such as a justice of the peace.

(We Nova Scotians are still waiting for the meteor that will, eventually destroy us for our godlessness. I'm sure the religious right have sent many emails and memos to god to take care of it. nice people.)

bottom line. if you're a soldier, it's a career. you should act like a professional. you do your job, you don't start crap and there shouldn't be trouble. you're not there to be gay or straight, but to build/blow-up bridges. i have friends who have served in the canadian military (although some say that term is an oxymoron ;) ) with gay soldiers and for most people its not a problem, as long as everybody is professional. that may be the exception, of course. there are always horror stories from minorities serving in the military.

at the end of the day, if a professional soldier cannot abide the presence of a gay man in his unit, then how can HE be expected to crawl over corpse-ridden fields and watch his friends get shot? shouldn't he/she be made of sterner stuff? you may say they aren't the same thing, which is true, but dealing with people who are different from you is life. the top brass should just tell the grunts “suck it up, buttercup, here's your foxhole roommate, since you're both professionals we expect you to behave.” instead of making moral pronouncements.

the very fact that the military brass making moral judgements could even be seen to farcical since theirs is the vocation of war, death, destruction and yes, defense. “oh sorry, your not moral enough to travel to far off countries, meet exotic people, and sometimes kill them.”

but, then, it is a complicated world we live in.

final thought: in order for a military to function it is important for it's members to trust one another. doesn't “don't ask - don't tell” violate that? how can there be trust when people have to commit lies of omission? closeted gays can be blackmailed making them a security risk, but openly gay people can't. it'll be a gay witchhunt all over again if a foreign power uses that policy against you, just like during the cold war. i wouldn't be surprised if “suspected/confirmed homosexuals” are often denied security clearances and promotions in your military (probably in ours, too :( )

well that's my two (or more) bits.
and THIS! IS! SPARTAAAAAAAAAA!

last edited on July 14, 2011 12:24PM
reconjsh at 10:53AM, March 16, 2007
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All good points. I totally agree that soldiers and society just need to suck it up. There's a few points that you missed or had incorrect… I'll help ya.

1) Soldiering isn't a “job” or a “profession”. It's a every-single-second way of life. It's not like you can just “leave it at the office”.
2) I don't think the issue is “something happening” like violence or blackmailing or whatever. I think the issue is a heterosexual man having to do the things I listed in my first post (quoted at the bottom of this post.)
3) You, and other people in this thread,don't understand what “don't ask, don't tell” really means/does for the Army. It DOESN'T mean “keep it secret or we'll kick you out.” It's actually a means of keeping gays IN the military because commanders can NOT legally ask if a subordinate is gay. He can't even speculate. Even if someone else tells him matter of factly, he cannot take action on it. The only way someone gets in trouble for being gay in the military (by the letter of the law, that is) is if they - the gay person - themselves state so to their commander or are witnessed commiting a gay sexual act. Then, they have violated the policy “don't tell” and are thus subject to kicking out. So a soldier is not open to blackmail… since the commander has no way of verifying the information should someone actually be told on. Don't ask, don't tell is actually a great policy while we live in an era where gays are not accepted.

The real issue - as it's been mentioned - is perception. Society sees homosexuals as a second class citizen. It's wrong. It needs to change. I just happen to think there's a better “war front” than “gays in the military” to fight the battle for equality.


Someone
* Shower. In a big 8-20 man stall. Quite literally hip to hip sometimes.
* Wash each other.
* Change in front of one another.
* In a chemical enviroment - wipe each others' butts and jiggle each others penises after peeing. Seriously - it's because you could chemically contaminate yourself… a partner has a less likely chance of that.
* And there's many, many more examples of soldiers being completely or partially nude around one another.
* This is not to mention all the physical contact that can/does occur. Carrying each other, sleeping together, mouth to mouth resuscitation, spooning to keep warm in extreme cold weather, etc etc… all normal actions in certain situations.

Why are doing these things with gay men uncomfortable? For the same reasons they're uncomfortable if done with a women.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:02PM
subcultured at 1:12PM, March 16, 2007
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when there's people shooting at you, it won't matter if they're gay…

most of the major wars was a melting pot in which people of different races come together for a common goal. saving thier company's asses.

that's why the civil right movement gain momentum when AA came back after fighting as hard as everybody only to be faced with oppression.
J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:01PM
reconjsh at 1:27PM, March 16, 2007
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subcultured
when there's people shooting at you, it won't matter if they're gay…

most of the major wars was a melting pot in which people of different races come together for a common goal. saving thier company's asses.

that's why the civil right movement gain momentum when AA came back after fighting as hard as everybody only to be faced with oppression.

But the army ISNT JUSt being shot at…

And we've already discussed why sex and sexual orientation is different than race issues… it's more deeply rooted, whether it be mental or cultural.

It isn't, and never has been, about “gays'” ability to soldier.

But whatever… let's just grow up as a society and stop caring about this crap. Let the gays in… it's been long enough that we've oppressed them.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:02PM
LIZARD_B1TE at 4:54PM, March 16, 2007
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reconjsh
once we're to a point where we can shower like in Starship Troopers… women and homosexuals in combat arms with men is going to be an issue.

You know, I was just about to comment on how much this thread reminded me of that movie. lol!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:36PM

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