Debate and Discussion

What if Homophobia isn't really about hating gay men, it's about hating excessive passivity and femininity?
kyupol at 10:09PM, Feb. 1, 2007
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And even if you had an IQ of a gazillion (teehee), it wouldn't make your statement that got a few DDers upset any less chauvenistic and cutting.

So its chauvinistic to expose the map to the treasure? :D



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last edited on July 14, 2011 1:25PM
kyupol at 5:40AM, Feb. 2, 2007
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Aurora Moon
actually to be honest, I kinda think it's still on topic.

after all, we're discussing here is if the hatred of gays actually comes from having misconceptions of gay men basically being a weird pareell to women in a way where they supposedly take on the role of women and seen to be taking a “lesser role”…. the “lesser role” of women. Now why would the “female role” be seen as a “lesser” role?

even today, women are still seen as the “Weaker” of the sexes in huge parts of the world… on so many different levels.

even in America where being an woman aren't seen as such a HUGE weakness, there's still a majority of people who thinks that women need protection of males when they go out at late night to party, etc or if they ever got robbed in the middle of the night. or that women need to be defended from males harassing them in public.
that means that on an subconscious level, whenever people want to admit it or not, that they feel that women cannot take care of themselves or is able to defend themselves due to being “too weak.”
hell, when I first moved out of my parents' house and choose to return to live in the city Bismarck, my mother expressed all sorts of concerns like what if some guy breaks in, etc…she was SO worried that I would be SO easy to be taken advantage of. despite the fact that I'm practically an expert in the marital arts and would easily kill a guy for mishandling me. one time I almost broke an strong, buff man's arm with very little effort… and that was because he was so condescending and sexist toward me, that I lost my temper toward him. Consider the fact that I'm not even a buff, butch woman at all…I'm an short, slender woman. yet I was able to kick some huge muscular guy's ass easily…really humiliating to him.
My mother knows of that.. in fact she was there as an witness. yet she was STILL worried for my safety living alone. Why? because on an subconscious level, she was raised up thinking that women were still weak in some way if they happen to live alone, or is alone with men that aren't her personal protectors… which is understandable, considering she grew up during the 60's… a time when women's roles in the workforce and stuff were still being questioned.

So if men were related to women, then that would implicate that others might think of the men as “weak” in the same way women supposedly are… thus that uneasy feeling/or feeling of hatred toward gay men, because the straight men imagine them to be unnaturally morphing into women with dicks.. not realizing that they are STILL MEN, no matter what… it doesn't change who they are. they're just gay.

so yes, I think the topic of traditional roles and the image of that is relevant to the topic of the hatred of gay men.

Off Topic:
Could you enlighten me as to how you did it? Maybe I'd learn some new tricks in fighting bigger guys.

And btw, I still think she should be worried about your safety… not only her but YOU as well.

I'm 190 lbs, know how to fight decently, but I'm still afraid of going alone. Especially at night time in the bus when there are suspicious characters in the back… you know… loud mouth, “fuck” every other word, wearing baggy clothes, about at least 6 feet in height… And I always size em up and imagine a potential outcome in the event of them ganging up on me.

If I get lucky, I could send one or two of them to the hospital and hurt some of his friends. But there are other factors like:

1) weapons. Knives, guns, artificial weapons… no amount of martial arts training is gonna stop them.


2) Luck. Luck sometimes determines the winner of a fight. I sparred this blackbelt with 30 years experience once.. I hit him consecutively in the face. Right and left and it stunned him. Backed him in a corner and drilled a few knees into his body (it was covered up and my knees felt mostly elbows). We're not trying to kill each other so I let him go. But if that happened to him on the street, he'd probably be dead.

And when it worked against me in one of those “play fights” with buddies… A guy who never fought before was able to get a lucky punch into my mouth. I was stunned right there. And if it happened to me on the street, I would probably be dead.


And you know… Rickson Gracie admitted he is “afraid of everything”. Coming from a man who has won at least 100 fights, he's still afraid of that luck that might work against him.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 1:25PM
Aurora Moon at 7:11AM, Feb. 2, 2007
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you're right of course… it also got to do with factors.

The reason why I was able to beat his ass, I suppose, was the fact that he wasn't expecting me to do such a thing. After all, he was hitting on me, and slightly pressuring me to go home with him. An actual quote from him that caused me to lose my temper: “Come on, baby, just think about going home with me. You know you really dig me… you women are all the same, always having to feel like you should act so proper, but in the end always loves to be banged and treated like an slut…”
So I had that edge of surpise.

I just grabbed his arm, spun around just slightly once as I moved behind him so that his arm would be almost twisted in an un-natural postion, applied pressure behind one of his kneecaps with one of my feet which would force him down to the floor pretty quickly.
using that method, I was able to keep him pinned down because if I even pulled his arm slightly in the direction that it definely should not go, it would cause him to feel instense pain… due to his arm being twisted and painfully pushed to it's limits.
So as much as he tried to fight back against that, he couldn't… so he had to be in that position in an public setting while I cussed loudly at him. now that I look back at it, I wish I had been a little bit calm and just told him to respect women's wishes if they wanted to be left alone. or just called for the bartender to throw him out… there was so many things I would had done if I hadn't lost my temper. Ah well.

He proably thinks that I was just some pyscho man-hating woman, but then again I don't care. it's funny how it goes. I regert that situation a little bit how I lost my temper, but then again at the same time I don't care.

Yeah, weapons does make a difference… and there's certainly many too many factors nethier way to see how it could go both ways.

on one hand, I could easily disarm an large man with an weapon if I had the edge of surpise, knowing my terrority, etc over him.
on the other hand, if I was tired or just having woken up from an sleep he could certainly have that element of surpise over me..then I'm pretty much screwed.

But then at the same time I'm not so worried. After all, North Dakota is relatively safe, and Bismarck isn't as dangerous as say, New York. and I've taken cautions to safeguard my home against the event of a break-in. After all, I'm not certainly gonna make it easy for criminals out there to catch me off-guard and unaware.

Now to get this back on topic–so you say it right there.. it's not about who's the strongest or the weakest, really. it's all about luck, the elements of an situation that favors an invidinal over the other…
so therefore, it's not that women are actually weaker than men. in fact both are compete equals..both genders just has thier own differences that makes up for both strengths and weaknesses.
So why is reffering men to lady bits or even just women in gerenal such an insult if both genders are basically the same save for our body bits?
why is an gay man conidsered such a pussy… it's just stupid.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:09AM
kyupol at 8:24AM, Feb. 2, 2007
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I just grabbed his arm, spun around just slightly once as I moved behind him so that his arm would be almost twisted in an un-natural postion, applied pressure behind one of his kneecaps with one of my feet which would force him down to the floor pretty quickly.
using that method, I was able to keep him pinned down because if I even pulled his arm slightly in the direction that it definely should not go, it would cause him to feel instense pain… due to his arm being twisted and painfully pushed to it's limits.

I see. Element of surprise.

I can picture that move… I tried doing that in a sparring fight but it wont work against someone who is alert and moving around.

At that position its hard to escape if pinned properly. Though if done to me, I'd try the following:

- try to slip away… or move into a guard position.
- try to continuously push back and wiggle around… hopefully positions can change. And I'd try to keep neck down like a turtle so that you wont be able to follow up with a rear naked choke.
- try find the centre of gravity and force a roll over that would probably end up with you tryin to choke me out… Keep neck down while trying to get off the leg hooks, then try to get into a sidemount.

Theres no exact counter. Its all try try try. lol

why is an gay man conidsered such a pussy… it's just stupid.

Not all though. I saw this really big buffed army guy who looked scary. If you see him, you dont wanna mess with him. His size is intimidating. But fuck. He is a homo but not a pussy. lol
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last edited on July 14, 2011 1:25PM
Aurora Moon at 10:55AM, Feb. 2, 2007
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yeah, but there's many men in America who has this image of an gay men as ones that look effemine, wears bright colors, likes to wear super-tight short shorts and talks like this: “Ohh, you go girl! but that color is so totally wrong on you!”

so therefore they think that a lot of gay men has to be “pussies” or something.

you sound like you're a good fighter… can't say the same for that musclar jerk though.. I doubt he was even trained to fight well.. proably thinks he can get on by muscles alone in a fight.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:09AM
ozoneocean at 3:27PM, Feb. 2, 2007
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Kyupol you make a huge, massive, gigantic mistake in thinking that purely cultural differences are somehow deeper and more ingrained. This has nothing to do with the weight of history being against a change in gender roles, it's simply the weight of a culture. These things are easily changed: man is born totally without culture. What you are born with is a body that eventually develops a sexual identity at puberty and a brain that comprehends the world mostly through imitation and assimilation, and lastly, you have various senses through with you perceive your environment; That's all man, nothing else.

That's all your amazing genes provide you with! It's pretty significant nonetheless and you can do a hell of a lot with it, but I'm afraid it just doesn't come with its own culture and traditions, that would be nothing short of ludicrous. lol!

What we have are learned behaviours from those around us, our environment and most importantly: our community.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:25PM
Black_Kitty at 4:13PM, Feb. 2, 2007
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I'm going to ignore the first two points you made for the simple fact that you're using comic books to support your point. I'm going to especially ignore your comic book points because you brought up harem manga which caters to male fantasy about being surrounded by a bunch of attractive girls and having them all like him.

As a side note, I actually like Keiichi from Ah! My Goddess. He may be a bit shy but he's an intelligent and kind man. I know there are times when he gets pushed around a lot but I think for the most part, he's human. I dislike Belldandy though. At times I wonder if she has a personality.

kyupol
3) Why do women choose jobs that are traditionally women. Like nursing, office secretary, teacher, etc… And why do they shun traditionally “man” jobs. I did this experiment before. I tried to convince a few female friends of mine to enter this school that offers FREE TRAINING or DISCOUNTS to women interested in learning to be an electrician… but charges $5k for guys. But no. Nobody wants that. So it seems that in spite that guys have to pay $5k to get into the program, guys still do it. Same thing I did to guy friends… convince them to be a babysitter or any woman job and nobody likes it. Its about one's personal preferences. Its not about me being so evil and patriarchal that I want women to be in the kitchen. lol no. Equal opportunity should be given to everyone. It is wrong to force women to be in the kitchen… as well as it is wrong to force them against their will to do “man” jobs in the name of “equality”.

As someone who's in teacher's college, I would disagree. There are plenty of guys in the teacher's program and plenty of them take art. I know a few guys who only teach the arts and I've met girls whose other teachables are gym or science. And in order to claim a subject as your teachable, you have to have studied it in your undergraduate degree.

I've only had a total of 6-9 hours of sleep over the last couple of days so I'll be a bit blunt.

This is quite similar to that post you made about women in the military. You figure if you just tack on that part about “pretty boys” then you'll be okay. It cost you nothing to say that it's all about personal perference and opportunity because in your mind, women would never choose jobs beyond those you consider traditionally female. And if they do, you'll say what you wrote earlier about women in the military: they're a minority, they're ugly, or there's something negative about them and so they don't really count.

It would be similar to me telling you that if I won a Playstation 3, I'll give it to you for free. It may seem like I'm being generous on the surface but really, it doesn't cost me anything to say that. I know I'll never win a PS3 so therefore, I never have to make good on my promise. It's just me being insincere.

Quite frankly, I think the only thing your experiment shows is that your female friends don't want to be electricians and your male friends don't want to be babysitters.

Humanity's traditional programming will always prevail. That is a fact.

There was a period of time not too long ago when women do not even hold a job. If there are jobs that are, in your opinion, traditionally female and jobs that are traditionally male, then who held those traditional female jobs back in that time? If indeed there is a fixed traditional programming, then wouldn't that mean there are no such thing as traditional female jobs?
  
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:24AM
kyupol at 7:45AM, Feb. 4, 2007
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These things are easily changed: man is born totally without culture. What you are born with is a body that eventually develops a sexual identity at puberty and a brain that comprehends the world mostly through imitation and assimilation, and lastly, you have various senses through with you perceive your environment; That's all man, nothing else.

I agree.

Yes you can change em … But will that be a permanent change if somebody isnt gonna be happy with what they've learned? Once someone isnt happy with what they've learned, they will always go to some place that will make them happy and satisfied.

For instance, I was born into a hardcore religious family… had hardcore religious indoctrination as a child. Some of the things I learned are… Sex only during marriage. If you love a woman, you should marry her and take care of her, etc… and she will love you in return. God knows what is best for you. God will be the one to provide you with everything just have faith in God. And that goes for women. God has a plan on who you are gonna marry. just trust in God.

So there. loved a woman with all my heart… only to be abused. loved family very much… only to be abused. But when shit hit the fan and every foundation of what I learned… had crumbled to the dust… thats when I began to re-learn everything about life. In order to be more fulfilled. In order to reach a higher state of existence.

And guess what I re-learned that made me feel satisfied?

1) Women are attracted to strength. Not necessarily “badboy” strength but the alpha male. Women are attracted to men who are leaders. Doesnt matter if you are the gang leader or the CEO of a company. But what if that strength will fade? There will be weak points in me. As I am human. She will leave me (with half or more of my assets). Her love is proportional to the amount of strength I show. Thats it. If I become weak, I will lose her. Love is not unconditional.

2) Same point in number 1… can be applied to friends and family as well. Its not about unconditional love but showing strength. It is not about unconditional love but by people working for their own interests. Though I am NOT an alpha male physically… I'm not born with that shit… as I was a sickly skinny little kid who woulda fucking died without proper medical technology… I needed to work harder to gain physical strength. I needed to work harder to hold my own against more athletic naturally gifted fighters in the gym… and still lost pretty often…

But I can BE an alpha… in mind and spirit. Not for the purposes of attracting women but for the purpose of survival. Life is survival of the fittest.


3) University education will not guarantee you a high paying job. In fact, tradespeople, drivers, superintendents, garbage collectors, etc… have more chances of making more money… because the market IS oversaturated with university graduates… and will continue at some point because of the millions of high schoolers who have university as first choice and are willing to work their asses off in multiple PT jobs and get in thousands of dollars in debt. ONLY TO END UP IN A FUCKING CHEAPO OFFICE JOB OR FACTORY JOB OR FUCKING WALL MART (not wall street lol) OR MCDONALDS!!! This is just a conspiracy of the school system. Encourage the students… blind them with propaganda… and let them follow like herds of sheep. Cuz seriously. The hi paying university jobs are doctors (all variants of it including dentists), lawyers, engineers, and teachers. Shit like majoring in English or Art or History or Women's studies isnt gonna get you shit. Might as well go to college or a vocational school.


4) And going back to the topic… excessive passivity and femininity are things that will ALWAYS be hated. Why is emoism more hated than wiggerism? Emos dont go around acting so tough and arrogant! Emos just cut their wrists and cry… theyre not hurting anybody! Why is it that when I used to whine about my stupid life in the old DD forums when I was in my late teens… I got flamed alot and called a sissy?




Anyway, its been nice hearing your side of the coin… and again… if that is what makes you happy, complete, and satisfied with your life, so be it. I rest my case. :)
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last edited on July 14, 2011 1:25PM
ccs1989 at 12:36PM, Feb. 4, 2007
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God, you just KEEP bringing up points that have to do with culture. It's stupid. All of this stuff has been built up over time due to a bunch of factors. It has nothing to do with the way “humans are programmed”.

For example I was reading an article the other day about an African Island which is a matriarchal society, and women make a lot of the decisions and are dominant, instead of the men. That society has been going on like that for a while, and it hasn't collapsed.

Ozone is completely right. Our community decides a lot of who we are. People who are different are usually looked down upon and become “normal” due to social pressures. However it's unhealthy for them to try and act a certain way when they're not really like that.

The whole reason men are overcome by violence in this country are because it's become an almost socially acceptable way to prove one's “manhood”. Back 50 years ago women were never supposed to act agressive at all, and people assumed that was just against their nature. But these days there are more and more accounts of girls fighting. Does that mean something in our programming changed? No, it just means that the old views broke down.

Anyway that's all I'm going to say on this topic. If kyupol still can't accept that people aren't “programmed” to be a certain way then I think this is a lost cause.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:38AM
Black_Kitty at 10:12PM, Feb. 5, 2007
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I'm not even going to bother continuing the debate since I get the feeling my points will be ignored anyway. However, I just want to point out something here:

kyupol
Cuz seriously. The hi paying university jobs are doctors (all variants of it including dentists), lawyers, engineers, and teachers. Shit like majoring in English or Art or History or Women's studies isnt gonna get you shit. Might as well go to college or a vocational school.

Nobody becomes a teacher because of the pay. In fact, my own personal experiences have found that the only people who latch on to the concept of pay and summer vacations are people who are not teachers.

As for the rest of the post about university education, I'm just going to let Statistics Canada speak for itself:

Higher education: a gateway to higher earnings

The census showed clearly that the chances of making it to the top earnings levels are most directly associated with educational attainment, and particularly with a university degree.

In 2000, more than 60% of earners in the lowest earnings category (less than $20,000) had no more than a high school education. However, more than 60% of earners in the top category ($100,000 or more) had a university degree.

Among men who were working on a full-year, full-time basis in 2000, those without a university degree had average earnings of less than $50,000. In contrast, earnings for men with a university degree have been above this level in each census since 1980, and surpassed $70,000 on average for the first time in 2000. Their earnings rose 7.7% to almost $72,000.

University degree holders were the only group of men to earn significantly more than they did two decades earlier. Earnings for college graduates rose only 2.0% to $49,231. Those with a college diploma were making only $342 more on average than in 1980.

Annual earnings for those with less than a high school education declined 1.8% during the decade to $36,193 a year.

In contrast, women experienced increases in earnings across all educational levels. Changes were most notable for university-educated women who were the only women during the past two decades to have earnings higher than $40,000 on average.

Female university graduates who worked full-time for a full year earned $48,260 in 2000, up 9.3% from 1980. This was the largest increase in earnings recorded for all education groups for both genders. Earnings for women with less than a high school education rose 4.1% between 1980 and 2000 to $24,914.

Edit: Again, totally bias here but the oversatuation of university graduates does not spell the end for those who hold a university degree. If anything, it spells trouble for people who don't graduate from high school. It may also mean that the bar has been set higher now. A university degree alone is not going to cut it for some jobs anymore.
  
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:24AM

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