Debate and Discussion

Virginity beliefs?
Aurora Moon at 4:53PM, July 2, 2007
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Okay, so I was on another forum aruging with this guy that sex toys couldn't take away an woman's virginity… and boy, was he stuborn!

He claimed that an female's virginity had to do with the hymen…. so if an dildo tore away the hymen, then that woman was no longer a virgin.

but here's the thing…. as I pointed out to him, there's so many different non-sexual ways that you can tear an hymen.

Gymamstics, Bike-riding, Horse-riding and accidents of any kind where your body goes under massive trama from impacts… an woman can get her hymen tore from any of that.
PLUS…. there's women who were born without hymens!

I'm still waiting for him to respond to that, but while I was looking up articles to prove that to him, I discovered some intersting facts about people's certain beliefs on that.

For instance did you know that the Jewish and the Arbian nations don't care so much about the hymen but rather about the blood itself. They say that if an woman bleeds on her wedding night, then that means she's a virgin after all. doesn't matter if there was damage to her hymen, as long as there's blood.

But…there would be a lot of actual virgins who wouldn't bleed on thier first time… because of all the reasons I listed up above.

So I'm intersted… what do YOU, personally define an virgin? Do you believe there's ways to tell whenever an woman's a virgin or not?
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:10AM
Priest_Revan at 5:16PM, July 2, 2007
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A virgin is someone who hasn't had “technical” sex.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 2:48PM
lothar at 5:27PM, July 2, 2007
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I believe that the whole “virginity” thing is a holdover from mideval times and needs to be tossed in the Garbage !! Seriously , Who cares if somebody is a virgin or not ? the idea was created as a way to oppress women ! do you ever hear about mens “virginity” ? it's all rooted in primeval religious cults wanting to subjegate their females ! Don't buy into it !!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:45PM
Aurora Moon at 5:37PM, July 2, 2007
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lol you're quite right lothar.

I too believe that too as well. Although, there's something to be said for the first time you do it with somebody you love. I guess I'm just a romantic…=)

that whole hymen thing to me is bullshit thou.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:10AM
Rori at 5:54PM, July 2, 2007
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Well, not to get too graphic, but there are a lot of people who think you can do “everything but” and still be a virgin. I've also known people who's first time having intercourse was not consensual who didn't think that made them non-virgins. There's a lot of other people who don't fit the mold on “first times” too.

Personally, I agree that we need to just toss the notion. I don't think of sexuality as black & white, and even though this is a bit judgmental, I'd say only the unlucky lose their virginity all at once; it's better as a gradual process ;)
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:11PM
MagickLorelai at 6:50PM, July 2, 2007
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I feel that “traditional sex”, regardless of which gender it's with, is what takes away virginity. Virginity is a state of mind as much as it's a state of being, at least in our culture. I think it's not the hymen that counts, as much as it is having been through the experience of making love to someone else. (Pardon the prudish terminology, I'm just trying to be polite).

I think that virginity shouldn't be a value forced on anyone, but a value that SHOULD be admired; when anyone makes it to 20, 25 without giving up their virginity, it should at least be appreciated, considering the pressure on people to have sex. Of course, that ties into my beliefs that sex should be between two people who truly love each other, and is a very spiritual act when done so.

It's kinda unfair, in my opinion, to trash virgins either way. Or, to insinuate that virginity is an outdated value. It's insulting to people who have the pride in their bodies enough to abstain, and asexual people.

last edited on July 14, 2011 1:50PM
Rori at 8:03PM, July 2, 2007
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I see what you're trying to say, but the term “traditional sex,” esp. when paired with “regardless of gender” either eats itself or becomes rather malleable, to the point of being able to mean virtually any sort of sexual activity. I think this is the biggest problem behind trying to nail down (no pun intended) exactly when you are no longer a virgin using a strict dichotomy, i.e., either you is or you aint, and trying to account for anything other than very straight sex. So far I haven't found an argument that persuades me differently (but I'm open to one).

I don't put a value judgement on a person's sex life. Too often, the elevation of one model leads to the devaluation of another. So I can't say I will sing the virginity's praises any time soon, but nor will I deride it.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:11PM
Alexis at 8:06PM, July 2, 2007
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I think virginity is an outdated concept. If I had to define it I would say it's vaginal sex with penis penetration, but by that definition no gay sex is sex. Most people would say anal counts, so gay men aren't virgins, but by these definitions definatly say that lesbians are eternal virgins. I don't know if you guys know a lot of lesbians, but I can tell you, that's rediculous.
last edited on July 14, 2011 10:49AM
Rori at 8:12PM, July 2, 2007
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I second the ridiculous comment!

When you said “eternal virgins” it made me think of some sapphic fantasy land filled with women in diaphanous gowns frolicking in beautiful fields. Yeah, REALLY ridiculous, but it made me chuckle, so I thought I'd share :)

(a tangent: I read somewhere {I think in “Who Cooked The Last Supper”} that until the 19th century, most Westerners didn't think women could BE lesbian–that they didn't have the sex drive. oh man…)
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:11PM
Puff at 8:19PM, July 2, 2007
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On a similar-but-sort-of-not topic… I've been hearing a lot about ‘virginity and rape’ lately. Personally I think if a woman (or man ? ) is raped, that doesn't mean they lost their virginity, however, I've met quite a few people who don't agree with that, and state that rape takes virginity away if it's the first time you had sex. Personally I think of virginity as a sort of milestone. Everyone (almost) loses it eventually. It's the time you say “Well that was the first time I ever had sex” and by sex, it's your own terms. In my opinion, that would mean two people who both agree to have sex, well, having sex!

It's a very personal matter I suppose. It's a lot like religion, everyone's got their own variation, but it's all basically the same thing.

I do think it's pretty silly that now adays, people (especially 25 and below) get harassed for being virgins. At Least 100 Years Ago, if you were that old and NOT a virgin (especially not married) it was the exact opposite! :0
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last edited on July 14, 2011 2:54PM
ozoneocean at 8:57PM, July 2, 2007
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AH, it's because sexual intercourse means so much in our culture lol!
Of course “virginity” refers to the intact sate of the hymen. That's the literal meaning of the thing. But meanings change and as the other's have intimated when you take it past that it's too broad and too personal to have any real meaning anymore… or at least a meaning that everyone can agree on, unless you go back to the old fashioned one about hymens, because that is all it's actually about I'm sorry to say. All the other stuff is just heaping tangential meanings and 20thC cultural baggage onto a very out dated concept.

What I mean by that is the idea of the “never had sexual intercourse” thing with women and that being equal to purity transferred to a lot of other things: Virgin farmland, virgin territory, virgin olive oil. Yep, it's all related, and because of the stupidity of our culture with its recycling nature those meanings come back onto the original subject and transform it from being a technical state (literally having a hymen in place) to the more fuzzy one of the “idea” of virginity… Of course “virginity” in girls had been long romanticised before, but always the technical meaning retained the same value.

So to conclude; while it originally had everything to do with hymens and still does in a strict sense, with the way we've changed the meaning of the word it can mean anything you want it to: i.e. If something that has never been used in a specific way, or if someone has never done something specific ever before, then they or those things can be said to be “virgin” in regard to the thing that they haven't done.
-That's pretty much the main meaning these days. So everyone and everything in the entire world are “virgins” because there's always something you've never done. lol!
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:27PM
StaceyMontgomery at 9:20PM, July 2, 2007
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Is it me - or do men spend way too much time coming up with sex-based ways to define women?

I mostly define people on the basis of how much money you owe me. That seems more useful.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:55PM
Aurora Moon at 10:34PM, July 2, 2007
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Is it me - or do men spend way too much time coming up with sex-based ways to define women?

well, to be fair, women do that for other women AND MEN too…

like this: “Wow, look at tha sexy man's set of buns! what a stud… but with my luck he's proably some kind of man-slut…”

and: “Did you hear about that woman who was dating her own boss… who was married! Man, talk about an cheap harlot…”

face it, both sexes are just obessed about sex.

I often find myself wondering how with those same people can care SO much about virginity and whenever it counts or not…. its amazing how so many people can be so double-faced… to love sex so much and to be so utterly so amoured with it to the point where they'd make fun of virgins sometimes. But at the same time, to treat virginty like it's some magical thing where it changes people.
they even dare to say things like: “until you have sex, you can't comment on things you don't know about! trust me when it happens for you it'll change your views competely!”

me? I don't quite view it in that same way… I've seen it happen to friends and stuff (not litterally, ew), and they still remained the same in thier viewpoints and stuff.

granted, there's something to be said about your first love, and your first time with him/her/transgender/whatever… and how it can really affect you in a way. After all, they say that you never forget your first love. But I don't see how it could truly change you in the most imporant way–changing your convictions, your beliefs, etc….
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:10AM
maritalbliss at 11:05PM, July 2, 2007
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I have to agree with Ozone…In the “literal” sense of the word, if the hymen is broken you are not a virgin. However, metaphorically…I believe “virginity” to be lost with an act of penetration by another person. Be it a “Coin-Operated Boy” being manipulated by that other person, actual vaginal/penis intercourse, or talented fingers…

I don't think “masterbation” can take away one's virginity. That's just silly.

It's really just a matter of semantics.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:53PM
Rori at 12:49AM, July 3, 2007
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Well, just to put another wrench into this, it's good to remember that it's been a long, strange trip for the word “virgin.” Originally it simply meant unmarried woman, or a woman of nubile age, regardless of sexual history. The baggage just piled up over the years. This is why you see “virgin” goddesses having sex partners in older myths, and none in newer ones (or they're split into sexual and non-sexual aspects); the cultural idea of an independent woman changed.

And the hymen can be broken by heavy exercise (which was already mentioned, I believed), but I don't think anyone really thinks, “damn, the splits took my virginity.”
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:11PM
ozoneocean at 1:21AM, July 3, 2007
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Yes, but then there's the concept and the word… The concept existed before the word and still exists in other cultures in the absence of the word ^_^

The “Virgin” goddesses didn't have sex… Perhaps you mean “maiden”? A very similar thing, but fuzzier even still. Not as strict as the term “virgin”. It had implications of unattached status, ages, etc… But in some ways idea of being sexually active or not wasn't always as clearly defined.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:27PM
DemonSaintDante at 5:22AM, July 3, 2007
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I find this virgin thing funny because I have seen some funny points here. Lesbians = Virgin? for one, sense they might not ever come in contact with a penis does that make them virgins for the rest of there lives.

I guess “any kind of intercourse with another person could be defined as losing your virginity”. That would basically allow anything, though i also know a few people who would be mad at that because it would make them not a virgin.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:10PM
Alexis at 9:55AM, July 3, 2007
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StaceyMontgomery
I mostly define people on the basis of how much money you owe me. That seems more useful.
Yes, virgins would be people who have never owed me money.
last edited on July 14, 2011 10:49AM
Rori at 12:56PM, July 3, 2007
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ozoneocean
Yes, but then there's the concept and the word… The concept existed before the word and still exists in other cultures in the absence of the word ^_^

The “Virgin” goddesses didn't have sex… Perhaps you mean “maiden”? A very similar thing, but fuzzier even still. Not as strict as the term “virgin”. It had implications of unattached status, ages, etc… But in some ways idea of being sexually active or not wasn't always as clearly defined.

The early status of many words translating to virgin meant “unattached” regardless of sexual experience. And many unmarried goddesses were called “virgin” as well as “maiden,” which, btw, is also intertwined with sexual/marital status and youth (but its original form being asexual, unlike virgo). Even the etymology of virgin (from Latin) is controversial, some maintain that it means (roughly) “fit for man” or “beholden to no man.” Neither one really helps that much in regard to determining what, if any physical sexual status can be extracted, unless we know the very intimate details of the society which they were first spoken, which as much as we know, is still, as you say, fuzzy.

Sorry, total etymology nerd here.

But an overall point can be taken from this (beyond trivia)–that word meanings change and die and live according to the cultures that use them. There would be no point in making two words, one for marriageable and experienced, one for marriageable and unexperienced, if the culture dictated that all marriageable women (or men) had to be unexperienced, or on the other hand, if it didn't matter at all. Similar problems can be found with definitions of adultery through the ages. People are so wound up about sex, I think just about all sex words have these problem.

(btw-I like your idea that we're all virgins in some way :))
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:11PM
marine at 2:17PM, July 4, 2007
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Perhaps I should've made it clear, that any contact with a persons genitals, be they male or female, is the point virginity is lost and life becomes the pursuit of touching/having touched genitals.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:52PM
Hijuda at 3:48PM, July 4, 2007
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lothar
do you ever hear about mens “virginity” ?

Yes.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 12:48PM
Phantom Penguin at 4:25PM, July 4, 2007
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First I know I was made fun of for my virginity when I was in highschool, and i'm a guy so it happens.

I know a girl who was raped but still consitered herself a virgin. Was she just saying that because she didn't choose it, or because it didn't count?

Personally I think penetration of the vagina with a penis counts as one looseing their virginity.
As for lesbians. Good question.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:42PM
DemonSaintDante at 5:09PM, July 4, 2007
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Well if having sex for the first time is losing your virginity than any kind of penetration would be considered losing it … whether with your penis or other. (obviously as long as its involving more than yourself.)
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:10PM
Emma_Clare at 2:07AM, July 25, 2007
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Technically a virgin is someone whom has had sexual intercourse with another person. However, some people would still consider themselves a virgin even if they have had sex because of personal reasons. But these days, virginity is not as important. In fact, sex before marriage is preferred nowadays as most women want to know if their man can provide for them in that way ;)


last edited on July 14, 2011 12:21PM
Insane Angelic at 10:58AM, July 25, 2007
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To me….

A person can decide to stop being a virgin. Even if she/he has sex intercours, his/her virginity shall not be lost if they look at it this way- because it's all in their head.

last edited on July 14, 2011 1:00PM
Peipei at 3:57PM, July 25, 2007
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In my opinion, I think that losing one's virginity is something that a woman has the right to decide for herself…what gets to me however, is that noone ever brings up the subject of a man losing his virginity. Like it's “Okay” for a guy to do it, but if a woman loses it, she is instantly a skank…Or atleast that's how it was in my case.

I'd been a virgin till I was 18 and a half, and as soon as I lost it, everyone went nutts, calling me all the names in the book, telling me i'd go to hell in a hen basket, and treating me like a disgraceful human being. And when my brother does it, noone really gets on him about it. I think this is mostly a gender thing. Personally, it's not that big of a deal to me. As long as you lost it to someone you really care about, it's okay.

But anyway, If only the world would've seen women equally, we probably wouldn't even be having this discussion, no muss, no fuss :S I agree with Lothar! Virginity was used to opress and manipulate women! Don't buy in to that garbage :3

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last edited on July 14, 2011 2:41PM
leopardprintstars at 5:05AM, July 27, 2007
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'virginity' is something that our generation is no longer comfortable with , and if they can help it, want to get rid of it as quickly as possible.

most of my friends when i was at high school had lost there virginity by the time they were in year 9 ( 14-15 years old). But me, i was more concerned about drawing and playing my guitar.

also the word Virginity only exists when involving women? has anybody else noticed that? the only time a man mentions the word is when he talks about how many women he has devirginised.
( not all men are like that i know)

but anyway- virginity is lost when a man and woman concent to pentrational sex.
( who ever said that as soon as you break it- you are no longer a virgin? so if you break it when you put a tampon up there….?) need i say nemore.

last edited on July 14, 2011 1:34PM
shadowmagi at 7:44PM, Aug. 4, 2007
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What I find fascinating are all the reasons and how-to's and technicalities people come up with when trying to explain virginity. It makes it seem to me as if they're trying to hide their own guilt or discomfort with the whole idea.

Virginity is defined, from what I've surmised, as penetration. However, as others have stated, does that make every girl who's used tampons (and hasnt had sex) a non-virgin? Certainly not. Breaking the hymen? Also (in my opinion) ridiculous, as most girls do that when they're young and starting to move around a lot more physically. Some don't, because it's thicker, thus taking more force to break it.

The other fascinating thing is, as leapordprintstars pointed out, is how a debate about virginity always veers towards women. That in itself brings up a lot of stereotypes and discrimination in the form of a virgin girl being someone pure and a virgin guy just being a loser who can't get laid. I suppose that whole idea of female purity stems from the whole Virgin Mary deal in the bible. As for the virgin guy being viewed as a loser? Look no further than the movie “The 40 Year Old Virgin”. As a sexually active female it makes me weep, it does.

As per the actual debate concerning when someone has truly lost their virginity, it seems only in recent years that people have decided to come up with all these different theories on how one loses said virginity. No, it's not an idea that's in your head. No, it's not lost by using a tampon. The simplest, least confusing, and most traditional view? It's that virginity means you have not had sexual relations with someone. Sure sometimes it involves penetration, but no it does not count when its a tampon or sex toy or what-have-you. That would be penetration by a P-E-N-I-S. However, penetration is only part of sex, now isn't it? Otherwise could lesbians ever truly lose their virginity? But lets not get into that now. ;D

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last edited on July 14, 2011 3:32PM
Loud_G at 6:05PM, Aug. 17, 2007
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It is not an outdated thing. Nor is it a solely female thing.

A virgin is a PERSON who has not had sex.

I believe it to be a good thing. It requires restraint and not giving into urges and immediate gratification. It is a sign of growth in character.

I wish more people were virgins longer.

I waited til I was married, as did my wife. Did I miss out on anything? nope.

The people that I've seen that attack virginity the most, in my experience, were the first to lose it. It almost seems that they fight so hard against it because deep down they are jealous. But that is just a hypothesis and will get denied vehemently I'm sure. :)

I think it is a good thing and should be promoted not cast down as out dated.
Self control is only one thing obtained from virginity. Health is another. ;)
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last edited on July 14, 2011 1:45PM
mapaghimagsik at 6:18PM, Aug. 17, 2007
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I think waiting from a position of restraint and not giving into urges for immediate gratification is commendable. I think it only show the person can resist urges for sex, however, and doesn't say much about character in general.

I do not think virginity is a good nor bad thing. Not having sex because of some sort of puritanical limitation or because one is afraid or fears community backlash is…well sad.

Frankly, we have no idea of knowing if we're better or worse for waiting or not waiting. We don't get to walk that – or any path really – again.

One hopes the decision whether to remain a virgin or not is something that is made from a position of strength, not weakness.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM

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