Debate and Discussion

US Military, and Homosexuals.
seventy2 at 3:26PM, July 17, 2010
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Currently in the US, Gays are not allowed to serve openly in the Military. Now, a lot of people think this is anti gay, but if you read into the background of gays and the military, It was probably more for their protection. Most people have the attitude of Texans, with as many access to weapons.

I'm cool with it. There's a massive amount of homophobia here, and when people think of Homo's in the military, they imagine suddenly being very rainbow bright and loud. But that's not the way it is. The Homosexuals who would join the military, are just like the ones already in. very conservitive, Definatly not the ones you'd see running around the San Fransico gay pride parades.

——————

I'd like to note here, that i don't feel sympathy for the ones who get kicked out, while i may be against it, it's still a law. If you break the law, you gotta deal with the consequences.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 3:30PM
Product Placement at 4:29PM, July 17, 2010
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Oh boy. I have to admit. I find the whole idea of a conservative homosexual to be hilarious. Although I guess that's me stereotyping them which is bad.

I have very little experience in this matter. All I know is that the military has this “Don't ask, don't tell” policy about it. Then if someone is openly discovered as a homosexual he or she is discharged.

There's no military where I live so it's never been an issue to begin with. Instead the main battle that homosexuals have been fighting for have revolved around marriages. And there was a huge victory in that regard recently. The state church (religion and state is not kept separate around here) recently allowed homosexual weddings putting Iceland in a very small list of nations that allows it. Before that, homosexuals were allowed to register themselves as legal partners which is the government version of a wedding. Therefore the new rule doesn't change much except that they're now allowed to do it in a church and have a priest instead of judge declare them… uhm… partner and partner.
Those were my two cents.
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isukun at 5:41PM, July 17, 2010
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I'd like to note here, that i don't feel sympathy for the ones who get kicked out, while i may be against it, it's still a law. If you break the law, you gotta deal with the consequences.

Just curious, but do you also feel the same way about black who defied segregation laws in the 60s?
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:05PM
seventy2 at 7:37PM, July 17, 2010
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isukun
Just curious, but do you also feel the same way about black who defied segregation laws in the 60s?

different situation. the law is written in such a way, that allows Gay people to serve, they just can't tell their boss they're making whoopee with another dude, (or female to female).

whereareas, blacks were not allowed to do anything
facara
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I'm gonna love you till the money comes, half of it's gonna be mine someday.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:30PM
Product Placement at 8:13PM, July 17, 2010
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I usually don't go to my superior to tell him about my recent conquests anyways but I understand that the logic behind the rule is to protect homosexuals from those who wish to harm him.

However, wouldn't the time and effort in enforcing that rule be better spent trying to increase awareness on homosexuality and why it shouldn't be feared… or hated?

Just my two cents.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 2:53PM
seventy2 at 9:02PM, July 17, 2010
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Oh trust me, we get plenty of training on Sensitivity towards this. Which prolly why they're beginning talks of repealing it altogether. but like i said earlier, the majority of the military are very conservative, and don't like change.

and yes there are gay conservatives. One of the most influential people in my life turned out to be gay (i knew for years before he came out). He eventually became a christian minister.
facara
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I'm gonna love you till the money comes, half of it's gonna be mine someday.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:30PM
Product Placement at 9:41PM, July 17, 2010
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seventy2
and yes there are gay conservatives.
Oh, I don't doubt it. Doesn't stop it from being funny to me, though.

It's just that I have this mental image of conservatives being out in the streets protesting gay rights.

So if gay people are already in the army but you just don't know who's gay or not, how is lifting the “don't ask, don't tell” ban going to change things?

Are people really that afraid that the soldiers are going to start making colorful floats?
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last edited on July 14, 2011 2:53PM
seventy2 at 9:59PM, July 17, 2010
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Product Placement
So if gay people are already in the army but you just don't know who's gay or not, how is lifting the “don't ask, don't tell” ban going to change things?

Are people really that afraid that the soldiers are going to start making colorful floats?

I don't think anything will change within the military if people are now allowed to be open about it. Most people already know who's gay and who isn't. Tho noone's asked and no one can tell, written or verbal.

Soldiers in the military are worried that they'll be raped. no joke, i've heard a few people say that they don't wanna get butt raped.
facara
Running Anew an exercise blog.
I'm gonna love you till the money comes, half of it's gonna be mine someday.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:30PM
Product Placement at 10:08PM, July 17, 2010
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seventy2
Soldiers in the military are worried that they'll be raped. no joke, i've heard a few people say that they don't wanna get butt raped.
Oh, I see! Now the logic behind keeping the identities of the gay soldiers makes sooo much sense to me.

I mean. If you don't know who's gay, how can they possibly rape you?

I would think that someone who's that concerned about his number 2 hole would want to know who he should avoid.

This is hilarious to me, btw. I apologize if anyone here finds this to be a serious matter.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 2:53PM
isukun at 10:12PM, July 17, 2010
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different situation.

Not really. You don't get kicked out of the military for declaring your heterosexuality. Besides, it wasn't that the laws specifically barred black people from doing anything, they established a system of segregation which resulted in further racism. It seems to me that barring homosexuals from any sort of sexual expression in the military only serves two purposes. The first is it keep the vast majority of your more flamboyant homosexuals from ever even considering serving in the military. The second is it reinforces prejudices and unwarranted fear of homosexuals. It was a law written to appeal to people's prejudices against gays, not to protect gays.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:05PM
blindsk at 3:55AM, July 18, 2010
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Oh boy. I have to admit. I find the whole idea of a conservative homosexual to be hilarious.

Surprisingly I run into more of them than I'd expect. The first person I ever knew to be homosexual is rather famous, and he's just that (Elton John).

Actually, my initial guess for the reason this was in place was more along the lines of relationship issues. From what I've heard, even heterosexual couples are harassed when they're spending time together while serving in the military (just downtime even).

It's more difficult to tell with a homosexual relationship. They don't want distractions. ;)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:25AM
seventy2 at 7:14AM, July 18, 2010
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The act of not allowing gays in the military, has been around since the foundation of america. If you look it up, the first gay kicked out was in 1778. I believe he was pretty high ranking. However, homosexuality was viewed as a mental disease until sometime in the 20th century.

Don't ask Don't tell, is a compromise, while allowing anonymity. Let gays in, but they can't say who they are.

Also talking about sex at all at work is against the rules as it's something lewd shouldn't be talked about. And also the Uniform Code of Military Justice has punishment for “Sodomy” which is defined as Non-genital on genital contact, so even heterosexuals can be punished for the sexual persuasions.
facara
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I'm gonna love you till the money comes, half of it's gonna be mine someday.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:30PM
isukun at 7:57AM, July 18, 2010
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And also the Uniform Code of Military Justice has punishment for “Sodomy” which is defined as Non-genital on genital contact, so even heterosexuals can be punished for the sexual persuasions.

Actually, it doesn't. Article 125 is still subject to the precedent set by Lawrence vs. Texas in 2003, at least for consenting heterosexual couples. It stays on the books, however, because the article can still be applied when the accused are in direct violation of another regulation. So in this case, don't ask, don't tell, automatically makes the rule apply to any gay sexual activity. Plus the article still has clauses relating to sex with minors, rape, and bestiality.

So basically, if an officer finds out about a soldiers little homosexual tryst with another consenting adult, they can get the boot under don't ask, don't tell AND get hit up with Article 125. If a heterosexual male soldier goes out and gets a blowjob by a consenting woman, unless their division specifically has a rule against it or he is breaking some other rule to get it, the military can't take any action against it.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:05PM
MicMit at 8:13AM, July 18, 2010
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For me this has been a completely ridiculous issue. I have several friends in the military, most of them are pretty conservative, and my best friend who is actually gay and is joining the military (he's also conservative).

The fact of the matter is with most of them, they find it ridiculous. Anybody who is willing to put their life on the line by joining the military, should be allowed to join. What purpose does it serve to get picky about it, if they're old enough and healthy enough let'em join. Hell, blacks weren't originally allowed to serve in the military, but when they finally were allowed to, they helped the union when the Civil War (granted they had segregated companies, which would be unacceptable now).

Also a thing to note, i haven't checked this myself but according to my gay friend, one of the major reasons we have a shortage of Arabic translators in our current wars is that, oddly enough, a lot of them turned out to be gay. If that's true, the law is really fucking us overl


Plus there's just the name of the law, “Don't Ask, Don't Tell.” What are we, SIX?! How pathetic are we that we have what amounts to sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming LALALALALLA as a functioning part of our military.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:01PM
seventy2 at 8:39AM, July 18, 2010
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isukun
Actually, it doesn't. Article 125 is still subject to the precedent set by Lawrence vs. Texas in 2003

Untrue, unless caught and tried by civilian courts. If a person were to go to trial, under a military tribunal, UCMJ takes presidence.

And the reason we don't have many Arabic linguists, is because of the amount of time it takes to train them to be proficient in the language, most people do their schooling, deploy once, and then their time is up. and then they skedaddle because they've only ever known military training, and none of the regular air force..
facara
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I'm gonna love you till the money comes, half of it's gonna be mine someday.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:30PM
isukun at 9:07AM, July 18, 2010
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If a person were to go to trial, under a military tribunal, UCMJ takes presidence.

Doesn't matter. These aren't really cases which go before a tribunal.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:05PM
Hakoshen at 10:09AM, July 18, 2010
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What I find most ironic about this is all of the homoerotic horseplay that goes on. Not of course, that anyone is ever really serious about it, but considering being gay is one of the worst things you can be while in the armed forces, so many people play around with it. I mean, there were “guy love Thursdays”. Of course, that was more of making fun of it the way that Scrubs did. But still.

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I'm the enemy he requires to define him.
Soon or later, he'll bring me back to life again for another epic encounter of shouting about power levels and grimacing.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 12:41PM
seventy2 at 11:57AM, July 18, 2010
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The whole point i'm trying to make, is not the law behind it, but the fact that i support Gays in the military.
facara
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I'm gonna love you till the money comes, half of it's gonna be mine someday.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:30PM
bravo1102 at 3:04AM, July 19, 2010
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I've probably told this one before but when “Don't ask, don't tell” was established I got a gay corpsman to transfer from the US Navy reserve to my National Guard unit. I did it to play a joke on the homophobes in my unit.

It is an open secret that a majority of US Army medical personnel are gay and among most career soldiers it doesn't matter. When I get the prostate exam it doesn't matter if the medic is gay, straight, getting off or what-have-you. It still eff-ing hurts. If the gay nurse doesn't jump me then will they really butt rape me when I bend over in the shower? I don't think so.

Military dicipline actions start with the counseling statement from the soldier/sailor/Marine/airman's immediate superior which is administered by the UCMJ. So I was taught that the UCMJ took precedence when I picked up that pen to write it (or assist an officer in putting it together). I was only a tank commander but as a leader I had to know what it all meant as I was often the guy on the spot. I started my military career in the middle of a racial incident and the evidence I supplied kept it from getting to a court martial.

Some historical perspective the 1778 date of the first soldier booted out for being gay is important because the UCMJ didn't exist before then being written by Von Steuben and approved by the Continental Congress around that time. Sodomy court martials were rare and heterosexual offences were common. In the same year Washington tried to kick out black soldiers but he was forced to readmit them in the Continental Army by 1780. Eighteenth and nineteenth European armies were racially integrated with blacks being the preferred musicians in all regiments and soldiers in segregated units, but then most units in that period were segregated by the national origin of the recruits.

Many units going back to the Romans practiced “Don't Ask, Don't Tell” and only booted the soldier out when actually caught in the act. So it has a long history and the Greeks proved that whole regiments of lovers made excellent soldiers.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:33AM
Product Placement at 7:14AM, July 19, 2010
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bravo1102
It is an open secret that a majority of US Army medical personnel are gay and among most career soldiers it doesn't matter. When I get the prostate exam it doesn't matter if the medic is gay, straight, getting off or what-have-you. It still eff-ing hurts. If the gay nurse doesn't jump me then will they really butt rape me when I bend over in the shower? I don't think so.
Ok. Even I can see why someone would be concerned about having a gay nurse giving you a prostate exam or perhaps check for testicular cancer. But then again, how would it be different from having a male gynecologist? To him it's just a job.
Those were my two cents.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 2:53PM
mlai at 7:24PM, July 19, 2010
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Someone
But then again, how would it be different from having a male gynecologist? To him it's just a job.
Well… army boys are all young healthy men… Imagine if you're a gynecologist who only had to examine young healthy women… LOL, sounds like a pretty sweet deal.

FIGHT current chapter: Filling In The Gaps
FIGHT_2 current chapter: Light Years of Gold
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:06PM
seventy2 at 3:50AM, July 20, 2010
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mlai
Someone
But then again, how would it be different from having a male gynecologist? To him it's just a job.
Well… army boys are all young healthy men… Imagine if you're a gynecologist who only had to examine young healthy women… LOL, sounds like a pretty sweet deal.
http://media.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/508131/815297.jpg
http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2009/5/26/633789654062219770-ArmyofOne.jpg Pictures are too big. literally.

facara
Running Anew an exercise blog.
I'm gonna love you till the money comes, half of it's gonna be mine someday.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:30PM
kyupol at 5:39PM, July 21, 2010
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I heard this gay joke:

Q: Who is more dangerous? A gay man or a terrorist?

A: A terrorist can blow up your house. But the gay man will only blow your husband. lol!

NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:27PM
mlai at 7:43PM, July 21, 2010
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seventy2
http://media.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/508131/815297.jpg
http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2009/5/26/633789654062219770-ArmyofOne.jpg Pictures are too big. literally.
This reminds me of that slogan on… Hooters, is it?

"We've got 99 beautiful waitresses! And 1 ugly one."

FIGHT current chapter: Filling In The Gaps
FIGHT_2 current chapter: Light Years of Gold
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:06PM
Product Placement at 8:00PM, July 21, 2010
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seventy2
http://media.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/508131/815297.jpg
How on Earth did he get passed boot camp? You'd think the enemy would hit a target that big.

Wow… that was so tasteless, even for me.
Those were my two cents.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 2:53PM
Hakoshen at 9:18PM, July 21, 2010
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So long as he can pass the minimums on the PT test, they'll take just about any kind of physiology these days.
God needed the Devil, the Beatles needed the Rolling Stones, Hakoshen needs me.
I'm the enemy he requires to define him.
Soon or later, he'll bring me back to life again for another epic encounter of shouting about power levels and grimacing.
-Harkovast
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:41PM
seventy2 at 2:42AM, July 22, 2010
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Hakoshen
So long as he can pass the minimums on the PT test, they'll take just about any kind of physiology these days.

Or if you're gay and keep it quiet. but that shouldn't be the way.
facara
Running Anew an exercise blog.
I'm gonna love you till the money comes, half of it's gonna be mine someday.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:30PM
BffSatan at 5:58AM, July 31, 2010
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kyupol
I heard this gay joke:

Q: Who is more dangerous? A gay man or a terrorist?

A: A terrorist can blow up your house. But the gay man will only blow your husband. lol!


As a gay terrorist I take offense.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:21AM

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