Debate and Discussion

What if Homophobia isn't really about hating gay men, it's about hating excessive passivity and femininity?
Aurora Moon at 8:50AM, Jan. 28, 2007
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I found this intersting article here.

basically what it says:
Someone
Very few people are or historically have been actually homophobic.

That's not to say that gay people haven't been persecuted at times or that a lot of people don't think gay sodomy is morally wrong today. Obviously, both are true.

But homophobia as being afraid or put off by gay people isn't at all common, and I don't think it really ever has been. The source of the disgust doesn't come so much from the idea of two men being in love or the mechanics of gay sex (all sex is pretty disgusting when you get down to the mechanics, I mean), the disgust comes from passive, feminine homosexuals.

In prison, a guy who rapes another guy isn't really considered gay, and he's not looked down on except that he's raping another guy. If the recipient is willing in exchange for protection, then you think almost nothing at all about it. The active homosexual isn't a “fag”, he's a dude who has sex with men. The recipient is the one who turn your nose up at, especially if he goes along with it without compulsion.

Look back in history. For Greeks and Romans, gay relationships happened extremely commonly. But, there would be a scandal if it was found out the older partner was the one receiving the thrusts from the boy or younger man.

The reason is, homosexuality isn't despised because men are having sex, it's despised because it turns one man into a woman. The insult of “pussy” has existed in various forms probably as long as gender roles have existed. Militarily, you insult a warrior's honor by calling him weak like a woman. At least one of the Roman emperors had a habit of disgracing his soldiers by making them take off their belts and let their tunics fall to their ankles to look a dress.

From the wikipedia article on the Hittite military oath:

“On one occasion, for example, women's clothing, a spindle and an arrow is brought before those swearing their allegiance. The arrow is broken, and they are told that should they break their oath, their weapons should likewise be broken, and they should be made women and given women's tasks. Then, a blind and deaf woman is brought before them, and they are told that if they break their word, they will be made blind and deaf women like this one.”

The idea of Alexander the Great pounding young men in the ass doesn't diminish him as a masculine figure at all. You could even argue it enhances it. But for him to get rammed by his military officers? Suddenly, he's an effeminate weakling.

Almost no one likes men who are weepy, emotional, cum receptacles. If you talk about how bad you want a guy to stick it in your ass, you'll probably get punched in the face, or at least people will want to. A straight guy who is weepy and emotional is almost as distasteful, while a masculine homosexual (even if he talks about wanting to fuck someone) is nowhere near that.

But what is the stereotypical gay man in America? A hotpants wearing, lisp-speaking effeminate woman sans the tits and plus a cock. It is this that people hate, not the sexual habits of the person.

Summary: effeminate behavior is more of a sin than sexual behavior, in people's minds.

so what do you think?
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:09AM
ozoneocean at 9:18AM, Jan. 28, 2007
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That's a very colloquial style… Looks like a blog post :)
There may be an element of truth to it at that! I know I can't stand to listen to what used to be my favourite local radio station anymore because all the men have effeminate voices and it grates on the brain… None of them are gay, it's just that whoever hires the talent must like men who sound effeminate.
It'd be better if they actually were gay, it'd give them a reason to sound that way.

I don't know if the problem is femininity though… Maybe it's just a thing about people putting on an act? Behaving artificially? I mean, being all girly isn't even natural for women, it's something they learn to do and even then girls aren't “girly, girly” all the time. Is “female” necessarily synonymous with “feminine”? I don't think it is, not at all! At least in certain senses. :)

Excessively “girly” behavior in women can become annoying, it's not surprising that men doing it too gets on people's nerves, (not to condone bad behavior toward Gay people in any way shape or form), so perhaps the real trouble is artificiality?
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:25PM
Aurora Moon at 10:56AM, Jan. 28, 2007
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you certainly have a very good point about that “articital” acting..
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:09AM
kyupol at 11:19AM, Jan. 28, 2007
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it's about hating excessive passivity and femininity?


Almost no one likes men who are weepy, emotional, cum receptacles. If you talk about how bad you want a guy to stick it in your ass, you'll probably get punched in the face, or at least people will want to. A straight guy who is weepy and emotional is almost as distasteful, while a masculine homosexual (even if he talks about wanting to fuck someone) is nowhere near that.

Survival of the fittest. The strong live, the weak die. I think I ranted about this before in my little space in the author's notes…

Weakness is always punished… one way or another. As if its a sin.

Some of the punishments duked out to pussified men:

1) Wiped off the dating ladder. Thats how it is. No chick will like a dude who is pussified. They like dudes with dicks. Not vaginas. Thats how it is. Speaking from experience. when I was a needy wuss, pussy runs away from me. When I became “stronger”, pussy sometimes got handed to me on a platter. But since I'm *almost* too fucking jaded, I've refused pussy often. lol I'm like… FUCK YOU WHEN ONCE UPON A TIME I WAS BEGGING FOR PUSSY NONE WAS GIVEN TO ME! NOW I DONT NEED THAT, YOU'RE GIVIN IT TO ME?!? FUCK YOU!!! lol


2) Less respect from other men. No man wants a weak leader. Once governments show weakness, thats when rebellions happen and when people betray you. People's loyalty is commensurate to your amount of strength. Show weakness, and people around you wont respect you. Again speaking from experience. Once I became “stronger”, I dont get anymore shit from my family members. I still dont trust them though. Because once I show weakness, I'd be torn apart like a dead carcass in the desert by a pack of fuckin vultures.


3) More shit gets handed to you. I used to be a skinny wimpy kid and I got shit from all the other kids. Everyone wanna beat my ass. Why? Because my weakness got projected out of my body… and I'm like a fucking wounded deer in the jungle. But now when I walk into a bar or when I went to my old school, some people looked at me with FEAR. That the other students thought I'm gonna columbine the school. Do I really look that fearsome? Like… shit… I still think there's alot of remnants of my old pussiness in me.


4) In religion, “sin” is classified as a “weakness” of man. Resisting sin is the foundation of VIRTUE. And it is VIRTUE that gets you into heaven. Not sin. or weakness.


5) “Fortune favours the brave” – VIRGIL–
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last edited on July 14, 2011 1:25PM
Black_Kitty at 11:35AM, Jan. 28, 2007
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ozoneocean
Excessively “girly” behavior in women can become annoying, it's not surprising that men doing it too gets on people's nerves, (not to condone bad behavior toward Gay people in any way shape or form), so perhaps the real trouble is artificiality?

I think you make a great point although I'll like to extend that to say it's more of perceived artificiality. If I dressed up in frilly little outfits and talked about how red lipstick goes so much better on me then pink, people who don't know me probably wouldn't bat an eye. But this is artificiality. I don't know a thing about make-up and excessive frills aren't things I wear. But traditionally, this is accepted female behaviour so therefore, it's not perceived as artificial.

I think part of homophobia comes from how homosexuality challenges traditionally perceived gender roles. For some, effeminate behaviour is okay as long as it fits into the right gender role.

Completely on the side here but…what's up with calling women “pussy”? I don't refer to men as “cocks.” And everytime someone uses “pussy” to refer to women, I get this image in my head of some guy talking to my crotch. Maybe there's some confusion but for your information, my crotch isn't going to answer back.
  
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:24AM
ozoneocean at 12:37PM, Jan. 28, 2007
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Black_Kitty
Completely on the side here but…what's up with calling women “pussy”? I don't refer to men as “cocks.” And everytime someone uses “pussy” to refer to women, I get this image in my head of some guy talking to my crotch. Maybe there's some confusion but for your information, my crotch isn't going to answer back.
That's funny, I never call anyone a “pussy” even in a pejeoritive sense, but I do call some people “cocks”, only in a pejoritive sense though. lol! But talking to a crotch… That's a hillarious image, and somehow I think it'd be quite fun. :)

Aaaaanyway… Yes, you have quite a good point there about gender roles. But still, it's put-on behaviour and it's not endering. Like an actor that does their performance with the public: Ali G, or Dame Edna Everidge. They're anoying. Ah, that's Camp for you.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:25PM
kyupol at 6:43PM, Jan. 28, 2007
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I think part of homophobia comes from how homosexuality challenges traditionally perceived gender roles.


Traditional gender roles will always persist even 1000 years from now… as long as human civilization is intact.

Any attempt to screw up “traditional” gender roles will result in a collapse of society. The society will not collapse if its members realize the error of their ways and revert back to tradition.

Ever heard of the term “New Silent” generation? The term refers to people born year 2000 onwards. They are expected to imitate the attitudes of people in the 1920s… yep. like granny and gramps. :)
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last edited on July 14, 2011 1:25PM
Black_Kitty at 8:39PM, Jan. 28, 2007
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ozoneocean
That's funny, I never call anyone a “pussy” even in a pejeoritive sense, but I do call some people “cocks”, only in a pejoritive sense though. lol! But talking to a crotch… That's a hillarious image, and somehow I think it'd be quite fun. :)

Indeed there are many fun things that could occur if one mistakens the crotch for a face. But alas, this is a PG forum so I shall stop. ;)

Aaaaanyway… Yes, you have quite a good point there about gender roles. But still, it's put-on behaviour and it's not endering. Like an actor that does their performance with the public: Ali G, or Dame Edna Everidge. They're anoying. Ah, that's Camp for you.

I think there are some qualities that would persist more then others but yeah, they're always changing. To sort of address Kyupol's post as well, I think there's a difference between traditionally perceived gender roles and actual gender roles. Passivity may be viewed as a more feminine trait but at the same time, we wouldn't find it “unfeminine” of a woman to be dynamic or bubbly.

I'm curious about how the idea expressed in the article/blog post fits into homophobia and lesbians. If one is to suggest that homophobia is based upon hating excessive passivity and femininity, and turning men into women, then that seems to suggest that homophobia has a misogynistic streak to it. If that's the case, then wouldn't that mean homophobia should especially apply to lesbians?

But two women having sex? That's pretty much a staple in a lot of heterosexual porn. The term “dyke” seems to be reserved more for lesbians who are noticably masculine.

Anyhow, back to cover letter writing. ._.
  
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:24AM
KomradeDave at 3:55PM, Jan. 29, 2007
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I think there's merit to the percieved gender role idea here. I've heard some of my gay friends refer to effeminate homosexuals as “fags” and “Aunt Toms” with the explaination that gay men are attracted to men, and not flamboyant parodies perpetration by the “straight media.” It would seem to fit with the lesbian question posed by Kitty as well because effeminate lesbians are still considered hot by many, while a lot of people are uncomfortable with the more masculine lesbians (who are also a stereotype often portrayed in the media).
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last edited on July 14, 2011 1:20PM
ccs1989 at 5:55PM, Jan. 30, 2007
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kyupol
I think part of homophobia comes from how homosexuality challenges traditionally perceived gender roles.

Any attempt to screw up “traditional” gender roles will result in a collapse of society. The society will not collapse if its members realize the error of their ways and revert back to tradition.


That's the biggest load of shit I've ever heard. For one, traditional gender roles aren't instilled on one from birth. True, the levels of estrogen or testosterone do affect people, but the traditional roles of society are fed to people through media, and through the ideas of parents who are shaped by the views of society.

If gender roles had to stay the same or else cause the collapse of society, men would still be the only one's working, and women would be in the kitchen making dinner.

Tradition is just a part of culture. Humans respond to culture more than they respond to instincts, which is what seperates humans from many other species. But culture can change. Traditions are destroyed all the time.

So stop thinking that breaking traditional gender roles will bring about the end of the world. That's childish.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:38AM
Phantom Penguin at 7:20PM, Jan. 30, 2007
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Completely on the side here but…what's up with calling women “pussy”? I don't refer to men as “cocks.” And everytime someone uses “pussy” to refer to women, I get this image in my head of some guy talking to my crotch. Maybe there's some confusion but for your information, my crotch isn't going to answer back.
That's funny, I never call anyone a “pussy” even in a pejeoritive sense, but I do call some people “cocks”, only in a pejoritive sense though. lol! But talking to a crotch… That's a hillarious image, and somehow I think it'd be quite fun. :)

Aaaaanyway… Yes, you have quite a good point there about gender roles. But still, it's put-on behaviour and it's not endering. Like an actor that does their performance with the public: Ali G, or Dame Edna Everidge. They're anoying. Ah, that's Camp for you.

I've seen many a person refered to as a pussy. Not women, but guys i was around.

But to Black_Kitty:
Most men say that because thats all they want from said female. Its sad but true. I've heard something like the above word used plenty of times.

…but you have to think of who i work with…
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:42PM
Phantom Penguin at 7:23PM, Jan. 30, 2007
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kyupol
I think part of homophobia comes from how homosexuality challenges traditionally perceived gender roles.


Traditional gender roles will always persist even 1000 years from now… as long as human civilization is intact.

Any attempt to screw up “traditional” gender roles will result in a collapse of society. The society will not collapse if its members realize the error of their ways and revert back to tradition.

Ever heard of the term “New Silent” generation? The term refers to people born year 2000 onwards. They are expected to imitate the attitudes of people in the 1920s… yep. like granny and gramps. :)

How is this a fact at all? The current generation as detroyed plenty of old traditional things our parents and their parents did. Yet we still seem to be standing.

Like me. I was born into a christian (very tradional christian) family. And i myself are a Muslim. Society hasn't collapsed because of my choice.

Women haven't traditionally filled combat jobs in the US army. But they do now. Is society as we know it being thrown to the wind?

Yeah. Didn't think so.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:42PM
kyupol at 6:20AM, Jan. 31, 2007
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How is this a fact at all? The current generation as detroyed plenty of old traditional things our parents and their parents did. Yet we still seem to be standing



And as I see it though, American society is declining because of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer. It is hard to exist on a single income these days. If you're a single income, you have to make at least double the minimum wage to get by decently.

The many other things… that have smashed tradition… are causing the American Empire to decline. At the rate its going, 50 years from now, America will either explode in a 2nd civil war or become a 3rd world country.

That unless… the new generation will change and revert back to the traditions of their grandparents. I've seen some of the change now. Like… some ladies refuse to be associated with feminism and hating the movement. And… guys reverting back and rationalizing macho-ism instead of metrosexual-ism, pussy-ism, and mangina-ism.


History seems to fix itself. :)

Women haven't traditionally filled combat jobs in the US army

But that is like a minority of a minority of women. Its the women who can last the brutal training done by the military. Usually the GI-Jane types who have amazon bodies and arent the prettiest. Like cmon. Why will a model do brutal military training? Its only gonna make her muscles bigger… and women dont want that. They're more concerned of looks.

Of US casualties in iraq, why are the men casualties at least 90% more than female casualties? No amount of PCness and affirmative action is gonna equalize female to male ratios in the military as well as “hard” fields like physics, math, sciences, skilled trades, and trucking. Same thing other way around. Minority of a minority of men will enter women fields like office secretary and kindergarten teacher. Even if you decide to pay them more… they simply wont want it.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 1:25PM
Aurora Moon at 10:35AM, Jan. 31, 2007
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kyupol
That unless… the new generation will change and revert back to the traditions of their grandparents. I've seen some of the change now. Like… some ladies refuse to be associated with feminism and hating the movement. And… guys reverting back and rationalizing macho-ism instead of metrosexual-ism, pussy-ism, and mangina-ism.

that can easily be explained–

1) first of all, feminism isn't what it used to be. it now slits up into two branches– the Nazi Feminists and the regular Feminists who are actually more for equal rights, even making men have the same rights as women. the regular feminists are the ones who aren't so bad… as they will rally for equal rights, for EVERYONE, even the men.those are the ones who stick to the true princle of what it means to be an feminist. I am one of those feminists.

But the Nazi Feminists are the ones who gave the whole organizations an awful name, and hence why more and more females refuse to be associated with that sort of thing. As seeing the Nazi Feminists are the psycho women who thinks that all men are evil, that they should have less rights than women do. And on top of it those Nazi Feminists are even verbally attacking women who actually choose to work at home whenever it be as an mother or something else, as well as the women who took on the traditional jobs of women… those Nazi Feminists are claiming that those women are “brainwashed”, don't know any better and therefore should be treated like shit….which of course only hurts the creditability of the name “Feminist” in general.
so you see, it has nothing to do with reverting back to “old traditions” for the women… it's got to do with not wanting to look like an pyscho man-hater.

2) I think the reason why men are reverting to the whole “Macho” bit is because of Gay rights and other issues relating to sexuality being an super hot topic right now… so as an result it's right in the people minds and they'll tend to assume more often about an person than they would normally.
For instance, in my family the females have a tendecy to look younger than we really do… which leads to a lot of werid situations. Once I was shopping with my mother, and it was at the time that my brother was getting married… so we were shopping for wedding related things together. Anyway we get up to the checkout, and this clerk looks at us both… goes: “So.. you two getting married or something?” snice north Dakota was actually conidsering legalizing gay marriage at the time… not really sure they were gonna do it though.
My mom stared at the clerk, and goes: “I'm her mother.” you should had seen the clerk's face then. That clerk didn't even know us, and we didn't even give any indication of even acting like an couple… sure, we were shopping for wedding items but that could had meant million of things and right away he assumes that we're both lesbains.
So with people assumsing a lot about people they don't even know, is it any wonder why a lot of straight men feel like they have to act the sterotype of what makes a “real man”, so that they don't have to be called or assumed to be gay all the time when they're not.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:09AM
Black_Kitty at 12:38PM, Jan. 31, 2007
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kyupol
And as I see it though, American society is declining because of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer. It is hard to exist on a single income these days. If you're a single income, you have to make at least double the minimum wage to get by decently.

The many other things… that have smashed tradition… are causing the American Empire to decline. At the rate its going, 50 years from now, America will either explode in a 2nd civil war or become a 3rd world country.

That unless… the new generation will change and revert back to the traditions of their grandparents. I've seen some of the change now. Like… some ladies refuse to be associated with feminism and hating the movement. And… guys reverting back and rationalizing macho-ism instead of metrosexual-ism, pussy-ism, and mangina-ism.


History seems to fix itself. :)

You're not quite making a lot of sense here. On one hand, you acknowledge that present day conditions requires people to reevaluate gender roles. A two income household is becoming the norm. But on the other hand, you talk about reverting back to the traditions of previous generations. A period of time when one income households were doable.

I'm not even sure how your ideas are clicking together the more I think about it. By association, you are suggesting that rejecting traditional values are causing American society to decline. Then you suggested the economic gaps in American as an example of this decline. But then you suggested that in present day society, a household would have to bring in two incomes in order to maintain a comfortable standard of living (or one large income.) But having two incomes mean a woman will have to work and bring in that income. Which goes against traditional values. Which contributes to decline in society one of which, at your suggestion, is the economic gaps. Which leads us to right back where we started because you can't have your cake and eat it too.

[Edit: Just to be clear since I know I tend to do a lot of mind-jumping so sometimes I can be a bit unclear…

You cannot have the benefits that comes out of “modern” gender roles but at the same time stick to “traditional” gender roles too. So you can't expect women everywhere to be a stay-at-home mom but at the same time hold a career and bring home a second income. And people seem to forget that, like all complicated issues in life, traditional gender roles cut both ways.]

Here's another food for thought: if reverting back to traditions is what's going to save society, what about societies that were traditionally martriarchal in nature?

But that is like a minority of a minority of women. Its the women who can last the brutal training done by the military. Usually the GI-Jane types who have amazon bodies and arent the prettiest. Like cmon. Why will a model do brutal military training? Its only gonna make her muscles bigger… and women dont want that. They're more concerned of looks.

Because it's a fulfilling job? Because they want to serve their country? Because there are government benefits? Because they want a job in the military? Because they want to?

It's downright rude and borderline ignorant to even suggest that pretty girls wouldn't serve in the military because the only thing women care about is how they look.

Of US casualties in iraq, why are the men casualties at least 90% more than female casualties? No amount of PCness and affirmative action is gonna equalize female to male ratios in the military as well as “hard” fields like physics, math, sciences, skilled trades, and trucking. Same thing other way around. Minority of a minority of men will enter women fields like office secretary and kindergarten teacher. Even if you decide to pay them more… they simply wont want it.

Did you know that there are now more women entering universities? And that they're finding that literacy for boys is going down? Are you going to tell me then that boys and men just aren't cut out for reading, writing, and going to school?
  
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:24AM
ccs1989 at 2:03PM, Jan. 31, 2007
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Kyupol, did you even read my original post? Anyway your historical references are shaky at best. You're looking back into American history, which has been around for around 200 years. Looking back a little further, like one million years, shows us that gender roles have changed immensely in that time. During hunter-gatherer time periods men and women were basically equal. Agriculture led to settlement and the need for women to have a fixed position in the home. Various societies that arose in the past had all kinds of varying degrees of gender roles. True, men usually seem to dominate over women, but I don't see how you can say that equality between the sexes is a bad thing.

Also your “It's impossible to support a family now on a single income” point falls flat too. That's mostly because of inflation in the housing market and the cost of raising kids these days with all the modern conveniences. It doesn't have to do with women getting more into the workforce.

Lastly on the military point, the reason more men join up is because it's considered more acceptable by society, and boys are taught from an early age that it's great to be a soldier and to fight, while girls are presented with images of fairy princesses and plastic heating ovens to prepare food, etc. It's all media imagery and social acceptability. Culture over instincts. But society can be changed, and those norms along with it.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:38AM
kyupol at 2:30PM, Jan. 31, 2007
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but I don't see how you can say that equality between the sexes is a bad thing.

I never said its a bad thing. I only said that no amount of affirmative action and PCness will make it truly equal and harmonious. I said that nature takes care of itself.

You can give women all the scholarships and grants… you can discriminate them because of their gender… as in… treat them like superior citizens and men as 2nd class citizens. But that wont work either.

Also your “It's impossible to support a family now on a single income” point falls flat too. That's mostly because of inflation in the housing market and the cost of raising kids these days with all the modern conveniences. It doesn't have to do with women getting more into the workforce.

I never said anything about women getting into the workforce contributing to low wages.

There are other factors too like greed of politicians and the elite. As well as people who are willing to work for dirt low wages. Its a chain reaction. People wanna work for dirt low wages because of desparation.

The thing that affects standard of living are SKILLS and QUANTITY. More workers with less skills = lower wages. Limit the supply of workers, get higher wages. Just like what unions are doing. Basic economics, man… supply and demand.

It's downright rude and borderline ignorant to even suggest that pretty girls wouldn't serve in the military because the only thing women care about is how they look

Truth. hurts. Doesnt it?

Ok… to be fair, pretty boys too dont wanna serve in the military. They dont wanna get their pretty face punched. Military training is fucking brutal.

Have you ever been forced to do tons of pushups even if you're getting dizzy and hands shaking and about to collapse? If you collapse, a rifle will come down on your back… it might hit your head if youre not lucky.
Have you ever been made to exchange underwear with your fellow cadet and made to run around the field in your underwear? Have you ever tried… 20 of you spitting in a bottle… then all of you will have to drink that shit. Have you ever been chased around the field with officers chasing after you then hitting you with their military belts? Have you ever been backed into the wall and punched and kicked repeatedly in the abdomen… to make you “tough”. Have you ever tried running in the field with a rifle… and when the officer screams a command, you HAVE TO drop on the floor and crawl on your belly. And another command, you HAVE TO get back up in 1 second and continue running. You are gonna start smelling like shit and sweat after. Especially in the rainy mud.

Have you ever been forced starved for 12 fucking hours while everything in the previous paragraph is being done?

Majority of people QUIT THAT SHIT after a few days. And the toughest people are not the prettiest. Men AND Women.


Did you know that there are now more women entering universities? And that they're finding that literacy for boys is going down? Are you going to tell me then that boys and men just aren't cut out for reading, writing, and going to school?

From personal experience:
I hate university. If I express my hatred for that cursed institution in its entirety, I might be considered “hatespeech”. Yeah I've read tons of articles from different university papers… and my blood only boiled at that crap written there. And I also did go to a univ… but I just dropped out due to disillusionment. So I'm like… wtf. I dont belong there. Maybe other guys have the same mindset as I do…

Or maybe… guys are smart enough to figure out that the high paying jobs are the skilled trades and trucking. And going into university will only make em end up in walmart or some cheap office. Unless you're a doctor or engineer of course. And not everyone has the IQ to become a doctor and spend 6 years in school while studying a million names of a million parts of the human body. Cmon. Its easier to sling tools and do a few math than study a million books. But its more dangerous physically… lol :)
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last edited on July 14, 2011 1:25PM
Black_Kitty at 3:29PM, Jan. 31, 2007
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kyupol
Truth. hurts. Doesnt it?

Ignorance hurts.

Ok… to be fair, pretty boys too dont wanna serve in the military. They dont wanna get their pretty face punched. Military training is fucking brutal.

A lot of things in life are “fucking brutal.” You make a lot of assumptions and you know what they say when people assume: you make an ass out of “u” and “me.”

Tell me something Kyupol, do you have experience in the military? Do you get chased around wearing only your underwear by military officers while being whipped by belts after being starved for 12 hours with nothing but the spit of your comrades substaining you? Do you experience beatings as part of your daily military training? Have you talked to people who have personally gone through this? If so, are you sure those people are in the military in North America?

Majority of people QUIT THAT SHIT after a few days. And the toughest people are not the prettiest. Men AND Women.

You seem to be mistaken on what really ticks me off about your previous statement. I do not doubt that training in the military is tough. I don't doubt that it's not for everyone either. What really ticks me off is the misogynistic undertones that comes out of a guy who refers to women as “pussy.” Oh no, attractive women would never sign up for the military! They'll get muscles and no women would want that! Only unattractive women would be in the military! Like come on guys. We all know only ugly women with muscles bulging everywhere are in the military! Attractive women couldn't possibly be concerned about other things in life.

Tacking on “oh and pretty boys too” does not suddenly make that statement okay. I'm not asking you to suggest that EVERYONE in the military is unattractive or does not care about their looks.

I hate university. If I express my hatred for that cursed institution in its entirety, I might be considered “hatespeech”. Yeah I've read tons of articles from different university papers… and my blood only boiled at that crap written there. And I also did go to a univ… but I just dropped out due to disillusionment. So I'm like… wtf. I dont belong there. Maybe other guys have the same mindset as I do…

Talking about how you hate university does not constitute hate speech. Look, I hate onions and I said it too in a public forum. That's not hate speech though. I will not be charged by the onion police for promoting the hatred of onions.

Or maybe… guys are smart enough to figure out that the high paying jobs are the skilled trades and trucking. And going into university will only make em end up in walmart or some cheap office. Unless you're a doctor or engineer of course. And not everyone has the IQ to become a doctor and spend 6 years in school while studying a million names of a million parts of the human body. Cmon. Its easier to sling tools and do a few math than study a million books. But its more dangerous physically… lol :)

You and I are going to disagree on this because I'm a student teacher and anyone in the education field usually have a strong belief in education. If your priority is an easier job with higher pay, then we are definitely not going to agree. Nobody goes into teaching if all they want is an easy job with a lot of money.

What I will say though is that there are some things in life that requires a post secondary education and having good literacy skills is needed even if you're in a skilled trade. There is a great difference between “I hate university! I rather get into a skilled trade because that's what I want!” and “I can't get into university.” The former made a decision based on the choices presented to them. The latter didn't have a choice to begin with.
  
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:24AM
kyupol at 4:09PM, Jan. 31, 2007
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You goin ad hominem now, BK?

Tell me something Kyupol, do you have experience in the military?

Cadet Officer. 2nd LT Citizens army training, Philippines, 1999. I was 16 years old. Part of compulsory military training. I opted for the more difficult training because I wanted to be tough and I had alot of enemies in school. The toughness I gained from training helped me at least survive and hold my ground against stronger bigger opponents. And oh… I DID NOT win every single fight because if I say that for sure I'd be accused of keyboard warriorism and bullshitism. :)

And thinking back on my old training days helps me to be inspired and to think tough in situations where I'd normally cry and breakdown.



…misogynistic undertones …

Misogynistic? For the record, I have woman friends. Not only that… I am also a compliant emotional tampoon (aka pseudo-psychiatrist) to them. Many women told me stories of badboy BF as well as other problems… and I sit there and listen and they like it.

But I am only against having relationships with women because of bad experiences in the past… and yeah I'm through with relationships with women. Friendship is where I draw the line. And yeah its fun looking at the expressions on their faces when I turn down sex or relationships. Reminds me of how I looked like when it was done to me. Its pretty nostalgic. :)

Again I repeat… for the sake of the smaller-brained life forms: I have woman friends. I dont hate women




I hope that answers your inquiries.

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last edited on July 14, 2011 1:25PM
Black_Kitty at 4:39PM, Jan. 31, 2007
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kyupol
You goin ad hominem now, BK?

Point out where I'm attacking you as a person in order to draw away from the argument at hand.

Cadet Officer. 2nd LT Citizens army training, Philippines, 1999. I was 16 years old. Part of compulsory military training. I opted for the more difficult training because I wanted to be tough and I had alot of enemies in school. The toughness I gained from training helped me at least survive and hold my ground against stronger bigger opponents. And oh… I DID NOT win every single fight because if I say that for sure I'd be accused of keyboard warriorism and bullshitism. :)

And thinking back on my old training days helps me to be inspired and to think tough in situations where I'd normally cry and breakdown.

Why are you quoting your experience in the Philippines when mostly everyone else (including yourself) have been talking about American society and the US military?

And are you telling me that during your training as a cadet in the Philippines, you were forced to run in your underwear while being chased by officers with belts and had nothing to eat or drink (except for the pooled saliva of others) for 12 hours?

Because I don't think they even do that in the US military.

Misogynistic? For the record, I have woman friends. Not only that… I am also a compliant emotional tampoon (aka pseudo-psychiatrist) to them. Many women told me stories of badboy BF as well as other problems… and I sit there and listen and they like it.

You having women friends does not mean it's impossible for you to have misogynistic undertones in what you say. While I'm at it, a women can also be misogynistic and a man can be a feminist. These aren't gender bound ideas.
  
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:24AM
Phantom Penguin at 5:12PM, Jan. 31, 2007
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kyupol
It's downright rude and borderline ignorant to even suggest that pretty girls wouldn't serve in the military because the only thing women care about is how they look

Truth. hurts. Doesnt it?

Ok… to be fair, pretty boys too dont wanna serve in the military. They dont wanna get their pretty face punched. Military training is fucking brutal.

Have you ever been forced to do tons of pushups even if you're getting dizzy and hands shaking and about to collapse? If you collapse, a rifle will come down on your back… it might hit your head if youre not lucky.
Have you ever been made to exchange underwear with your fellow cadet and made to run around the field in your underwear? Have you ever tried… 20 of you spitting in a bottle… then all of you will have to drink that shit. Have you ever been chased around the field with officers chasing after you then hitting you with their military belts? Have you ever been backed into the wall and punched and kicked repeatedly in the abdomen… to make you “tough”. Have you ever tried running in the field with a rifle… and when the officer screams a command, you HAVE TO drop on the floor and crawl on your belly. And another command, you HAVE TO get back up in 1 second and continue running. You are gonna start smelling like shit and sweat after. Especially in the rainy mud.

Have you ever been forced starved for 12 fucking hours while everything in the previous paragraph is being done?

Majority of people QUIT THAT SHIT after a few days. And the toughest people are not the prettiest. Men AND Women.




Ok. Wow. none of that crap happens. Its not legal. Its immoral and it doesnt happen. Maybe 35 years ago. But not now.

While basic training is tough everything after is pretty easy. With the exception of being deployed to a combat zone.

And i will tell you none of that shit happens in Officer Canidate School (OCS) because i've seen them train.

I don't know who told you that shit.

Push ups are always around, but as punishment. They can't hit you anymore (or havn't been able to in many years) so they make you do push ups. Its the lesser of two evils.
Oh, and their are plenty of pretty, and damn good looking women in the military.

Sorry to get off topic, but i had to say something.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:42PM
kyupol at 5:28PM, Jan. 31, 2007
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You having women friends does not mean it's impossible for you to have misogynistic undertones in what you say

Ok Ok… whats so mysoginistic about “pussy”?

To think of it, its something to be even proud of… because you know that as a woman, your pussy has more value than a man's dick. Why? If it had no value, would men be saying it as a reference for sex? No.

Again. Economics. Supply and demand. Men give away their dick too easily. If every man behaved like the few PUAs (Pick Up Artists… the players and seducers) and MRAs (Men Rights Activists… the opposite of feminism) out there, dick wont be so cheap these days.


If dick had actually any value these days… that I'd see women talking about dick the same way guys talk about pussy, I'd be damn proud of myself.


Ok. Wow. none of that crap happens. Its not legal. Its immoral and it doesnt happen. Maybe 35 years ago. But not now.

Ok… I just assumed that the same thing is done in the USA since it was the USA who trained our first batch of soldiers.



And btw, this topic has gone waaayyyy offff… lol
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last edited on July 14, 2011 1:25PM
Black_Kitty at 5:51PM, Jan. 31, 2007
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kyupol
Ok Ok… whats so mysoginistic about “pussy”?

To think of it, its something to be even proud of… because you know that as a woman, your pussy has more value than a man's dick. Why? If it had no value, would men be saying it as a reference for sex? No.

Because I'm not a body part. Are you talking to me or are you talking to my vagina? Are you thinking of me as a person or me as a possible vagina for you to have sex with? Is my identity a vagina now?

Would you ever refer to your loved ones with that term? Why not?

The other interesting thing about the word is that in another context, it's often used as an insult. If you called your male friend a “pussy,” I'm pretty sure they're not going to wonder if you've just propositioned to them.

Maybe it's just me but I would never refer to my male friends by their body parts. Sure I call my really close friends names and he calls me names too. Neither of us really mean it and that's just one of those quirky things in friendship. But neither of us would ever address the other using obscene terms for body parts and expect the other person to feel it's great.

Edit: Thinking about it, it could be argued that referring to females using obscene names isn't exactly mysoginistic…but I think it's a huge stretch to say it's something all girls should be proud of. Quite frankly, I don't care how valuable other people think my vagina is. It's not as if I'm going to sell it. :P

And btw, this topic has gone waaayyyy offff… lol

Indeed. :S
  
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:24AM
Kristen Gudsnuk at 12:50PM, Feb. 1, 2007
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wh-whoa… this discussion has gotten kinda crazy… but!
I feel the need to point out a few things:
when BK said, “when have you been in the military” it was ad hominem, but it was “ad hominem circumstancial” in which you implicate the person's circumstances as being contradictory to his/her point.

And sorry kyupol, no matter how you spin things, you were being grossly sexist when you said:
kyupol
when I was a needy wuss, pussy runs away from me. When I became “stronger”, pussy sometimes got handed to me on a platter. But since I'm *almost* too fucking jaded, I've refused pussy often. lol I'm like… FUCK YOU WHEN ONCE UPON A TIME I WAS BEGGING FOR PUSSY NONE WAS GIVEN TO ME! NOW I DONT NEED THAT, YOU'RE GIVIN IT TO ME?!? FUCK YOU!!!

how is that NOT dehumanizing? bleggh!!
And as far as women in the military, I have a friend who is *very* cute and is not manly at all, who joined the military and is *still* in the military. She joined because of patriotic reasons and I'm sure she wasn't like, “aww man, now I'm gonna have muscles! waah!” and girls want to be toned, too, btw.
Oh, AND, some girls LIKE sensitive men! me for instance! I like my men to be weepy and poetic! so there!

In regards to the original debate:
I think there are a LOT of reasons for people to be homophobic and I think that the article picks up on quite a few. In domestic situations (like finding out a son is gay) a lot of the discord comes from having expectations of having grandkids (or nieces/nephews/cousins/whatever) dashed. Or, if a gay couple adopts, the gay ppl's parents might be ashamed to call the adoptive kids their grandkids, because then they would be accepting the homosexual relationship into their family.
Most of homophobia, I think, stems from being ashamed of being implicated with homosexuals. Straight men may want to distance themselves from gays so that they appear more straight… and may be hateful towards gays for the same reason.
I don't know… it's something I've thought of a lot…
I know some people who think it's like a brain malfunctioning…
It's mostly society though. It's weird. when I was little it was ingrained in me, “gays are LAME!!!” and so before I even knew what on earth being gay meant (like 4th grade or so) I called someone “faggot”… and then later I found out what it meant and was very confused. Then, as I grew up, I became kind of wary of gays, but I thought it was kind of cute in a Romeo and Juliet kinda way… star-crossed lovers… (now I'm a shounen-ai fangirl)
so anyway, society has the bad habit of enforcing hatred and stereotypes… unfortunately right now it's “in” to hate gays… (curses!)
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:22PM
ccs1989 at 12:56PM, Feb. 1, 2007
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I think that what Kyupol is missing here is that he's only using his own experiences to justify why things will always go back to men being dominant and women having fixed roles such as in the kitchen and so on. You've been taught from such an early age to believe that there are fixed gender roles that it's impossible for you to realize that alternatives exist. Believe me, they do. The world is starting to realize that now and is changing. Maybe not in your part of the world, but in most first world countries equality is taking over.

It's all about changing the culture, man. Destroying the ignorance that makes people think that women and men will never be truley equal. You've gotta realize that if you change the culture it's not easy to change it back, and things will get better from there. Your original statement that destroying tradition will cause chaos is just foolish. Change will happen, gradually over time, and all that will happen is that society will slowly adjust to this new equality.
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“If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.”
-Henry David Thoreau, Walden
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:38AM
ozoneocean at 7:14PM, Feb. 1, 2007
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Cool it guys. Try not to get too worked up… Kuypol will always go back to the weak women, strong men argument, that's his default setting and nothing will change it. You just have to learn to love him as he is ^_^

Please don't stray too far from the topic.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:25PM
Aurora Moon at 8:10PM, Feb. 1, 2007
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actually to be honest, I kinda think it's still on topic.

after all, we're discussing here is if the hatred of gays actually comes from having misconceptions of gay men basically being a weird pareell to women in a way where they supposedly take on the role of women and seen to be taking a “lesser role”…. the “lesser role” of women. Now why would the “female role” be seen as a “lesser” role?

even today, women are still seen as the “Weaker” of the sexes in huge parts of the world… on so many different levels.

even in America where being an woman aren't seen as such a HUGE weakness, there's still a majority of people who thinks that women need protection of males when they go out at late night to party, etc or if they ever got robbed in the middle of the night. or that women need to be defended from males harassing them in public.
that means that on an subconscious level, whenever people want to admit it or not, that they feel that women cannot take care of themselves or is able to defend themselves due to being “too weak.”
hell, when I first moved out of my parents' house and choose to return to live in the city Bismarck, my mother expressed all sorts of concerns like what if some guy breaks in, etc…she was SO worried that I would be SO easy to be taken advantage of. despite the fact that I'm practically an expert in the marital arts and would easily kill a guy for mishandling me. one time I almost broke an strong, buff man's arm with very little effort… and that was because he was so condescending and sexist toward me, that I lost my temper toward him. Consider the fact that I'm not even a buff, butch woman at all…I'm an short, slender woman. yet I was able to kick some huge muscular guy's ass easily…really humiliating to him.
My mother knows of that.. in fact she was there as an witness. yet she was STILL worried for my safety living alone. Why? because on an subconscious level, she was raised up thinking that women were still weak in some way if they happen to live alone, or is alone with men that aren't her personal protectors… which is understandable, considering she grew up during the 60's… a time when women's roles in the workforce and stuff were still being questioned.

So if men were related to women, then that would implicate that others might think of the men as “weak” in the same way women supposedly are… thus that uneasy feeling/or feeling of hatred toward gay men, because the straight men imagine them to be unnaturally morphing into women with dicks.. not realizing that they are STILL MEN, no matter what… it doesn't change who they are. they're just gay.

so yes, I think the topic of traditional roles and the image of that is relevant to the topic of the hatred of gay men.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:09AM
kyupol at 9:20PM, Feb. 1, 2007
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when I was a needy wuss, pussy runs away from me. When I became “stronger”, pussy sometimes got handed to me on a platter. But since I'm *almost* too fucking jaded, I've refused pussy often. lol I'm like… FUCK YOU WHEN ONCE UPON A TIME I WAS BEGGING FOR PUSSY NONE WAS GIVEN TO ME! NOW I DONT NEED THAT, YOU'RE GIVIN IT TO ME?!? FUCK YOU!!!

All this long barrage of posts for this line of mine?

Wow.

Ok. Sorry. Its my fault because I'm a man. And yes. I should not be angry with these experiences. I should just bow my head and tuck my tail between my legs. Arf! arf! bowowowowowowow!!! Good doggie!!! Why angry? touched a little nerve there? Figured out the secret key to human behavior? I'm not an idiot that will forever be a mindless drone worker. I'm not an idiot that will believe in stupid propaganda. I got a pretty high IQ (Hint: above 130) and I eventually figured that out.

And yes. I should also accept “change”.



Its not a question of acceptance of change or not. Its not a question of about me saying “yes or no”. Its about rebuilding human nature from the ground, up.

Which system of government has been successful in rebuilding human nature from ground up?

Humanity's traditional programming will always prevail. That is a fact.


Anyway, if you are still hopeful that humanity will change… that traditional gender roles will change (completely… not partially), so be it. Maybe one day history will prove one of us WRONG.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 1:25PM
Kristen Gudsnuk at 9:49PM, Feb. 1, 2007
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well, good job on the high IQ… I know you're saying that as a way to defend your credibility, but… that's kind of cheap, you know? sorry. but don't worry! no one has called you stupid or anything, and it's obvious you're intelligent, so you don't have to rely on silly numbers to prove yourself.
And even if you had an IQ of a gazillion (teehee), it wouldn't make your statement that got a few DDers upset any less chauvenistic and cutting.

kyupol
Anyway, if you are still hopeful that humanity will change… that traditional gender roles will change (completely… not partially), so be it. Maybe one day history will prove one of us WRONG.

That seems to be the flaw in your argument, it's so *extreme*! no one said gender roles would change completely… just that with the advancement of society, gender roles morph as well. You can't assume something is so static, or that gender roles are entirely nature-rooted. Things are a little subtler than that.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:22PM
kyupol at 9:54PM, Feb. 1, 2007
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Another point to help support my argument about women being attracted to the strong… as well as gender roles:


1) Have you ever read any of those “bishoujo” comics? It usually has one of those unusually pretty men who are not wussies. They are NOT weak. They are heroic, badass, dont take shit from anyone. Sometimes, they totally ignore the girl or are homosexual or wants another girl or for some magical reason… because he's an alien or whatever he cannot date the girl or some sort of complication gets in the way making an obstacle for him and the main character girl (who usually has long hair and is 16 year old for some reason) to not be together. These “bishies” arent BITCHES.

Why do tons of girls dig these comics and “fall in love” with the main guy?


2) In contrast, there is this “harem” manga where a dorky ass wussy guy gets all the girls. Its always… always made into “comedy” either its dude getting his ass kicked for the slimmest reasons by the main char girl. And in the forums dedicated to such anime, I havent seen one of the fangirls comment on Keichi Morisato being “sexy” or Kotarro (or whatever that love hina guy's name is… I stopped watching that show because after episode 4 it totally sux shit) being “hot”.



3) Why do women choose jobs that are traditionally women. Like nursing, office secretary, teacher, etc… And why do they shun traditionally “man” jobs. I did this experiment before. I tried to convince a few female friends of mine to enter this school that offers FREE TRAINING or DISCOUNTS to women interested in learning to be an electrician… but charges $5k for guys. But no. Nobody wants that. So it seems that in spite that guys have to pay $5k to get into the program, guys still do it. Same thing I did to guy friends… convince them to be a babysitter or any woman job and nobody likes it. Its about one's personal preferences. Its not about me being so evil and patriarchal that I want women to be in the kitchen. lol no. Equal opportunity should be given to everyone. It is wrong to force women to be in the kitchen… as well as it is wrong to force them against their will to do “man” jobs in the name of “equality”.


4) *a bit of a plug comic here* In , Cedrick is a wuss. Start of he is “self-destructive” but not a wuss. tells the story of how Cedrick develops his current state of mind as seen in the prologue of the comic. And yep. I remember those review threads… I remember the reviewers who dissed and said Cedrick is a wussy and Claudita must be really patient to put up with this wuss, etc… etc… etc… All Cedrick does is feel sorry for himself… OMG This comic suxxor!!!



You see. The wuss gets naturally punished. Men and women continue to choose to live in their own “traditional” roles.
NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:25PM

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