Debate and Discussion

What would happen if America were to disappear?
Lonnehart at 1:41AM, July 27, 2009
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I was reading a wikipedia article on so called “anti-Americanism” and got this idea in my head. Say America just left the world entirely. Maybe they managed to terraform Mars in secret and sent every citizen to that planet. And maybe they left because the eruption of Yellowstone National Park is imminent. Do you suppose the world would be happy to see America finally gone? Or would they simply focus their “anti-something” on another target?
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:39PM
ozoneocean at 3:21AM, July 27, 2009
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You're always going to have opposition to the most powerful and dominant force Lonnehart. It's irrelevant who that is- absolutely, completely and utterly.

It's a funny contradiction that even though the United States is currently the strongest power and most influential country, it doesn't really matter. You see, it would be the same situation if that country was India or China and it WAS the same situation when that country WAS France, Britain, Spain, Rome and so on.

———————-

As to what would happen to the world if all the people in the United States disappeared- the world power structure would simply shift. That would be tumultuous at first, but it would settle down to being China in charge pretty soon.

China would then use its influence to the maximum, trying to fit the rest of the world to its policies etc as countries in that position do, and everyone else would both resent that and use it to their advantage- currying favour with China to get one up on their competitor nations.

It really does not matter one whit who that dominant power is.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:34PM
DAJB at 6:26AM, July 27, 2009
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Lonnehart
I was reading a wikipedia article on so called “anti-Americanism” and got this idea in my head. Say America just left the world entirely. Maybe they managed to terraform Mars in secret and sent every citizen to that planet.
The rest of the world would still hate them. They'd just have to start calling them Martians instead!

Look how many petty dictatorships around the world still blame their domestic problems on a colonial past, conveniently ignoring the fact that, in many cases, they've been independent for the best part of a century. Having an outside power to blame diverts attention from a government's own inefficiencies and corruption.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:03PM
ozoneocean at 6:49AM, July 27, 2009
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DAJB
Having an outside power to blame diverts attention from a government's own inefficiencies and corruption.
There's a good reason for it though DAJB, colonialism was usually the cause of those current problems. After a country has suffered that, it can take a long to to repair. Look at Haiti for instance. The on going problems there ARE due to the colonial past. -They have to pay hundreds of millions to the French in reparations after they kicked them out. This took decades and decades, it forced the entire country into an eternal cycle of debit that they are stuck with even after the original debit was long paid off.
-Because once you're in debit you have to run up other debits to pay off your expenses etc.

Now that sort of thing happens with less easily quantifiable factors as well, like public infrastructure, education, a base of skilled and educated people in the population, a healthy economy, trading links, a good social structure, credit…
If those are destroyed or put back a stage it can be HELL to catch up with everyone else. Once you're behind in one or more of them it can be a downward spiral.

It all goes BACK to the idiots who caused the problem in the first place (the colonisers), and the current people are almost never able to dig themselves unaided out of that sink hole, simply because it IS a sink hole. They are right to blame the people who caused the problem, even when you have corrupt leaders or whatever, because the reason they're corrupt goes back to the colonial failure.

ie. Mugabe is a bad man, but Britain can't claim innocence as to Zimbabwe's current state just because he's the current idiot in power there now. Britain was very much the reason he IS in power there. ;)

————————————-

That's quite off topic, but then the topic is pretty flimsy…
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:34PM
DAJB at 7:48AM, July 27, 2009
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I can only half agree with you there, Ozone. Sure, there are some issues which can be directly traced back to colonial rule, but it's all too easy to blame someone else for your own problems and that's what a lot of the ex-colonial countries do. The reality is that many of those problems would have existed with or without their period of European control.

You mentioned Zimbabwe and that's an excellent case in point. Yes, Britain may have done terrible things when it ruled the country and, yes, terrible things were done during the apartheid years after UDI. But none of that changes the fact that Mugabe is directly and solely responsible for the country's current problems. He inherited a country which - for all its social injustices - could have been at least as successful as South Africa. Instead he has simply replaced one form of injustice with another, terrorised and murdered his own people, fostered corruption and run the economy into the ground. None of that is the fault of the British or the post-UDI governments. He would have been the same monster whenever he had come to power and irrespective of whatever government had preceded him.

Anyway, as you say, this is all rather off topic. Let's get back to sending the damn Yankees to Mars!
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:03PM
kyupol at 8:02AM, July 27, 2009
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I used to hate America when I was younger.

The propaganda of Filipino leftist groups influenced me to an extent. Yes what they say is true that “America” is a war freak country that loves to bomb bomb bomb and then exploit the resources of the 3rd world like the Philippines. Yes they're aware of the global banking conspiracy and the plot to sterilize the 3rd world through vaccines, gmo foods, chemtrails, etc. They love to portray America as the great Satan and the Philippine government as one of the many puppet-states of the USA.

But they've got it quite wrong. As they failed to see that Communism is a path to global enslavement and another wing on the same bird of prey. To come to think of it, communism has killed more than Nazi Germany. Communism is worse than the Nazis!!!

IT IS NOT AMERICA THAT IS BEHIND ALL THE EVIL THAT IS HAPPENING!!! DO YOU THINK THE AVERAGE AMERICAN WOULD WANT THAT?!? ITS THE GLOBALISTS! THE GLOBALISTS! THE GLOBALISTS!

The American constitution is actually the best constitution in the world (if you follow it like a bible and not like these fake “conservatives” and “liberals”).

America – the beacon of freedom and liberty on this planet – will indeed disappear if the New World Order thugs get their way.

That is why stand up for liberty. Reject the police state. And say YES TO LIBERTY.

Support people like Ron Paul and Alex Jones. Unless you wanna live in a world that is run like China.
NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:26PM
Abt_Nihil at 8:41AM, July 27, 2009
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I agree with ozoneocean - there would be a power shift, and I'm afraid both the period of shifting as well as the result would probably be worse than the status quo for someone who grew up on Western culture like me.

And I also agree any superpower will be met with opposition, but then again, almost anything will be opposed, no matter how powerful and influential. We've got over 6 billion people who might oppose anything at a whim. The question is not if something meets with opposition, but if that opposition is well justified. You can justifiable criticize many a thing about the US, but you won't have to look too hard to find countries who deserve more criticism.

Any actual country, state and administration will have to be measured by ideals, some of which depend on that country/state/administration (by way of culture and education), but which also have to be independent of these to some degree, so we can iron out the flaws of the status quo. I don't think claiming that the US (its political and social structure, its actual policy etc.) is flawed to some degree is anti-American. Rather, I believe that claiming that someone is anti-American if he believes the US to be flawed to some degree is a way of shutting someone up without having to be too smart to start a real argument.
last edited on July 14, 2011 10:44AM
bravo1102 at 11:29AM, July 27, 2009
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I agree with ozoneocean especially after the Chinese/Russian land rush to take over some of the richest real estate on the planet. The Mexicans and Canadians wouldn't do a darn thing and you'd see a lot of other little countries vanish. After all the USA's overwhelming military does account for some of the stability in the world. You'd have a bloodbath as the nations rush up to fill the power vaccuum. Whenever such a large shift in power there's a bloodbath.

Colonialism does far more than damge a rising nation financially/resources etc. It damages how people think. Post colonial perception counts for a lot. Any walk through an exhibit of the art of a post colonial would-be nation displays that quite graphically.

Want to see a microcasm of colonialism and post colonialism? Reconstruction after the ACW. It took longer than these new nations have been around to rebuild the South and that's with the infrastructure and the direct assistance of the northern states.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:33AM
timlight at 4:10PM, July 27, 2009
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Questions:
What is Americanism?
What is anti-Americanism?

For example, if person A (not American) will say that America is not united, will person B (American) yell at him/her and label person A as anti-American? It's possible.

You might find these articles useful:
Here's How America Looks to the World - washingtonpost.com
America's Fear of Outsiders - TIME

It seems that the cause of this Americanism and anti-Americanism is fear of America. :nervous:


Enjoy life!
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:30PM
ParkerFarker at 4:26AM, July 28, 2009
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kyupol
The American constitution is actually the best constitution in the world (if you follow it like a bible and not like these fake “conservatives” and “liberals”).

America – the beacon of freedom and liberty on this planet – will indeed disappear if the New World Order thugs get their way.

I am not anti-america or anything, but is this sarcasm?


“We are in the stickiest situation since Sticky the stick insect got stuck on a sticky bun.” - Blackadder
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:39PM
da_kasha at 5:39AM, July 28, 2009
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timlight
You might find these articles useful:
Here's How America Looks to the World - washingtonpost.com
America's Fear of Outsiders - TIME

Here's How America Looks to the World - “Just imagine how the U.S. Army would have fared in liberating my home continent, Europe, if the blinkered commissars of DHS had been calling the shots in 1944”

No they didn't, Russia won WW2. America got rich off of Europe's need to buy arms which I'm pretty sure they sold to BOTH sides. The source of my anti-Americanism partly comes from hearing streams of crap like this on a whole variety of topics and America's attitude to other countries.

But I don't think sending American's to Mars is the solution. I'd bet most of the people are ok it's the jerks in charge that's the problem. America needs a change of attitude, get off of its power high and to stop thinking they're the greatest thing since sliced bread!

last edited on July 14, 2011 12:09PM
bravo1102 at 6:15AM, July 28, 2009
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Nah, the USA is the greatest evil in the world. Of course we are, we always have been it's the arrogance that goes with thinking we're the Millenial light of the world because the USA was the first republic to get work in the modern era. We've lost our way once we started believing our own hype.

Another WWII revisionist who ignores what happened on the ground and in the air and on the seas. Stop reading the revisionists with an axe to grind or apologies to make. Western Europe is smaller than the massive territory of Russia. There was no way as many soldiers could have been stuffed into the ETO to throw themselves at the Germans as the Soviets were able to field and throw away.

Of course the Soviets tied down the Germans on the Eastern Front. But it was a combined effort. Even Germany helped defeat Germany. lol! Without Lend-lease the Allies would have lost WWII. Corporations who operate outside of one nation's border supplied both sides despite the efforts of the governments. They do in every war. They did in Napoleon's time too. It's like boxing. The same people supply both boxers with all they need. How the boxer uses it is what determines the outcome.

But why bother with the facts when we can blind ourselves with our politcal agendas. ;)

With the USA gone you'd see Eastern European and Chinese industry grow through the roof as it strained to supply all the world with tanks and planes like it has since 1945. A million AK-47s and 100,000 T-54/55/59s didn't grow on trees. Funny how all models of Russian trucks are also seen in overall Soviet Olive in motorpools across the world. :)

I read too much of this stuff.

last edited on July 14, 2011 11:33AM
ozoneocean at 7:12AM, July 28, 2009
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I don't think it's revisionist to say the Soviets won WW2. That's not a new perspective, simply another perspective. It's been that way since the conclusion of WW2.

Remember that after WW2 there were two giant power blocks: one with the U.S.S.R. as the power focus and one with the U.S. as the power focus. In the countries within those respective power blocks, they tended to share a similar perspective (U.S.S.R won or U.S. won), but even then their OWN contributions were also just as important (we won with the help off…).

Weather a person came from Hungary, Great Britain, Australia, China, or Yugoslavia they all had a different idea of who “won” the war. -Even in places like Italy and France the partisans and resistance believe they played an extremely important part.

The imagined consensus that the United states played the most significant part in the conflict is nothing but a product of U.S. popular culture, and as such is a frequent cause for resentment.

————
As to the actual facts of the matter, both you and I know that is an amazingly complex subject, not entirely related to people's perceptions… Whatever they are.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:34PM
Dark Pascual at 10:32AM, July 28, 2009
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I have come to the conclussion that people really don't hate Imperialism, just hate not to be the Empire.

Being non-American, I see USA in no different light than other Empires in History. They had their time of ascention, expansion, their peak, and you can argue that we are witnessing the beginning of it's decadence.

Besides, Imperialism is an Historical need…Even if (or when) United States loses all his influence and political/militar advantage, eventually another superpower will rise and set the bar for the scientific, social and political advances of human mindset.

You could argue that civilization can't advance without the existance of Empires…
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:07PM
kyupol at 12:27PM, July 28, 2009
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kyupol
The American constitution is actually the best constitution in the world (if you follow it like a bible and not like these fake “conservatives” and “liberals”).

America – the beacon of freedom and liberty on this planet – will indeed disappear if the New World Order thugs get their way.

I am not anti-america or anything, but is this sarcasm?



No.

I understand that America is under attack by the real terrorists.

Bush is right. The terrorists hate your freedom.

If not for people like Alex Jones and Ron Paul, I'd still hate America up to now.

NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:26PM
Product Placement at 2:27PM, July 28, 2009
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During the days of the Soviet union, most Europeans tended to dislike Russia far more then US. Russia was the giant superpower breathing down their necks at that time.

It's understandable that the US is the target for everyone's grief nowadays and once their time in the sun is over, people will start pointing fingers at the next A star nation.
Those were my two cents.
If you have any other questions, please deposit a quarter.
This space for rent.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:51PM
da_kasha at 5:15PM, July 28, 2009
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Dark Pascual
I have come to the conclussion that people really don't hate Imperialism, just hate not to be the Empire.

Being non-American, I see USA in no different light than other Empires in History. They had their time of ascention, expansion, their peak, and you can argue that we are witnessing the beginning of it's decadence.

This rings true for me - and I'm getting some flashbacks to reading Foundation now.

Before Russia and America I think it was England that was the super-power and I'm pretty sure the guys they kicked around, like all good evil empires do, hated them too. Once you have power you want to hold onto it and you start oppressing others - this leads to you becoming unpopular.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:09PM
bravo1102 at 5:34PM, July 28, 2009
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Product Placement
During the days of the Soviet union, most Europeans tended to dislike Russia far more then US. Russia was the giant superpower breathing down their necks at that time.

It's understandable that the US is the target for everyone's grief nowadays and once their time in the sun is over, people will start pointing fingers at the next A star nation.

That hatred of Russia by Europeans goes back to Peter the Great. Russia was HUGE and scary, shaggy and semi-barbaric. Some memories went as far back as the Rus who besieged Constantinople. Oh, the fear of the Russians is far older than the Soviet Union. Before them it was the Turk. Funny how the nations everyone loved to hate were once greedy rapacious and conquering everything in sight. Those damn Americans just force hambergers down your throat and export coca cola and TV shows. Then there's the Economic domination and the USA's tireless millenialism end-all, be-all superiority because the USA perfected the republic and invented freedom.

Realistically they're fairly harmless as far as nations go. Compare them to the Ottomans, the Saracens, or Tsarist Russia, or the Hapsburgs, they're mostly harmless. Now if they would just shut up about how wonderful their way of life is compared to everyone else. I find most Americans annoying and loud and very ignorant of their own history. We think we're so damn lucky to be Americans and we thumb our noses at everyone else saying how wonderful we are and that you're not. :P We've all known people like that and a nation that treats the rest of the world like that? Face it my fellow Americans we have a tendency to seem to condescend to everyone else. You've got to read US diplomatic dispatches from the 1950s-60s. Talk about condescension and arrogance!

And ozone for crying out loud; the Americans or the Soviets did not win World War II by themselves. They won it together! The Allies won World war II by a combined effort not any nation all by itself. Among the most successful and smoothly running alliances in history? Sometimes something is what it is.

Now stop complicating everything or I'll cut you with my Occam's razor! ;)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:33AM
ozoneocean at 10:46PM, July 28, 2009
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Product Placement
During the days of the Soviet union, most Europeans tended to dislike Russia far more then US. Russia was the giant superpower breathing down their necks at that time.
As I said, there were two main power blocks. The Western Europeans sided with the United States.

The term “superpower” as it's commonly thought of is a bit of a nonsense. What really made these countries “super” powers was the fact that they commanded, represented and were the ultimate focus and driving force for so many nations- a gestalt power. Hence; “Superpowers”. This situation was made possible by the situation of binary opposition that almost the entire globe was in at that time of two equal forces.
Such is no longer the case. The U.S. is no longer a “super” power. Merely the dominant power.
bravo1102
And ozone for crying out loud; the Americans or the Soviets did not win World War II by themselves.
Never once have I claimed this to be the case. I was speaking in terms of perceptions (as I indicated), and the way post WW2 these differed along the line of which block a person found themselves. ;)
——————–

You're very wrong of course to see the influence of the United States as benign, even compared to previous dominant powers. This again is a matter of perception- not the same for those within as those without. And no matter the hindsight, it's extremely difficult to achieve objectivity… but from within the culture you're critiquing, that's almost impossible.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:34PM
DAJB at 6:48AM, July 29, 2009
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Dark Pascual
I have come to the conclusion that people really don't hate Imperialism, just hate not to be the Empire.
There's definitely an element of truth in that. In many cases, it's a false hatred born of envy more than anything else. It's like claiming you hate everything about the cool kids at school when, really, you know you'd do almost anything to have even half their popularity!
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:03PM
bravo1102 at 7:20AM, July 29, 2009
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ozoneocean
You're very wrong of course to see the influence of the United States as benign, even compared to previous dominant powers. This again is a matter of perception- not the same for those within as those without. And no matter the hindsight, it's extremely difficult to achieve objectivity… but from within the culture you're critiquing, that's almost impossible.

I never said the USA was benign. It's just not as bad as the previous dominent powers. It's like DAJB said about the “cool kids” in school. The USA's influence is hardly benign when we go around telling the world in effect “Don't you wish you were an exceptional nation like the USA?”

Hardly benign. In fact my nation's arrogant millenial assumtions of its special place in the world could be worse than hordes of Turks or Mongols destroying cities. Putting someone to the sword and then ruling them ruthlessly is one thing, but constantly browbeating them with how great and special you are and not conquering them militarily but having their culture infultrate and subvert yours?

I like the power bloc idea of perception on who won WWII. We are all just as bad. The Monty defenders versus the Patton lovers are among my favorites. Then the Teutonophiles. Me? It was the most successful coalition in the history of warfare but in the end it always came down to the guy in the government issue shirt with a rifle in his hands.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:33AM
Dark Pascual at 8:14AM, July 29, 2009
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I sustain that USA is no different than any other Empire in History. Wich also means that future generations will look back to United States contributions to Mankind and value them as the same that now we study the Roman Empire, the British Empire and other superpowers and value their contributions. And probably the would do it better than us.

I'm not saying that USA is this super cool country that is better than mine. Living in Southamerica, I do know how tyranical could be the impossition of American authority sometimes. Hell, I sometimes rescent that US have somehow take the name of America just for themselves. All that is south of the border is also America, you know?

However, I also thinkg that if any other country would take over as the “New Empire”, thinks would not better nor worst.

USA is not really doing things differently than any other Empire, and they have made their big deals of contribution to what now see as a civilized rule. Much like Romans before and so on.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:07PM
El Cid at 4:51PM, July 30, 2009
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Dark Pascual
…Hell, I sometimes rescent that US have somehow take the name of America just for themselves. All that is south of the border is also America, you know?

How dare you use our name without authorization! You owe us royalties, big time dude!

If America imploded tomorrow I'm not sure who'd take over. The Chinese don't seem to want the job and I can't really think of anyone else who could truly fill the big “superpower” stompin' boots (not that China was such a great choice to begin with; seriously, get a navy you hacks!). I think the playing field would mostly just level off, and that would probably mean lots of really cool wars.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:20PM
ozoneocean at 9:37PM, July 30, 2009
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El Cid
not that China was such a great choice to begin with; seriously, get a navy you hacks!
China does indeed want the job, but they know they have to get it on their own terms. They don't want to make the same mistake as places like Japan and the EU were they tried to do it on America's terms and failed.
China can bide its time, they know how to be patient. Their history is loooooonnng, they don't expect anything quickly.
-Dominant positioning is NEVER allocated on merit. If that were the case, no one would get it. It's allocated by the country that is most powerful, by themselves. And afterwards they invent a mythology about how that's the natural state of things, how it was inevitable, how they deserve it, and why it's so good that they're there, and so on.

None of it is true, none of it is ever true, but all dominant countries do it and believe their own tosh, and quite a lot of the rest of the world does as well. We still think of ancient Greece as a great place, Rome as well, Britain still “knows” it was great for the world and so on.

For a navy, China is buying it from Russia, a bit at a time. As well as slowly making their own designs. But the idea of projecting power and controlling the world with navies is largely outdated anyway and China has always been a land power.

China knows the future is in information- satellites, global communication, space… And that's where they're investing. They're still behind on the infrastructure and technology, but they're getting there fast, and they've got the knowledge base already.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:34PM
Puff_Of_Smoke at 10:45PM, Aug. 21, 2009
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Us Canadians would be left with nothing to do. Our Economy would go nuts for awhile. There would likely be quite a few wars over the unused land. We'd probably miss you guys after awhile.
I
I have a gun. It's really powerful. Especially against living things.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:56PM
gullas at 4:34AM, Aug. 22, 2009
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If America just disapeared one day, it would have some serious consequences.
Because of the Gulf stream and other currents that are around America, the whole world's ocean current system would be a mess and many parts of the world would be inhabitable. If America never existed in the first place, for example the Pangaea would have been diffrent and probably more or less the whole world itself. And that's just the geographical influence that this part of the world has :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:39PM
Hawk at 12:55PM, Aug. 22, 2009
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It actually nice to get a non-political answer to this question… There are other ramifications besides who becomes the big dog, after all.

I'm thinking mainly of the products, economy, and culture that emanates from the United States. For instance, both Microsoft and Apple would vanish. I don't put it beyond some other countries to be able to step up and replace those operating systems, but I think the process wouldn't happen without some hiccups.

The world would probably do fine without Americas cars. But there are a lot of other things to think about. America exports nearly half of the products it creates, including semiconductors, telecommunications equipment, construction vehicles, chemicals, pharmaceuticals, aircraft, and more. The instant vanishing of America would almost certainly lead to some trouble filling the need for these commodities until other countries could begin to compensate.

One last bit that would happen is the fact that so many other companies have their debt tied into America. Proof of that was many other countries felt the hurt when America's economy took a dive.

I'm pretty sure that no matter how you look at it, the instant vanishing of America would be trouble. Even those America haters should probably hope it happens slowly. But I hope we get stick around.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:46PM
Faliat at 5:13AM, Sept. 3, 2009
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At least a huge chunk of America would be gone when the Yellowstone Supervolcano goes. The rest would probably be covered in heavy ash fall unless technology advances fast enough to be able to prevent maximum damage as well as predict an eruption so people can evacuate the worst hit areas.

Some of the ash would come over here and it would cause a massive lack of sunlight when it gets high up into the atmosphere. But the place that would be hit the worst would definitely be America.

And you know the worst thing?

It's overdue.

Call that jumped up metal rod a knife?
Watch mine go straight through a kevlar table, and if it dunt do the same to a certain gaixan's skull in my immediate vicinity after, I GET A F*****G REFUND! BUKKO, AH?!

- Rekkiy (NerveWire)
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:25PM

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