Debate and Discussion

What does America stand for?
ccs1989 at 8:04AM, Aug. 31, 2007
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I like America because of it's history, social mobility (at least in the past) and the fact that it's still a pretty great country to live in as long as you're at least a middle class citizen. However I think it gets hurt by our culture of frivilous lawsuits where large amounts of money go back and forth but don't really help the economy, and I think at the moment we need some sort of universal health care system that can coexist with a private sector. We also need to simplify the tax laws.
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“If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.”
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:39AM
TnTComic at 8:15AM, Aug. 31, 2007
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bobhhh
TnTComic
bobhhh
Wow, I'm sorry to see some of you find so little to say about America's good points.

That's not the question the thread poses, is it?


bobhhh
So I am curious, grab a soap box and tell me why you love America, and try to be honest about what you think is still wrong with her.

Why you love America would be the “Good Points”.

Did you really misunderstand that, or is playing symantics just too hard for everybody around here to resist. :p

The question the thread title asks is different than what the initial poster asks. Big distinction.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:31PM
DAJB at 9:05AM, Aug. 31, 2007
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I've seen quite a few threads around the net recently where Americans seem to take great delight in criticising the shortcomings of the US.

Speaking as an outsider (i.e. a Brit) I'd say one of the key things both our nations stand for is the very ability to make those criticisms.

There's a lot wrong with Western democracies in general (and the US - being the largest - in particular) but no one is going to “disappear” you for saying so.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:03PM
TnTComic at 9:37AM, Aug. 31, 2007
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DAJB
I've seen quite a few threads around the net recently where Americans seem to take great delight in criticising the shortcomings of the US.

I criticize my country for the same reason I criticize comics, you don't improve something by blowing sunshine up its ass.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:31PM
mapaghimagsik at 9:39AM, Aug. 31, 2007
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DAJB
I've seen quite a few threads around the net recently where Americans seem to take great delight in criticising the shortcomings of the US.

I criticize my country for the same reason I criticize comics, you don't improve something by blowing sunshine up its ass.


So where's this feeling of ‘great delight’? I have yet to see the following post:

“It is to my great delight that I post that America is not #1 in health care.”

Sorry, haven't seen it.

So by all means, do not post anything but America is #1. People might think you enjoy posting bad things about America. And you TnT, you're not clapping loud enough. Clap louder.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
Vindibudd at 10:28AM, Aug. 31, 2007
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ozoneocean
I post in all the forums, and usually the Top Drawer holds the funniest threads, But this one has just taken the prize for the funniest for this week. Honestly :)

Oh man, poke a jingogist in the ego and watch him SQUEEL! lol!

Reciting simple facts means I am a jingoist? Let's see what the definition of this favorite word of leftists actually is:

jingoism n. Extreme nationalism characterized especially by a belligerent foreign policy; chauvinistic patriotism.

Explaining the reasons why the United States is considered a superpower by political scientists is not advocating a belligerent foreign policy, nor is it patriotic in the least, much less chauvinistic or even feministic for that matter. So please explain to me how you arrived at jingoist from what I said, please quote and compare for clarity.

ozoneocean
Vindi, I have to hand it to you man, that spirited, excited, offensive defence of manhood is something to be treasured. …and even it were entirely true the fact of its truth would make it entirely unnecessary, logically. But I'm afraid it's not, my point stands and is actually made stronger, ironically: Patriotism and Jingoism (as mapaghimagsik says), makes fools of us and blinds us to the real world.
Hubris.

Again, what part of my response to you indicates that I am defending anyone's manhood?

ozoneocean
Ha! I can say that the US is good and I can say that it's the strongest, but that's not enough for the Jingoist, it must be "THE STRONGEST EVER!!“ and ”THE BEST EVER!!". And I'm sure your dad could beat up other people's dads as well. ;)

The fact of the matter is that it actually is the strongest ever. Please give me a legitimate response rather than resorting to name-calling.

ozoneocean
Look, I'm not going to debate any further on just how strong the US is and why it is, because that's not the point here and only goes off into further levels of ego defending or bruising, what you ask from me at that stage is equivalent to a woman telling you: "Oh love, you know the best lover I've ever had!“ (”this week…" ). No.

This is not remotely applicable to the issue of your erroneous comment that the United States is not a superpower and furthermore that the word “superpower” is obsolete. But that doesn't matter when you can hurtle “jingoist” at me does it?

last edited on July 14, 2011 4:42PM
joeychips at 1:01PM, Aug. 31, 2007
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We are so far removed from what the framers of the Constitution intended that it is not even funny. I am not saying they were perfect, but see http://www.originalintent.org/
Joe Chiappetta
www.SillyDaddy.net
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:10PM
Hawk at 11:36AM, Sept. 1, 2007
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Vindibudd, one thing to note is that on Drunk Duck we have plenty of non-Americans, and many of them are tired of the American bravado that sometimes escapes us. It's totally okay to love your country (and I wish more people did) just be careful to understand why some non-Americans may get defensive over our nationalism.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:46PM
Vindibudd at 12:16PM, Sept. 1, 2007
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Hawk
Vindibudd, one thing to note is that on Drunk Duck we have plenty of non-Americans, and many of them are tired of the American bravado that sometimes escapes us. It's totally okay to love your country (and I wish more people did) just be careful to understand why some non-Americans may get defensive over our nationalism.

I am not being a nationalist with regards to why the US is a superpower. If Swaziland had what the US has in terms of worldwide cultural and military capability then I would be saying Swaziland is a superpower. Call a spade a spade.


I know that people here are from all over the world. That doesn't mean that suddenly it is open-season on all things American. And I see more Americans talking about how bad their country is than citizens of other countries. I am just of the opinion that I am not going to sit around and mope because of one or two less than spectacular aspects of the country.

Like for instance, I am not going to say, yeah we would TOTALLY destroy X country, because that is not what it is about. I am proud of my country and it is too bad that more people weren't proud of their own countries.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:42PM
imshard at 12:28AM, Sept. 3, 2007
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An now for an inconvenient interruption to an ongoing argument!!!
(which will probably be promptly ignored….)

I like America. Its a nice set of continents.

*Uncomfortable silence full of strange looks*

Oh! I'm sorry I wasn't supposed to be circumspect, my bad.
Nonetheless I will continue describing my perspective.
For ease of categorization America is divided into the three areas North/Central and South. The inhabitants of America are a bunch of crazies centered by a bunch of salt'o'th'earth type of folks. Within each of the constituent regions there are great polarizations and partitions between rich and poor. Some of the nations are Rich though many tend to be called poor for various reasons. The countries viewed as “poor” usually just lack a middle class with wealth centralized in the upper-crust of society. This results in paupered masses though the reality is there's probably enough to spare in most places.

The South has extraneous mineral, and natural wealth that is controlled by communistic interests. The same interests conflict with the North even as it slowly converts Central. Central is unremarkable in the eyes of the international community except as a center of narcotics traffic. The North is dominated by three large nations. The smallest is plagued by its old Patron-based style economy left over from the colonial era. The 2nd largest is widely viewed as gentle, peaceful, and quiet country. It is praised for its success though many deride it as a simple extension of its large southern (and western) neighbor: The largest nation of the Americas. If anybody is still reading congratulations on not getting bored and moving on. This large nation is one of the biggest in the world; the United States of America.

The United States of America is my home.
If you'll permit me I'd like to talk about it exclusively instead of just America in general. I consider myself a native. I was born here, my parents were born here, and my grandparents as well. I have visited all of the Americas, yet this one nation of the north continent sits on my favorite area. After all it has such variety of landscape. Tall mountains full of green vales. Red deserts dominated in places with megaliths of ancient stone. Sweeping savannas covered in tall waving grass, and dappled by farms and grazing wildlife. Access to both the great oceans tat are so similar yet so different at the same time. That is what I love most about this place: the land. it is land I would die for to preserve it both for my posterity and its own aching beauty. (don't mock me). Once again thank you for continuing to read this.

The people I care less for. Long years of experiencing their full spectrum first-hand has left both bitter and hopeful at the same time. Bitter at the utter mess they and their fore bearers have made. A mess they complain of but do nothing about. Hopeful, because they continue to live in a system where any person can live as he or she sees fit. It is governed by the Will of the People. Though they mostly choose to ignore it and let their representatives rule for them. It is the ultimate meritocracy. While the dictionary may not agree with that word it is the best one I can come up with. (The other way is Federal Democratic Republic). Anyone may stand up and change his world as he sees fit here and face no repercussions. That is another thing I love.

In my opinion anybody that takes a dim view of this country from within forgets to take a dim view of themselves. It is of their own sloth that things are as they complain they are. Those that take a dim view of us from outside I thank for keeping us accountable and aware of our own follies. The details are ultimately rubbish that may or may not be remembered a few years from now.
I charge the complainers and everyone else dis-satisfied to take hold of their rightful controls over their so-called “representative”. If he will not come to heel then remove him for he has forgotten his duty. The citizenry may well choose to stay asleep in this country. To do so is to consent I advise them.

And now for my closing statements.
To everyone: “stand up and have done what you desire, it is your right in this nation.
For once use your own hands and tongue to correct and make the actions you want.
Our policies and actions domestically and internationally are YOUR CALL”
To anybody who will continue to deride their own nation:
“Dude, shut your pie hole, it ain't helping. Don't like sumthin? You want something done? Then hoof it and do it yourself like the rest of us. Say it to ya congress, dont spray it to ya neighbors. Quit abusing your right to free speech, by making us hate it and you with your tirades.”
To anybody who will Never be happy no matter what (you know who you are)
I invite you to go find someplace better.

To actually answer the premise question of this thread:
The United States of America stands for free government and what people do with their nation when it is governed by the Will of the People. Or lack thereof.

And now I return you to your regularly scheduled idiosyncrasies, useless in-fighting, and pointless arguments over detail. Thank you for your time and enjoy!
Don't be a stick in the mud traditionalist! Support global warming!

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last edited on July 14, 2011 12:57PM
TnTComic at 8:01AM, Sept. 3, 2007
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I didn't realize we had 8 continents.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:31PM
imshard at 11:54AM, Sept. 3, 2007
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TnTComic
I didn't realize we had 8 continents.

Whuh?
Don't be a stick in the mud traditionalist! Support global warming!

Tech Support: The Comic!! Updates Somedays!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:57PM
TnTComic at 5:19AM, Sept. 4, 2007
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imshard
For ease of categorization America is divided into the three continents North Central and South.

Central America is not a continent.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:31PM
Loud_G at 7:38AM, Sept. 4, 2007
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I am grateful to be living in the United States. It is a land of great freedoms and many rights. It is not TOTALLY free and the rights are not always EQUALLY distributed, but it is a work in progress. That is the beauty of America. Our daily lives go on and we can live basically how we want. The election of one president over another is never as problematic as getting a new monarch or dictator (no matter the opinions on the various heads of state). The general quality of life has never been drastically altered for the worse with a change in government here. This is one of the great things. No one man can come in and mess up the country beyond recognition. It is a remarkable system that keeps everything working.

Things could be better. This is true of anything.

We have a checkered past. This is true of every country.
I am not a fan of the 1800's US history. There was a lot of persecution, religious and otherwise. A lot of my ancestors were driven from the country because of their beliefs and the Governor of Misouri passed an extermination bill against members of my church. But eventually through the power of the people things were fixed. Freedoms restored. Redresses made. That is what make this country great. It seeks to prevent repeation of the past. It strives to move forward. There are bumps in the road but we make it through.

I am not a fan of mass media or super-capitolism (aka big business/corporations). These things are a bad influence during our current era, but hopefully the system we have in place will fix them too.

I love the US. I do not agree with its every policy, but it is a good country to live in.
Find out what George is up to:

 
 
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last edited on July 14, 2011 1:46PM
imshard at 8:53AM, Sept. 4, 2007
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TnTComic
imshard
For ease of categorization America is divided into the three continents North Central and South.

Central America is not a continent.

Even so how did you get 8 out of that?
Why does it even matter?
Yes, central america is considered part of north america.
You also ignored where I said “for ease of categorization”.
Sorry if my engrish is too evlvd fr u hxxor!
If you dont agree with my words then make a real counter-point,
Don't resort to nit-picking wrods like a politician or a child.
Don't be a stick in the mud traditionalist! Support global warming!

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last edited on July 14, 2011 12:57PM
Hawk at 9:33AM, Sept. 4, 2007
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Mod Note —- Guys, I removed the spat about language, for the sake of a cleaner, clearer discussion.

Vindibudd
I know that people here are from all over the world. That doesn't mean that suddenly it is open-season on all things American. And I see more Americans talking about how bad their country is than citizens of other countries. I am just of the opinion that I am not going to sit around and mope because of one or two less than spectacular aspects of the country.

That's something I can definitely agree with. I'm not trying to quell national pride, I was just explaining why you may be getting some resistance to your pro-America sentiment.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:46PM
TitanOne at 11:00AM, Sept. 4, 2007
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bobhhh
Wow, I'm sorry to see some of you find so little to say about America's good points.

I could go on all day about America's past good points. I don't have much to say that's good about the present state of affairs.

And I really don't blame liberals who are too angry to wave the flag right now. We have very serious problems and the biggest problem, as I see it, seems to be the fact that our democratically-elected politicians (in both prevailing parties) seem unwilling to listen to public opinion whenever the money of special interest groups is on the table. Which is almost all the time. I am not talking about lobbies like the NRA. I'm talking about the very deep pockets of Big Oil, the military-industrial complex, and many other giant sources of campaign funding and political clout.

The War in Iraq–which I consider only one of the smaller national crises on the boiler–has very clearly been ‘vetoed’ by the American public. Yet is it ending? Nope. Will US troops ever be pulled out of Iraq? I doubt it. The money people who run our system behind the scenes want the troops there, so they will stay. Simple as that. And the American people can shake their little fists all they want. The people do not own our corrupt political leaders, and have little sway over their agendas or what they do.

Unfortunately, as we progressively grow more socialist with a larger, more bloated federal government (again, under both prevailing political parties), this all only grows worse. The more statist and centralized the government gets, the more hands are going to be in the cookie jar.
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TnTComic at 11:13AM, Sept. 4, 2007
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The fact that there's a volkswagen that gets 100km/gal, and is not allowed for sale in the United States is a pretty damn fine example of why i'm pissed off at my country.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:31PM
mapaghimagsik at 12:29PM, Sept. 4, 2007
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Hawk
Mod Note —- Guys, I removed the spat about language, for the sake of a cleaner, clearer discussion.

That's something I can definitely agree with. I'm not trying to quell national pride, I was just explaining why you may be getting some resistance to your pro-America sentiment.

I thought pride was a sin, in judeo-christian myth.

I don't think there's a problem listing off America's good points. Having the toughest military may or may not be a fact, but I'm curious how its “good”.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
Vindibudd at 12:41PM, Sept. 4, 2007
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mapaghimagsik
I thought pride was a sin, in judeo-christian myth.

Wow, here you go running off about something that you do not believe in and are ignorant of all at the same time.

You are welcome to point out how judeo-christianity is a myth. I see synagogues and churches every day. I am pretty sure they are not holograms or mirages.

mapaghimagsik
I don't think there's a problem listing off America's good points. Having the toughest military may or may not be a fact, but I'm curious how its “good”.

Because who would want a tough military when an ineffective one is SO much better. That's right guys, go out there and lose because that's always the best! Who wants to stop a concentration camp anyway? I mean who cares about the Constitution of the United States and defending it?

And people wonder why Democrats suck at foreign policy in the national eye.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:42PM
mapaghimagsik at 12:50PM, Sept. 4, 2007
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So pride isn't a deadly sin?

I really don't think the false dichotomy and hysterical comments really help. So we have a strong military. How is that “good”? Sure, it was good when we helped eliminate the concentration camps, but we also have things like the Mai Lai massacre.

So, having a strong military isn't a good unto itself.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
Vindibudd at 12:58PM, Sept. 4, 2007
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mapaghimagsik
So pride isn't a deadly sin?

Having pride in something and being prideful are two different things. I know this level of complexity is difficult but try to follow along. Pride can be used to describe one's feeling of having self-respect and it can also be used to describe being conceited. For example, having pride in your work means you are putting your best effort into it. Firmly being convinced of your own superiority to all others and elevating yourself above other people is the “pride” you are referring to.

So I have pride in my country and I am proud of what good my country has done.


mapaghimagsik
I really don't think the false dichotomy and hysterical comments really help. So we have a strong military. How is that “good”? Sure, it was good when we helped eliminate the concentration camps, but we also have things like the Mai Lai massacre.

So, having a strong military isn't a good unto itself.

And having a bad military is a better option?
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:42PM
mapaghimagsik at 1:03PM, Sept. 4, 2007
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Vindibudd
mapaghimagsik
So pride isn't a deadly sin?

Having pride in something and being prideful are two different things. I know this level of complexity is difficult but try to follow along. Pride can be used to describe one's feeling of having self-respect and it can also be used to describe being conceited. For example, having pride in your work means you are putting your best effort into it. Firmly being convinced of your own superiority to all others and elevating yourself above other people is the “pride” you are referring to.

So I have pride in my country and I am proud of what good my country has done.


Sounds like something people who are ‘proud’ have to watch out for.




And having a bad military is a better option?

That's that false dichotomy again. The choice isn't strong or weak military. The choices are what is done with it. The issue isn't strength vs weakness, but twofold: 1) Are you willing to have a strong military to the point you neglect your own infrastructure. The alternative isn't a weak military, but perhaps not spending as much as your top five rivals combined.

2) If having a strong military is all you need, then you're subscribing to “might makes right”, while I subscribe to “might for right” which Vietnam and this current conflict don't hold to same standard and commitment at WWII.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
Vindibudd at 1:13PM, Sept. 4, 2007
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mapaghimagsik
That's that false dichotomy again. The choice isn't strong or weak military. The choices are what is done with it. The issue isn't strength vs weakness, but twofold: 1) Are you willing to have a strong military to the point you neglect your own infrastructure. The alternative isn't a weak military, but perhaps not spending as much as your top five rivals combined.

2) If having a strong military is all you need, then you're subscribing to “might makes right”, while I subscribe to “might for right” which Vietnam and this current conflict don't hold to same standard and commitment at WWII.

You asked how having a strong military was “good.” My response is, how is having a strong military NOT good? Then you reply, having a strong military is not a “good unto itself” which is a completely different conversation altogether.

So if you are not asking me why having a strong military is “good,” but are rather asking, how is a strong military a good unto itself, then my response to you is:

a military is a tool and is only used for a “good” purpose if the people wielding it are “good,” however that is defined.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:42PM
mapaghimagsik at 1:17PM, Sept. 4, 2007
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That actual question was:

Having the toughest military may or may not be a fact, but I'm curious how its “good”.

You reduced that to having a “strong” military. So, you might want to ponder the original question.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
Vindibudd at 1:20PM, Sept. 4, 2007
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mapaghimagsik
That actual question was:

Having the toughest military may or may not be a fact, but I'm curious how its “good”.

You reduced that to having a “strong” military. So, you might want to ponder the original question.

It is good because it guarantees your right to sit on your computer and complain about it.

Is that clearer?
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:42PM
mapaghimagsik at 1:38PM, Sept. 4, 2007
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Vindibudd
mapaghimagsik
That actual question was:

Having the toughest military may or may not be a fact, but I'm curious how its “good”.

You reduced that to having a “strong” military. So, you might want to ponder the original question.

It is good because it guarantees your right to sit on your computer and complain about it.

Is that clearer?

No, and comes across more as kneejerk canard than something thought out.

*how* does it guarantee that right? Lots of other nations have much smaller militaries, and seem to have just as much posting (if not more) ability as I. Or perhaps Ozoneocean is more oppressed than we realize, you know, being a fellow former penal colony and all. And Ozone, if you're that oppressed, let us know, and we'll try to miss your house with the bombs.

I would say it was a poor purchase – after all, we've had a perfectly strong nuclear deterrant for ages. How many times do you need to blow up the earth before you think you're safe?

The rights of people to be free to speak their minds cannot be achieved by military force alone. “Erst kommt das Fressen, dann die Moral.” as the phrase goes.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
Vindibudd at 7:05PM, Sept. 4, 2007
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mapaghimagsik
No, and comes across more as kneejerk canard than something thought out.

*how* does it guarantee that right? Lots of other nations have much smaller militaries, and seem to have just as much posting (if not more) ability as I. Or perhaps Ozoneocean is more oppressed than we realize, you know, being a fellow former penal colony and all. And Ozone, if you're that oppressed, let us know, and we'll try to miss your house with the bombs.

I would say it was a poor purchase – after all, we've had a perfectly strong nuclear deterrant for ages. How many times do you need to blow up the earth before you think you're safe?

The rights of people to be free to speak their minds cannot be achieved by military force alone. “Erst kommt das Fressen, dann die Moral.” as the phrase goes.

Only a leftwing fanatic would think of a strong military for the United States as a bad thing. But Vindi, you will say, I never said it was a BAD thing. Which is of course your elaborate dance to avoid being nailed down to any one position. Why have principles when you can constantly move the goal-post when it suits you? It must be really odd having so much self-loathing as to not understand that a strong national defense is the most critical facet of the United States (or any country for that matter) surviving, but hey, I'm sure you would like nothing better than to not have a United States anymore. Self-loathing must be really awesome.

As for other countries that don't have strong militaries, how many of them rely on the United States' military for security? I am sure that if the U.S. went away, Australia (since you went there) would have no difficulty handling China.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:42PM
mapaghimagsik at 8:47PM, Sept. 4, 2007
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heh. You really do want to argue what you *think* I typed, which is about a “strong” military. When what I'm talking about is the desperate desire to have the “toughest”. In every situation. Anyone can see how that results in a sucker bet, where all your resources get spent on a military solution, when not all the world's problems get solved with a hammer.

last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
imshard at 8:49PM, Sept. 4, 2007
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I fail to see what this has to do with America's principles.
Having a strong military is essential to the national defense and whether people like it or not that involves foreign involvement as well. We are no longer the isolationist island of the 1920s. Our fates and livelihoods are entangled with those of the world community.

Convenient politic finger pointing has no greater bearing on our lives than who happens to be in office. Whatever partisan affiliation the current president holds makes no difference in the end. Because that president will be faced with the same situations and the decisions that result are ultimately going to bear the same results.
The bickering and in-fighting is pointless. When all is said and done the politicians are all still drinking buddies who think they are playing a game. Clinton, Bush and the rest all go to the same cocktail parties. They leave the populous to do their fighting for them, and reap the spoils for their own benefit.

Problem is they are playing with the lives of my two friends in Iraq right now.
It was three only 2 months ago. Whether you like or not we are in the middle east now and have an obligation to stay, and tend to our messes. So by all means continue to flipflop like a democrat or ignore facts like a republican. The fact remains We have the best military and they DO protect our interests and assure YOUR health and happiness. Even if it means going to war in a place we weren't supposed to go.
It kinda sickens me that its even a debate item of whether we should have a strong military. It disgusts me that somebody could have shame for for their protectors.
To consider anything other than having and taking pride in a strong force is suicidal, both for us and the 15 countries that are dependent upon us for protection.
Don't be a stick in the mud traditionalist! Support global warming!

Tech Support: The Comic!! Updates Somedays!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:57PM

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